Croft Acoustics RIAA R, and Audion Premier Phonos MM

[topdogya]

Hi all,

I am going to be on the market very soon for a new MM phono amp,

I am looking at phonos around the £1000 mark and I am hoping to get to try out the Croft Acoustics RIAA R, and the Audion Premier Phono MM,

Does anyone have one of these Phono in their system or heard any of them? if so what do you think of them?

Thanks guys
Steve.

[paskinn]

Can't help on the Audion, as I've never heard one. But can offer a few remarks about the Croft RIAA and the two more costly versions, R and RS. Essentially, what you get as you go 'up' is better regulation of the power supply, plus some nicer parts. They are very popular. The 'sweet spot' is probably the R version.
However, not everyone prefers the more costly versions...having owned all three I, surprisingly, realised I liked the basic version best. The bass isn't so 'grippy', you get a bit less control, and possibly a slight (slight)loss in detail; but you seem to have more of a lovely 'flow' and 'organic' quality.
This is surely a minority view, most folk prefer the R, but don't assume price is a reliable guide to what you might prefer. For instance, the £500 'saved' by buying the basic RIAA, could go toward a really top class SUT , which seems, to my ears, to make a bigger difference. Assuming you ever plan to use MC of course.
Anyway, you are unlikely to go wrong with Croft, whichever version you decide on. He has a remarkable track record for producing great phono circuits at sensible prices. And if you buy the basic unit, upgrading isn't expensive.

[The Black Adder]

The Croft is a lovely RIAA. If you decide then go for it and then get it upgraded at a later date maybe?

[hifi_dave]

The Croft phono stage with an RFC MC-1 for MC duties is a seriously good combination. A world class combination at reasonable cost.

[Firebottle]

I've just modified a Croft 25R to accept an external 'cascode input' module to cater for MC without the need or expense of a good SUT.

Whilst the Croft is a well though out build I don't like the low bass boost that Glenn's choice of RIAA equalisation gives.
With my large floorstanders it results in an overblown bass, though might sound more than acceptable with smaller or bookshelf speakers.

Also the choice of critical equalisation and coupling capacitors can be bettered, but on the other hand the Croft kit does offer good SPPV at the price point.

The Firebottle 2 MC/MM bettered a Longdog MC in a fellow members system recently. Another option at well under the £1000 mark?

:) Alan

[ChrisKemp]

I've just modified a Croft 25R to accept an external 'cascode input' module to cater for MC without the need or expense of a good SUT.

Whilst the Croft is a well though out build I don't like the low bass boost that Glenn's choice of RIAA equalisation gives.
With my large floorstanders it results in an overblown bass, though might sound more than acceptable with smaller or bookshelf speakers.

Also the choice of critical equalisation and coupling capacitors can be bettered, but on the other hand the Croft kit does offer good SPPV at the price point.

The Firebottle 2 MC/MM bettered a Longdog MC in a fellow members system recently. Another option?

:) Alan

I had the Audion Premiere MM home for testing for 3-4 weeks last year. The way you describe the Croft is how I concluded with the Audion. I just loved the midrange. So organic, chesty and full of life. The top end likewise. But I did not like how the bass was tuned either. The bass became overblown and boomy with my ProAc D25 and they are not boomy. They deliver tight low end bass and is nothing near boomy.

At the same time I was also testing the Graham Slee Reflex M + PSU1. Switching from the colorful midrange of the Audion and directly over to Reflex M, brought back the tight bass. The midrange was much more neutral and flat, and at first it sounded a little too neutral comming directly from Audion. But 15 minutes later I realised that this is the sound signature I'm after. Neutral and flat is not boring, it's just right. Better highs and I could hear things the Audion painted over because of the dominant bass. The midrange was more realistic and with depth and a deeper and wider soundstage. All of this made the Reflex M sound more dynamic.

As a home theatre guy I compare the two phonostages like this:

Audion Premiere MM: a top LCD LED with the colors set to DYNAMIC. Colors red, blue and green are all a little overblown. The skintones a little more red, the grass is greener and the sky is bluer. All looks beautiful and colorful. The blacklevel is good, too.

Jasmine and Reflex M: like a Pioneer Kuro or Panasonic VT50 plasma (like I have). Colors are spot on D65 and calibrated. At first the picture looks a bit less impressive after comming from the overblown colors on the LCD, but then you realise that calibrated colors is how they are looking out your window. The skintones are real. The grass on the fotball field does'nt look like it's radioactive and the sky is just natural blue. And the blacklevel is deeper and make the picture deeper and more real!

That is what I mean by neutral:)


I had not yet made up my mind, but if I had to chose between Audion and the Reflex M; it would be Reflex M for sure! But there was another phono amp I just had to check out. I had read all the rave reviews about the chinese made Jasmine LP2.0 mk2. And it got even better when owners modded it lightly by upgrading some of its caps. Well, the brand new Jasmine LP2.5DU was just out. It had upgraded parts and caps from factory and I had to take a chance so I ordered directly from the factory in China via Ebay. Be aware! The brand that looks like Jasmine and is made by Salience has nothing to do with Jasmine at all!!! Jasmine use quality parts. Salience is a copycat and does not!

Anyway. Just a week after ordering I was able to A/B-test it with the Reflex M. The Reflex M had stayed in my system now for the last two weeks and I was very used to its sound. I was hoping that the Jasmine LP2.5DU was close, because it costs £300 less than the Reflex+PSU. But to my big surprise, the Jasmine was just as good right out of the box:eek: Same neutral mids and extended highs. The bass was even tighter and just as deep. But it was in share dynamics that the Jasmine trumphed the Reflex M. The music was clean, neutral and very dynamic. It was so good that I still have it! :eyebrows:

The Jasmine LP2.5 is a class A, zero negative feedback design with plenty of gain. 55db MM and 70db MC. Flexible with load on MC (20, 100, 250, 1000 ohm) AND takes two tonearms! Also Jasmine provide great service. I have tried the Jasmine with the high output Ortofon 2M Black and now my demanding London Decca Super Gold. Both cartridges sounds fantastic. Even the cheap AT95E sounds great with the Jasmine. With the MF V-LPSii+V-PSUii (my first phono stage), the AT95E was a little boring with overblown bass. Not anymore!

Audion is great if your system is a little bass light and need a little extra help. But if you have a top system and don't need the extra bass; well check out Jasmine LP2.5DU (it has a seperate PSU) or the Graham Slee Reflex M+PSU1 (upgraded PSU).
:)

Check out my pictures of my setup in this thread! It's in norwegian, but the pictures are nice.
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/vinylavdelingen/74493-jasmine-lp2-5du-phono-vs-graham-slee-reflex-m-vs-audiomods-premier-phono.html

[ChrisKemp]

The Croft phono Riaa will be sent to me today for testing:eyebrows:

[topdogya]

The Croft phono Riaa will be sent to me today for testing:eyebrows:

Hi Chris.
Good luck with the Croft Riaa Phono, not shure how long they need to burn in before they start to sing

Chris, can you please let me know how you get on with the Croft riaa,, as it is looking more like the road that I might be taken.

Thanks
Steve.

[ChrisKemp]

Hi Chris.
Good luck with the Croft Riaa Phono, not shure how long they need to burn in before they start to sing

Chris, can you please let me know how you get on with the Croft riaa,, as it is looking more like the road that I might be taken.

Thanks
Steve.

That's the point of reviewing products: to share:cool:

[high.spirits]

Great Review Chris.

Thanks



I had the Audion Premiere MM home for testing for 3-4 weeks last year. The way you describe the Croft is how I concluded with the Audion. I just loved the midrange. So organic, chesty and full of life. The top end likewise. But I did not like how the bass was tuned either. The bass became overblown and boomy with my ProAc D25 and they are not boomy. They deliver tight low end bass and is nothing near boomy.

At the same time I was also testing the Graham Slee Reflex M + PSU1. Switching from the colorful midrange of the Audion and directly over to Reflex M, brought back the tight bass. The midrange was much more neutral and flat, and at first it sounded a little too neutral comming directly from Audion. But 15 minutes later I realised that this is the sound signature I'm after. Neutral and flat is not boring, it's just right. Better highs and I could hear things the Audion painted over because of the dominant bass. The midrange was more realistic and with depth and a deeper and wider soundstage. All of this made the Reflex M sound more dynamic.

As a home theatre guy I compare the two phonostages like this:

Audion Premiere MM: a top LCD LED with the colors set to DYNAMIC. Colors red, blue and green are all a little overblown. The skintones a little more red, the grass is greener and the sky is bluer. All looks beautiful and colorful. The blacklevel is good, too.

Jasmine and Reflex M: like a Pioneer Kuro or Panasonic VT50 plasma (like I have). Colors are spot on D65 and calibrated. At first the picture looks a bit less impressive after comming from the overblown colors on the LCD, but then you realise that calibrated colors is how they are looking out your window. The skintones are real. The grass on the fotball field does'nt look like it's radioactive and the sky is just natural blue. And the blacklevel is deeper and make the picture deeper and more real!

That is what I mean by neutral:)


I had not yet made up my mind, but if I had to chose between Audion and the Reflex M; it would be Reflex M for sure! But there was another phono amp I just had to check out. I had read all the rave reviews about the chinese made Jasmine LP2.0 mk2. And it got even better when owners modded it lightly by upgrading some of its caps. Well, the brand new Jasmine LP2.5DU was just out. It had upgraded parts and caps from factory and I had to take a chance so I ordered directly from the factory in China via Ebay. Be aware! The brand that looks like Jasmine and is made by Salience has nothing to do with Jasmine at all!!! Jasmine use quality parts. Salience is a copycat and does not!

Anyway. Just a week after ordering I was able to A/B-test it with the Reflex M. The Reflex M had stayed in my system now for the last two weeks and I was very used to its sound. I was hoping that the Jasmine LP2.5DU was close, because it costs £300 less than the Reflex+PSU. But to my big surprise, the Jasmine was just as good right out of the box:eek: Same neutral mids and extended highs. The bass was even tighter and just as deep. But it was in share dynamics that the Jasmine trumphed the Reflex M. The music was clean, neutral and very dynamic. It was so good that I still have it! :eyebrows:

The Jasmine LP2.5 is a class A, zero negative feedback design with plenty of gain. 55db MM and 70db MC. Flexible with load on MC (20, 100, 250, 1000 ohm) AND takes two tonearms! Also Jasmine provide great service. I have tried the Jasmine with the high output Ortofon 2M Black and now my demanding London Decca Super Gold. Both cartridges sounds fantastic. Even the cheap AT95E sounds great with the Jasmine. With the MF V-LPSii+V-PSUii (my first phono stage), the AT95E was a little boring with overblown bass. Not anymore!

Audion is great if your system is a little bass light and need a little extra help. But if you have a top system and don't need the extra bass; well check out Jasmine LP2.5DU (it has a seperate PSU) or the Graham Slee Reflex M+PSU1 (upgraded PSU).
:)

Check out my pictures of my setup in this thread! It's in norwegian, but the pictures are nice.
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/vinylavdelingen/74493-jasmine-lp2-5du-phono-vs-graham-slee-reflex-m-vs-audiomods-premier-phono.html

[topdogya]

How many hours do you have on the Croft? I was going to ask if anyone who has a Croft Acoustics RIAA or the RIAA, R found they seem to be down on gain and soundstage, or is this because they need a good amount of running in time.
Cheers
Steve,

[ChrisKemp]

I´m sure soundstage won´t be down, but I also want to know how much gain does the Croft Riaa have? 40db? 45db? Cant´t find the data anywere:scratch:

[Firebottle]

Knowing the circuit of the Croft RIAA using 2x ECC83's I would hazard a guess at 45dB.

:cool: Alan

[topdogya]

Yes I would also like to know how much gain does the Croft Riaa have? I can not seem find the data anywere. Why does Glenn keep this from us?

[paskinn]

Yes I would also like know how much gain does the Croft Riaa have? I can not seem find the data anywere. Why does Glen keep this from us?

It has about 45db I would say, judging from my comparisons with other phonostages. For a MM circuit that is plenty, and certainly above average. Glenn can vary the output using different valves; he reduced mine by about 5db, which was useful.
Maybe people are comparing the Croft with a phonostage with mc output...which would usually be around 65db.

[ChrisKemp]

45db is high enough for MM I aggree. The Croft Riaa R is playing as I write:) Came in the mail today.
Is it any good? :eyebrows:

[topdogya]

45db is high enough for MM I aggree. The Croft Riaa R is playing as I write:) Came in the mail today.
Is it any good? :eyebrows:

You are lucky, I have to wait to the end of this month before I can get over to my dealer to bring one back for a home demmo, I was not to shure on what phono amp to go for, I am hoping the Croft Riaa R is a big jump up from the Graham Slee Era Gold that has given me great service for the last 3 years, it seems that a lot of guys are saying that you cannot go wrong with a Croft.

[ChrisKemp]

I will write some more after I ha e done some more listening. I'm using my spare cartridge (AT95E) because my London Decca Super Gold is in the UK for service. I can say this: I did not think the cheap AT95E could sound this good. I wonder how it will sound with the Decca:eek:

[Jimbo]

I will write some more after I ha e done some more listening. I'm using my spare cartridge (AT95E) because my London Decca Super Gold is in the UK for service. I can say this: I did not think the cheap AT95E could sound this good. I wonder how it will sound with the Decca:eek:


Awesome!

[topdogya]

I will write some more after I ha e done some more listening. I'm using my spare cartridge (AT95E) because my London Decca Super Gold is in the UK for service. I can say this: I did not think the cheap AT95E could sound this good. I wonder how it will sound with the Decca:eek:

Thanks Chris, I look forward to reading how you get on with the Croft Riaa R, even using the spare cartridge the (AT95E) sounds like, you are taken by the Croft?, Have fun with it, :)

[topoxforddoc]

dont forget to listen to the new TRON Convergence, as it is a steal for the money

[topdogya]

I need to get hold of and listern to the Croft's 1st

[topdogya]

I will write some more after I ha e done some more listening. I'm using my spare cartridge (AT95E) because my London Decca Super Gold is in the UK for service. I can say this: I did not think the cheap AT95E could sound this good. I wonder how it will sound with the Decca:eek:

Hi Chris, How are you getting on with the Croft? have you put some more hours on it yet? if so what do you think of the Croft?

[paskinn]

The stark truth is that none of our opinions matter...because they are just that, opinions. Set in 'print' they can look objective, but they aren't, not at all. Five experienced listeners will often reach five different conclusions; none are 'right' or 'wrong' and a thread on a forum can't settle the matter of personal taste and equipment matching.
You have to listen for yourself, in your room, with your gear. What you observe is relevent to you, and your own circumstances. It has no reliable meaning beyond that.
Or to put it directly, forum advice about what gear you will like is worthless. It really is.....that's not cynicism, it's the truth of this highly subjective hobby. Everything you learn, you will learn from your own experience.

[topdogya]

Peter, I disagree of part of what you say, if others who have, or have had a unit that you are interested in and are able to give you some tips, about that unit or point you in the right direction then I think that is a good thing. What is so wrong with that?

But yes you are right; I do be leave that only you can make up your own mind, it’s your opinion that matters to you. After you listen for yourself, in your own room with all your Hi-Fi gear, only you can decide if it’s any good for you or not.

As you rightly say, everything you learn you learn from your own experience: but that’s life.

[ChrisKemp]

I´m still waiting for my London Decca Super Gold to arrive from service. But for a couple of nights now I have A/B/A/B-tested it with the Jasmine LP2.5DU with AT95E cart. The Jasmine is tighter in the lower end and bass is more articulate. Mids are more natural and clear with Jasmine and the Croft is a little too chesty for my taste. Jasmine has more sparkle on top and I can follow the guitar strings easier with the Jasmine. Overall I find the Jasmine more dynamic and natural sounding. The Croft is very colorful in a positive way, but I think it is too much of a good thing together with my LM218iA single ended triode amp with 845s and EL-34 tubes.

So far my Jasmine LP2.5DU kl.A zero feedback is not going anywere, but I won´t conclude before I test it with the Decca:) But hey, the Croft Riaa R is a fantastic phono stage:) I will write some more when I have my London back...

[ChrisKemp]

Just got my Lndon Decca Super Gold back from Divine Audio and also mr. John Wright. Connected it to the new Yamamoto ebony headshell (came in the mail today). VTF 1,9g and VTA/ azimuth spot on. Switched the power button on the Croft Riaa R. First thing I notice is that the Croft is very quiet!

Tracy Chapman (Crossroads) on top of the Oyaide MJ-12 and my new 750g record weight. Forst two tracks...ok. I know that the Decca need atleast one LP side to warm up. The Croft R was also started from cold. Some IGD, but that is my fault because I just had to have a quick listen on my day off:)

Next LP. Still Tracy Chapman, but now her debut album Revolution.

Wow! Now we're talking:) I can see how London Decca and Croft goes together!! Very dynamic. But I must do some fine tuning with the overhang.

Still not sure what the correct overhang should be with Jelco 750D. Overhang in mm, please...

[struth]

nice headshell the blackwood. not only sounds great but looks fab too

[walpurgis]

Should be a nice setup. Deccas always sound 'interesting' (nothing else quite like them), I've had a good few. I haven't used one for a while, but I reckon the Croft should have the right 'synergy'.

[Thebiglebowski]

Had my Croft RIAA for a month now and it sounds bloody lovely with the 2M Black, I'd highly recommend it.