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DaveK
09-09-2009, 20:44
Hi Guys,
I have arranged tomorrow for my Techie to have new phono leads soldered in place, whilst I wait. I thought that I would, at the same time, accept Marco's advice and get a new shielded audiophile power cable soldered in place at the same time.
BUT I have a small problem:
The existing power cable is only twin core flex whilst the new lead is three cores i.e. it has an earth cable. Having wired the odd three pin plug before I know what to do with the earth wire at the plug end but what the heck should I do with the bare end at the Techie PCB end??
Any prompt, polite and urgent responses would be greatly appreciated. Left to my own devices I would connect the earth lead at the plug end but leave it loose, but not bare, at the Techie end, but are there any better solutions, please.
Thanks in advance for any response.
Cheers,

Mike
09-09-2009, 20:47
You could probably connect it to a metal part of the chassis.

Beechwoods
09-09-2009, 21:09
Or cut it off cleanly at the Techie end; judging by the existing wiring, the Turntable will have been designed to be double-insulated which means it doesn't need a connection back to earth via the power lead...

Mike
09-09-2009, 21:12
It might make a small improvement to the screening effect of the metal chassis though... ;)

But not strictly necessary, as Beechy says.

Beechwoods
09-09-2009, 21:17
I'd not thought of the potential audiophile improvement :doh:

AB listening test anyone?!

DaveK
09-09-2009, 21:19
Cheers Guys, Thanks for that - if I can find a convenient bit of chassis to screw it to, that's what I'll do, but if not, it'll hang loose, like we all should :) .
Thanks again.

Mike
09-09-2009, 21:20
Here's a question... Is the 'shielding' of this new cable connected to anything anywhere?

DaveK
09-09-2009, 21:32
Hi Mike,
The cable concerned is a Belden Audiophile cable off eBay at 19.99 per metre - I suspect it is rather overkill but I'm stuck with it now!!
It's 3 twisted cores (red, white and black) and each core is 7 twisted solid copper (it appears) wires. Wrapped around the 3 twisted cables is aluminium foil and wrapped around that it what appears to be a woven steel (colour) mesh, finally wrapped in red insulation. It is quite stiff but can be bent, whereupon it holds the bend. None of the two shielding items is connected to anything at any end at the moment.
Hope this helps you to help me.
Cheers,

Mike
09-09-2009, 21:55
A shield or screen on a cable is generally connected to earth at one end only for it to be effective. In your case I'd probably connect the screen and earth wire to the chassis of the TT and leave the screen unconnected and carefully insulated at the plug.

The problem with earths and turntables though, is you can often end up with hum problems... if that turns out to be the case just disconnect both at the TT end, tie them back and insulate carefully.

Another way (which would screen the cable but not the chassis) would be to leave the earth and screen disconnected (and insulated, again) at the TT end and connect the screen to the earth pin in the plug. You would have to make sure that no part of the screen could come into contact with the live or neutral pins in the plug though... And I'm not even sure that this would be legal!

And for Gods sake do neither unless you are competent to do so! Leave it to a sparky!

Dave Cawley
09-09-2009, 21:58
Why?

Mike
09-09-2009, 22:03
Why?

Why what?

Dave Cawley
09-09-2009, 22:06
Why what?

The existing power cable is only twin core flex whilst the new lead is three cores i.e. it has an earth cable.

Why do this?

Dave

Mike
09-09-2009, 22:08
Coz Marco recommended it... see first post in the thread! :lol:

Dave Cawley
09-09-2009, 22:10
Why Mike, do I have to keep asking? So tell me Mike?

Dave

Mike
09-09-2009, 22:15
Do you mean why did Marco recommend it?

I'd ask him! :confused:

Dave Cawley
09-09-2009, 22:17
Oh please............. Read post #12 again?

Dave

DaveK
09-09-2009, 22:17
And for Gods sake do neither unless you are competent to do so! Leave it to a sparky!

Hi Mike,
Thanks for the adsvise and the concern (son ;) ).
Worry not, my competence doesn't include such things, everything will be done for me by our local TV repair man. (And I've got circuit breakers on every house circuit!! :lolsign: ).
Cheers,

Mike
09-09-2009, 22:24
Oh please............. Read post #12 again?

Dave

OK....... if you read post #1 again? ;)

Marco
09-09-2009, 23:08
The existing power cable is only twin core flex whilst the new lead is three cores i.e. it has an earth cable.

Why do this?


Hi Dave,

1) The stock mains lead on the 1210 is of relatively poor quality. Experience tells me that it can easily be bettered, and thus performance improved.

2) Belden is very good cable, as used in many professional applications, and compared to 'audiophile' mains leads on the market is a total bargain. The Transparent Reference Powerlink mains lead I use, connected to my Timestep (and every other component in my system), costs 850! ;)

It's highly possible though that Dave's Belden *could* be better, given what happened with my (now sold) Transparent interconnects and the Mark Grant (Belden-based) ones I'm currently using instead... So I'm keen to see what type of benefits (if any) Dave hears.

I'm confident that he'll certainly obtain an upgrade from the stock mains lead on the Techie, but if its really significant then I intend to buy some of the Belden mains cable myself, make up some leads, and compare them to the Transparents. If it's better then I can rake in a fortune from the sale of the Transparents, just as I did when I sold my expensive interconnects and bought the Mark Grants! :eyebrows:

3) One of the benefits of any external T/T PSU, with an IEC connection, is that you can use a decent quality mains lead, instead of the piss-poor captive one normally supplied with your average turntable. Experience tells me that mains leads make a difference, and often a big one.

Hopefully that should explain my rationale for recommending the Belden to Dave :cool:

I hope it works out well for him - no doubt we'll hear all about it in due course! :lol:

Marco.

Mike
09-09-2009, 23:11
Got a link to this Belden stuff?

I'm looking to make some mains leads myself as it happens. :)

Marco
09-09-2009, 23:13
Here ya go, matey:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BELDEN-83803-Audiophile-Shielded-Mains-Power-cable_W0QQitemZ310116914627QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_C omputing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item48346895c3&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Looks like bloody good gear to me! :)

Marco.

Mike
09-09-2009, 23:18
Yeah, looks good stuff.

15.68/M from RS though. However!... you need to buy a 30m reel at 400.46 + VAT! :lol:

Marco
09-09-2009, 23:21
That's probably where the guy on Ebay is getting it from :)

What make/type of female IECs and 13A plugs are you going to get to make up your leads? Yes, those also make a difference!

Farnell do some good stuff - see here: http://uk.farnell.com/schurter/4782-0100/connector-iec-power-15a-250v/dp/1462701

Or if you want something 'fancier' like an Oyaide (highly recommended): http://www.vhaudio.com/connectors-ac.html#OyaideIEC

Marco.

Alex_UK
09-09-2009, 23:22
Slightly OT, but I bought this cable Silver & Gold (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SILVER-GOLD-Audiophile-Mains-Power-cable-1-metre_W0QQitemZ310102048273QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_C omputing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item483385be11&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262) from them for my amp - and very very impressed for the money - Mike, you will no doubt appreciate that each end of this cable is not tuppence ha'penny, so they're not "extracting the urine" with their profit margins...

Mike
09-09-2009, 23:23
What make/type of female IECs and 13A plugs are you going to get to make up your leads?

Furutech... I've already got em on my DIY mains leads, may as well recycle em. ;)

leo
09-09-2009, 23:25
I made an IEC lead with that stuff, its bloody well stiff! should provide you a little fun wiring it up:eyebrows:

Mike
09-09-2009, 23:29
Slightly OT, but I bought this cable Silver & Gold (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SILVER-GOLD-Audiophile-Mains-Power-cable-1-metre_W0QQitemZ310102048273QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_C omputing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item483385be11&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262) from them for my amp - and very very impressed for the money - Mike, you will no doubt appreciate that each end of this cable is not tuppence ha'penny, so they're not "extracting the urine" with their profit margins...

I forget what the wire is on those, I was going to use it in the past but the screening ain't good. It's more of an 'armoured cable' than screened one. And the screen should be connected to earth!

The Belden stuff is a proper foil and braid job. :)

leo
09-09-2009, 23:29
BTW some of the so called shielded stuff you see isn't that good tbh, I'd stay away from the types thats just steel braided , it looks a lot like that Kabel Lapp but isn't as good imo

leo
09-09-2009, 23:30
:lolsign:

Mike
09-09-2009, 23:31
BTW some of the so called shielded stuff you see isn't that good tbh, I'd stay away from the types thats just steel braided , it looks a lot like that Kabel Lapp but isn't as good imo

Snap! :) ;)

Dave Cawley
10-09-2009, 07:06
Hi Marco

That explains your reasoning, thank you. I really don't know why Mike was being so difficult, I suspect he didn't actually know, but did not want to admit it? I am never afraid of admitting I don't know something, that way I learn fast! Have you got a part number for the Belden, I know you might have given it before, but I'm a bit fuzzy this morning!!

Thanks

Dave

Marco
10-09-2009, 07:10
LOL... Too much Grolsch last night? :eyebrows:

Here's the link again, mate (part No included):

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BELDEN-83803-Audiophile-Shielded-Mains-Power-cable_W0QQitemZ310116914627QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_C omputing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item48346895c3&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

It might be an idea to make up some leads with this cable to supply with the Timestep - once you've tested it of course ;)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
10-09-2009, 07:30
Well done Marco!

I'll call my contact at Belden at coffee time, I'm sure we can get that price way down for A.O.S. members!

Thanks

Dave

Marco
10-09-2009, 07:34
Sounds interesting, Dave! Keep us posted :)

Incidentally, I can't take the credit for finding this cable - that's down to Dave K. He PM'd me with the link asking if I thought it'd be a good idea to fit to his Techie.

When I saw it, it took me all of 2 seconds to say "Yes"!

Marco.

Dave Cawley
10-09-2009, 07:37
It is wall to wall on the net too!

Dave

Marco
10-09-2009, 07:38
Is it? I had no idea :eyebrows:

It's the first time I've seen it. What are people saying about it then?

Marco.

Dave Cawley
10-09-2009, 07:44
It is bloody good, and can cost up to 30 a metre...............

Have a look yourself?

Click here (https://edeskv2.belden.com/Products/index.cfm?event=showproductdetail&partid=2946&ins=&cnum=0) for the "real" info?

Regards

Dave

Marco
10-09-2009, 07:53
Seem quite low capacitance?

Marco.

leo
10-09-2009, 07:54
Deleted link

DaveK
10-09-2009, 08:05
Hi Dave,
It's highly possible though that Dave's Belden *could* be better, given what happened with my (now sold) Transparent interconnects and the Mark Grant (Belden-based) ones I'm currently using instead... So I'm keen to see what type of benefits (if any) Dave hears.

I'm confident that he'll certainly obtain an upgrade from the stock mains lead on the Techie, but if its really significant then I intend to buy some of the Belden mains cable myself, make up some leads, and compare them to the Transparents.
I hope it works out well for him - no doubt we'll hear all about it in due course! :lol:

Marco.

Hi Marco,
Just catching up with the rapid progress on this thread so there may be other contributions from me later as I progress through it.
I'm afraid that I have to pour a bit of cold water on your plans to use me as a guinea pig :lolsign: . You will see that I am also fitting 'top notch' phono cables at the same time - how do you decide which, if any, improvement is down to the power lead and which is down to the phonos? :lolsign: . Ponder that one over your cornflakes this morning ;) .
Cheers,

Marco
10-09-2009, 08:11
Interesting link, Leo. I'm sure that the VH Audio is a good cable, but you can go on forever mate. What if that one's better than this one, or maybe that one is, or this one? Etc, etc... And the cost rises with every example looked at! ;)

I think with these things you just have to take a punt on something of 'requisite quality', and whatever you think will work best in a particular application that is also decent value for money. Then install it, turn the music up, and worry no more about mains leads :cool:

Otherwise you're on the la-la bus to neurosis!

Marco.

Marco
10-09-2009, 08:21
how do you decide which, if any, improvement is down to the power lead and which is down to the phonos? :lolsign: . Ponder that one over your cornflakes this morning.


Morning Dave,

LOL. If your chap is local, get him to do one of them first; then go home for a listen, and then get him to do the other, and listen again - simple ;)

If you're really 'keen' to educate yourself you'll go the extra mile! :ner:

Seriously though, I've pretty much judged the Belden, anyway, so it doesn't really matter. The main thing is that collectively your phono/mains leads shenanigans pays dividends in your system, which I'm sure it will :)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
10-09-2009, 08:23
I don't think 2 core will meet UK safety standards? I bet he junked the Belden because of it's extreme cost! I could be wrong, occasionally I am!

What phono cables are you going to use, and what connectors? Are you lead/tin or silver soldering. How are you going to make the junction? internally?

Regards

Dave

DaveK
10-09-2009, 08:36
Morning Dave,

LOL. If your chap is local, get him to do one of them first; then go home for a listen, and then get him to do the other, and listen again - simple ;). If you're really 'keen' to educate yourself you'll go the extra mile! :ner:
T'ain't going to happen Marco, sorry. Likely to double the price and time and, being a pensioner (;)), the former is limited.
Seriously though, I've pretty much judged the Belden, (based on what, might I as, and what is your conclusion?) anyway, so it doesn't really matter. The main thing is that collectively your phono/mains leads shenanigans pays dividends in your system, which I'm sure it will :) Hope you're right - watch this space - I shall be looking for a refund (from you!!) if it don't! :lol: .

Marco.



What phono cables are you going to use, and what connectors? Are you lead/tin or silver soldering. How are you going to make the junction? internally?

Is that addressed to me or ...... ?
Cheers,

leo
10-09-2009, 09:11
Interesting link, Leo. I'm sure that the VH Audio is a good cable, but you can go on forever mate. What if that one's better than this one, or maybe that one is, or this one? Etc, etc... And the cost rises with every example looked at! ;)

I think with these things you just have to take a punt on something of 'requisite quality', and whatever you think will work best in a particular application that is also decent value for money. Then install it, turn the music up, and worry no more about mains leads :cool:

Otherwise you're on the la-la bus to neurosis!

Marco.

I've been there a while ago tbh;) these days I get far bigger improvements with the electronics tweaking

Mainly posted the link incase anybody wants a fiddle

DaveK
10-09-2009, 09:23
Interesting link, Leo. I'm sure that the VH Audio is a good cable, but you can go on forever mate. What if that one's better than this one, or maybe that one is, or this one? Etc, etc... And the cost rises with every example looked at! ;)

I think with these things you just have to take a punt on something of 'requisite quality', and whatever you think will work best in a particular application that is also decent value for money. Then install it, turn the music up, and worry no more about mains leads :cool:

Otherwise you're on the la-la bus to neurosis!

Marco.

Hi Marco,
I'm NOT deliberately trying to be provocative here but why does the above philosophy apply to mains leads but not to other 'upgrades', like cartridges, i/c's, tonearms, speaker cables, speakers etc? :scratch: :confused: :scratch: :confused: .
Cheers,

leo
10-09-2009, 09:46
I don't think 2 core will meet UK safety standards? I bet he junked the Belden because of it's extreme cost! I could be wrong, occasionally I am!

What phono cables are you going to use, and what connectors? Are you lead/tin or silver soldering. How are you going to make the junction? internally?

Regards

Dave

The one on that site uses a separate ground wire wrapped around the main cable, its all then covered in that stretchy nylon braid
The one I built to try was safe but I've no idea if it would pass todays regs or not (probably not), I only wanted to try it out and had no intentions of selling it

Anyway I've now deleted the link just incase:)

Plugs I used was MK three pin mains and a Oyaide IEC, solder was lead/tin when it was easier to find before ROHS

Its rare I mess with cable much lately, mainly leaving it to others to faff about and post their results:lol:

Mike
10-09-2009, 11:03
I really don't know why Mike was being so difficult, I suspect he didn't actually know, but did not want to admit it?

Are you deliberately trying to wind me up, or just taking the piss? :steam:

Oh never mind, I can't be arsed....

Dave Cawley
10-09-2009, 11:50
Hi Leo

Probably for the best? Belden are getting back to me, RS sell it but at a huge cost. I have bought cable directly from Belden in the past and got a very good deal, provided I buy a whole reel!

The comments on cable, connectors and solder related to Dave's phono leads.

Regards

Dave

leo
10-09-2009, 13:05
Hi Leo

Probably for the best? Belden are getting back to me, RS sell it but at a huge cost. I have bought cable directly from Belden in the past and got a very good deal, provided I buy a whole reel!

The comments on cable, connectors and solder related to Dave's phono leads.

Regards

Dave

Hi Dave

Yes, I don't mind sharing/posting a few of the lower voltage electronic projects but I'm usually more cautious with anything direct mains

I don't think a lot of people would find that Belden practical to use anyway because its so damn stiff, certainly wouldn't plug a lead made from it into small light hifi components anyway

DaveK
10-09-2009, 13:09
The comments on cable, connectors and solder related to Dave's phono leads.
Regards
Dave
Hi Dave,
If I've pressed all the right buttons in the right order (a la Eric Morecambe) you should see the link below which will provide all the answers for you better and quicker than I could.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310165927166&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Cheers,

Dave Cawley
10-09-2009, 16:38
Hi Dave

That looks really good! Well done.

Regards

Dave

Marco
11-09-2009, 08:10
Hi Dave,

Sorry for the delay in replying - I had quite a bit of work on yesterday! :)


Me: Seriously though, I've pretty much judged the Belden...



(based on what, might I ask, and what is your conclusion?)


I should've thought that was obvious from my earlier remarks and those of others on this thread - I think of course it's excellent!! :smoking:

Put it this way, I've not heard a bad Belden cable yet and I suspect that it could outperform many very expensive 'audiophile' cables on the market, including possibly my Transparents.


Hope you're right - watch this space - I shall be looking for a refund (from you!!) if it don't!


Hehehe... If you don't like it, I'll buy the Belden from you! ;)


I'm NOT deliberately trying to be provocative here but why does the above philosophy apply to mains leads but not to other 'upgrades', like cartridges, i/c's, tonearms, speaker cables, speakers etc?


Dave, it's like Leo says, cables can only do so much in a hi-fi system - i.e. they can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, so once you've found ones which are of good quality and are 'adequate' for the job in their intended application, then there are other areas that when upgraded will offer far greater rewards such as the equipment itself or internal components in the circuit.

That's why these days I concentrate almost solely on the modification route now rather than changing the equipment itself. I am not far from being done with my system. An SP10 with a 12" arm, and perhaps some further mods to my DAC and preamp, and that should be it.

Neurosis, as I outlined before can certainly also apply to upgrading system components, so just like with cables one has to know when to stop before losing focus on what this mutually shared 'hobby' of ours is supposed to be about, and that's buying and enjoying music :cool:

Marco.

electric beach
05-11-2009, 16:15
Oooh - another cable party! I'm in!! :interesting:

I've ordered the 1 metre pre-made mains lead from the same Ebay site as the reel cable, which uses the Belden 83803. The connectors don't seem too bad and the construction will be better than mine - even if I were to stick a Wattgate Ferrari on as a juice-jump.
My current comparison mains leads are entry level: RA Yello's except for a couple of standard leads, so they shouldn't be difficult to better!
I do have Vertex AQ mains filtering though, so there's a decent foundation to build on and the potential to expose those nasty, imagined improvements. :lol::champagne:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Belden-83803-Mains-Power-Cable-SILVER-Plug-1-metre_W0QQitemZ310173085923QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_C omputing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item4837c1b0e3

electric beach
25-11-2009, 12:43
I've tried the cable for a couple of weeks but I'm not sure (keep trying to keep Marco's words to mind, trust my ears and not the expected performance based on the spec). I've tried it on all components but have settled on using it with the DAC, which has given the best improvement (read least negative effect!)

I notice:
1. When I adopted Mike's digital interconnect a tendency for treble harshness was removed - now it's back!
2. The soundstage is wider and more realistic in height (instruments and voices aren't floating in the air, more grounded).

These signature effects were the same on each component, but gave the DAC a bit more bite (:confused:)

I'd appreciate a second opinion if anyone actually makes their own cable from the Belden. Or any comment regarding hardening of the treble; do you think the cable is exposing an inherent system issue? I conclude not because the effect is the same regardless of it's location.

Damn! - I wanted to like this!! :doh: