View Full Version : Vintage HiFi - How important is originality?
How important is it to you that vintage hifi is kept original?
When it comes to electronics I am sure most would agree that changing old dried out electrolytic capacitors can only be a good thing, but by doing so we are removing some of it's originality. Does this matter?
What about the physical aspect? For example wooden sides and sleeves that often found on vintage amplifiers, receivers & tuners are, in the majority of cases (no pun intended!), in poor condition. Would it be right to replace these with new?
If a replacement wooden sleeve or sides were available for your vintage gear, would you buy them?
Nothing wrong with replacing with like or upgraded parts etc as long as the essence of the whole is not changed too much. replacing cheeks is no different from replacing a tt mat or respraying the top of badly scratched amp.
walpurgis
19-06-2015, 17:13
Originality does not matter at all if you are keeping the item. Prospective buyers may want untouched goods though.
As for wood cheeks, best kept original and refurbished if necessary and possible.
Gordon Steadman
19-06-2015, 17:21
How important is it to you that vintage hifi is kept original?
When it comes to electronics I am sure most would agree that changing old dried out electrolytic capacitors can only be a good thing, but by doing so we are removing some of it's originality. Does this matter?
What about the physical aspect? For example wooden sides and sleeves that often found on vintage amplifiers, receivers & tuners are, in the majority of cases (no pun intended!), in poor condition. Would it be right to replace these with new?
If a replacement wooden sleeve or sides were available for your vintage gear, would you buy them?
I am no respecter of old gear - just ask DJSR about Duals!! - I don't have it for investment purposes, its here because either I want to listen to it or I want it because I couldn't afford it when it was new. If stuff is tatty, I tart it up. If someone else has done it, provided it has been done well, it wouldn't affect my wish to buy it. I've added wooden cheeks to more modern gear as I like the way it looks (shows my age). Originality is for collectors or investors.
awkwardbydesign
19-06-2015, 17:31
I buy old stuff to use. If I can improve it I will, including sockets and switches. Although I try not to fuglify it.
Wooden cheeks to new gear, I like your style!
Gordon Steadman
19-06-2015, 17:55
Wooden cheeks to new gear, I like your style!
Just to prove it, here is a pic of my Pioneer Stable Platter CDP. Nice bit of cherry:)
How important is it to you that vintage hifi is kept original?
Maybe not at all :lol:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7733/17136379430_08a534a3c6_b.jpg
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?38217-Quad-33-and-offboard-PSU
Beobloke
20-06-2015, 20:43
Personally, if I buy a piece of old gear, it's because I want to hear what it sounds like, not what some bodger in a shed thinks it should sound like after he's mucked around with it! [emoji6]
I like Gordon's idea of adding wooden cheeks to modern kit. I'd want mine to be darker wood, though and with that high gloss finish like a Lexus dashboard.
Macca - Isn't that plastic and not wood?
Most cars use fake plastic wood effects these days, they are very realistic, so its hard to tell till you wrap them with a knuckle.
mad-moon
26-06-2015, 17:19
they look exceptionally smart.
Just to prove it, here is a pic of my Pioneer Stable Platter CDP. Nice bit of cherry:)
Macca - Isn't that plastic and not wood?
Most cars use fake plastic wood effects these days, they are very realistic, so its hard to tell till you wrap them with a knuckle.
In some cases yes but you know the sort of finish I mean. I'd be happy with the plastic if it looked right. Probably get shot for saying that ;)
Gordon Steadman
27-06-2015, 09:15
In some cases yes but you know the sort of finish I mean. I'd be happy with the plastic if it looked right. Probably get shot for saying that ;)
If you like a finish, who cares what it's made of. It seems to be a fetish this seeking originality. When I make a guitar, I put a mirror finish on it and haven't been accused of making them look plastic yet.
When I veneer the new record player, it will be birds eye maple but I quite fancy making it a bit shiny. Probably put a layer of plexiglass sprayed black on the back between the two layers of wood for good measure.
Gordon Steadman
27-06-2015, 09:18
Personally, if I buy a piece of old gear, it's because I want to hear what it sounds like, not what some bodger in a shed thinks it should sound like after he's mucked around with it! [emoji6]
Bodgers were highly skillfull tradesmen.:ner:
montesquieu
14-08-2015, 21:09
Either a 100% restoration using original or close as possible parts, or do the minimum to make it work properly/look reasonable.
'Improving' vintage gear rarely ends well - there are exceptions (eg the Croft or Classique Sounds Leak mods or One Thing ESL57 panels) but I wouldn't touch anything too buggered about with especially by a non-specialist.
Audio Al
14-08-2015, 22:11
My 2p worth on this is as follows
I think that internally old hifi units should be updated with new modern components where possible but MUST be the same spec so keeping the original sound quality
Back in the 60s 70s items were designed by designers and made to a high quality ( something to be proud of ) you only need to looks at older SONY components , solid alloy front panels heavy duty switches and knobs wooden cases etc
Nowadays items are designed by accountants and must be made as cheap as possible for maximum profit , last as long as the guarantee , almost disposable
I love and own lots of old gear , couldn't be happier :)
Back in the 60s 70s items were designed by designers and made to a high quality ( something to be proud of )
I really wish I could believe you - but I was there, and it wasn't. At least not to the extent that some would imagine. There was a vast amount of mass-produced, made for profit, crap - even from the (now disproportionately revered) giants as Sony, Akai, Sansui, et al. Sure their top-end, and very expensive, prestige models could reach excellence but there was also a whole lot of dross in circulation - and I know I got through plenty at the time. European manufacturers were no exception to this and just as happy to pump thin press-moulded plastic and flaky hardboard pulp on the mass market as the best of them.
When I consider the build quality and sheer bang-for-buck of what's out there now for folk such as me with a very modest income, I for one have absolutely no nostalgia for that so called 'Golden Age' - at the time I could only gaze in the window .....
Audio Al
15-08-2015, 05:11
I really wish I could believe you - but I was there, and it wasn't. At least not to the extent that some would imagine. There was a vast amount of mass-produced, made for profit, crap - even from the (now disproportionately revered) giants as Sony, Akai, Sansui, et al. Sure their top-end, and very expensive, prestige models could reach excellence but there was also a whole lot of dross in circulation - and I know I got through plenty at the time. European manufacturers were no exception to this and just as happy to pump thin press-moulded plastic and flaky hardboard pulp on the mass market as the best of them.
When I consider the build quality and sheer bang-for-buck of what's out there now for folk such as me with a very modest income, I for one have absolutely no nostalgia for that so called 'Golden Age' - at the time I could only gaze in the window .....
What :eek:
Maybe low end mass produced but then you get what you pay for
I don't see any of the above in Quad / Leek / Studer / Revox etc
One thing to bear in mind especially with old/vintage speakers is to be careful they have not been modified with modern components in the crossover network or indeed internal wiring as all this has a massive bearing on how the speaker was voiced when it was developed.
I don't see any of the above in Quad / Leek / Studer / Revox etc
You've made my point for me - the brands you cite where way beyond the wage packet of many such as me. Easy to be selective about the past.
If you did a pro-rata comparison in terms of value for money now you would find top quality at equally unreachable prices but also very good quality much lower down the scale.
There was less of that kicking about in the '60s - much less
walpurgis
15-08-2015, 08:50
If you doubt the ability and quality of old Japanese gear. Try an early seventies Trio KA-2000A integrated amp. It was bottom of the range and one of the cheapest Jap amps about, but very well put together and has startlingly good sound quality. It is lucid and extremely detailed, with no grain or harshness and would not disgrace itself in comparison with say a Sugden A21A. Even the phono stage sounds decent. Many Japanese amps of the time are that good. And they are reliable too. That's why there are still so many about. Try finding British integrateds from the same period. They are getting pretty thin on the ground.
One thing to bear in mind especially with old/vintage speakers is to be careful they have not been modified with modern components in the crossover network or indeed internal wiring as all this has a massive bearing on how the speaker was voiced when it was developed.
I've also wondered about changing the internal cabling. Bellwire might look pants but as you say if that was what they voiced the speaker with. I suppose the speaker cable you use should also have some bearing in that case. No Monster cable around back in the late Sixties and early Seventies. I'd like to know what speaker cable they did use at Celestion, Wharfedale etc back in the day.
Thing is lots of people swap out the bell-wire from their vintage speakers and pretty much always declare it an improvement. I wonder if anyone has ever found it degraded performance compared to the bell wire?
montesquieu
15-08-2015, 15:20
I've also wondered about changing the internal cabling. Bellwire might look pants but as you say if that was what they voiced the speaker with. I suppose the speaker cable you use should also have some bearing in that case. No Monster cable around back in the late Sixties and early Seventies. I'd like to know what speaker cable they did use at Celestion, Wharfedale etc back in the day.
Thing is lots of people swap out the bell-wire from their vintage speakers and pretty much always declare it an improvement. I wonder if anyone has ever found it degraded performance compared to the bell wire?
I doubt very much if any speaker was consciously 'voiced' with bell wire it was just what got used at the time.
walpurgis
15-08-2015, 17:07
Prior to audiophile speaker cables coming along, I suspect speaker companies used similar cable to that employed by PA companies, bands and mobile discos, which although not hefty by modern standards was reasonable quality. I know, as I worked with one of the biggest mobile discos in the London area in the late sixties and early seventies. Worked alongside some serious bands too and I had involvements with PA business. I doubt 'bell wire' would have been used at all. I visited Lockwood Audio back in the early seventies, at their Harrow site and also Jordan Watts in Hayes. They were certainly not using bell wire.
I'm assuming those reading this thread know what bell wire actually is. The term gets misused and and is applied to any thin two core cable.
Arkless Electronics
15-08-2015, 17:23
It's a perennial subject for sure.... Customers seem to like rebuilt but with similar to original parts generally in my experience.
I've offered upgrades for Stereo 20's in the past which considerably modify and improve them but there was no interest, the reason usually given being that if they had wanted an amp of modern spec and quality that's what they would have bought.... yeah I can go with that...
I doubt very much if any speaker was consciously 'voiced' with bell wire it was just what got used at the time.
Meaning bell wire - or whatever the technical name is, was a given. So other components that were not a given, values of the components in the crossover, say, might have been selected around it.
I don't know if that is the case or how much they actually bothered about such subtleties. Maybe they didn't.
So Geoff, can you take a guess at what they specifically might have used as speaker cable?
Most used two-core 5A mains cable, and the same was suggested by amplifier manufacturers to use as speaker cable.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jgknr-caL._SY355_.jpg
(The cable used by speaker manufacturers would be very similar to this, but used the old red and black colour convention.)
The term 'bell wire' to me suggests two-core, single insulated wire:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Qg0nVR9%2BL.jpg
walpurgis
15-08-2015, 18:19
So Geoff, can you take a guess at what they specifically might have used as speaker cable?
Blowed if I can remember cable brand names now. It was 45 years ago. Most of the stuff we used was sourced from WEM who made the amps and speakers.
(Nice gear WEM in its day. A biggish disco rig was generally six or eight 4x12 speaker columns housing Goodmans 12" full range units, driven from a WEM stereo master amp and a line of slave amps. Front end was usually two Garrard AP75 TTs with Decca Deram ceramic carts and a WEM mixer of course. All carted about in a Ford 400 van! :D)
Most used two-core 5A mains cable, and the same was suggested by amplifier manufacturers to use as speaker cable.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jgknr-caL._SY355_.jpg
(The cable used by speaker manufacturers would be very similar to this, but used the old red and black colour convention.)
The term 'bell wire' to me suggests two-core, single insulated wire:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Qg0nVR9%2BL.jpg
Thats the stuff Barry. My Spendor Sp2's use this internally but red and black. I can tell you replacing the cable for some monster new stuff affects the SQ especially in the bass/ mid driver.
Us-&-Them
19-08-2015, 14:55
I like to see originality where possible - its nice to respect the original designers/manufacturers idea. Would a classic piece of antiquity (pottery) be as good or worth as much when it has been damaged then restored - no.
But, on the other hand, I also like things improved aswell. An example - an SMC (super muscle car) for instance a Camero or a Mustang kept with original colour and shape but with the benefit of modern braking systems and suspension fitted; looks the same as it did when it came out of the factory but works better!! I like that philosophy with hi-fi components but not to the extent where they get butchered !!
If it was me with a piece of Pioneer for my one vintage set-up, I'd want it as original as possible and working 100%.
Its a double edged sword sometimes - it pleases one person but, not another. In my opinion, it kinda depends on what the item is - its hard to decide. That's my 10p worth for what its worth :)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.