Imaging and brightness ?

[hayche]

Is there a link?

My last system was mdac/croft integrated/tannoy dc6. It had beautiful imaging and soundstage with percussion hanging in front of me and floating around the soundstage, virtually no bass and bright. I ripped the system apart and wasted money before I realised it was the tannoys I had changed everything.

Now I have Musical fidelity v90 dac/rega brio r/epos k1. I have a great balanced sound with no brightness but the imaging is nothing like my last system. I now seem to have, and be very aware of left,right and centre (mono) in my system. I love the sound I have now and can listen to it forever but it would be nice to get some of that imaging back in the future with an upgrade ,If that is possible without brightness? It's a totally different system now so I do not know if it's any given component giving me the lesser imaging. Soft dome tweeter,brio or v90. Any ideas? Or is it a case of ,choose imaging and brightness or choose warmness and non fatiguing without the imaging? I do have basslines,drums and vocals ,basically anything panned centre mono suspended between my speakers so I do have decent imaging. Just no voodoo trickery. Pretty simple how I think vinyl would sound

Howard

[Tim]

Don't just lay the blame with the Tannoys, the MDAC is known to be bright and lively, which many people love - I couldn't get on with it at all and found it very fatiguing to listen to for long sessions. The MF V90 is a good DAC, but not very exciting or what I would call musically engaging. If you like what the Brio-R is giving you, you should really try a Rega DAC with it, you might I think be getting closer to what you like when it comes to imaging and a more realistic soundstage. If you can try one at home Howard, then it just might just put a smile on your face?

[hayche]

Thanks for the response Tim.

I was hoping the lack of trickery would come down to the dac and not the brio r ,or the speakers. The dac is the easiest upgrade for me and I live the brio sound. I have had a rega dac in the past and it was very lively with percussion imaging with the croft and tannoys. Local dealers all said the dc6 are bright which made me put the blame on them.
Maybe another mdac could be key for me as the epos speakers are quite laid back ,the rega could make it even more so. Mdac could bring it forward hopefully. :)

Cheers
Howard.

[Audio Advent]

My idea on imaging is that so much of the info the brain uses to set up that illusion is in the high-mid to treble region, where the wavelengths are the shortest, and also in phase relationships. I'd guess that by having a more prominent mid-high to treble, you make it easier for the ear/brain to hear these relationships and so set up the imaging illusion better.

More complicated than that of course with cross-overs changing phase relationships and cabinet's deflections too.

[Gazjam]

You can have imaging without brightness..just need a really resolving "realistic" sounding system.

All the detail, all the zing and imaging you could want...but not in your face.
Hard to get there, takes a good system that does that without being artificially accenuated.

Had the Rega dac in a previous system with the Brio-R.
The Rega was a lot. Better than the Mdac for me because it gave NATURAL spark to the music as opposed to the Mdacs digital glare.
Never got on with the Mdac anytime I tried it because of this.

[Audio Advent]

Speaker positioning can have a big effect on imaging too and will be different for each pair.. difficult to know if a change in speaker imaging is down to the inherent sound of the speaker or the different requirements to have it sounding it's best.

[337alant]

Capacitors in the signal path is where its at for me :eyebrows:

Alan

[Barry]

Speaker positioning can have a big effect on imaging too and will be different for each pair.. difficult to know if a change in speaker imaging is down to the inherent sound of the speaker or the different requirements to have it sounding it's best.

I agree. Howard, have you tried altering the angle of the speakers with respect to your listening position? It could make all the difference.

[tiguan]

I agree. Howard, have you tried altering the angle of the speakers with respect to your listening position? It could make all the difference.
In addition with that I recommend to check tweeter height relative to ears at listening (sitting) position.
Some bookshelf are more sensitive to that.

[Reffc]

I agree. Howard, have you tried altering the angle of the speakers with respect to your listening position? It could make all the difference.

+2

If you had it before and you don't have it now and the only change (that is since you changed everything else!) was the speakers, there's your clue.

You can have imaging and bass, the two are not in any way related. Bass is to do with your speaker's design and LF extension capability and imaging is to do with several aspects of replay. These include the way a recording itself is mastered, mid and HF resolution, speaker's off axis and driver relative phase response, and channel separation design and performance of your source and amplification components. It's also to do with your room and speaker interaction.

Before spending any more money where it may not be needed, here's a few tips:

1. See if you can place speakers so the tweeter is at ear height when you are seated, and that there is nothing directly between the speaker baffle plane or between speakers and you.
2. Move speakers if possible so that they are well away from side walls. If you cannot do that, try to have them so distance between side and rear walls is unequal.
3. As Barry suggests, toe in the speakers so you listen directly in the tweeter axis.

My experience of just about all modern MF DACs and CDPs is of brightness (that I personally couldn't live with) and because the Tannoys you mention can be a little forward sounding, careful partnering would have been recommended, so MF front ends would not have been my personal choice here, but you are where you are so trying to make the best of your current set up is wise before deciding on the slippery kit merry-go-round options;)

[YNWaN]

'Imaging and brightness - is there a link' in short, no there isn't.

[Macca]

My guess would be that the Tannoys were better speakers but had a flatter, more accurate response than the Epos which probably are punchier in the mid bass. Neither speaker will deliver proper deep bass since they are way too small so lack of emphasised low midrange plus better overall quality and design gave the 'out of the box sound' you liked with the Tannoy.

In short it is a trade-off. It is one you don't have to make but that means much bigger,better and therefore potentially more expensive speakers. Which will also need to work well in your room.

My own preference for the trade off would be the toppier, bass-light sound with the boxes dissapearing - I'll sacrifice a bit of perceived bass weight for that since I find it is easier to forget you are listening to a mechanical device.

I also think there is a difference between toppy and bright. Toppy sounds fine but lacks perceived bass weight. But if someone describes a system as 'bright' or 'fatiguing' - the two often go hand in hand - I would say the cause is more likely mid-range distortion than a treble peak. And mid-range distortion is probably not the fault of the speaker but what is upstream.

[Reffc]

My guess would be that the Tannoys were better speakers but had a flatter, more accurate response than the Epos which probably are punchier in the mid bass. Neither speaker will deliver proper deep bass since they are way too small so lack of emphasised low midrange plus better overall quality and design gave the 'out of the box sound' you liked with the Tannoy.

In short it is a trade-off. It is one you don't have to make but that means much bigger,better and therefore potentially more expensive speakers. Which will also need to work well in your room.

My own preference for the trade off would be the toppier, bass-light sound with the boxes dissapearing - I'll sacrifice a bit of perceived bass weight for that since I find it is easier to forget you are listening to a mechanical device.

I also think there is a difference between toppy and bright. Toppy sounds fine but lacks perceived bass weight. But if someone describes a system as 'bright' or 'fatiguing' - the two often go hand in hand - I would say the cause is more likely mid-range distortion than a treble peak. And mid-range distortion is probably not the fault of the speaker but what is upstream.

Not quite so sure about the bit in bold Martin. Most sources are pretty much spot on with FR these days. In fact, it's almost unheard of to have high midrange distortion in most digital sources. I have however come across plenty of speakers (including big name brands) which shocking mid distortion, mostly due to crappy (ie cheap and profitable) crossovers where little thought or attention has been put into relative phase integration between drivers but also because of a lift at crossover points in the mids where it's most noticeable. Not saying that's the case here, but it certainly isn't uncommon.

[Macca]

Most sources are pretty much spot on with FR these days. In fact, it's almost unheard of to have high midrange distortion in most digital sources. .

I agree but the source is not the only thing upstream of the loudspeaker. The interaction between the source and the amplification, and the cables, can sometimes throw up this issue IME.
Also IME you can put cheap but competent speakers (say a Wharfedale Diamond for example) on the end of a set up that does not have the problems and get a sweet, distortion free sound.
But I agree the culprit can sometimes be the loudspeaker

[struth]

Better bright than dull and uninspiring neutrality.

[Audio Advent]

Better bright than dull and uninspiring neutrality.

How can neutrality be uninspiring per se? Nuetrality means you're hearing the balance of frequencies as intended.

If it's uninspiring, then it's not to do with the frequency response, it's to do with other things.

That's in general though.. every person's hearing differs! So if you need the mid's more promentant for you to hear it as neutral to your brain, for example, then so be it.

[awkwardbydesign]

I haven't seen anywhere on this thread which Tannoys they are. In my experience point source speakers tend to image better than spread source (is that a thing?) speakers. So single driver or dual-concentrics may well be better. Brightness is another matter entirely.

[Macca]

It's in the o/p - Tannoy DC6 which is a small dual-concentric.

[walpurgis]

Not all smaller Tannoys are forward in balance. The System 800 nearfield monitor images beautifully, has an even presentation and I've never heard them sound overbright. They have more weight and depth than the six inch units too. If you enjoyed the imaging you were getting perhaps a pair would give you what you want. They are very good.

[awkwardbydesign]

It's in the o/p - Tannoy DC6 which is a small dual-concentric.
Ah, sorry. I missed that, it's all the lower case stuff. Bloody texting generation! :steam:

[hayche]

Thanks for all the help folks.
It was the speaker positioning. Angled towards me I get a lot more magic happening.
I did have the speakers angled towards me not long ago with a creek amp and it sounded awful. I swapped the creek for a brio and it sounded great with slight toe in but lacked the magic.
The imaging is not as good as the tannoys but it is good enough for me now ,for a while! ;)
No brightness and a well rounded enjoyable sound with bass ,certainly not trouser flapping but nice to have some balance.
I tried the DC6 with 3 different dacs and 2 amps and could not tame the brightness.

Thanks
Howard

[agk]

Yup, imo 99.99% of speaks need toe in. So far the only ones I've found that didn't were Kan 1.

[michaelgb]

Yup, imo 99.9% of speaks need toe in. So far the only ones I've found that didn't were Kan 1.

Vandersteens require very little toe in too.

[Audio Advent]

Ah, sorry. I missed that, it's all the lower case stuff. Bloody texting generation! :steam:

? Typing surely? Some people have been typing fast on BBS and chat forums for decades and so the unnecessaries get dropped for speed.

[agk]

Bugger speed. I'm a fan of grammar, punctuation and the English language.

[hayche]

Imaging is as good as the tannoys now. The system is far far superior. It's amazing what a few millimetres can do !