View Full Version : Timestep Power Supplies
Before anyone starts, this isn't a dig at DC. Now and then Kevin B (from KAB USA) and I correspond via email, and quite out of the blue I received this message from him yesterday, in reference to the above:
Hi.
I normally keep out of these things, but something came up that needs attention. I recently had a 'table brought to me that originally had a Timestep PS installed by Sound HiFi directly, according to the table's owner. What I found is important.
The ground lug for the time step was attached to the Main motor PCB mounting screw in the far right side. This is completely wrong. It should be attached to the PCB mounting screw under the actual ground lug in the front left.
By connecting it at any other screw, the current is now passing through the aluminium chassis, which is not only a poor conductor, it also creates all sorts of loop currents for the path is unpredictable.
I am not sure how the actual instructions read when you purchase one of these power supplies, but they may be wrong as well. You might pass this on to anyone still using these power supplies just to be sure they have them connected in the best possible way.
Kevin.
KAB Electro Acoustics
Preserving The Sounds
Of A Lifetime
www.kabusa.com
Therefore, if anyone is using a Timestep PSU with their Techy, you may wish to check that it has been correctly installed, as Kevin has outlined above, and not as he originally found.
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
20-06-2015, 18:37
I remember fitting my old timestep PSU in exactly the same way. It's amazing how far my deck has come on from then!
Wasn't this 'discussed' a long time ago? I'm sure I've seen it before a year or three ago.....
Wakefield Turntables
20-06-2015, 20:02
:eek: three years ago, bloody hell.:eek::eek:
Thankfully I bought a proper turntable in the first place so needn't worry about whether the right lug is attached to the shin-bone, or whatever.
Wasn't this 'discussed' a long time ago? I'm sure I've seen it before a year or three ago.....
Technics PSU threads are like the repeats on Dave, they play the same episodes hundreds of times over.
'Timestep ... Dubstep ... Mike New ... Paul Hynes .... Dave Cawley ... night and day differences ... pissed all over the stock item ... schematics ... right lug, left lug, shake it all about'
:D Yeah and at the stupendously high power draw of the 1210 those unpredictable :scratch: loop currents are really going to cause an issue in such a thin aluminium 1210 chassis :mental:
Wasn't this 'discussed' a long time ago? I'm sure I've seen it before a year or three ago.....
No idea, Dave. I'm just passing on some info, should it be of use to anyone. Like Andy, I've moved on since 'the dark old days', and now use a far superior PSU, designed by someone who actually knows what he's doing :D ;)
Marco.
Technics PSU threads are like the repeats on Dave, they play the same episodes hundreds of times over.
'Timestep ... Dubstep ... Mike New ... Paul Hynes .... Dave Cawley ... night and day differences ... pissed all over the stock item ... schematics ... right lug, left lug, shake it all about'
:D
prestonchipfryer
21-06-2015, 06:21
What's a PROPER turntable then? :scratch:
prestonchipfryer
21-06-2015, 06:22
Thankfully I bought a proper turntable in the first place so needn't worry about whether the right lug is attached to the shin-bone, or whatever.
What's a PROPER turntable then? :scratch:
A Roksan ;)
Joe's very much a zero-faff, 'plug & play' kinda guy. Each to his or her own.
Marco.
prestonchipfryer
21-06-2015, 06:44
A Roksan ;)
Joe's very much a zero-faff, 'plug & play' kinda guy.
Marco.
Oh! I see. Rubber band one then. :D
Aluminium is a good conductor.
It is widely used in aircraft harnesses, so I don't see what the issue is.
It may not be the optimum place to ground the PCB, but it will work.
Like I said, I'm simply passing on info; not endorsing it. There is a difference! ;)
However, if I had a Timestep PSU (designed by Alex Nikitin, not DC), I'd want the PCB grounded at the optimum place. I wouldn't settle for second best. And if you know where the best place is, then why wouldn't you put it there in the first place?
I think that was Kevin's point :)
Marco.
Like I said, I'm simply passing on info; not endorsing it. There is a difference! ;)
However, if I had a Timestep PSU (designed by Alex Nikitin), I'd want the PCB grounded at the optimum place. I wouldn't settle for second best. And if you know where the best place is, then why wouldn't you put it there in the first place?
But we don't know whether the lug was connected incorrectly, according the instructions or correctly, according to the instructions. We don't know whether the instructions follow Alex Nitkin's schematics, or not, and we don't know which method of connection is 'better', by whatever definition. That's a lot of imponderables!
Oh! I see. Rubber band one then. :D
You insulting my rubber;)
But we don't know whether the lug was connected incorrectly, according the instructions or correctly, according to the instructions. We don't know whether the instructions follow Alex Nitkin's schematics, or not, and we don't know which method of connection is 'better', by whatever definition. That's a lot of imponderables!
Joe,
KAB USA (Kevin Barrett) has been working with the Technics SL-1200, on an in-depth technical level, for about 20 years. He knows it inside out, better than anyone. He was also the first to design an off-board linear PSU for it, and offer various modifications for the Technics, LONG before Dave Cawley and Timestep came onto the scene.
Therefore, if he's telling me that the T/T he saw, fitted with a Timestep PSU, had its PCB grounded in a sub-optimal place, then I, for one, believe him - and so if I had a Timestep PSU and wasn't sure where the connection had been made, I'd be whipping the platter off to take a look inside, and if it wasn't right, I'd be changing it, as per Kevin's instructions.
It's as simple as that. Others may not be arsed, or consider it unnecessary, or disagree on where the 'optimal' place is for that connection, and that's absolutely fine. However, as Kevin has said, the information deserves to be put into the public domain, so that folks can make up their own minds - and that's precisely what I've done.
As an aside, why are you even getting involved in this discussion, as you have neither a Techincs T/T, nor know anything about this matter? Seems that your pedantic streak [arguing for argument's sake] is getting the better of you again! ;)
Marco.
Perhaps Joe is thinking of upgrading his deck to a Technics SL1200...? ;)
:lolsign:
More like being influenced too much by what's written on other 'forums', and as a result, sucked into certain agendas! ;)
Marco.
prestonchipfryer
21-06-2015, 09:31
You insulting my rubber;)
Perish the thought. :)
Most pointless thread of the year so far.
The bit about the rubber band Turntables is spot on though.:cool:
As long as he can use it with his 'doll' later [to prevent chaffing], it'll be ok :eyebrows:
Marco.
Most pointless thread of the year so far.
Pointless how? Should I have just ignored the info that Kevin passed onto me? What if sharing it results in a sonic improvement for someone after they've tried it?
It's only 'pointless' in your daft head! ;)
Marco.
prestonchipfryer
21-06-2015, 09:37
Maybe a picture of the correct earth point could be posted here. I'm sure it would of use.
Clive197
21-06-2015, 09:39
Maybe a picture of the correct earth point could be posted here. I'm sure it would of use.
Now that's a genuinely good idea.
Indeed, although I'm sure it's been posted before. If someone can be arsed searching the archives, I'm sure they'd find it :)
Marco.
As long as he can use it with his 'doll' later [to prevent chaffing], it'll be ok :eyebrows:
Marco.
she has a puncture
Again? You're being too rough! :D
Marco.
Indeed, although I'm sure it's been posted before. If someone can be arsed searching the archives, I'm sure they'd find it :)
Marco.
Maybe you should have done that in the first place?:)
Why? I don't have a Timestep PSU, so have no real interest in the matter, other than as an observer. I'm simply passing on info. How many times do I have to say that before it penetrates?
Marco.
Maybe another couple of times :)
For the thickest of heads? Yeah, seems like it! :eyebrows:
Marco.
I'll just stick to my (now) trio of Duals, belt (601), idler (1214) and direct drive (701). They're pretty damned good as they are and don't NEED pimping up to sound any good, 'cos they're there already (well, the 601 and 701 are ;)) :lol:
Joe,
KAB USA (Kevin Barrett) has been working with the Technics SL-1200, on an in-depth technical level, for about 20 years. He knows it inside out, better than anyone. He was also the first to design an off-board linear PSU for it, and offer various modifications for the Technics, LONG before Dave Cawley and Timestep came onto the scene.
Therefore, if he's telling me that the T/T he saw, fitted with a Timestep PSU, had its PCB grounded in a sub-optimal place, then I, for one, believe him - and so if I had a Timestep PSU and wasn't sure where the connection had been made, I'd be whipping the platter off to take a look inside, and if it wasn't right, I'd be changing it, as per Kevin's instructions.
It's as simple as that. Others may not be arsed, or consider it unnecessary, or disagree on where the 'optimal' place is for that connection, and that's absolutely fine. However, as Kevin has said, the information deserves to be put into the public domain, so that folks can make up their own minds - and that's precisely what I've done.
As an aside, why are you even getting involved in this discussion, as you have neither a Techincs T/T, nor know anything this matter? Seems that your pedantic streak [arguing for argument's sake] is getting the better of you again! ;)
Marco.
Manufacturer A is criticising the work of manufacturer B on the basis of one unit sent to him by a customer. We have no way of knowing whether the information supplied to manufacturer A by the customer is correct, nor do we know whether the 'sub-optimal' wiring identified by manufacturer A was a mistake in construction by manufacturer B, or a deliberate choice by the circuit designer. Seems to me (especially given that manufacturer B has no right of reply), that there's insufficient evidence either way, unless Alex Nitikin pops up and confirms whether the Timestep wiring was a deliberate design choice, and if so, why it was chosen.
As for me, as you say I have no direct interest in this (but then neither do you), so I'm bowing out, as I've got a dissertation to write and a garden to weed.
As for me, as you say I have no direct interest in this (but then neither do you), so I'm bowing out, as I've got a dissertation to write and a garden to weed.
Yes, I do. I own a Technics T/T and am interested in the subject of how it is modified, whereas you (for reasons best known to yourself) seem intent on butting in and arguing about something that's got nothing to do with you. We've discussed this matter before, and you know how it ended the last time ;)
What you say is correct (although doesn't negate what I've written). However, this exercise is simply about passing on information, for others to use as they wish - no more, no less. Hopefully, that fact will now now have [finally] sunk in.
Enjoy your gardening! :)
Marco.
I'll just stick to my (now) trio of Duals, belt (601), idler (1214) and direct drive (701). They're pretty damned good as they are and don't NEED pimping up to sound any good, 'cos they're there already (well, the 601 and 701 are ;)) :lol:
They clearly do not have Timestep PSU's then.:eek::)
JazzBones
21-06-2015, 14:29
No idea, Dave. I'm just passing on some info, should it be of use to anyone. Like Andy, I've moved on since 'the dark old days', and now use a far superior PSU, designed by someone who actually knows what he's doing :D ;)
Marco.
Actually, the highlighted part of your post does tell me that your bias has come to fore in only post #8 but but I have accepted your thinking on this from way back. To clarify the issue, DC in his instruction sheet does indicate that the earth tag be secured top right of PCB, I quote from my instructions received, No.11 Remove the top right hand PCB screw, fit the solder tag with blue wire attached as shown here". ie: top right of PCB. With my two earlier TS psu basic then HE I followed DC's instructions but switched to the bottom left tag earth screw as much discussed on AoS, frankly, I did not hear any difference in performance but that is what the wise ones on AoS said you had to do! I now have the Timestep T-01PSU fitted, and I chose to secure the earth tab at bottom left of the PCB as advocated on AoS and because its clearly marked as an earth point.
One thing you may not be aware of is that my TS T-01PSU has the facility to power TWO Techies from the one unit, so that if I wanted to dedicate one deck to stereo MC cartridge and the other to Mono function it is only a matter of me selecting the on/off switch for either deck. I would only have to upgrade the bearing and platter on the second deck and away I go. No payout for another offboard psu.
I did consider the Paul Hynes route but when I looked at the complexities of wiring involved in installation and not having a degree in higher electronics I opted for what I've got and have lived with it happily ever after. Plus the overall cost, to me, was less than having to pay a qualified third party to do the deed plus time delay. Our very own REXTON will attest to the danger of DIY with the PH psu as he 'fucked up' big time when going this route... I do wonder what the finally cost, in total, must have been, will we ever know?
Did Kevin B want you to go public, via this forum, with his damning of another's competing work?
Marco, hatred for another should not last forever.
I may have ruffled feathers here, not my intention, so I shall take this opportunity to walk away from The Artofsound as a satisfied user of Timestep PSU. I don't regret the experience, thanks all. Ron
Hi Ron,
As ever, good to hear from you :)
No problem with anything you've written, as I know you're a happy Timestep user. No need to walk away from anything either. Your opinions are always welcome.
Like I've said umpteen times now, I'm simply passing on some information - and yes, I asked Kevin's permission before disclosing the contents of his email, so he knows all about it. Do bear in mind, however, that his remarks are simply to do with wiring. He has made no comment on the performance of the Timestep PSU, so he is "damning" nothing.
As ever, we'll have to 'agree to disagree' on our respective opinions of Mr Cawley [did you miss the fact that it was Alex Nikitin, not DC, who designed the Timestep PSU?]
Had I experienced what you have from him, and not what he's really about, my opinion of him would likely be the same as yours. Unfortunately (or rather fortunately, as I see it) I know what makes him tick. Hatred? No, I have no real hatred for DC. That is much too strong an emotion. However, I do dislike the man, and have very good reasons for doing so.
Anyone who can show such scant disregard for ripping off someone else's designs is fundamentally not a nice person (and I loathe dishonest people). There is plenty more I could say about him (all genuine and verifiable), but this is not the time or place.
Anyway, folks are free to wire PSUs for their Techies as they wish. If Kevin has anything else he wishes to pass on, I will post it on his behalf later. Right now, we're too busy spoiling my dad for Father's Day, eating and having a good time, to be concerned with this stuff! :cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
21-06-2015, 18:19
I did consider the Paul Hynes route but when I looked at the complexities of wiring involved in installation and not having a degree in higher electronics I opted for what I've got and have lived with it happily ever after. Plus the overall cost, to me, was less than having to pay a qualified third party to do the deed plus time delay. Our very own REXTON will attest to the danger of DIY with the PH psu as he 'fucked up' big time when going this route... I do wonder what the finally cost, in total, must have been, will we ever know?
The total cost of the "fuck up" was ~£90. I had to pay for a new PCB and the postage (to send & return) , Paul actually did the work for FREE. The biggest cost was time. I ended up buying a Alphason Sonata TT to put me on whilst I waited, this cost £150. I enjoyed the deck and sold it for a slight profit, ~£10, a fantastic return on my investment :lol:. TBF the Timestep PSU is extremely easy to fit and worked well whilst I had it but was easily outperformed by Paul's PSU. Right, this is my last post on the subject. I just wanted to answer Ron's question.
Audio Al
21-06-2015, 18:34
I have a Timestep PS HE low noise model
I can touch it and have touched it and I am still alive :eek:
Seems 2 work good on my 1210
Should I be concerned :hmm:
This just in from Kevin:
All I will say is aluminum is not a good conductor, and most importantly, good engineering practice is never to run current through a chassis. That’s what star grounding ensures.
And that last post on AOS still baffles me because he is confirming what I just said. He too chose the top left screw because it is actually labeled as earth! That was my whole point.
You might point that out.
Because regardless of whether you immediately hear a difference or not, peace of mind knowing you have it right is often just a beneficial.
Anyway, thanks for letting folks know.
I am sure it will be helpful to some.
Kevin
Indeed. The 'last post' Kevin is referring to, incidentally, is Ron's.
The point being that why wasn't the top-left screw (actually labelled as earth) stated as being the grounding point, in the Timestep PSU fitting instructions (rather than on the opposite side), when that is clearly where the wire should be connected?
If the manufacturer can't even get that right, then it doesn't exactly inspire much confidence in the rest of his abilities.
Marco.
TBF the Timestep PSU is extremely easy to fit and worked well whilst I had it but was easily outperformed by Paul's PSU.
+1. Trouble is, I had the 'audacity' to report that fact on the forum, which of course Mr Cawley didn't like one bit (gross understatement), and that is one of the reasons why we fell out - and also why I have used Paul Hynes PSUs ever since, which quite frankly, are in a different league, both sonically and electrically.
Marco.
sq225917
21-06-2015, 19:19
Frankly it'll make fuck all difference where on the chassis the trimestep psu is earthed, one bit of bare metal is as good as the next, once the psu is externalised, as long as it's not onto part of the motor case or other source of higher frequency signal.
In all honesty I'd rather take a 'less than notionally optimal 'earth bond point than sit a smps, like the kab one, in my hifi rack. I'd love to see how these two measure in the hf, one with a monolithic voltage reg known to have falling hf PSRR and the other with a smps at its Heart.
Hi Simon,
I guess that Kevin and you will have to agree to disagree on the issue of 'It'll make fuck all difference'.
His concern, however, appears simply to be one of good engineering practice. I'm unable to comment myself on the matter, as the Paul Hynes PSU I use was installed optimally in the first place, as indeed were the fitting instructions complete with the correct information.
However, regardless of if it makes 'fuck all difference' or not, why would the instructions supplied with a manufacturer's PSU not indicate to ground the T/T at the point on the PCB, clearly marked as 'Earth'?
I'm all for 'lateral thinking', and being a bit different, but even for me, that takes the biscuit! ;)
Marco.
I have a Timestep PS HE low noise model
I can touch it and have touched it and I am still alive :eek:
Seems 2 work good on my 1210
Should I be concerned :hmm:
No need to worry as l can confirm you had a heartbeat when we attended the ( successful boot fair today..)
Mods please close this thread.
Mods please close this thread.
What's it to you, Andy? With respect, it's not you who decides when threads are closed or not. This one will remain open, as mosts others do, until the discussion dies a natural death :)
Marco.
What's it to you, Andy? With respect, it's not you who decides when threads are closed or not. This one will remain open, as mosts others do, until the discussion dies a natural death :)
Marco.
It died on the on the original post mate.
In your opinion, perhaps, now leave it there, ta.
Marco.
In your opinion, perhaps, now leave it there, ta.
Marco.
X2 Please see post 48.:ner: Love you.:)
Thebiglebowski
21-06-2015, 22:32
Is your mate a competitor of Dave Crawley?
He's not my mate. As for the rest, I think you know the answer already.
Marco.
What is your favourite Doors album Marco?:)
sq225917
22-06-2015, 00:15
That's the trouble with these technics decks. They're just so fiddly... ;-)
WOStantonCS100
22-06-2015, 01:08
Aluminium is a good conductor.
It is widely used in aircraft harnesses, so I don't see what the issue is.
It may not be the optimum place to ground the PCB, but it will work.
I have to disagree on this with you and agree with Kevin... because, my multimeter confirms what Kevin says. We're not talking about raw aluminum. The chassis of the 1200 (most likely in part due to the coating) is not at all a very good conductor. When testing for short, I get zilch, even with the probes a mm apart.
On the other hand, the stock platter's edge (not the black part between the strobe dots) conducts current like a champ.
My advice mirrors Kevin's. Hook it up right to begin with.
Is there a coating where the thread of the PCB mounting screw makes contact with the aluminium chassis?
If it did not conduct electricity, don't you think that there would have been many complaints about Timestep PSU equipped Techies not working?
Your measurements will depend on where and how you take them. Take them on the outside, on the coated surface and they will be different to the measurement taken where there is no coating.
If the aluminium chassis does not conduct electricity, then why have Technics grounded the arm to the chassis under one of the pitch slider screws?
WOStantonCS100
22-06-2015, 02:20
Is there a coating where the thread of the PCB mounting screw makes contact with the aluminium chassis?
If it did not conduct electricity, don't you think that there would have been many complaints about Timestep PSU equipped Techies not working?
Your measurements will depend on where and how you take them. Take them on the outside, on the coated surface and they will be different to the measurement taken where there is no coating.
If the aluminium chassis does not conduct electricity, then why have Technics grounded the arm to the chassis under one of the pitch slider screws?
Good questions.
However, if I'm not mistaken, it isn't the chassis they are grounding the arm to at the pitch slider; but, the ground point on the pitch slider PCB. I could be mistaken; so, someone correct me if I'm wrong. The pitch slider is part of the circuit (when not unplugged) despite being a "separate" PCB.
EDIT: The pitch slider housing is in the circuit of the pitch slider/fader PCB. A picture/schematic would really be helpful at this point. Too lazy at the moment to go find one. :lol:
I recently had an issue which brought this to light. I was getting humming with my T3 Pro arm mounted to an Origin Live armboard. I had to use a wire to earth the arm/armboard to the pitch slider... which meant that, on it's own, it was not grounding through the chassis.
Unless you removed some paint, a wire would be necessary.
WOStantonCS100
22-06-2015, 05:46
Unless you removed some paint, a wire would be necessary.
...same problem with an unpainted SME armboard.
Anyway, if you don't want to wait for me to post pics, pull your deck apart and take a good look at the circuit (the PCB traces of all boards) and wiring and ground paths or, simpler, get a schematic and have a look see. A lot of it makes sense just by looking at it.
Mike_New
04-07-2015, 02:09
Hi Folks,
I have come to this thread somewhat late, however having read all the observations about how it does not matter
where the earth return is fitted or what it does or where it does it, I have come to the conclusion that for most people it does indeed not matter for I am sure they would not notice the difference anyway judging from many of the totally uninformed comments.
Kevin is correct in his observations.
I first drew attention to this stupid situation of the incorrectly positioned earth return wire about 3 -4 years ago and it was informatively discussed on a number of threads here. including the thread on my Bearing.
I first noticed the problem on a detailed image of my bearing and PCB installed by an early user and flagged the problem immediately.
Martin Taylor confirmed the situation soon after.
If you are going to pay money for an external power supply; even a basic one such as the Timestep then at least the 0V return should be connected in the correct loaction.
The top RH connection to the PCB is totally wrong. There is no copper-track connection to the 0V at this point, and there never has been!!
The correct location is at the bottom LH self-tap screw where there is also a common connection to the chassis
I pointed this out to DC a long time ago but was politely told to get stuffed as I did not know anything about electronics compared to him OMG.
and he refused to correct his installation notes for the PS that's Davo for you.
For those who have stated that metal is metal and that alluminium is a good conductor I would suggest they do a little study of basic metalurgy in regard to the structure of die cast alluminium and its relative noise generation, resistance and porosity.
Thanks for the info, Mike! :thumbsup:
Marco.
This is bloody points scoring. Back in my day it was a 'competition' to see who could set up a Linn LP12 best, or even more mundane, who could solder a bloody 4mm banana plug best and neatest.
FFS fellas, you needed to scrape paint away from the LP12 sub-chassis earthing point to get a good connection. If there's no '0' volt point on that screw it shouldn't matter as long as the connection area is free of paint (ever heard of ground planes fellas? - maybe this doesn't apply here!!!!)
FFS again! Back in the day several years ago, the ONLY area of concern for me regarding the Timestep supply was it's cost compared to probably parts cost. This was years ago and LONG before I learned about 'intellectual property' as explained to me by Paul Hynes, who's supplies cost rather a lot more I believe. This is a limited market, with probably a very few hundred takers of techie upgrades.
Has anyone tried this earth wire in both places (paint suitably removed first for fairness) and actually MEASURED a difference between them, let alone 'heard?'
I'm really sorry chaps, but intellectual one-upmanship is one thing I cannot abide, being perpetrator and victim myself at different times. Techies now are becoming silly money and are no longer the bargains they were a few years ago when all this modding started. You could buy a 'real' turntable now for the thousands it costs to buy a good sample and 'do up' a 1210mk2>
I'm really sorry chaps, but intellectual one-upmanship is one thing I cannot abide, being perpetrator and victim myself at different times.
Whenever I read one of your posts, Dave, for some reason the Magazine song 'Shot By Both Sides' starts playing in my head.
You could buy a 'real' turntable now for the thousands it costs to buy a good sample and 'do up' a 1210mk2>
Not that old chestnut again, Dave. Since we're doing 'FFSs', lol... FFS, change the record, FFS!! :ner:
I've dealt with that issue 100s of times on here, and explained *exactly* why judiciously modified Techies (costing £1000s) are for some still a very valid option. How many times must I address the matter before it finally sinks in? :doh:
Do you actually LISTEN, or just ignore the points I've made, countless times here, and continue to spout this stuff regardless? With your harping on all the time about the same thing, I suspect the latter.
Marco.
Since we're discussing turntables, it should really be FFSS.
Indeed, FFSS! I'm gonna put that as Dave's new signature... :D
Marco.
walpurgis
04-07-2015, 10:29
Indeed, FFSS! I'm gonna put that as Dave's new signature... :D
Marco.
:lol:
Not that old chestnut again, Dave. Since we're doing 'FFSs', lol... FFS, change the record, FFS!! :ner:
I've dealt with that issue 100s of times on here, and explained *exactly* why judiciously modified Techies (costing £1000s) are for some still a very valid option. How many times must I address the matter before it finally sinks in? :doh:
Do you actually LISTEN, or just ignore the points I've made, countless times here, and continue to spout this stuff regardless? With your harping on all the time about the same thing, I suspect the latter.
Marco.
I do listen and don't disregard anything you say Marco. But my points were these - When you bought your first techie, it was a very few hundred quid. You saw 'potential' that technics didn't pursue in this model line-up (but did I believe in the SP10 series, although it's a few years since I last heard or used one) and proceeded to spend a large amount of money turning your deck into something different from original. Nothing wrong with this at all, it's fun if you can afford to do this, but in more recent times, the cost of good, low mileage techie 1200mk2> decks has gone through the roof. Maybe you can buy a beat up one cheaply still and chuck the moving parts away when 'upgrading' them and for this I apologise if I've come over too strong on this.
I dunno, why take a Ford Focus or Mondeo and freak it out so it out-performs a sporty BMW or Merc? They've done it in the past and buyers have still gone for the German equivalents at vastly higher price. Ford have done this countless times I think, but it's still the more expensive, cachet-laden products that sell and this is what you've done with your new fancy set of wheels..
My comments regarding a 'real turntable' are of course, tongue in cheek :lol: I know how good a basic, pre quartz SL150/1500 can be, but I also know how stable a platform for records some of the rim/cord-drive heavyweights are too, some of the 'affordable' ones costing around the same as you've spent on your own Technics.
Do you see where I'm coming from, or am I talking nonsense (again)? It's just that this entire thread seems to be given over to the location of an 'earth tag.' Maybe it was placed in a less logical place, but is this worth pages and pages of discussion when no harm has come to the deck or its owner?
On the broader point of modding Technics turntables, you and Marco have differing opinions about the 'worth' of such an exercise, so you'll have to agree to differ, or argue the toss ad infinitum. On the narrower point of earth tags, this is a dispute for those who understand electricity and metallurgy, so I'll refrain from comment.
Dave, I have no problem with anything you've written.
The point is, however, that if you want a turntable that delivers the unique type of sound quality/musical presentation of a judiciously modified Technics (such as I've got), then NOTHING else will do.. The fact is, you aren't going to get that by buying any other turntable, "proper" or not.
No SP10, No NAS, no anything else, is EVER going to sound like a modified Technics. It's really *that* simple. It's like telling someone who wants nothing else but an LP12 to settle instead for a Pink Triangle.
Therefore, if I (or anyone else) can afford to go down the route of judiciously modifying an SL-1210, and we want something unique and bespoke, not 'off the shelf', as a result, why shouldn't we have it?
You might think it's a waste of money, don't rate the result (if you've heard one), or whatever, and that's fine. But that doesn't make our contrary opinions or choices 'daft' or invalid - and it's that which I'm asking to accept, so that this matter isn't (pointlessly) brought up again in future.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
04-07-2015, 12:59
For those who have stated that metal is metal and that alluminium is a good conductor I would suggest they do a little study of basic metalurgy in regard to the structure of die cast alluminium and its relative noise generation, resistance and porosity.
The conductivity of pure aluminium is 2.862E-08 ohm/m. What do you call good? :scratch:
Hi Folks,
I have come to this thread somewhat late, however having read all the observations about how it does not matter
where the earth return is fitted or what it does or where it does it, I have come to the conclusion that for most people it does indeed not matter for I am sure they would not notice the difference anyway judging from many of the totally uninformed comments.
Kevin is correct in his observations.
I first drew attention to this stupid situation of the incorrectly positioned earth return wire about 3 -4 years ago and it was informatively discussed on a number of threads here. including the thread on my Bearing.
I first noticed the problem on a detailed image of my bearing and PCB installed by an early user and flagged the problem immediately.
Martin Taylor confirmed the situation soon after.
If you are going to pay money for an external power supply; even a basic one such as the Timestep then at least the 0V return should be connected in the correct loaction.
The top RH connection to the PCB is totally wrong. There is no copper-track connection to the 0V at this point, and there never has been!!
The correct location is at the bottom LH self-tap screw where there is also a common connection to the chassis
I pointed this out to DC a long time ago but was politely told to get stuffed as I did not know anything about electronics compared to him OMG.
and he refused to correct his installation notes for the PS that's Davo for you.
For those who have stated that metal is metal and that alluminium is a good conductor I would suggest they do a little study of basic metalurgy in regard to the structure of die cast alluminium and its relative noise generation, resistance and porosity.
Having done a resistance measurement between the earth tag PCB mounting screw, and the top right PCB mounting screw I really don't see what the argument is about anymore.
I measured it at 0.0Ω i.e. small enough not to worry about.
Ok, my multimeter is a hobby level tool, but seriously, what difference will such a low resistance make. It will be in the region of milliohms.
It's not directly linked to the signal, only the motor control circuit.
It's small enough that I would not lose any sleep over the position of the earth lead.
Ammonite Audio
04-07-2015, 13:28
Speaking as someone who originally highlighted the earth tag position anomaly, I now wonder how much this issue really matters. There's nothing to stop a Timestep owner from shifting the earth wire to the PCB's main earth point should they wish; in the meantime they still have something much better than the standard Technics PSU arrangement. Yes, there are other and potentially better PSU alternatives, but as stated earlier in this thread, there's nothing unsafe going on here, and I don't feel that anybody has been conned. It's just a record player, not life and death.
And, although I have certainly crossed swords with Dave Cawley in the past, I do think he deserves credit for properly starting the Technics upgrade thing in the UK. I have done business with Dave and will happily do so again.
Having done a resistance measurement between the earth tag PCB mounting screw, and the top right PCB mounting screw I really don't see what the argument is about anymore.
I measured it at 0.0Ω i.e. small enough not to worry about.
Ok, my multimeter is a hobby level tool, but seriously, what difference will such a low resistance make. It will be in the region of milliohms.
It's not directly linked to the signal, only the motor control circuit.
It's small enough that I would not lose any sleep over the position of the earth lead.
If only you had conducted this experiment Eight pages ago Kevin !
Where is the fun in that? :eyebrows:
Hi Hugo,
There's nothing to stop a Timestep owner from shifting the earth wire to the PCB's main earth point should they wish...
Indeed, although many folks simply won't want to go near the 'gubbins' of any of their kit - and as mere end users of the products, why should they have to? The point is however, why wasn't the earth wire connected to the PCB's main earth point in the first place?
One would've thought that was the obvious place to put it. No 'grey areas' necessary!
And, although I have certainly crossed swords with Dave Cawley in the past...
Yes, and no doubt you'll remember how he reacted when, after you demonstrated (in my system) how much better the Paul Hynes SR3 PSU was compared with the Timestep, and I had the 'audacity' to report it on AoS, and then replace the Timestep with an SR5!!
Rational or 'receptive to healthy competition' he was not... :eek: ;)
Marco.
Mike_New
08-07-2015, 00:48
The conductivity of pure aluminium is 2.862E-08 ohm/m. What do you call good? :scratch:
If you had read my post carefully you would have noted that I stated die cast alluminium and potential porosity of same;
not pure extruded alluminium as is used in special electrical wiring where weight is a consideration.
Also the alluminium chassis is coated with a layer of paint which further adds to any potential return resistance.
The connection point of the 0V wire is technically incorrect and always has been as KAB rightly observe.
In one instance about two years ago, I recieved a private email from a nice guy who did not want to make a fuss here on AoS, who asked for help.
He had installed one of these power supplies according to the instructions and was suffering intermittent speed control and apparent noise.
When I explained what to do the problem was solved.
So you see is it not better to do it correctly according to conventional wisdom and electronic engineering theory rather than to spend so much effort, (as some have in this thread) trying to prove that it does not matter.
So you see is it not better to do it correctly according to conventional wisdom and electronic engineering theory rather than to spend so much effort, (as some have in this thread) trying to prove that it does not matter.
It was hardly a lot of effort to remove the platter and take the resistance measurement.
My 0V connection is underneath the earth tag, as this seemed to make sense to me. However, engineering theory would suggest to me that there is little paint left on the inside of a hole, where a thread has been cut. As long as contact is made between the 0V lead and the screws, there should be little difference between the two positions.
Oldpinkman
08-07-2015, 05:14
Mike. Die-cast aluminium is aluminium not an alloy. Kevins measurement suggests it's conductivity is close to the figure I quoted, and his note about paint not being on the thread explains why your comment is like saying copper is a poor conductor if measured across the pvc sleeve of a cable instead of stripping the sleeve off the end.
What kind of Aluminium? ;)
http://eddy-current.com/conductivity-of-metals-sorted-by-resistivity/
Coating or possible paint issues aside, this really is a non-issue being blown out of all proportion :mental:
I'm staying out of the technical side of the debate, as I'm not qualified to comment, but surely this real experience of someone is valid, and shows that there is a right and a wrong way to do the job:
In one instance about two years ago, I recieved a private email from a nice guy who did not want to make a fuss here on AoS, who asked for help. He had installed one of these power supplies according to the instructions and was suffering intermittent speed control and apparent noise. When I explained what to do the problem was solved.
It's a bit of a coincidence that the guy's issues were solved by following Mike's advice, no? One wonders how many others have experienced similar issues with Timestep PSUs, but said nothing, and put it down to something else?
Marco.
Mike_New
08-07-2015, 07:35
It was hardly a lot of effort to remove the platter and take the resistance measurement.
My 0V connection is underneath the earth tag, as this seemed to make sense to me. However, engineering theory would suggest to me that there is little paint left on the inside of a hole, where a thread has been cut. As long as contact is made between the 0V lead and the screws, there should be little difference between the two positions.
If it is sensible for you then why the bloody hell ague against it!!!!???
This whole silly argument is becoming rather purile. We exist here in large part to help and advise the newbies to the expereience of upgrading a SL1200
If you can't see this then why contribute.
As the pendantic person you seem to be I challenge you to connecting the 0V wire as per the instructions and keeping it there.
No you will not do it will you, .................. because you know better
QED
I would have no concerns about moving the 0V point on my SL1200, to the other place on the PCB or another point on the aluminium chassis now that I have taken the measurements. It is a common earth.
The important point is that the 0V is installed correctly. It's as simple as that.
As the pendantic person you seem to be
There's something faintly amusing about spelling 'pedantic' incorrectly.
Coating or possible paint issues aside, this really is a non-issue being blown out of all proportion :mental:
Yep.
:eek:
Ammonite Audio
09-07-2015, 15:45
Hi Hugo,
Indeed, although many folks simply won't want to go near the 'gubbins' of any of their kit - and as mere end users of the products, why should they have to? The point is however, why wasn't the earth wire connected to the PCB's main earth point in the first place?
One would've thought that was the obvious place to put it. No 'grey areas' necessary!
Yes, and no doubt you'll remember how he reacted when, after you demonstrated (in my system) how much better the Paul Hynes SR3 PSU was compared with the Timestep, and I had the 'audacity' to report it on AoS, and then replace the Timestep with an SR5!!
Rational or 'receptive to healthy competition' he was not... :eek: ;)
Marco.
Having re-read my earlier post, I feel that it comes across as being a tad sniffy towards Timestep, which was completely unintentional. I did hold similar views to yours some years ago, but have since come to realise that Dave did pretty much kick the whole Technics thing off in this country, does actually know what he's doing, and continues to demonstrate that knowledge (witness the Timestep PSU that allows the Technics SL-1200 to run at 78 rpm). As for charges of not being receptive to healthy competition, my views on that have altered considerably since being in business myself!
I should add that in the last couple of years I have been on very friendly terms with Dave and have every intention of maintaining that state of affairs. Anyone coming to the Whittlebury Show in September will see that my stand is pretty much next to Dave's, although not by design - please come along and chat to both of us!
Mike. Die-cast aluminium is aluminium not an alloy. Kevins measurement suggests it's conductivity is close to the figure I quoted, and his note about paint not being on the thread explains why your comment is like saying copper is a poor conductor if measured across the pvc sleeve of a cable instead of stripping the sleeve off the end.
Don't be ridiculous, aluminium is an alloy and die-cast aluminium is certainly not pure aluminium. All of these materials are quite adequate in terms of carrying an earth continuity connection.
Don't be ridiculous, aluminium is an alloy and die-cast aluminium is certainly not pure aluminium. All of these materials are quite adequate in terms of carrying an earth continuity connection.
Really? What is it alloyed with?
Aluminium is not an alloy but die cast aluminium is.
Oldpinkman
10-07-2015, 11:10
Oh dear. As Macca says aluminium is not an alloy - it is an element - no 3 in the periodic table. Die cast aluminium is usually an alloy but doesn't have to be. Most aluminium in use is an alloy - even "pure" aluminium. The other elements in a typical alloy are tin, zinc, copper, magnesium , silicon , iron, nickel, lead and titanium, but in a typical "pure" aluminium casting alloy these are trace elements below 0.05% (except iron at about 0.5%). For all practical purposes its conductivity is bloody near perfect, with a resistance per metre of so close to zero ohms as makes bugger all difference.
Ali Tait
10-07-2015, 11:28
Which is why it's being increasingly used in HV cables, and because it's cheaper than copper.
Stratmangler
10-07-2015, 11:36
Oh dear. As Macca says aluminium is not an alloy - it is an element - no 3 in the periodic table. Die cast aluminium is usually an alloy but doesn't have to be. Most aluminium in use is an alloy - even "pure" aluminium. The other elements in a typical alloy are tin, zinc, copper, magnesium , silicon , iron, nickel, lead and titanium, but in a typical "pure" aluminium casting alloy these are trace elements below 0.05% (except iron at about 0.5%). For all practical purposes its conductivity is bloody near perfect, with a resistance per metre of so close to zero ohms as makes bugger all difference.
I work in telecommunications, and aluminium has a couple of traits that are not desirable in my industry.
In cable (telephone and data network cable) it brittles easily and can break.
Its surface also oxides quite readily, and aluminium oxide is a pretty good dielectric (insulator).
Which is why I always use copper cabling on my installations.
BT, lured by the low cost and with pressure applied by their bean counters (the cost far outweighs the problems it will cause :eyebrows: ), used aluminium cabling for their backbone in a few areas a few years ago, and where the stuff still exists it causes problems.
Having re-read my earlier post, I feel that it comes across as being a tad sniffy towards Timestep, which was completely unintentional. I did hold similar views to yours some years ago, but have since come to realise that Dave did pretty much kick the whole Technics thing off in this country, does actually know what he's doing, and continues to demonstrate that knowledge (witness the Timestep PSU that allows the Technics SL-1200 to run at 78 rpm). As for charges of not being receptive to healthy competition, my views on that have altered considerably since being in business myself!
I should add that in the last couple of years I have been on very friendly terms with Dave and have every intention of maintaining that state of affairs. Anyone coming to the Whittlebury Show in September will see that my stand is pretty much next to Dave's, although not by design - please come along and chat to both of us!
No worries, Hugo. However, I'm afraid that we'll [robustly] have to agree do disagree on our respective views of Mr Cawley, both based on considerable relevant experience! ;)
When in business, one should always welcome healthy competition, as one has no right to expect to get things all one's own way.
Ego and profit margins, therefore, should always be put aside in favour of what is best for the CUSTOMER, and so if a competitor comes up with a product that genuinely is better than yours, then the right thing to do is up YOUR game to COMPETE, and perhaps better it, not sulk or punish an existing customer simply for daring to be honest, as DC did to me.
All I'm interested in is having what to my ears is the best PSU for my turntable. I don't give a toss who supplies it! So no business or manufacturer has a right to expect 'loyalty' from any customer, if a competitor is producing a product that's fundamentally better. At the end of the day, all any user is interested in, is what's best for his or her system, not best for any trader's business or protecting their fragile ego.
As for the rest of this debate, it's pretty obvious for a number of reasons that the 0V connection point, chosen for the Timestep PSU by the manufacturer, is sub-optimal. Like most folk, I'd imagine. I'd always opt for what's optimal, not sub-optimal.
Now whether you can actually hear any sonic difference between the sub-optimal and optimal positions on the PCB is another matter, but the bottom line is the optimal point is where the wire should've been connected in the first place [marked as 'earth' on the PCB] - and that is why in my view, the manufacturer is at fault for not having stated, in the supplied instructions, that is where it should go.
End of.
Marco.
Mike_New
11-07-2015, 00:21
I cannot but totally agree with your last comment Marco. It is something that I have been trying to get across to people here.
On one occasion when I advised a new Bearing/Platter user (who had just purchased a PS) to change the connection to the bottom RH earth connection. He was unwise enough to call DC to discuss this and was treated to a tirade of verbal abuse.
Indeed, Mike. The 'optimal' point is simply where it's clearly marked as 'earth' on the T/T's PCB (bottom R/H). Anywhere else is therefore 'sub-optimal', so why on earth [no pun intended] would you connect the required wire, when using a Timestep PSU, to anywhere other than where it's clearly marked that it should be put?? :scratch:
It's either in the right place or the wrong place. There is no 'grey area'...! Therefore, there exists no logical justification for making the connection in the wrong place on the PCB, apart from ignorance.
*That* is the point that should not be missed here, together with the real cases you've reported of people having problems with their Techies, due to the 0V connection point being wrong, and subsequently sorted when you advised them on what to do. None of that is being made up or imagined, so it's ludicrous that some here appear to be dismissing it.
As for Mr Cawley's abusive attitude on the phone, again I'm not surprised, because that's precisely the way he always reacts when his arrogance [belief in that he is always right and/or his products are the best in the world] is challenged and proved as false.
Marco.
Indeed, Mike. The 'optimal' point is simply where it's clearly marked as 'earth' on the T/T's PCB (bottom R/H).
I thought it was bottom L/H as shown in this post - http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?15537-Technics-1210-mk2-pitch-fader-fix-(and-instructions-on-its-removal)&p=297165#post297165
Really? What is it alloyed with?
Well there is pure aluminium foil and some electrical conductors, but pretty much everything aluminium that is used for machining and fabrication is an alloy - typically alloyed with copper, magnesium, manganese, silicon, tin and zinc.
Below is the composition of a typical aluminium based alloy used for die-casting:
COMPOSITION
ALUMINUM
%413
AluminumRemainder
Copper1.0
Magnesium.1
Iron (max)2.0
Tin (max).15
Zinc.5
Manganese.35
Silicon11.0-13.0
Other-Metallic
Oh dear. As Macca says aluminium is not an alloy - it is an element - no 3 in the periodic table. Die cast aluminium is usually an alloy but doesn't have to be. Most aluminium in use is an alloy - even "pure" aluminium. The other elements in a typical alloy are tin, zinc, copper, magnesium , silicon , iron, nickel, lead and titanium, but in a typical "pure" aluminium casting alloy these are trace elements below 0.05% (except iron at about 0.5%). For all practical purposes its conductivity is bloody near perfect, with a resistance per metre of so close to zero ohms as makes bugger all difference.
atomic number 3 is Lithium - quite a different proposition to Aluminium, atomic number 13
edit - however I do agree with a rest of post (being pedantic :) )
I thought it was bottom L/H as shown in this post - http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?15537-Technics-1210-mk2-pitch-fader-fix-(and-instructions-on-its-removal)&p=297165#post297165
Yes, you're right. It's as Kevin outlined in the opening post of this thread:
The ground lug for the time step was attached to the Main motor PCB mounting screw in the far right side. This is completely wrong. It should be attached to the PCB mounting screw under the actual ground lug in the front left.
It was rather late when I posted, and I haven't been near the innards of my Techy for years!
The point is, that doesn't seem to be where Timestep PSUs are being fitted, and if so, that's wrong, i.e. 'wrong', as in incorrect or sub-optimal. I don't 'do' sub-optimal, and so neither should anyone else.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
11-07-2015, 10:40
atomic number 3 is Lithium - )
Yup. Gonna have to start proof reading!!
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