Cartridge upgrade on Thorens TD160

[HackneyRF]

Evening. I'm new to this forum. So far It's looking great.

Anyway I'd like to hear your opinions on where to go next in terms of a cartridge upgrade. I have a standard Thorens TD160 MK1 with the TP-16 tonearm. The cartridge at the moment is a humble Dual badged AT-91 which has done me proud but I understand has its limitations. Budget wise, my upper limit is £200. My present amp is a Arcam Delta 60, a Arcam DV137 for CD/SACDand speakers are Adam Audio Artist 5.

I have heard good things about the Denon DL110, but am put off slightly by the none replaceable stylus. Have heard good things also about the Ortofon 2M Blue. Many thanks to everyone who posts a reply.

Cheers

Laurence

[struth]

The denon hmc cart should be fine on a tip16. not quite so sure about the orto though. Woudnt worry about the stylus being fixed. its not a super expensive cart and you usually find in replaceable mm cart stylii that the replacement is almost as expensive as the whole thing cost. MC's are non replaceable by us but sound very good. Just sold my last 110 last week

[HackneyRF]

The denon hmc cart should be fine on a tip16. not quite so sure about the orto though. Woudnt worry about the stylus being fixed. its not a super expensive cart and you usually find in replaceable mm cart stylii that the replacement is almost as expensive as the whole thing cost. MC's are non replaceable by us but sound very good. Just sold my last 110 last week

Thanks Grant
The Denon does seem a popular choice. I'm curious why you have reservations regarding the Ortofon?

[struth]

Sure it would work but not so sure its a match made in heaven. not tried a blue but I find those denon h outputers hard to beat for value. they are a good size and the vf should be right for a tip16..Orto's might be a tad smooth

[HackneyRF]

OK grand.

Cheers

[rdpx]

Thanks Grant
The Denon does seem a popular choice. I'm curious why you have reservations regarding the Ortofon?

The Ortofon 2M series are usually fixed from the top, and I think with your Thorens headshell you can only fix from below. You can get 2Ms that attach from below but they are not so common (it would be called "2M BLUE VERSO")

I have a 150 with a TP-13A and am waiting on a Denon 160 to try out with it. I have also been recommended a Goldring 1006 which apparently works well (according to a chap at Deco Audio) but have not tried it yet.

[Clive197]

The Ortofon will work well with your Thorens, though you will need the "Verso" version which is available via your dealer.

IMO and experience, High Output MC's tend to lose a lot of the smoothness that MC's are known for and as I am not a fan of Denons (well known on this forum) I cannot recommend the DL110, though its hard to argue the value.

Other cartridges which would work well with the Thorens would be by Goldring (who in the past have made cartridges for Linn) and Rega.

[DSJR]

Yep, the Ortofon Blue does mount from the top and is a fussy beggar to get to work at all, let alone properly for good sound I understand (the Bronze is a very different and much better beast and I now know this one quite well).

The Denon 110 is boringly good still and IMO not as bad as Clive tells above (it suffers by omission IMO rather than adding nasty resonances) but has suffered some sneaky price increases in recent years as its popularity has grown again. Another consideration for the TP16 is the Sumiko Blue Point (the basic one). The much cheaper Shure 97XE would be a better match for a stock TD160mk1 though.

Having said all this, the Td160 itself will need some attention to get the best out of these cartridges, some EP80 or similar thick viscous 'adhesive' oil in the wobbly bearing will be beneficial (all 160mk1's I set up had some slop in the main bearing, fixed in the mk2 and subsequent models).

The mat should be replaced with either a cheap cork one (one or two suppiers do large centre hole mats to suit typical classic Thorens platters) or a heavy rubber one as fitted to the 160 Super (I dare say a Lenco 75 mat would work as well on the Thorens as it does on the GL75 despite the concentric 'ribs.'

I used to remove the foam bungs in the springs as a matter of course, using some thin long-nosed pliers to pull it out from within the spring coils thereby not disturbing the spring seating, but this does make the suspension rather lively and any subjective improvement is open to question I now believe.

The TP16 itself can have too much rattle in the arm bearings. These needle pivots aren't as fine as the equivalent Dual tonearm ones for example and if even slightly over-tightened, the arm bearings will lock up (horizontal one is under the top cap which can easily be prised off). Even a well damped MC like the DL110 may benefit from well adjusted bearings.

Lastly, a NEW BELT ever couple of years is mandatory. The belts used are small, very stretchy and don't stay the course as long as say a Linn belt. Originals now in manufacture and easy to obtain (I want to try the Thakker one as I have a sneaky feeling it could be identical - not all pattern copies are...).

Hope you don't mind the above. I used to know these decks inside out and set hundreds up in my time with original and all sorts of other tonearms. They can sound very pleasant, but to get the best out of the basic design, the 'Super' should be considered, not in the fancy sub-chassis and platter damping, which actually does very little if anything (my mate at KJ used to cut precision damping sheets using a template and we charged £25 to fit them, so we had loads of before and after knowledge), but a beefed up plinth and mat works wonders...

[severe edit] You might not want to read this, but in the mid to late 70's, KJ weren't Rega dealers, although we traded a good few 2's and 3's in. The Regas ALWAYS sounded better :( and Hifi Dave here found the same (he has been selling Rega products for forty years now).

[HackneyRF]

Thanks for the advice everyone.


The Ortofon 2M series are usually fixed from the top, and I think with your Thorens headshell you can only fix from below. You can get 2Ms that attach from below but they are not so common (it would be called "2M BLUE VERSO")

Robert, the previous owner did this modification to the headshell so it could have top fixing cartridges, seems to work without issue.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=482956

Here is mine.

http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r502/lozring/image.jpg2.jpg

http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r502/lozring/image.jpg3.jpg



IMO and experience, High Output MC's tend to lose a lot of the smoothness that MC's are known for and as I am not a fan of Denons (well known on this forum) I cannot recommend the DL110, though its hard to argue the value.

Thanks Clive, certainly food for thought. Although you are one of the first to not like the Denon!


Yep, the Ortofon Blue does mount from the top and is a fussy beggar to get to work at all, let alone properly for good sound I understand (the Bronze is a very different and much better beast and I now know this one quite well).

The Denon 110 is boringly good still and IMO not as bad as Clive tells above (it suffers by omission IMO rather than adding nasty resonances) but has suffered some sneaky price increases in recent years as its popularity has grown again. Another consideration for the TP16 is the Sumiko Blue Point (the basic one). The much cheaper Shure 97XE would be a better match for a stock TD160mk1 though.

Cheers Dave
The Bronze is out of my budget really. Your opinions on the Denon however don't really sell it to me, sounds as though I may find it underwhelming. I do enjoy warm sound but perhaps it could be too warm. One or two have mentioned the Shure as a good match and it's a good price too. Will do some research on the Sumiko. A big thanks for the additional info on the 160.

[paskinn]

I used the Thorens for years, nice deck, and to me rather nicer to own than a rega. For cartridges, avoid cheap MC units, I would use a Shure 97xe, comically good for £70 and competitive with stuff at any times the price. Just not fashionable.....

[DSJR]

The Denon isn't overly warm at all, but neither is it 'exciting,' spitting 'hf deeeetail' all over the place

I'm out of date here, but the cheaper Ortofon MC's like the X1-MC (below the Vivo Red) were a bit fierce in my day, even for me. I honestly wouldn't put the DL110 anywhere near that bracket and this latter apparently makes a great choice for the stock techie arm. The 110 just gets on with it.

The Dual cartridge you have pictured can be readily improved though and for starters, the Me97XE would be great, as would the Ortofon 520mk2 (Vinyl master something) which comes between the 2M Red and Blue I believe (I NEVER found the OM20 or 520 in either marque as 'difficult' as the 2M Blue).

Yep, the Thorens can be fulfilling in areas that a Rega can't because the latter is so simple. My advice is still to look at the 160 Super updates as inspiration, as these genuinely suited this design well (heavier rubber mat with good contact area, more solid plinth AND BASE).

Good luck :)

[killie99]

All of the Thorens I've tinkered with over the years (TD125/126/140/150/160) were greatly improved by using a decent hardwood or thick ply plinth and thick ply base (at least 12mm thick base). On a 160 I'd also damp the sub-chassis with cork, dynamat on the chassis and move the arm ground cable from the right hand channel ground to it's own grounding point.

[HackneyRF]

I would use a Shure 97xe, comically good for £70 and competitive with stuff at any times the price. Just not fashionable.....

Thanks Peter, the Shure is a popular choice it seems too, so maybe that could be a sensible upgrade for now.

[HackneyRF]

The Dual cartridge you have pictured can be readily improved though and for starters, the Me97XE would be great.....

Thanks Dave, maybe that's the way to go in the short term, well within budget and a good upgrade but frees up some cash for other changes!

[HackneyRF]

All of the Thorens I've tinkered with over the years (TD125/126/140/150/160) were greatly improved by using a decent hardwood or thick ply plinth and thick ply base (at least 12mm thick base).

That is certainly something I intend to do Stuart. The Russ Collinson plinths look well made as does a Dutch producers, Audio-Affectus on Ebay.

Cheers
Laurence

[skimminstones]

got a 160 myself a little while ago and it came with a goldring elektra which sounds surprisingly good. Been thinking about upgrades myself but for now im perfectly happy with the way it sounds

[HackneyRF]

got a 160 myself a little while ago and it came with a goldring elektra which sounds surprisingly good. Been thinking about upgrades myself but for now im perfectly happy with the way it sounds

Hi Keith

I guess in some respects i needn't change anything as mine sounds pretty good too. I have a slight tinkering nature itch that i need to scratch from time to time. I do it with my motorcycles too. Glad you are enjoying yours.
Cheers
Loz

[HackneyRF]

The Denon isn't overly warm at all, but neither is it 'exciting,' spitting 'hf deeeetail' all over the place

I'm out of date here, but the cheaper Ortofon MC's like the X1-MC (below the Vivo Red) were a bit fierce in my day, even for me. I honestly wouldn't put the DL110 anywhere near that bracket and this latter apparently makes a great choice for the stock techie arm. The 110 just gets on with it.

The Dual cartridge you have pictured can be readily improved though and for starters, the Me97XE would be great, as would the Ortofon 520mk2 (Vinyl master something) which comes between the 2M Red and Blue I believe (I NEVER found the OM20 or 520 in either marque as 'difficult' as the 2M Blue).

Yep, the Thorens can be fulfilling in areas that a Rega can't because the latter is so simple. My advice is still to look at the 160 Super updates as inspiration, as these genuinely suited this design well (heavier rubber mat with good contact area, more solid plinth AND BASE).

Good luck :)

P.s. Dave, I do believe that your location refers not to an actual place but to two very excellent Ulrich Schnauss albums?