FS: Trans-fi Terminator T3Pro

[cvision123]

I would like to sell my Trans-fi Terminator T3Pro bought in December 2013.

The tonearm is in very good working condition. Due to a change in living environment, I can hide the air tank and suppress the noise of the air-pump, and, thus, have to change to pivot tonearm. In my limited exposure to analog playback, I think that this tonearm and the Denon DL-103R (shown in the photos but not included with the tonearm) make wonderful sounds.

The base was made to fit Rega armboard on my Acoustic Solid Machine Small. If you contact Vic at Trans-fi Audio, other base can be had to fit your armboard. The air-pump is not very noisy but it is audible when no music being played.

Price: 450£ + shipping with tracking number from Sweden.

http://s172.photobucket.com/user/tankhoa2/library/
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w32/tankhoa2/BD7423F5-A866-4EA8-AC47-98B72AD261BE_zpsvlrmisyp.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w32/tankhoa2/01135BFD-B405-4E02-AEF7-DDDE6B33B5D6_zpssueaepdm.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w32/tankhoa2/476862C7-3062-4E27-936E-0264D5CC6C23_zpskvpg96mt.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w32/tankhoa2/AD8353E0-58B3-491D-96E2-1385328B7064_zpsb74gj5yy.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w32/tankhoa2/AD8353E0-58B3-491D-96E2-1385328B7064_zpsb74gj5yy.jpg

[struth]

Bet that would look good on my thorens

[wiicrackpot]

Ali boy, thats got your name written all over it, go on you know you want to. :cool:

[flapland]

Has anyone made a SME mount for a trans-fi. There is a bit of me fancies giving it a try on a SME 20/2 especially for the price it is selling for.

[southall-1998]

I know nowt about turntables and tonearms. But that T3Pro looks impressive!

S.

[paul(555)]

PM sent.

[Rick E]

Bet that would look good on my thorens

They look good on anything, but you'd need to make sure your springs can take the weight. It's a heavy arm.

[Rick E]

Has anyone made a SME mount for a trans-fi. There is a bit of me fancies giving it a try on a SME 20/2 especially for the price it is selling for.

Trans-fi will make you any arm board you want. Excellent to deal with.

[flapland]

Trans-fi will make you any arm board you want. Excellent to deal with.

I suspected as much. I think another Paul may have pulled the trigger and who can blame him.

[Rick E]

I suspected as much. I think another Paul may have pulled the trigger and who can blame him.

There might be another along shortly (wink) with 4 wands.:D

[Spectral Morn]

I was tempted myself but I am pretty much committed to going down a different road re a new tonearm.



Regards Neil

[struth]

They look good on anything, but you'd need to make sure your springs can take the weight. It's a heavy arm.

Could it not be mounted on the plinth? or off board?

[Rick E]

Could it not be mounted on the plinth? or off board?

I don't know how you'd get on with a fixed arm over a bouncy platter. Not something I'd do tbh. I've seen a T3 on a Source deck, but they have a 5 spring system rather than the 3 of the Thorens and Linn.

[Spectral Morn]

I don't know how you'd get on with a fixed arm over a bouncy platter. Not something I'd do tbh. I've seen a T3 on a Source deck, but they have a 5 spring system rather than the 3 of the Thorens and Linn.

Needs to be mounted on the suspended chassis, other wise it won't work.


Regards Neil

[Rick E]

Needs to be mounted on the suspended chassis, other wise it won't work.


Regards Neil

I'd say they are best suited to a rigid deck. I had one on a Interspace, and the one I have now is destined for the 401 or the Spacedeck. Brilliant arm though.

[struth]

Thanks all, thought that but never hurts to ask :)

[Spectral Morn]

I'd say they are best suited to a rigid deck. I had one on a Interspace, and the one I have now is destined for the 401 or the Spacedeck. Brilliant arm though.

Probably true, the Salvation is a non suspended turntable, though I recall seeing one on an Oracle Delphi but it has a selection of different tension springs available so can be balanced ok with a heavy tonearm. My initial comment was in response to Grant's idea.

Anyway I hope Paul enjoys it, nice buy. If this had come up a week ago I would have given it ago on my Technics.


Regards Neil

[Gazjam]

Work great on a 401?
Ali...?

[Ali Tait]

Ali boy, thats got your name written all over it, go on you know you want to. :cool:

I do, but no spare readies just now. :-(

[wiicrackpot]

Work great on a 401?
Ali...?
Supposedly so, some say the bass is the only area that lacks a smidgeon compared to a top notch gimbal arm,
thats where the idlers like Garrard's and Lenco's are strongest hence balancing it out.

I do, but no spare readies just now. :-(
Too bad, maybe next time. :)

[Clive]

Probably true, the Salvation is a non suspended turntable, though I recall seeing one on an Oracle Delphi but it has a selection of different tension springs available so can be balanced ok with a heavy tonearm.

In traditional (spring) terms this is true....being pedantic, there is now some suspension in that Salvation comes with magnetic feet which levitate the deck. The bearing is also magnetic, considering the slate plinth and 9kg platter the magnets are really rather strong. Don't get any flesh caught between the magnets when fitting them!

[awkwardbydesign]

I thought I recall seeing one on an Oracle Delphi but it has a selection of different tension springs available so can be balanced ok with a heavy tonearm. My initial comment was in response to Grant's idea.
Regards Neil
My concern would be more that the arm movement would unbalance the deck. The moving part is considerably heavier than on a pivoted arm, no? Otherwise I would love one; maybe on the GL75 when (when!) it's finished?

[Clive]

My concern would be more that the arm movement would unbalance the deck. The moving part is considerably heavier than on a pivoted arm, no? Otherwise I would love one; maybe on the GL75 when (when!) it's finished?
I can't work out if that could be a problem for a lightly sprung deck but bear in mind the weight of the wand and carrier is taken by the arm mount, it doesn't transfer across the records though there may be a slight leverage effect, I'd have thought it would be negligible.

[cvision123]

I can't find the link to the weight of the tonearm but from my memory when I looked deeply into it, it weighs around 820g.
I don't have any experience with suspended turntables so I can't say for sure. However, there are various happy users with suspended turntables (http://www.trans-fi.com/clientscorner.htm).

In my experience, the setup is not difficult and it is kind of setup and forget (I just came to the LP playback world about 1.5 years ago without any previous knowledge but I'm happy to learn :-) ). About two months ago, I did some experiments with changing the azimuth and the results were amazing. But it's worth noting that the azimuth adjustment is possible but not in a very convenience way.

[Clive]

I was interested re the weight of the T3Pro, it turns out it's not particularly heavy. At 820g it's heavier than the SME V (720g) though the SME V 12" is 815g. The T3Pro is lighter than the OL Illustrious (850g), OL Conqueror (950g).

[paul(555)]

Another buyer interested apparently, so not for me this time it seems.

[Spectral Morn]

Another buyer interested apparently, so not for me this time it seems.

That's a shame, maybe it was listed for sale elsewhere too.


Regards Neil

[Rick E]

Does that 820g include the arm board and pillar? It's a lump of an arm to stick on a suspended deck.

They are almost fit and forget though. You have to remember that the pump draws in impurities from the air and gradually deposits them onto the bearing surfaces, which after time can cause friction. A quick wipe with IPA fixes it, but worth mention.
Also worth mention is the noise from the pump. It's a basic aquarium pump, feeding a collector, before entering the arm. I have mine in the next room, so the hum doesn't annoy. But if it's in the same room...

[cvision123]

I'm in communication with member disarmamant here, not elsewhere :-)

[Clive]

Does that 820g include the arm board and pillar? It's a lump of an arm to stick on a suspended deck.

They are almost fit and forget though. You have to remember that the pump draws in impurities from the air and gradually deposits them onto the bearing surfaces, which after time can cause friction. A quick wipe with IPA fixes it, but worth mention.
Also worth mention is the noise from the pump. It's a basic aquarium pump, feeding a collector, before entering the arm. I have mine in the next room, so the hum doesn't annoy. But if it's in the same room...

I've checked, the 820g does not include the armboard or pillar. Armboards are part the deck, any arm will need one. The pillar may not be required, this depends on the deck. Yes the arm looks big vs some pivoted arms but it doesn't need a high mass counterweight so a lot weight is saved there.

I too have the pump in the next door room. It is possible to box it in such a way that it's quiet, the next room was easy for me to do so that's what I chose.

[awkwardbydesign]

bear in mind the weight of the wand and carrier is taken by the arm mount, it doesn't transfer across the records
Erm, I think you're mistaken there!

[Clive]

Erm, I think you're mistaken there!
Of course the VTF traverses the record but the weight of the wand and carrier applies to the pillar supporting the arm. As I mentioned there may be some leverage involved but this will be minimal. Weight can only be taken by either stylus or arm pillar and I assure you it's not taken by the stylus (I have measured this across the platter). Are we talking at crossed purposes here?

[awkwardbydesign]

Of course the VTF traverses the record but the weight of the wand and carrier applies to the pillar supporting the arm. As I mentioned there may be some leverage involved but this will be minimal. Weight can only be taken by either stylus or arm pillar and I assure you it's not taken by the stylus (I have measured this across the platter). Are we talking at crossed purposes here?
Quite possibly! I mean the the weight as seen by the springs on the TT legs. As the carrier moves across, the CofG WILL move. Imagine holding a heavy weight in your hands close to your chest. Now extend your arms, and you will fall over as the CofG (or mass) goes past your toes! Unless you lean backwards, of course (look at how a pregnant woman stands).
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS6hcvu2l_9CrD-YUnrWKxMannZo1vBvev8q2R-cSThtPX7un2C

[Clive]

Quite possibly! I mean the the weight as seen by the springs on the TT legs. As the carrier moves across, the CofG WILL move. Imagine holding a heavy weight in your hands close to your chest. Now extend your arms, and you will fall over as the CofG (or mass) goes past your toes! Unless you lean backwards, of course (look at how a pregnant woman stands).
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS6hcvu2l_9CrD-YUnrWKxMannZo1vBvev8q2R-cSThtPX7un2C
That's what I meant by leverage. The wand and carrier weight just over 80g, then's there's a cartridge so the total weight should be under 90g. The movement of this weight by 8cm will exert some leverage on the manifold but in practical terms it's inconsequential or at least it seems this way as no one has ever complained about the issue to my knowledge. You could set the suspension to be balanced with the carrier in a central position, ie mid-way over an LP - but I don't believe anyone is bothering to do that. What the developer of the arm does is to theorise up front then try out various solutions to find out what works and what doesn't. It's easy to dismiss an idea because in theory there could be a problem when in practice it's a non-issue.

BTW initial development for the arm was carried with a Michell Gyro with no issues.

[awkwardbydesign]

OK. If it would cause no problems, that's good to know. The CofG will change, though, but if it's too small to matter then the arm may be worth considering. However, the lid on the Delphi only just clears the top of the Decca arm, so I would have to have a new lid, with all the problems the extra weight of THAT would create, mainly for the sprung hinges. And of course, my automatic arm lift (for when I fall asleep!) would no longer work. :(
And before you ask, no I won't forgo the lid.

[Audio Advent]

Quite possibly! I mean the the weight as seen by the springs on the TT legs. As the carrier moves across, the CofG WILL move. Imagine holding a heavy weight in your hands close to your chest. Now extend your arms, and you will fall over as the CofG (or mass) goes past your toes! Unless you lean backwards, of course (look at how a pregnant woman stands).
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS6hcvu2l_9CrD-YUnrWKxMannZo1vBvev8q2R-cSThtPX7un2C

If you play with a normal pivoted arm that has come straight off a deck with the couterweight still as set up for playing records, you'll find that they all fall forwards and are not balanced within the footprint of the arm mounting so they are always pulling the suspension slightly forwards, more so if they have an integrated arm rest and lift mechanism.

You could argue the Transfi is much better balanced than this because the whole thing with sled at the start of a record can balance on the footprint of a penny according to the photos here: http://www.trans-fi.com/t3proorderformpricing.htm so you'd probably get halfway though a side before the arm is as unbalanced as a pivoted arm is from the outset. I'd hazard a guess that the shift in cog even with the cart mounted will stay within the footprint of the arm mounting for a fair while whilst playing a record because the mounting looks to be pretty wide.

Setting up suspension on a deck for perfect bounce is always about compromise as the cart moves across the record and I don't think the Transfi would be any different in this regard, perhaps even be better due to the better balance from the outset, certainly I'd guess the difference between start and end of a side would be much worse with a 12" arm, although not many suspended decks can take 12" arms anyway..

[awkwardbydesign]

If you look at the effective mass of a pivoted arm (Mission 774; as I have one of these, and can't see the figures for the Decca), 5.5gm plus cart, this is what moves across the record. If you balance it at zero playing weight, there will be no movement of mass. The Transfi is apparently 80gm plus cart, which is what moves across.
If I balance my Decca on it's base, the arm WILL drop due to the 1.8gm playing weight, but will still stand upright! Looking at the Transfi, if it will balance on a penny at the start of the record, it won't at the end, not with 80gm moving!

[Spectral Morn]

When I had an Eminent Technology ET2 linear/air bearing arm on my Oracle Delphi I always set it up with a record in place, clamp on and the arm half way along its air guide, that way I tried to balance the suspension for the mid way position and as far as I know that worked well and I never had any issues, except those that come about because of an arm with no friction. I sneezed once and arm and cart flew across the record, no damage done but it was a scary moment.



Regards Neil

[awkwardbydesign]

Ah, thanks, that helps. I'm happy with my understanding of the theoretical problems, but if you have had experience of the practical applications, that is more valuable. Just need the money and a way to overcome all the other problems.:doh:

[Rick E]

Ah, thanks, that helps. I'm happy with my understanding of the theoretical problems, but if you have had experience of the practical applications, that is more valuable. Just need the money and a way to overcome all the other problems.:doh:

You are overlooking a very important factor regarding leverage.

The sled rides on an air cushion. So the full weight of the sled/arm/cart is never fully attached to the lower half of the arm.

[cvision123]

Thanks for all the interests.

The tonearm is sold to a member of this forum :-).

[Audio Advent]

You are overlooking a very important factor regarding leverage.

The sled rides on an air cushion. So the full weight of the sled/arm/cart is never fully attached to the lower half of the arm.

The forces still act due to Newton's third law, i.e. the pressure of the air pushes down on the arm as much as the mass of the sled+cart would that the air is supporting.

[walpurgis]

Yup! :thumbsup:

[Audio Advent]

If you look at the effective mass of a pivoted arm (Mission 774; as I have one of these, and can't see the figures for the Decca), 5.5gm plus cart, this is what moves across the record. If you balance it at zero playing weight, there will be no movement of mass. The Transfi is apparently 80gm plus cart, which is what moves across.
If I balance my Decca on it's base, the arm WILL drop due to the 1.8gm playing weight, but will still stand upright! Looking at the Transfi, if it will balance on a penny at the start of the record, it won't at the end, not with 80gm moving!

There will be movement of the overall centre of gravity of the arm, in an arc somewhere.

Effective mass only takes into account everything cartridge side of the bearings.. whereas the "leverage" on the subchassis from the arm in total includes the whole twisting force as experienced by the arm's mounting and the possible effect (negligable anyway) on the subchassis and therefore the suspension. The TransFi's mounting looks to be much wider than most and so the cog looks unlikely to fall outside of that mounting footprint. My experience of many arms (not all though) is that the cog of an arm even when set-up for playing a record, still falls outside of the mounting footprint - they need to be bolted down to the subchassis to not fall over.

Anyway, it's all negligable in practice.

[Audio Advent]

Thanks for all the interests.

The tonearm is sold to a member of this forum :-).

Booo! Would love to try one one day. I'll have to start by earning more money.

Hope they enjoy it!

[awkwardbydesign]

I think you're still misunderstanding the forces involved. It doesn't matter how big (or small) the mounting is, the weight still moves and acts downwards.
And with a pivoted arm set to zero there is no change of CofG. Try it sometime.
But anyway, enough thread hi-jacking, congratulations to Khoa on the sale. :D

[Rick E]

The forces still act due to Newton's third law, i.e. the pressure of the air pushes down on the arm as much as the mass of the sled+cart would that the air is supporting.

I shall consider myself better educated. Clever bloke that Newton.:)

[Audio Advent]

I think you're still misunderstanding the forces involved. It doesn't matter how big (or small) the mounting is, the weight still moves and acts downwards.
And with a pivoted arm set to zero there is no change of CofG. Try it sometime.
But anyway, enough thread hi-jacking, congratulations to Khoa on the sale. :D

Now it's sold we can threadjack even more! haha..

Definately there will be a sideways shift of cog as a pivoted arm moves in it's arc - it moves into a place where there never used to be any part of the arm.

When you say you think I'm misunderstanding the forces involved, you might be right as I think about it more - just occured to me that I should be thinking in 3D with a mental image of an x/y/z axis coming out from the whole suspended system's current cog. Thinking that way, I see what you mean and one thing that comes to mind is the Oracle Mk1 subchassis balance weight mounted to the underside of the subchassis. It being mounted under the chassis gives it more torque than at the hoizontal plane of the cog itself...

Easiest thing to do to get an idea is to place a bubble level on the platter and move the arm around and also move a weight around on the platter to see how much it moves. Might do that - easier to understand via practical methods, for me anyway.

[awkwardbydesign]

Now it's sold we can threadjack even more! haha..

Definately there will be a sideways shift of cog as a pivoted arm moves in it's arc - it moves into a place where there never used to be any part of the arm.


Not if the playing weight is zero. Remember, the counterweight goes in the opposite direction. And at 1.8gm (my playing weight) that's all that changes position. With the Transfi the sled is not counterbalanced, so the whole 80+gm is in play! It all depends on how sensitive the TT suspension is.

[Clive]

All this theorising in splendid isolation is fine, the broader reality with this arm is that it's been successfully used on a very wide spectrum of decks over the 9 years life of it's current design concept, even the dastardly and pernickety LP12 works with it. The arm is compatible with high and low compliance cartridges and vertical inertia is very low vs pivoted arms. Very accurate setup is really easy to achieve, much more so than with pivoted arms. The arm doesn't fit the typical view of what arm should be like and like anything, it's not for everyone. The arm does require some personal re-calibration for setup and use it but it's entirely logical straightforward. Whoever has purchased the arm on this for sale thread I'm sure has a bargain as the full new price of the arm is a huge bargain already considering it's performance.

[awkwardbydesign]

And I'm nervously waiting for someone to come along and prove I'm talking rubbish. Again. :lol:

[disarmamant]

Whoever has purchased the arm on this for sale thread I'm sure has a bargain as the full new price of the arm is a huge bargain already considering it's performance.

Twas me :)

I will be using the arm on a Palmer 2.5 turntable which is currently fitted with an SME IV and a Koetsu Black Goldline.

I already have some experience with air bearing tone arms of the angle slider variety, having made one myself based on Ladergaards design. I had it mounted on a Garrard 401. I made the brass knife edge bearing parts myself on a CNC lathe.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/51320770/Air%20arm/arm%201_web.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/51320770/Air%20arm/bearing%201_web.jpg

[Clive]

Twas me :)

I will be using the arm on a Palmer 2.5 turntable which is currently fitted with an SME IV and a Koetsu Black Goldline.

I already have some experience with air bearing tone arms of the angle slider variety, having made one myself based on Ladergaards design. I had it mounted on a Garrard 401. I made the brass knife edge bearing parts myself on a CNC lathe.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/51320770/Air%20arm/arm%201_web.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/51320770/Air%20arm/bearing%201_web.jpg
Hi Martin, it sounds like you're very well equipped to get the best out of the arm. I'm sure you'll enjoy it! :cool:

Cheers,

Clive

[disarmamant]

Hi Martin, it sounds like you're very well equipped to get the best out of the arm. I'm sure you'll enjoy it! :cool:

Cheers,

Clive

Thanks Clive - I'm looking forward to trying it out. I'm sure it will be better engineered than my home made effort. As you probably know keeping it level is a challenge :)

[awkwardbydesign]

As you probably know keeping it level is a challenge :)
That was my worry with the Oracle.

[Clive]

Thanks Clive - I'm looking forward to trying it out. I'm sure it will be better engineered than my home made effort. As you probably know keeping it level is a challenge :)
I too started out with a pure Ladergaard which was tricky to level. I run my system in my cellar, the 1906 floor only has a thin skim of concrete which results in the deck moving fractionally due to temp and humidity. With the T3Pro the level adjustments are very quick and easy to achieve. To make it even easier I use a very accurate round bubble level on the manifold; when checking the specs of these things I found their accuracy/sensitivity can vary by a factor of 10.

[disarmamant]

I run my system in my cellar, the 1906 floor only has a thin skim of concrete which results in the deck moving fractionally due to temp and humidity.

I found humidity to be a factor in keeping my Ladergaard level on the 401. The DIY plinth was laminated birch ply, and the base of the Ladergaard arm Ash wood. The plinth and/or the arm base would move very slightly depending on (what I put it down to be) the humidity. I could find no other explanation for it periodically going out of level.

I'm hoping it's going to be easier on the Palmer with the easier level adjustment of the TP3, although the plinth is also laminated ply, so I may find a similar problem.

[Clive]

I found humidity to be a factor in keeping my Ladergaard level on the 401. The DIY plinth was laminated birch ply, and the base of the Ladergaard arm Ash wood. The plinth and/or the arm base would move very slightly depending on (what I put it down to be) the humidity. I could find no other explanation for it periodically going out of level.

I'm hoping it's going to be easier on the Palmer with the easier level adjustment of the TP3, although the plinth is also laminated ply, so I may find a similar problem.
i did use birch ply for my 301 originally but have only used slate since then. Hopefully you'll find with the T3P the same as I do in that I only need to re-level every 4 to 6 weeks. At least the arm is made of aluminium so that is one culprit removed.

[Clive]

That was my worry with the Oracle.
Richard, I don't believe levelness would be a problem traversing a single record, as you'll have seen it's more of a medium term tweak which can need attending to.

[Audio Advent]

Not if the playing weight is zero. Remember, the counterweight goes in the opposite direction. And at 1.8gm (my playing weight) that's all that changes position.

Ok... I know what you're saying.

Perhaps what I'm thinking about is not necessarily the cog and so how the suspension is balanced but where the masses (the cart at one end and the counterweight at the other) are positioned in relation to the springs and their axis of perfect bounce set-up. Again, not about actually tilting the suspension but about perfect bounce set-up on a suspended deck. But I guess you could say that about changing from 180gm vinyl to some wafer thin thing from the 80s.. and who really adjusts VTA for every record in reality? Probably going to cause more sound change than anything balance related.

Ignore me, just thinking out loud and not thinking about it for very long at a time either :D