View Full Version : help please on mission 774 set up
well ive spent most of the day sodding about with this arm trying to align my denon dl-160.
ive tried numerous arc protractors and none of them will line up,the arm is mounted at 215.4 as is stated in the manual but because the there are no slots as such in the head i cant twist the cartridge which is what it needs. ive also tried moving the arm wand back and forth and still cant get it right.
what am i doing wrong? got a banging headache to match too!
RobbieGong
02-05-2015, 20:21
well ive spent most of the day sodding about with this arm trying to align my denon dl-160.
ive tried numerous arc protractors and none of them will line up,the arm is mounted at 215.4 as is stated in the manual but because the there are no slots as such in the head i cant twist the cartridge which is what it needs. ive also tried moving the arm wand back and forth and still cant get it right.
what am i doing wrong? got a banging headache to match too!
Feel for ya Jamie, been there, done that. Arm / cart set up is a proper PITA. But when it comes together.............................
Geoff's your man for 774's Jamie.... think he has 4 of 'em :lol: As said b4, I use a geodisc; think i am the only person here that does, but, hey, it works for me. not cheap but it seems to work and is easy to use once you get the knack of lining up the bar with the pivot and sello-taping it securely to the deck so it doesnt move.
walpurgis
02-05-2015, 20:50
I can't understand why there should be a problem. What I have had in the past, is alignment protractors that just never give results that work out quite right. Try a different one. The simpler in design the better.
awkwardbydesign
03-05-2015, 07:53
If you really can't get it to work (I have a 774 and had no real problem), mount it at a different distance. You do have a moveable mounting plate don't you?
no mate its just a plate fixed to the tonearm board,ive got it to line up ok with a Stevenson protractor,currently listening to how it sounds,
what mounting distance would you use then? its at 215.4 at the moment,i cant increase this as the wire connector block underneath fouls the sub chassis.
walpurgis
03-05-2015, 09:47
If you've got it aligned and it's playing OK, I'd say there's no problem. I've had slightly varied mounting positions on different TTs and it all adjusted out fine in the end. If you're using the DL-160 and other carts of similar compliance, a bit of damping may be beneficial. I use a degree of damping all the time, even with the high compliance ADCs.
yes geoff its starting to come together now,i was gonna ask you about the bath/silicone and paddles. where can i source the right fluid from?
im liking it so far though,sounds nice.
walpurgis
03-05-2015, 10:03
I use this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/311340171108?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
But if you want something fancier:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131497313715?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
They do a low viscosity one too.
I reckon Audio Origami could probably fix you up if you rang them.
I tend to use higher viscosity fluids and use a smaller paddle. The STP is just about right with a medium paddle.
I expect I can make you a paddle if you're stuck.
walpurgis
03-05-2015, 11:28
I just made a 774 damper paddle out of brazing rod. It looks OK in its brassy finish. The gauge is I'd say somewhere between a small and medium, so probably ideal for starting off with. Let me know if you need it.
wicked,yes i would like one please as i dont have any. i will pm you my address.
walpurgis
03-05-2015, 11:59
OK matey! :)
awkwardbydesign
03-05-2015, 13:19
I use this site for silicone fluid. He takes for ever and won't answer emails, but when I ordered the stuff it did arrive. Eventually! http://www.turntablebasics.com/
And I also made a paddle, from stainless welding rod.
well after some more tweeking the stevenson alignment is all i can get, using the others i can get it to line up on the arc fine but when it comes to the grid alignment they all need the cartridge to twist,ie making the offset angle bigger,maybe thats why the later arms had the mounting holes drilled through to allow you to do just that.
to be fair maybe im being to over the top as it does sound fine as it is,certainly better than the rb300 thats for sure.
walpurgis
03-05-2015, 16:23
Jamie. Don't forget to PM me with your details if you want that paddle. I've located some STP in my workshop and bunged some in a small bottle. I'll send that along too. It'll work just fine.
well after some more tweeking the stevenson alignment is all i can get, using the others i can get it to line up on the arc fine but when it comes to the grid alignment they all need the cartridge to twist,ie making the offset angle bigger,maybe thats why the later arms had the mounting holes drilled through to allow you to do just that.
to be fair maybe im being to over the top as it does sound fine as it is,certainly better than the rb300 thats for sure.
It is a bit strange to me as i had no issue with my Mission 774 (the same as your) at all when it came to cartridge alignment.
Jamie. Don't forget to PM me with your details if you want that paddle. I've located some STP in my workshop and bunged some in a small bottle. I'll send that along too. It'll work just fine.
doing it now geoff,thanks for this,very good of you.
It is a bit strange to me as i had no issue with my Mission 774 (the same as your) at all when it came to cartridge alignment.
is yours an early arm,they revised the latter ones with different offset and holes right through the block.
the only thing i can think of now is that maybe its mounted slighlty of line?? would that cause it?
im getting a second wind so i might just check that.
walpurgis
03-05-2015, 17:09
I've never seen (or heard of ) a 774 supplied with the head block drilled through. Mine regular one is, but that's because I drilled it. As far as I know the offset is the same on all.
awkwardbydesign
03-05-2015, 17:14
It is a bit strange to me as i had no issue with my Mission 774 (the same as your) at all when it came to cartridge alignment.
It may well depend on the cartridge; where the stylus is relative to the mounting holes. My Decca, for example, is different from my other cartridges.
I've never seen (or heard of ) a 774 supplied with the head block drilled through. Mine regular one is, but that's because I drilled it. As far as I know the offset is the same on all.
Same here. The threads were knackered!
Mine is also an early one without the holes at the headshell. I think you can adjust the length of the arm to align the cartridge at the correct angle that you wish.
The Barbarian
03-05-2015, 17:16
You might find the head block has been drilled if it's all the way thru.. These are one of the easiest arms to align & set up imho..
One thing they do need is rewiring so that the arm has a dedicated ground lead.
i may have the wrong end of the stick regarding that,im sure ive read that today,one guy has mentioned it on another forum ive posted on.
see the last post.
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=77331&start=15
walpurgis
03-05-2015, 18:00
I agree with Richard's observations.
walpurgis
03-05-2015, 18:05
You might find the head block has been drilled if it's all the way thru.. These are one of the easiest arms to align & set up imho..
One thing they do need is rewiring so that the arm has a dedicated ground lead.
I guess a separate earth may be handy Andr'e, depending in the situation, but I've never needed one and that's having had 774s on about a dozen TTs. (including a Techie of all things :D) :)
The Barbarian
03-05-2015, 18:42
Sharing a Cartridge tag ground as do the Weegas aint right in my eyes
ah thats the yellow earth lead i was talking about geoff,its wrapped around the black lead.
well a bit more tweeking and aligning and im finally very happy( thank god for that i hear you all cry!) as i mentioned ive settled with the Stevenson alignment, i have noticed the cantilever on the dl-160 is slightly bent which probably didn't help with the grid line up but im in a happy place.
the arm is so much better than the rega,im crap at describing what i hear but to my ears its a more detailed and cleaner sound,it makes you want to keep listening to it.
what have i learnt from this set up nightmare?
sod the names and plots,i should use my ears! its easy to get hung up on this alignment or that alignment. use what sounds best.
thanks for all your input in helping me.
a guy on another forum summed it up very well i think he said,
The AR XA can't be made to follow baerwald without modification of the headshell.....I.......DON"T.........CARE. I don't need a "name" to my alignment, only that my alignment is the best I can achieve.
AR alignment (15mm overhang)
122.60 outer
53.22 inner (that's damn near in the paper)
max tracking error (%) 1.272
average 0.8
Conrads arc (16.2mm overhang)
133.65 outer
62.18 inner (near the end of the last song)
max tacking error (%) .886
average .470
Marc's alignment (16.5mm)
111.00 outer
65.00 inner
Max tracking error (%) .929
average .432
I decided on the best average.
can I hear any difference between Conrads and mine?.......nope
Do I notice any difference between mine in stock headshell and modified with SME mount and set to Baerwald? Nope
Can I hear any difference between AR and mine, and baerwald?......heKK yes, It's why i went looking.
As I said before, your numbers aren't bad. I wouldn't sweat it.
walpurgis
04-05-2015, 11:40
I knew you'd hear the difference Jamie. Just try bunging the Rega back on and hear the whole sound collapse into a dull opacity (not that you'd bother :)) And so far the arm is just standard! Wait till you've got it damped. The sound from the DL-160 will 'flesh out' and focus more with better weight. (I'll be posting your little package tomorrow)
A rewire is not a bad thing. My main one is going all silver shortly, from silver plated tags through to the plugs at the phono stage. Some say there's no advantage, but having used silver wiring before, I've heard one. I'll be retaining the gold plated mini plug though. I tried wiring straight through before and heard no advantage.
awkwardbydesign
04-05-2015, 11:58
the arm is so much better than the rega,im crap at describing what i hear but to my ears its a more detailed and cleaner sound,it makes you want to keep listening to it.
I knew you'd hear the difference Jamie. Just try bunging the Rega back on and hear the whole sound collapse into a dull opacity (not that you'd bother :)) And so far the arm is just standard! Wait till you've got it damped. The sound from the DL-160 will 'flesh out' and focus more with better weight. (I'll be posting your little package tomorrow)
I tried a Rega with an AT OC9 (which someone said is a bad match, BTW) and found the same. The Rega went and I still have the 774. At the moment I'm using the Decca arm with the Decca Supergold, but it will go back in when I use the OC9 again.
walpurgis
04-05-2015, 12:06
I used to have the original Decca International arm (the one with the metal headshell and opposing magnets in the pillar) and used it with Mk.IVs and Londons (and ADC 10E Mk.IV) and it was very nice, but the 774 is better in my view.
always had a desire to try a 774 but never did ....they get a good rep. these daye i need a detachable headshell for fitting carts though.
guess whats going on sale this evening! :)
guess whats going on sale this evening! :)
dunno? does it begin with R:eyebrows:
walpurgis
04-05-2015, 12:40
always had a desire to try a 774 but never did ....they get a good rep. these daye i need a detachable headshell for fitting carts though.
The 774 is just as handy. Detachable arm! Just keep a spare wand safely in a box the right size for one with your other cartridge on. Another wand costs about the same as a good headshell.
walpurgis
04-05-2015, 12:43
I've still got a Linn LV V and Helius arm to put on TTs yet (not to mention the two other 774s).
I've still got a Linn LV V and Helius arm to put on TTs yet (not to mention the two other 774s).
good to know the wands come off easy. as for all the arms u have..well you do need them;) ...
walpurgis
04-05-2015, 14:10
good to know the wands come off easy. as for all the arms u have..well you do need them;) ...
At least as much as the four TTs, thirteen carts, six sets of amplification, five pairs of speakers and four CD players, etc. :eyebrows:
The Barbarian
04-05-2015, 17:34
always had a desire to try a 774 but never did ....they get a good rep. these daye i need a detachable headshell for fitting carts though.
Ive had a late one & an early one {Both different shape mounting plates}. The arm sounds superb but i could not live with the finish.
awkwardbydesign
04-05-2015, 17:36
I used to have the original Decca International arm (the one with the metal headshell and opposing magnets in the pillar)
That's the one. But I had a plastic headshell; I changed to the metal one, but it's clangy! I intend to buy another metal one just for the mounting tube, and make an ebony headshell to fit that. I use a GB clamp at the moment, but I'll experiment when I get time; amp and speakers to finish first!
ooohh now there's an idea! what about an ebony wand for the mission???
The Barbarian
04-05-2015, 17:47
No cos you will increase the arm mass. If anything a Carbon Fibre wand..
walpurgis
04-05-2015, 18:01
Yeah. Ebony is a pretty heavy wood. It looks nice but seems no more rigid than other lighter woods. Wooden and bamboo arrow shafts come in about the right size and seem remarkably stiff, whilst being light. I think most wood ones tend to be Spruce. The Bamboo shafts are machined smooth and should be easy enough to get wiring through. I reckon they'd look good fine finished and laquered.
awkwardbydesign
04-05-2015, 19:49
BTW, do you know where to get the little red connectors? I bought a long one years ago and cut it down to length, but I can't remember what it is called! I think I bought it from RS, but there are so many different types I lost the will to live trying to find it again.
http://i16.tinypic.com/6tx9dnq.jpg
walpurgis
04-05-2015, 20:35
No. I've not needed to get one. I can't say I've ever seen them for sale. If I broke one, I think I'd just use a miniature tag strip under or behind the arm and screen it.
The Barbarian
04-05-2015, 20:43
Those contact blades should be gold plate'turd if i remember..
walpurgis
04-05-2015, 21:12
Those contact blades should be gold plate'turd if i remember..
They are. Obsolete part now I reckon.
There are miniature computer 8 (gold plated) pin plugs & sockets that would likely do the job with a bit of adapting.
The Barbarian
05-05-2015, 16:46
You would need a different type to wire the arm as suggesturd earlier on.
This bloke regularly lists a neat little kit that replaces the original plug and socket with a 5-pin version which allows you to run a separate earth wire. I rewired mine with one of these using Satcure litz wire. Worked a treat.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CONNECTOR-KIT-for-MISSION-774-HADCOCK-WITH-NEW-GOLD-PLATED-CONNECTORS-/111615991898?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item19fcd4e05a
http://www.satcure.co.uk/accs/page18.htm#litz
walpurgis
05-05-2015, 19:41
I recognise those plug/socket components, they are available cheaply from a number of sources. PCB connectors I think. Computer connectors and four pin phone connectors are also likely to be suitable.
The Litz? I already have some, bought off eBay at around the same price.
Geoff whats the diameter of these paddles,someone mentioned welding rod earlier,i wonder if they meant tig wire?
walpurgis
05-05-2015, 20:29
Geoff whats the diameter of these paddles,someone mentioned welding rod earlier,i wonder if they meant tig wire?
They vary Jamie. I've not actually measured the sizes but the smallest I've got looks about 1.5mm and the largest about 3.5mm from memory. They're all put away apart from a medium one on my arm. I've not used TIG wire, so I don't know what sizes that comes in. My MIG uses wire about 0.75mm and my gas welding stuff comes in many gauges.
The one I've sent you is about 2mm. Should be OK for most applications. You'll see when you try it.
Mission 774. Use the SMALLEST paddle and tilt it so it's JUST touching the fluid when playing. Either this, or replace goo with baby oil :) I always found the bigger paddles fully immersed tended to over-damp the sound as well as the arm itself. We sold loads with anything from Entre to Denon 103 (S and D I remember) and all sorts in between :lol:
I haven't the time or energy to follow the overhang posts earlier, but select an inner null point - 60 or 65mm and align the cartridge to this. The outer setting isn#t anywhere near as important as tracing 'distortion' is so much less at beginning of side and critical at the side end.
thanks its sorted now, inner null is 60.325 but i really appreciate you taking the time and mustering up what remaining energy you do have to type your reply .:D
awkwardbydesign
06-05-2015, 09:00
Geoff whats the diameter of these paddles,someone mentioned welding rod earlier,i wonder if they meant tig wire?
I meant gas welding rod.
walpurgis
06-05-2015, 09:13
Just a thought. Rather than mess (literally) about with varying viscosity silicone fluids. It's much easier to pick something not too heavy in the way of fluid and then experiment with paddle sizes.
As I've said, STP works well. It is of medium viscosity compared to some of the specialised fluids I've used.
Think I've still got an ancient bottle of Transcriptors fluid knocking about. That takes ages to pour. I used it in my Decca International arm.
SME and others had damping troughs that had to be SEEN to work - in other words, you hold the arm over a record and let go, the stylus falls to the groove almost like the cueing device, a but quicker but you get my drift. Damping a cantilever suspension back at the pivot isn't the best place to do it I gathered from people who knew cartridge design inside out and the low mass of the 774 means far less to go unstable anyway ;)
Geoff i received the paddle and oil today,thanks so much, im currently trying it with the oil level just about half way up the paddles horizontal leg.
Oldpinkman
06-05-2015, 15:28
SME and others had damping troughs that had to be SEEN to work - in other words, you hold the arm over a record and let go, the stylus falls to the groove almost like the cueing device, a but quicker but you get my drift. Damping a cantilever suspension back at the pivot isn't the best place to do it I gathered from people who knew cartridge design inside out and the low mass of the 774 means far less to go unstable anyway ;)
Yup
At the risk of repeating myself, I think the 774 is best used undamped. As a general principle use any damping with caution. If you need to match a stiff cartridge add weight at the headshell and use the additional counterweight. But I appreciate Geoff has had a lot of experience with the arm and likes the results of damping. I just prefer it dry.
The Barbarian
06-05-2015, 15:29
+1 Rich, i never use damping..
walpurgis
06-05-2015, 16:40
Geoff i received the paddle and oil today,thanks so much, im currently trying it with the oil level just about half way up the paddles horizontal leg.
See how it goes Jamie. With the DL-160 I think you should hear benefits. The fluid can be thinned if need be. I have used aerosol silicone oil to do this in the past, but once thinned, it stays thinned! If you eventually want to try a smaller paddle I can probably make one up.
Paul has a valid point regarding the addition of mass (at the headshell) for low compliance cartridges. I do this myself sometimes. I made a weight to fit the top of the cartridge block. Mine is drilled through and has bolts long enough to hold a drilled weight as well, but I have used BluTak to hold one on in the past. The added weight can make balancing the arm out tricky, as the counterweight may not have enough adjustment. I was planning to machine some add on counterweight mass rings to address that (when I ever get my lathe up and running again).
awkwardbydesign
06-05-2015, 20:58
I used adhesive lead tape wrapped around the counterweight on mine. I used to make leaded windows, so had loads of it.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/IMsAAOSwR0JUTnEe/$_35.JPG
The Barbarian
06-05-2015, 21:26
For additional rear weight Can't someone machine something similar to the Syrinx 'PU-2' mass ring but attach it to the original Mission counterbalance weight. It's not easy just replacing the original weight as it uses an odd fine pitch thread..
For adding mass to the front end its easy.. just machine up a similar thing to what Mayware did with the sliding armtube cursor.
walpurgis
06-05-2015, 21:33
Yes Andr'e that's what I'm planning once I get the lathe set back up. Nice bit of bronze I reckon. With a slit cut and allen bolt to tighten.
And if anybody needs to replace the goo on the thread. Try non setting gasket Hylomar/Hermetite with a tiny amount of silicone oil added.
I added weight to my 3009 using a magnet. looks perfect
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/537/dGTf2X.jpg
walpurgis
06-05-2015, 21:38
Bit tricky on the 774 Grant. The adjusting stub to wind the weight back and forth projects out from the back. A ring magnet might do though.
Bit tricky on the 774 Grant. The adjusting stub to wind the weight back and forth projects out from the back. A ring magnet might do though.
Yeh, dont know what size the stub section is but this sort of thing might do
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-large-strong-Neodymium-ring-magnets-1-dia-x-1-4-dia-x-1-4-N35-mro-craft-diy-/131184194053?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e8b2ff205
walpurgis
06-05-2015, 22:12
I've just been having a look too and found this, which should fit:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251787671624?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
12mm hole. The counterweight stub is about 5mm I believe. 30mm OD is the same as the weight. I may get one. Not needed right now as the ZYXs are quite light.
They are hard to get off....you need to slide them off and take the weight off before attaching obviously. Mine has a clear acrylic washer in between which helps a lot. I dare say you could make something up
walpurgis
06-05-2015, 22:30
Yes. I was just considering the fact that neo magnets are ridiculously strong. I may look for a ceramic job. Should be the right colour too.
The Barbarian
07-05-2015, 03:35
I added weight to my 3009 using a magnet. looks perfect
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/537/dGTf2X.jpg
There was two different weight Counter balance for the '3009, S2 Imp arm..Ill check the weights tonight..
SME offered five different mass counterweights to counterbalance cartridges having a mass of between <3g and 24g:
http://www.analogue-classics.com/assets/images/smeeffmass02.jpg
if memory serves my one was 110 or 120 gm which wasnt really enough for the mc25. with the magnet in. lace it now balances quite close to the arm instead of hanging off the end.
The Barbarian
07-05-2015, 14:58
I have two S2, Improved counterbalance weights 90 grams & a 110 grams, never seen a 120 grams! I know there was a special lightweight one but don't know the weight of it..
It'll be 110 then. Could not remember. It can't quite manage the mc and heavier headshell so the added weight although more than I need does the job
a question for all you mission owners if i may,
how accurate do you find you bias weights?
im using the hifi news test lp and to get both channels clear of distortion i have to have both weights fitted at nearly double what the mission manual recommends.
should i ?
A. go with the hifi news settings?
B. go with the misssion manual?
C. stop worrying about it and enjoy the music?
:)
walpurgis
09-05-2015, 20:30
B, then fine tune by ear. I can't say I've really had significant mistracking with any cartridge on mine.
its sounding lovely,im probably being over the top again!
walpurgis
09-05-2015, 21:23
How's your try out with the damping going Jamie?
i tried it yesterday with the fluid level with the top of the horizontal leg of the paddle and to me it didn't sound as crisp,a bit flat if you like.
going back to half way restored the detail and so i reckon that's its sweet spot,im gonna try it later with no fluid to back this up. :)
Way out of date, but I also renovated and fitted a 774 to my LP12 - it was SME fitting, I had the correct arm board, but after faffing about a bit I found I need to slide arm tube a fair bit forward to reach Baerwald alignment. Stunning difference to the modified RB250 it replaced.
So, are you sure pivot to spindle distance is correct on yours?
Personally interested in you feedback on sound with no damping - I never tried damping on mine (now with an Asaka LOMC), am happy as it is.
walpurgis
13-05-2015, 17:44
Stunning difference to the modified RB250 it replaced.
Glad you said that. Then it's not just me who hears the vast superiority of the 774 over the Regas. I have used a 774 for thirty years, but went through a phase of trying upgraded Rega RB250 and RB300 arms on an SL-1210. It was adequate. But when I eventually put my old Mission arm on, I was astonished at the way the sound just opened up. After that putting the Regas back was a pointless exercise. I had a Linn Ittok on a 401 years ago, when I put the 774 on it blew the Ittok into the weeds! :D
Well I'm loving mine!
Geoff have you re wired one and if so is there a big difference?
walpurgis
13-05-2015, 20:36
I've replaced the cable from the base to the amp with some improvement. I'm shortly going to replace all the wiring with pure silver. I've already bought the parts etc.
Cool. I'd be interested to know how that goes.im I right in thinking you can separate the red connector block for soldering new wires?
walpurgis
13-05-2015, 21:07
Yes it pops apart easily enough. You need a steady hand and a fine tipped iron. Use silver solder.
I just used decent copper litz wire when rewiring mine - there's a thread on PFM with lots of photos. Be very careful soldering the wires on the red terminal block - you need to ensure you heatsink the pins and be quick, otherwise the pins will melt & deform the red plastic. I'd use normal leaded solder to be honest, less heat required and flows much better.
Sweet,was it worth the effort?
I never listened to it beforehand with stock wire, but it's the best arm I have heard so far and will never sell it :)
Bigman80
10-02-2016, 19:13
SO, damping,
what have you done since and whats improved or decreased the sound quality etc
Love my Mission fully submerged. lots of detail with a reassuring amount of depth in the bass. Blue Bayou by Roy Orbison sounds divine !
Back in the early days for this arm, we hated it with the damping paddles fully submerged. the smallest paddle just brushing the surface was all we needed back then.
Modern decks and cartridges may well dictate otherwise and of course, Mission may have diluted the silicon goo they used too - I remember baby oil being good as fluid at the time..
Bigman80
11-02-2016, 08:03
Back in the early days for this arm, we hated it with the damping paddles fully submerged. the smallest paddle just brushing the surface was all we needed back then.
Modern decks and cartridges may well dictate otherwise and of course, Mission may have diluted the silicon goo they used too - I remember baby oil being good as fluid at the time..
Well I'm using an Acutex which is hardly modern so I will go for a reduction in STP and see what happens
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