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Haselsh1
14-09-2009, 08:02
OK so this is pure fantasy but, how much would you pay...???

If you were in the market for a new vinyl playing turntable just how much do you think is sensible for such a device...?? As well as that, what would your new turntable be...?? I'm not asking to get the response I expect; the most expensive of its kind, I'm just asking to get a sensible feel for what everyday people would spend on a turntable/arm/cartridge. One other thing, it has to be brand new...!!!

I know what I am expecting as a response, I'd just like to see how many people agree with me...!

Alex_UK
14-09-2009, 09:11
As much as I could afford :)
1500-2000 would probably be what I would spend - I would find it hard to justify much more - but in reality I will be building around my Garrard 401 - which will hopefully beat anything in that price range!

But 3 "Best Buys" in this month's Hi Fi Choice... always loved the look of Michells - Gyro SE with RB250 1565, Funk V2 1390 or Townshend Rock 7 1720 - any of those look ok on paper.

shane
14-09-2009, 09:50
Having just spent a total of about 250 mounting the motor of an ancient Dual 701 DD on a lump of slate with a Formula IV, I reckon I'd have to pay several grand to make a significant improvement, which would then be out of all proportion to the rest of the system. So what would I spend on a new one? Well, I wouldn't....

pure sound
14-09-2009, 13:28
That Papst motor was very good. (Goldmund also used to use it in their 'Studio' model.) Did you stick with the original platter & psu? Any pics of the project?

REM
14-09-2009, 15:10
As much as I could afford :)
1500-2000 would probably be what I would spend - I would find it hard to justify much more - but in reality I will be building around my Garrard 401 - which will hopefully beat anything in that price range!

But 3 "Best Buys" in this month's Hi Fi Choice... always loved the look of Michells - Gyro SE with RB250 1565, Funk V2 1390 or Townshend Rock 7 1720 - any of those look ok on paper.

1.5-2k would get you a very nicely modded Technics and while I've not heard either the Funk or Rock I've yet to hear any Michell that floats my boat. The Garrard is more like a D/D with a solid punchy rythmic type of sound but I would think that it would take at least that sort of money to really do a 401 justice.

Regards

The Vinyl Adventure
14-09-2009, 15:35
i think that if i was in the market for a new turntable, that i wasnt wanting to spend any money doing up, i would set my self a budgt of 1500
this is based on a rough total of what i will have spent on my tt in parts - techie 125, psu 300, mat 90 arm + mount 450, cart 400
i have felt it easy to justify this expense!

i dont think i could justify much more than 2k
the hifi chice review was enlightening but it seemed that nothing really ticked all the boxes

would you considor spending 2k on a deck? if so you could buy a 1210 of dave with a good few very reasonable upgrades and it would turn up to you and not need any work on it what so ever! that is what i would do if i was in your shoes - but that is only based on my limited experience!

Beobloke
14-09-2009, 15:35
Assuming the OP means NEW, then I would need to set aside around 2k for the turntable that would be my choice.

The Vinyl Adventure
14-09-2009, 15:37
(of course you could put the turntable idea to one side and buy your self a nikon d700 :lolsign:)

Mike
14-09-2009, 15:42
If money were 'no object'... I'd have a damn good look at one of these with all the toys. :)

http://www.vpiindustries.com/table_hrx.htm

:smoking:

DSJR
14-09-2009, 16:06
Being moderately sensible, my turntable of choice these days would be a Notts Analogue Dias with either their 12" arm, a 12" Jelco or a 12" AO PU7 (I rather like the latter idea as I loved the PU3 upon which it's based). This deck sounds closer to what's "really" there than any I've heard in years and makes an SME 10 (slightly cheaper I think) look like a child's toy, certainly an over-priced one. The Dias isn't as fussy on siting as many others are, "you lot" always ignore the maker and that gives greater credence to my current choice ;)

Haselsh1
14-09-2009, 18:54
of course you could put the turntable idea to one side and buy your self a nikon d700 :lolsign:)


I've just bought a Hasselblad 500 ELM from 1978 with an A12 film back from 1977 and a Carl Zeiss 50mm wide angle from the eighties. All in all, very happy and millions of miles better than digital. I guess that's also why you lot insist on Garrards and the like.

Alex_UK
14-09-2009, 19:17
I know what I am expecting as a response, I'd just like to see how many people agree with me...!


So Shaun, were the responses what you expected, or do you need to get a few more before you put us out of our misery...?

shane
14-09-2009, 19:22
That Papst motor was very good. (Goldmund also used to use it in their 'Studio' model.) Did you stick with the original platter & psu? Any pics of the project?

I'm intending putting a write-up with pictures on Audio-Talk, but it means taking it to bits to show the innards, and it's sounding so good at the moment I'm loath to disturb it. There are still a few little tidy-up jobs to do, so next time I've got a day spare I'll have a go at it.

I used all the original electronics and the platter from the Dual. I tried the TT2 platter, which is about half the weight, but it lost all the drive and integrity the the Dual does so well. What it doesn't inherit from the Dual is the cramped and blurred soundstage or the total lack of depth and height.

Haselsh1
14-09-2009, 19:45
So Shaun, were the responses what you expected, or do you need to get a few more before you put us out of our misery...?


Thanks for the input everyone. The responses were varied but as I expected in that, whatever your price point, I doubt that there is any new turntable/arm/cart combination that is actually worth investing in. For sensible money it would appear that it is definitely best to get involved in a classic with some renovation.

My prejudice is for Nottingham Analogue but that's mainly because I used to sell them through my own business back in the nineties, however, I do consider them to be a stout investment, long term.

DSJR
14-09-2009, 20:47
I'm intending putting a write-up with pictures on Audio-Talk, but it means taking it to bits to show the innards, and it's sounding so good at the moment I'm loath to disturb it. There are still a few little tidy-up jobs to do, so next time I've got a day spare I'll have a go at it.

I used all the original electronics and the platter from the Dual. I tried the TT2 platter, which is about half the weight, but it lost all the drive and integrity the the Dual does so well. What it doesn't inherit from the Dual is the cramped and blurred soundstage or the total lack of depth and height.

Now Shane - have you listened to the 701 fully intact with proper counterweight? I'm *very* grateful indeed for the plinth and remains of the donor, but I understand that this sample had a damaged arm - the tuned counterweight and re-set bearings, together with freed-off suspension, does help a lot, even if it's no good for a DL103. The "glimmlampe" has no audible effect IMO, any "difference" being imaginary IMO..

I get great depth on my 701, easy to hear reverse absolute phase and the only main criticism is that better turntables have a "bigger" sound, the Dual keeping proportion but making everything a little "smaller." It's tons better than a Planar 3, which seems unbalanced and somehow "flat" by comparison.

So there :ner:

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0346smaller-1.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DualSeventhWave.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DualSupex.jpg

Marco
14-09-2009, 20:56
Hi Shane,


I'm intending putting a write-up with pictures on Audio-Talk...


Go right ahead, but don't forget about us here, too! ;)

It would be an excellent article for our D.I.Y section, so when the time comes please copy and paste it there for our delectation.

Marco.

DSJR
14-09-2009, 21:08
Yes please, i'd like to see what I'm missing ;)

shane
14-09-2009, 22:05
Sorry Dave, you're quite right. The arm on the Dual was extremely tired, with both the bearings and the counterweight best described as knackered, so it's probably unfair of me to criticize it. Fortunately the motor is in VGC, and a beautiful piece of engineering it is too.

Marco, will do. Might be a week or two though.

Johnboy
14-09-2009, 23:21
As much as I could afford :)
1500-2000 would probably be what I would spend - I would find it hard to justify much more - but in reality I will be building around my Garrard 401 - which will hopefully beat anything in that price range!

But 3 "Best Buys" in this month's Hi Fi Choice... always loved the look of Michells - Gyro SE with RB250 1565, Funk V2 1390 or Townshend Rock 7 1720 - any of those look ok on paper.


Hi Alex

Build your Garrard 401 and It will rock , the RB300 sound good on it also
I use it for rock and heavy music , if not the SME3012 for Jazz and Blues
top deck, below is mine with both arms,
thanks for looking,

John
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/Aussieone122/DSC04710.jpg

Clive
15-09-2009, 15:02
I'm getting one of these in a few days:

http://www.trans-fi.com/Salvation/Salvation1.jpg

It'll be interesting to hear what it's like vs my 301 on slate. I have high hopes....

http://www.trans-fi.com/turntables.htm

Marco
15-09-2009, 15:17
Marco, will do. Might be a week or two though.


No hurry, mate :)

Clive,

That's a sexy looking T/T! Belt-drive, I presume? Love the platter!! I've seen it before but can't remember exactly where. I think John (Thrunobulaxx) who used to post here used one on his D.I.Y deck... I'll see if I can find some pictures.

Oh, incidentally, we expect a full write-up in Strokes of Genius when you've fully assessed its performance ;)

Marco.

Clive
15-09-2009, 15:30
Marco, the platter is from a Bix which is belt drive but this TT is rim drive. It can be run from a Teres Versus but there are other (much less expensive) options that will hopefully prove equal to the Versus. The write-up will be done!

Marco
15-09-2009, 15:52
Ah, I see. Nice one, Clive - I look forward to it :)

Marco.

Mike
15-09-2009, 17:05
That's a sexy looking T/T! Belt-drive, I presume?

Get yer eyes washed ! :lol:

Marco
15-09-2009, 17:13
How do you tell from a brief glance of the picture Clive posted? There's no belt there, but I just presumed it wasn't connected. I'm not familiar with the turntable.

I should've guessed though that Clive wouldn't have downgraded from an idler to an elastic-band jobby :eyebrows:

Marco.

Mike
15-09-2009, 17:15
How do you tell from a brief glance of the picture Clive posted?

Coz you can plainly see the rim drive! :D

Clive
15-09-2009, 17:30
Belt-drive, I presume?

Given your presumption I expected something like "do you expect that heap of **** to sound any good?"

I can't see myself ever doing belts again. Idler or DD for me. I know that belts can be made to work well but it just seems like the wrong approach and very few decks with belts are worth listening to.

Marco
15-09-2009, 17:40
Coz you can plainly see the rim drive!

Maybe you can. I wasn't looking that closely! Besides, I probably wouldn't know what a 'rim drive' looked like if it jumped up and kissed me on the arse. I don't own one! :ner:

You're probably familiar with all things 'rimming' related, though, having been given a right royal one on a few occasions!!! :lol: :eyebrows:

Marco.

DSJR
15-09-2009, 17:43
There aren't that many direct drives worth listening to either, unless you can import the 1970's top models...

Marco
15-09-2009, 18:04
When T/Ts were T/Ts, Dave - and even 20 years before that! ;)

Marco.

DSJR
15-09-2009, 18:51
Some of the teachers at a school I work at were laughing about the retirement-planning leaflets in the staff-room. I worked out that I'd be older than they are now if I was able to complete a degree..

Barry
28-09-2009, 18:39
There aren't that many direct drives worth listening to either, unless you can import the 1970's top models...

Hi Guys,

What you really need is one of these:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/DENON/DP100M/DP100M.html .

Just rip off that arm and replace it with an SME V + cartridge of your choice!

Regards

bacobits
29-09-2009, 01:35
I just recently seen a Denon DP100 go for $6K I think it was on the
Audiogon site. I don't think I would pay that much for it.

Den

John
29-09-2009, 06:07
I will be going for the same deck as Clive when I can afford it Its a its a very impressive sounding deck. I actually thought the dc motor rim drive was ever so marginally better than the Verus and I remember being totally blown away by the Verus drive

The Grand Wazoo
29-09-2009, 06:32
Re. the Verus, spookily enough, John, look what I did last night:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3088&page=5

freefallrob
29-09-2009, 09:27
'IF' big if, but if I could afford it, i'd probably blow upto 2500-3000 quid on the turntable/arm/cartridge and upto 1000 on the phonostage, probably......

I reckon that would get me just about 'there' and you'd have to spend ALOT more to get noticeably better.

Don't ask me what it is because I haven't made my mind up yet:scratch:.

I do like these however, and having heard one, I think I could splash the cash.

http://www.inspirehifi.co.uk/page8/page8.html

Marco
29-09-2009, 19:55
Hi Alex,


1500-2000 would probably be what I would spend - I would find it hard to justify much more - but in reality I will be building around my Garrard 401 - which will hopefully beat anything in that price range!


How are you getting on with that? I've not heard much about your project lately... Did you get your Nagaoka cartridge? :)

Marco.

Beechwoods
29-09-2009, 20:52
I'm not going to say how much my top wack would be, but suffice to say I could easily knock a 0 off some of the numbers being quoted here! Perhaps I'm lucky in not having heard may really high-end systems... if I won the lottery I'd get myself an EMT just to hear how it sounded. Not much chance of finding one new though :lol:

kcc123
30-09-2009, 01:31
I am easy, if I had the money I would just buy myself an old turntable, the Pioneer P3a, also provided if I could find one.

Marco
30-09-2009, 08:21
Hi King,

How did you get on with your Shure cartridge - did you try it with a higher mass arm/headshell? :)

Marco.

Alex_UK
30-09-2009, 09:05
Hi Alex,



How are you getting on with that? I've not heard much about your project lately... Did you get your Nagaoka cartridge? :)

Marco.

Not much progressed yet Marco - I'm currently in dispute with the taxman, so until that is resolved I'm being a bit careful with the spons - plus been busy with work last couple of weeks - (enforced "duvet day" today though as I've picked up a nasty bug, or maybe food poisoning - messy!)

I've ordered a few bits and bobs - the main crticism of the 401 in current form is the ringing platter - got some damping rings, and hopefully one or two mats to try - part of the problem is that I know that slate is the way to go, but I would really like it in a piece of lovely wood, laquered an inch deep (like that Project in the show thread...) decisions, decisions. Must chase the taxman first though!

Marco
30-09-2009, 10:32
No worries, matey. I know how it is! Just keep us posted (even with small details) by updating your 'blog'/thread every so often. It's a journey that lots of people are interested in :)

Marco.

kcc123
30-09-2009, 23:54
Hi King,

How did you get on with your Shure cartridge - did you try it with a higher mass arm/headshell? :)

Marco.

Hi Macro,

Recently I haven’t got time to mess about with the Shure, however I did try to fit it onto one of those heavy Audio Technica Technihard headshells but I failed. The reason was that the body of the headshell is too short and the cartridge is too long. It seems that I do not have a suitable headshell for the Shure despite there are over two dozen of them in my possession. I think I probably would have to buy another one, but which one? :(

Marco
01-10-2009, 08:38
Hi King,

I know exactly what you mean. I had to cut the cartridge wires on my vintage Fidelity Research S/5 headshell to half their length and solder the cut ends directly to the headshell pins, allowing me to squeeze the cartridge right up towards the back of the bayonet housing to get it to fit and align correctly! It's a bloody big cartridge...

What you need is one of the longer than average NOS headshells like the Audio Technica LT-12. They're rare as hen's teeth, though. I tried searching for one for you but had no luck.

I did check my favourite (but pricey) vintage hi-fi site Audioscope, where I obtained my own LT-12, and came up with these that I reckon would work in terms of length, although you'd have to add a bit more mass to suit the Shure:

http://www.audioscope.net/audio-technica-slim-line-p-1288.html

http://www.audioscope.net/nagaoka-al-703-headshell-p-1353.html

Neither of those is cheap (the price reflecting their rarity), but I think they'd do the job. Personally, I'd be tempted to try the Nagaoka.

Also, one of the Japanese sites I use sometimes has got a few interesting ones (type 'headshell' into the search box and they'll come up):

http://www.topclassaudio.com/web/eng/used_product.jsp

Let me know what you think :)

Marco.

kcc123
01-10-2009, 09:38
Hi Macro,

I think I have one of those Nagaoka headshells, I will dig it out and try it with the Shure.

Marco
01-10-2009, 09:41
No worries, dude - let me know how you get on. Btw, it's "Marco" :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

kcc123
01-10-2009, 09:46
I am sorry, Marco!

Barry
01-10-2009, 10:35
This Marco (no not ours!) has about 3x more cartridges than me, but less than King.

http://www.topclassaudio.com/uploads/catalog/1222/Marco.jpg

One for each day of the month?

Regards

Marco
01-10-2009, 10:52
Awesome! That's why detachable headshell arms rule :eyebrows:

Marco.

pure sound
01-10-2009, 11:26
Indeed. Ironic that he's displaying them on an EMT whose headshell can't be readily substituted for anything but the neumann type. (unless he's had that 929 modified)

Ali Tait
01-10-2009, 12:00
Not much progressed yet Marco - I'm currently in dispute with the taxman, so until that is resolved I'm being a bit careful with the spons - plus been busy with work last couple of weeks - (enforced "duvet day" today though as I've picked up a nasty bug, or maybe food poisoning - messy!)

I've ordered a few bits and bobs - the main crticism of the 401 in current form is the ringing platter - got some damping rings, and hopefully one or two mats to try - part of the problem is that I know that slate is the way to go, but I would really like it in a piece of lovely wood, laquered an inch deep (like that Project in the show thread...) decisions, decisions. Must chase the taxman first though!

Alex,when you get round to it,why not have the plinth made from slate,then edge it with some nice wood? Would look nice IMHO.

kcc123
01-10-2009, 15:16
This Marco (no not ours!) has about 3x more cartridges than me, but less than King.

http://www.topclassaudio.com/uploads/catalog/1222/Marco.jpg

One for each day of the month?

Regards

Those cartridges are far more exotic and extravagant than mine, no comparison at all. Many people are going to be green with envy when they see them. :lol:

Marco
01-10-2009, 15:25
How about naming them left to right from the top row - any takers? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Barry
01-10-2009, 15:43
How about naming them left to right from the top row - any takers? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Is there a prize? (I know the answers anyway, but I won't let on to give others a chance.)

The Grand Wazoo
01-10-2009, 15:51
Just the ones that begin with the letter 'K' are worth more than my house!!!

Alex_UK
01-10-2009, 19:48
I definitely haven't got a box of "K's" like that! :lol:

hifi_dave
02-10-2009, 09:00
Bl**dy heck, he's got nearly as many esoteric cartridges as me, only this lot are worth far more than my collection :doh:

There are more FR's than you can shake a stick at.:smoking:

Luverly.

The Grand Wazoo
11-02-2013, 00:36
From The Grave

Rare Bird
11-02-2013, 06:14
How about naming them left to right from the top row - any takers? :eyebrows:

Marco.

A stab Top L-R

Row 1:
01-Denon - DL103S
02-Denon - DL103D
03-Sony - XL33
04-Sony - XL88
05-(Cant make it out) !
06- (Dunno)

Row 2:
01-Fidelity Research - FR7
02-Fidelity Research 702
03-Fidelity Research 201
04-Fidelity Research FR1
05-Fidelty Research another FR1

Row 3:
01-Kiseki - Lapis Lazuli
02-Kieski - Agaat Green
03-Kieski - Agaat Ruby
04-Kieski - Aggat Black
05-Kieski - Purple Heart
06-Kieski - Black Heart
07-Kieski - Blue

Row 4:
01-Koetsu - Onyx!
02-Koetsu - Rosewood
03-Koetsu - Black
04-Supex - SD900
05- (I'm Not Sure)
06-Decca - London Jublee

Row 5:
01-Decca - SPU Royal N
02-EMT - XSD 15
03-EMT - HSD 6
04- (Not sure looks like a Mission 773)

MartinT
11-02-2013, 07:10
In answer to the original question, it really depends on a lot of things such as available funds and whether I could go classic/modified or had to buy brand new. Also, is this the deck only? What about cartridge, phono amp etc?

Ok, so a maximum spend of about 5k, which is about what I have paid for my complete modified Technics SL-1200 system anyway.

The Grand Wazoo
11-02-2013, 08:54
Not the phono stage Martin. And nothing used.


.......what everyday people would spend on a turntable/arm/cartridge. One other thing, it has to be brand new...!!!

MartinT
11-02-2013, 09:03
I've covered both bases, Chris, with the same spend ;)

AlfaGTV
11-02-2013, 14:25
In response to the OP's question:
Well, it seems we're in the same part of the woods cost-wise..
I would try and fit within 2000 or thereabout.

Not really sure where i would put my money though, but beginning with the PU i'd opt for a Benz Micro Glider/Wood SL.
As for the arm, a Rega or their tweaked brethren would probably be the most cost effective solution without sacrificing too much real world performance.
The TT itself might be a Michell TecnoDec, Hanss Acoustics T-10 or perhaps one of the newer Rega's.

To me this where the sweetspot in turntable performance vs. cost lies...
But, after all, it's always a question of disposable income in relation the other parts of your kit.

Regards //Mike

f1eng
15-02-2013, 20:27
I paid about 8000 used about 20 years ago for the turntable I use now. I couldn't afford to do that any more, I retired :-(
So I have zero budget for a new turntable.

REXTON
15-02-2013, 20:50
i'd probably go for something made by EMT making sure it was in mint nick, so 10K and then that would be it for me. No more decks, honest :rolleyes: ;)