Am i crazy?

[allthingsanalogue]

Would I be crazy to get rid of my upgraded SL for a Gyro SE, but keep my existing arm and cart to fit on the Gyro?

Please see my deck and mids below.

[Gordon Steadman]

It depends if it sounds better!

[Marco]

Indeed... The Gyro sounds *very* different - chalk and cheese!! You'll gain some, but also lose (a lot).

Marco.

[allthingsanalogue]

Well thats the thing, to find out I would have to sell my SL and buy a Gyro and by that time it might be to late!

[awkwardbydesign]

Do you not have enough in the bank to buy first and sell afterwards? Then sell the one that sounds worse.

[The Barbarian]

If it means getting shut of the Techy i say go for it :D

[allthingsanalogue]

If it means getting shut of the Techy i say go for it :D

What TT do you use?

Thanks

[struth]

With what you've done to the Techy, I'd be keeping it now. Doubt you'd better it much tbh and it will cost you a fair bit of cash too... that is unless you really want the gyro, then its a no brainer

[Tarzan]

Indeed... The Gyro sounds *very* different - chalk and cheese!! You'll gain some, but also lose (a lot).

Marco.

Having been in the same position myself a while ago- l went with the Gyro, which in my world kicked my modded Techie in to next week, however Marco is correct, plus the fact that have you not just ploughed a load of dosh into your Techie?

Also this is important; The Gyro sounds quite different to the Techie.

[Macca]

A bit like asking if you should sell your Range Rover and buy an Audi TT convertible. Depends what you want/expect from a turntable. Or vehicle.

[Frankyc2003]

Also this is important; The Gyro sounds quite different to the Techie.

+1

Having replaced my Gyrorb with a techie, I can vouch for the difference in presentation. I had at the time a Lyra Clavis cartridge on the Michell deck, and when it as moved to the techie, the difference wasn't subtle.
But, and this is a big BUT, it depends on what you like and what type of presentation you prefer. Your front end is all SS Naim AFAICS and so is Tarzan's, so I can imagine that the Michell could be a fantastic match (synergy).
IMHO, while running SET amplifiers, the Gyro couldn't deliver the amount of bass and authority necessary. The techie did, unmodded.
My 2 pennies... And this only my very modest opinion...

[Gazjam]

Hi Andrew.

My £0.02 worth would be to find a Mitchell dealer nearby and arrange to bring your Techie in to compare.
No replacement for hearing the difference with your own ears.

You've plumbed a lot of money into your Techie and you need to know which deck is best suited to your own ears.
Both decks sound great, heard David Brooks' fully modded 1210 at a hifi show and I own a Michell deck myself.
As the guys are saying, quite a different presentation between them.

Always best to hear and compare for yourself though. :)

[sq225917]

You could have bought a very good proper deck for what you've spent on techie upgrades.

[Marco]

"Proper deck"? :eyebrows:

Aye... I'll take my 'improper deck', and raise you a Kuzma! ;)

Marco.

[Desmo]

You could have bought a very good proper deck for what you've spent on techie upgrades.

+1 what he said.

[allthingsanalogue]

Thanks for all your replies!

I will stick with it for a while as the power supply and cart especially need to run in more.

Both great decks in their own right.

Andrew

[allthingsanalogue]

Also the problem is I'm scared to invest in a ETP Platter in case I heard a Gyro what costs only double of the GYRO SE and thought I'd made a big mistake and preferred a GYRO.

No dealers nearby to borrow a GYRO either :doh:

[Macca]

Just borrow any decent belt drive deck and bake it off against your Techy. That will at least give you an idea of what you will be losing and what you will be gaining.

[Oldpinkman]

Just borrow any decent belt drive deck and bake it off against your Techy. That will at least give you an idea of what you will be losing and what you will be gaining.

Given the enormous differences between (say) a Pink Triangle Anniversary and a stock Linn LP12 to take any 2 belt drive decks, that seems an extraordinary thing to say. Given this is the techipedia and there is an article of faith that there are magic properties to direct drive, perhaps it seems less extraordinary.

For what it's worth, I'd change the arm. Although Marco regularly gets grumpy with me, I think the arm is very big in the mix when it comes to getting a record player right. If I were buying an SL1200 and upgrading it the arm is undoubtedly where I would start.

[Macca]

The magic property to a direct drive TT is that it goes round at the right speed. ;)

[Oldpinkman]

The magic property to a direct drive TT is that it goes round at the right speed. ;)

If only it were that simple (nobody would bother modifying them - since they all go round at the right speed) ;)

[allthingsanalogue]

Given the enormous differences between (say) a Pink Triangle Anniversary and a stock Linn LP12 to take any 2 belt drive decks, that seems an extraordinary thing to say. Given this is the techipedia and there is an article of faith that there are magic properties to direct drive, perhaps it seems less extraordinary.

For what it's worth, I'd change the arm. Although Marco regularly gets grumpy with me, I think the arm is very big in the mix when it comes to getting a record player right. If I were buying an SL1200 and upgrading it the arm is undoubtedly where I would start.

I'm already using a RB700 arm that I would keep to put on the Gyro.

Although looks are irrelevant I love the look of the 1210 and the tight, punchy bass on the 1210 is very hard to beat as is the speed stability, CD like in fact, but the Gyro undeniably beautiful.

http://www.epavlispavlakis.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/michell-gyro-se.jpg

[Audio Advent]

My 2p - if you go down either the buying new route or the modification by buying new parts route, then you'd better be sure that you want to stick with the deck you're ploughing the money in or be ready to face quite a lot in depreciation lossess.. That way is not for those with wondering eyes.. a bit like getting a mortgage with a partner, she'd best be someone you're going to stick with.

In that respect, get some Techy relationship counciling and learn to love what you have.

[CageyH]

Or wait, save up so,e cash and buy an Orbe as well. :D

I fancy sneaking something like that in, but the Space deck looks good as well, and then there is the sound of the Funk LSD.....

[Audio Advent]

Or wait, save up so,e cash and buy an Orbe as well. :D

I fancy sneaking something like that in, but the Space deck looks good as well, and then there is the sound of the Funk LSD.....

Did you see the thread about Walrus Systems selling off stock? They have a white Spacedeck going relatively cheap.... get in their quick. Is on their website. A white one!

Ah... sorry, I see you live in Toulouse and it's for personal pickup only.

[Gazjam]

take your deck into a Michell Dealer.... compare them both with similar amplification and speakers to what you have.
Anything else is just guesswork and audiophillia nervosa!

And all direct drive Turntables are the same, so logically you don't even need to take in your Techie...a win/win! ;)

[Gazjam]

Hell yeah...
(though nicer in black!)


I'm already using a RB700 arm that I would keep to put on the Gyro.

Although looks are irrelevant I love the look of the 1210 and the tight, punchy bass on the 1210 is very hard to beat as is the speed stability, CD like in fact, but the Gyro undeniably beautiful.

http://www.epavlispavlakis.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/michell-gyro-se.jpg

[sq225917]

Come on gents we all know that the speed stability on the 1210 is nothing special, sure it has a lot of torque and starts up fast but the servo hunts and the motor is far from cog free. If speed stability is your desire then the SP10 or an EMT are MUCH better choices. A well kept Idler is probably a better best for speed stability if the loss of low level detail doesn't put you off.

There's no free lunch in audio, it's all trade offs. It sounds like you have a well specced 1210 there, with great ancillaries, stick with what you know and spend the money on more records. ;-)

[Marco]

Come on gents we all know that the speed stability on the 1210 is nothing special, sure it has a lot of torque and starts up fast but the servo hunts and the motor is far from cog free.

{Cough}

Could you describe the sonic effect of the above, Simon? I've never heard it in all the years I've owned a 1210.

As for SP10s and EMTs being much better choices - much better in what way compared with which modified 1210 you've heard?

Marco.

[WOStantonCS100]

Good lawd, are we gonna through this, again. :doh:

Do people not do their homework?? Do they not listen with their ears?? The SP-10MK2 (launched in '75) and the SL-1200MK2 (launched in '77) have the same exact W/F and S/N specs per Technics from the factory. They share the same essential motor controller except that two years later Technics condensed the rats nest that lies under the SP-10MK2. The SL-1200MK2, the SP-10MK2, the SL-M series (my SL-M3 has better S/N than both the aforementioned from the factory), the 13/14/1500MK2, the 16/17/1800MK2 are all in the same boat. You have to go to the SP-10MK3 before you can talk about going beyond the MK2 series tables. Is this thing on?? A fully modded 1200MK2 probably bests an SP-10MK2 since they were neck and neck to begin with.

I went away for a while, came back... and still... this?

[Oldpinkman]

{Cough}

Could you describe the sonic effect of the above, Simon? I've never heard it in all the years I've owned a 1210.

As for SP10s and EMTs being much better choices - much better in what way compared with which modified 1210 you've heard?

Marco.

The servo "jerk" affects imaging and detail. It's subtle and hard to describe. It's a bit like describing an elephant - you know one when you see one. If you hear a source which doesn't have the problem then the presentation is (cue useless clichés) more relaxed and more musical. It's the "space around instruments", music hanging in space stuff.

(I mentioned when I first joined this forum I don't like using words to describe listening).

[WOStantonCS100]

The servo "jerk" affects imaging and detail. It's subtle and hard to describe. It's a bit like describing an elephant - you know one when you see one. If you hear a source which doesn't have the problem then the presentation is (cue useless clichés) more relaxed and more musical. It's the "space around instruments", music hanging in space stuff.

(I mentioned when I first joined this forum I don't like using words to describe listening).

Pardon me, Richard,

But, you seriously felt the need to explain that, as if neither Marco nor anyone else knew what Simon was over-inflating?

The sins of the SL-1200MK2 / SP-10MK2 are no more prevailing and often less detectable than the sins of belt-drives, idler drives and rim drives.

So, Simon, Richard, before this thread takes a turn, why don't we give it a rest. Every audio forum every where on Earth and beyond has been through this only like a million times.

Pardon my bluntness.

[Marco]

The servo "jerk" affects imaging and detail. It's subtle and hard to describe. It's a bit like describing an elephant - you know one when you see one. If you hear a source which doesn't have the problem then the presentation is (cue useless clichés) more relaxed and more musical. It's the "space around instruments", music hanging in space stuff.


What - any more than a 'rubber band' on a T/T makes for a sound that 'wavers' all over the place on piano notes and produces a soft, lightweight sound, lacking pace and dynamics? Because that's what I hear whenever I compare my modded Techy against ANY belt-drive T/T, no matter the price..........

The reality is, of course, that the above is about as real or as relevant to you (in your listening world), as what I've quoted above, which you've written, is to me! ;)

Here are the facts: buy whatever you like the sound of, because EVERY TURNTABLE on this planet is technically flawed in some way, so don't try and kid on that the one you've got is overall 'more perfect' than any other, as if so, you're living in cloud-cuckoo land!

:exactly:

Marco.

[Marco]

The sins of the SL-1200MK2 / SP-10MK2 are no more prevailing and often less detectable than the sins of belt-drives, idler drives and rim drives.

So, Simon, Richard, before this thread takes a turn, why don't we give it a rest. Every audio forum every where on Earth and beyond has been through this only like a million times.


Indeed, consider yourself on a warning, Simon. You don't like the SL-1200/1210, that's fine (although you have no proper experience whatsoever of what the best modded ones sound like), but don't bring your agendas to AoS, by attempting to take this thread in a direction that fulfils them.

The emboldened text of Biff's contains the facts of the matter, which I've already outlined to Richard.

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

What - any more than a 'rubber band' on a T/T makes for a sound that 'wavers' all over the place on piano notes and produces a soft, lightweight sound, lacking pace and dynamics? Because that's what I hear whenever I compare my modded Techy against ANY belt-drive T/T, no matter the price..........

The reality is, of course, that the above is about as real or as relevant to you (in your listening world), as what I've quoted above, which you've written, is to me! ;)

Here are the facts: buy whatever you like the sound of, because EVERY TURNTABLE on this planet is technically flawed in some way, so don't try and kid on that the one you've got is overall 'more perfect' than any other, as if so, you're living in cloud-cuckoo land!

:exactly:

Marco.

You asked what it sounded like. I had a go at describing it for you. I didn't say you were wrong to own a Technics or that any turntable was perfect. I just tried to describe servo jerk. You claim not to be able to hear it. I can't hear the difference a mains fuse makes. We all apparantly have hearing with different capabilities. At least there is an easy to understand obvious reason for the servo effect, unlike mains fuses which depend on "science can't explain everything".

But for sure - buy what you like the sound of. And don't worry if something you haven't heard (like a spin bearing or a Sapphire turntable) might sound better. No point in that insecurity. We buy the things to listen to music, not to be sure there is no better equipment that we haven't tried out there somewhere

:exactly:

[Oldpinkman]

Pardon me, Richard,

But, you seriously felt the need to explain that, as if neither Marco nor anyone else knew what Simon was over-inflating?

The sins of the SL-1200MK2 / SP-10MK2 are no more prevailing and often less detectable than the sins of belt-drives, idler drives and rim drives.

So, Simon, Richard, before this thread takes a turn, why don't we give it a rest. Every audio forum every where on Earth and beyond has been through this only like a million times.

Pardon my bluntness.

Marco asked the question. I attempted a response. Are you suggesting that when Marco asks a question he is not looking for an answer? I had messages from him that he doesn't post for the benefit of his health and expects a response, so I had my best shot at it for him. Or are forums for discussion unless they in anyway imply some imperfection in the system that YOU choose to use?

[Marco]

You asked what it sounded like. I had a go at describing it for you. I didn't say you were wrong to own a Technics or that any turntable was perfect. I just tried to describe servo jerk. You claim not to be able to hear it. I can't hear the difference a mains fuse makes. We all apparantly have hearing with different capabilities. At least there is an easy to understand obvious reason for the servo effect, unlike mains fuses which depend on "science can't explain everything".

But for sure - buy what you like the sound of. And don't worry if something you haven't heard (like a spin bearing or a Sapphire turntable) might sound better. No point in that insecurity. We buy the things to listen to music, not to be sure there is no better equipment that we haven't tried out there somewhere


That may be the case, Richard, but whenever the subject of the Technics comes up, unless it involves in some way the promoting of Funk products, rightly or wrongly, I sense you taking the opportunity to have a dig, as let's face it, deep down, just like Simon, you're not a fan of the T/T. Your sneering "Triggers broom" remarks in the past (joking aside), in reference to modified ones, are ample evidence of that.

Now, I have no problem whatsoever with either you or him not liking the sound of the Technics, and at least you have more experience of hearing a decently modified one than he does, to be qualified to comment with any authority on the subject..

What I won't have, however, under any circumstances, is the existence of an agenda, so if that's not the case, as far as you're concerned, then don't make me feel that way when, Funk promoting aside, I read your posts on the subject, or we're going to have a problem. Ta! :)

Oh, and yes, science can't currently explain everything that we genuinely hear in audio (the emphasis being on the words 'currently' and 'genuinely'). That is pretty much an established fact.

Marco.

P.S On the subject of insecurity, in relation to anything in life, including hi-fi choices, I'm about the least insecure person you could meet!!

[Gordon Steadman]

God that Giro looks gorgeous. Sod the music, just look at art going round:lol:

[Oldpinkman]

God that Giro looks gorgeous. Sod the music, just look at art going round:lol:

I agree - but I'd never get it past the missus. Too showy and too much of a dust trap would be her response. Followed by, "I don't mind you having it if you keep it in a cupboard" :doh:

[Macca]

I may be wrong here but wasn't the theory of 'servo hunting' totally discredited? It was just something that belt drive manufacturers made up to discredit direct drive, Even though they were going to build a direct drive until they realised the tooling required was beyond what they could afford as a UK cottage manufacturer.

Not disputing what you hear Richard, but If you need an explaination for it that isn't it.

Simon - an EMT or SP10 Mk 3 may have marginally better speed stabilty but have you seen how much they are to buy? The figures for the SL1200 are more than adequate and this is borne out by listening to any stock example in good condition.
I know your own deck did very well on those tests but that is not typical of the belt drives that any of us can walk into a shop and buy.

Whether the speed issue bothers you is a different question. I don't have any problem with people prefering the presentation of a good belt drive. That seems to be true for all Direct Drive owners. Check out the threads about belt drive decks in the 'Analogue Art' section fo this forum and see how many DD owners crop up to thread-crap. I know you won't so I will tell you - the answer is 'none'.

Now check out the threads about direct drive tables....and you will see the point I am making. Time to let that flat-earth brainwash go, folks ;) The only reason that your UK cottage industry belt drive decks are belt drive is because it was too expensive to design and build them as direct drives.

[Marco]

Whether the speed issue bothers you is a different question. I don't have any problem with people prefering the presentation of a good belt drive. That seems to be true for all Direct Drive owners. Check out the threads about belt drive decks in the 'Analogue Art' section fo this forum and see how many DD owners crop up to thread-crap. I know you won't so I will tell you - the answer is 'none'.

Now check out the threads about direct drive tables....and you will see the point I am making. Time to let that flat-earth brainwash go, folks... The only reason that your UK cottage industry belt drive decks are belt drive is because it was too expensive to design and build them as direct drives.

A point well made and undoubtedly true! Yet, of course, we're all 'blinkered Technics fanboys' ;)

Thread crapping, in Simon's case, about sums it up.

Marco.

[WOStantonCS100]

God that Giro looks gorgeous. Sod the music, just look at art going round:lol:

Gorgeous, yes 'tis. Seriously, I mean that. Brass? danglies and all. It certainly caught my eye when I first spied one. :)

[Gordon Steadman]

I have several belt drives, two idler drives and have had three direct drive turntables. I could quite happily listen to music on any of them - bar the SP25 of course:lol:

The differences between them are much smaller than some would have me believe.

[Marco]

I have to be honest and say I've never been a big fan of the Gyro's aesthetics. I dislike the 'blingy' brass bits. I prefer turntables to look 'purposeful', by being brutally over-engineered, such as what you'll find in any broadcasting studios or professional environments. That usually results in a rather 'sober' and workmanlike appearance.

For me, like any piece of hi-fi equipment, a turntable is simply a tool for reproducing recorded music, not an ornament to admire.

The Gyro is too 'fussy looking' for me, almost to the point of being a triumph of form over function: a piece of sculpture first, and music transcription device second. Let's face it, and be brutally honest, how many folks buy a Gyrodec because of how it LOOKS first, and how it sounds second? ;)

That 'pride of ownership' bug, man, she bites deep............. :eyebrows:

That said, the Gyro *does* sound good, if you like its particular style of music-making.

Marco.

[WOStantonCS100]

Would I be crazy to get rid of my upgraded SL for a Gyro SE, but keep my existing arm and cart to fit on the Gyro?

Please see my deck and mids below.

Take this from a chap who's been moving Techies in and out of his house for the past 20 years or so and still has 10 about. If the Gyro SE is what you really want, go for it. However, there was a good suggestion of having both side by side first prior to evicting the Techy, just in case the Gyro's not actually what you thought you wanted. Good advice. I've not always done that with some really nice classic amplifiers I had and have regretted it.

[Oldpinkman]

I may be wrong here but wasn't the theory of 'servo hunting' totally discredited? It was just something that belt drive manufacturers made up to discredit direct drive, Even though they were going to build a direct drive until they realised the tooling required was beyond what they could afford as a UK cottage manufacturer.


I'm not sure which theory you had in mind, but if I had to opt for a 3 word answer it would be "almost certainly not". First, as I have pointed out before, back in the days when the mainstream belt drives sold in volume, it would have been perfectly feasible to source an OEM direct drive without the need to tool and manufacture - any more than those same manufacturers didn't make their own dc or synchronous motors in their decks.

"servo hunting" is to a greater or lesser extent fact of life in any DC motor, (including the belt drives) because there is no frequency to lock to, and therefore a DC motor speed will drift without correction. There are 2 potential issues here. A badly designed servo, and rotational speed.

If you design the servo badly, it will "hunt" more
Speed - if your motor turns slowly, then the opportunities for a correction per platter revolution are fewer, and the correction made necessarily has to be bigger. That's just obvious. If your motor turns faster, you get to make lots of much smaller corrections per platter revolution. No DC motor can avoid the need for corrections. However well you design your servo mechanism, a few big shoves are less desireable than lots of tiny nudges. Whether you can hear it or not, or it matters to you is another matter.


So I come back to "almost certainly not" :cool:

[WOStantonCS100]

I have to be honest and say I've never been a big fan of the Gyros aesthetic appearance. I dislike the 'blingy' brass bits.

It's too 'showy' for me, almost to the point of being a triumph of form over function, in terms of being a piece of sculpture first, and music transcription device second. Let's face it and be brutally honest, how many folks buy a Gyrodec because of how it LOOKS first, and how it sounds second? ;)

That said, it *does* sound good, if you like its particular style of music-making.

Marco.

HWHAT!?!?!? No love for brass danglies!?!? :D

[Marco]

I'm not sure which theory you had in mind, but if I had to opt for a 3 word answer it would be "almost certainly not". First, as I have pointed out before, back in the days when the mainstream belt drives sold in volume, it would have been perfectly feasible to source an OEM direct drive without the need to tool and manufacture - any more than those same manufacturers didn't make their own dc or synchronous motors in their decks.


Yes, but it wouldn't have been completely their own design then, would it? And no-one back then, in the good old unbiased and open-minded, free-thinking UK hi-fi market, would've wanted any 'nasty Jap DNA' in their beautiful all-British T/T designs! ;)

It's one thing buying in an OEM direct-drive motor unit, from the likes of National Panasonic, and quite another entirely, building from scratch your OWN one..........

The cost involved of doing that, compared with knocking up a little rubber band-driven unit in a wooden plinth, powered by a cheap Airpax motor, would've been totally prohibitive (not to mention that few, if any, UK manufacturers would've had the required tooling or wherewithal to carry it out proficiently), which is why (as Martin correctly points out), back then, low-mass belt-drive designs were the de-facto standard for all British turntable manufacturers.

Not necessarily because they were the best, but because they were the cheapest and easiest to make!

Consider how much 'designed from the ground up' direct-drive turntables cost today (think Brinkmann, GPM, etc), which don't feature a Technics motor unit at the heart of their design, and that tells you all you need to know about why, 'back in the day', that simply didn't happen outside of Japan.

Also, let's not forget that Ivor T is on record as saying that, if things had been different, the LP12 would've been direct-drive, which proves that he must've considered the approach as having some merit.

Marco.

[Marco]

HWHAT!?!?!? No love for brass danglies!?!? :D

Nope. The more black on a T/T the better!! It should be 'heard first and seen second' ;)

In terms of aesthetics, I MUCH prefer an all-black Orbe, with it's nice, big, chunky platter.... Sounds good too, although my favourite Michell T/T, sonically speaking, is a Gyro with an Orbe upgrade. To my ears, it just seems to produce the 'best of both worlds', Michell-wise.

I'd still take my modded Techy any day over it, though! :)

Marco.

[WOStantonCS100]

I may be wrong here but wasn't the theory of 'servo hunting' totally discredited? It was just something that belt drive manufacturers made up to discredit direct drive, Even though they were going to build a direct drive until they realised the tooling required was beyond what they could afford as a UK cottage manufacturer.

Not disputing what you hear Richard, but If you need an explaination for it that isn't it.

Simon - an EMT or SP10 Mk 3 may have marginally better speed stabilty but have you seen how much they are to buy? The figures for the SL1200 are more than adequate and this is borne out by listening to any stock example in good condition.
I know your own deck did very well on those tests but that is not typical of the belt drives that any of us can walk into a shop and buy.

Whether the speed issue bothers you is a different question. I don't have any problem with people prefering the presentation of a good belt drive. That seems to be true for all Direct Drive owners. Check out the threads about belt drive decks in the 'Analogue Art' section fo this forum and see how many DD owners crop up to thread-crap. I know you won't so I will tell you - the answer is 'none'.

Now check out the threads about direct drive tables....and you will see the point I am making. Time to let that flat-earth brainwash go, folks ;) The only reason that your UK cottage industry belt drive decks are belt drive is because it was too expensive to design and build them as direct drives.

Certain people insert extreme or alarmists overtones ("servo jerk", "servo hunting", etc.) to confuse the issue in as many minds as possible. They say things like "a poorly designed DC motor". The truth is that the motor/controller for the Technics MK2 and MK3 turntables are not poorly designed. But, if one wants to throw mud in the air they have to have you liken the MK2 tables with direct drive TTs that really were crap or simply DC motors in general (like just the motor as opposed to the entirety of the motor and controller system). Guilt by association. It's pooing in the wind and not truthfully informative to the user. It's like saying all AC motors are crap because they rely on AC current and we all know how much household AC current can fluctuate and thus damn all TTs with AC motors, while completely ignoring the fact there are ways to get over that hurtle. These same people get immeasurably bent out of shape when truncated convictions are tossed at whatever platform they believe to be the best.

Perfect. No. Is it possible that the midrange may be slightly less smooth as compared to another table? Sure. Are there ways to mitigate even that? Yup. Is it possible that said other table will not have the PRAT of the 1200? You betcha. But, that belt drive will have to be considerably well built and speed controlled with a fresh belt of equally considerable quality to not have it's smoother presentation compromised by W/F (pitch deviation) or speed drift or stylus drag or, or, or, or...

It's interesting to note what a manufacturer, well known and regarded for their belt-drive turntables, had to say.

From TONEAudio: A visit to the VPI factory in New Jersey with company founder Harry Weisfeld reveals a massive collection of turntables. Weisfeld is particularly well versed in direct-drive models, especially the classics. His collection includes, among others, the Denon DP-80 and JVC TT-101, as well as other Technics tables. “I believe direct drive is the way to go when it’s done correctly,” he says. “I’ve always been a huge fan of the concept, but you can’t get a belt or a pulley perfect, no matter how hard you try. A belt-drive turntable consists of multiple mistakes and you’re always dealing with multiple tolerance errors. Direct drive eliminates these issues.”

[Marco]

Certain people insert extreme or alarmists overtones ("servo jerk", "servo hunting", etc.) to confuse the issue in as many minds as possible. They say things like "a poorly designed DC motor". The truth is that the motor/controller for the Technics MK2 and MK3 turntables are not poorly designed. But, if one wants to throw mud in the air they have to have you liken the MK2 tables with direct drive TTs that really were crap or simply DC motors in general (like just the motor as opposed to the entirety of the motor and controller system). Guilt by association.

It's pooing in the wind and not truthfully informative to the user.

Spot on (excellent post, btw), and precisely why we operate a 'zero tolerance' policy for such on AoS [and folk have been banned for it]!

We're not interested in providing a platform for people to exercise their agendas or deliberately mislead the gullible, either for personal amusement, to endorse their choices, or to facilitate their best commercial interests :nono:

Marco.

[Gordon Steadman]

Nope. The more black on a T/T the better!! It should be 'heard first and seen second' ;)

Marco.

But the music room is white:eyebrows:

[Marco]

From TONEAudio: A visit to the VPI factory in New Jersey with company founder Harry Weisfeld reveals a massive collection of turntables. Weisfeld is particularly well versed in direct-drive models, especially the classics. His collection includes, among others, the Denon DP-80 and JVC TT-101, as well as other Technics tables. “I believe direct drive is the way to go when it’s done correctly,” he says. “I’ve always been a huge fan of the concept, but you can’t get a belt or a pulley perfect, no matter how hard you try. A belt-drive turntable consists of multiple mistakes and you’re always dealing with multiple tolerance errors. Direct drive eliminates these issues.”

Indeed, *but* D/D isn't perfect either. It has its own issues. Therefore, as ever in audio, simply choose your 'favourite flavour' of sound - and live with it......

The point is, as I outlined earlier to Richard, just select which turntable makes the most pleasing noise to your ears, and be done with it. That's the top and bottom of the matter.

To sit there smugly thinking that one 'design solution' is automatically OVERALL [and that's the key word here] more 'perfect' or accurate than another, is to be deluded in the extreme, although the 'cosy feeling of superiority' derived from believing that (and thus having one's choices 'technically vindicated') can be nice for some who's brains work that way!! ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

But the music room is white:eyebrows:

Not in my padded cell it aint! :D

Marco.

[Clive197]

1st as a Technics owner I am biased.

I like the Giro, it's a great belt-drive icon. Several years ago I had the opportunity of buying one sans arm for very silly money, so I did. My boss gave me a Linn arm board so that I could fit the Ittok LVIII that I had at the time and off home I went after work. I showed my wife my purchase and she casually said "Your not having that ugly thing in my lounge" So discretion being the better part of valour back it went where my boss gave me the money I'd paid for it and then used it for the shops demo model.
A few years later when I sold my Linn and brought home the Techie my wife said "That's nice dear"

Don't you just love them.

Clive

[struth]

lol. ... remember showing mine a pic of Garys uber system and she said that it was a nice table it was sitting on.:doh:

[WOStantonCS100]

Indeed, *but* D/D isn't perfect either. It has its own issues. Therefore, as ever in audio, simply choose your 'favourite flavour of coloration' - and live with it......

The point is, as I outlined earlier to Richard, just select which turntable makes the most pleasing noise to your ears, and be done with it. That's the top and bottom of it.

To sit there smugly thinking that one 'design solution' is undoubtedly OVERALL [and that's the key word here] more perfect or 'accurate' than another, is to be deluded in the extreme, although the 'cosy feeling of superiority' derived from believing that (and thus having one's choices 'technically vindicated') can be nice for some who's brains work that way!! ;)

Marco.

Yup. And, I have a feeling that part of that conversation was not highlighted because VPI has done a great job at mitigating some of the drawbacks of a belt-driven turntable system, for sure.

A Techy fanboy, yes. But, would I give back a TOTL Micro Seiki string drive, a TW Acustic Raven, Trans-Fi Salvation, TD-124, 301, 401, GL75 (or many others) if someone gave one or all to me? Heeeeeyyeeeellll no! I wouldn't toss my Techies; but, I dare say I'm not daft, either. :D

[Marco]

Lol... I think you and I are on a very similar wavelength. High-mass string drive, for me, is the way to do 'belt-drive' properly.

I simply just can't get on with the low or medium-mass approach, as the resulting sound, to my ears, is always 'weedy' and lacking in DRIVE, punch, low-end authority, dynamic impact (the ability to 'lock onto' rhythms and deliver them with suitable alacrity) - call it whatever you like - and I hear such T/Ts lacking in those departments EVERY time I listen to any, compared with a 'well-sorted' D/D design. And those things are hugely important to me, in terms of my enjoyment of music.

One should also consider the fact that when music archiving (on vinyl) is carried out professionally [and thus as accurately as possible] by recognised organisations for such, the 'tool of choice' is rarely a belt-driven turntable.... One usually sees an idler or direct-drive design employed in that role. I wonder why?

I'm a "fanboy" only of that which I consider sounds superb.

In audio, I don't get bogged down by 'badges', prices, reputations, solutions or measurements - or appeasing the feelings of 'old pals' and remaining loyal to them. The *only* reason I wax lyrical about how good a judiciously modified SL-1210 sounds, is because, to my ears, no other so called 'proper turntable' I've heard reproduces recorded music as faithfully or enjoyably, for anything approaching the cost!

At the end of the day, SPPV rules - and the Techy is a champion at that, which is why we love it so much on AoS :cool:

Marco.

[CageyH]

2nd hand techies are getting expensive now.
Then add up the costs of upgrades required to bring it up to scratch and you soon arrive at the price of. Well sorted belt drive table.

You pay your money and take your choice....

[Marco]

Indeed, which is why the former is as viable a choice, for getting top-notch sounds from vinyl, as the latter, despite what some dyed-in-the-wool 'belters' seem to think......

On top of that, I'd happily (and indeed have done so many times), put my £6k modified Technics up against ANY turntable, at ANY price, and be confident that it wouldn't disgrace itself.

In that respect, it's been up against ones costing up to £30k, and also other expensive and well-regarded high-end T/Ts, at various price points in between, where it has been demonstrated to great effect in a variety of fabulous systems.

It wasn't always the outright 'best', but it *always* showcased what it was good at - and that's all that matters, as NO turntable can ever be the best at everything.

Carrying out such tests is the only way you can be sure that you're not deluding yourself about how good what you've got actually is, which is why I'm in a position to come on here and say what I do about modded Techies, as unlike some others, I'm speaking from significant experience! ;)

Marco.

[Macca]

My Techy is not modded at all and I still prefer it to my well sorted belt drive TT (Systemdek IIX). I can appreciate that some will prefer the way the Systemdek does things.

[Marco]

In all honesty, Martin, if some of the folk heard at NEBO what others and you did from my T/T, do you think the 'anti-Techyists', who populate forums, would still spout the stuff they do?

Marco.

[keiron99]

To be fair though, Marco, there's not much of your original Technics left having spent six grand on it!

[Marco]

That's an old one, Keiron. The heart of any D/D turntable is its motor unit - and on my T/T, that's still all-Technics [as is the plinth]! The other bits are largely just 'window dressing', designed to showcase the motor unit's full sonic potential :)

Marco.

[Beobloke]

Would I be crazy to get rid of my upgraded SL for a Gyro SE, but keep my existing arm and cart to fit on the Gyro?


For what it's worth, as most people know, I have....er....one or two turntables. A quick check reveals these are split 50% direct drive, 30% idler drive and 20% belt drive.

However, one of those belt drives is one of the favourite decks that I own and I will not ever part with it - it's a Gyro SE. It has superb bass, is supremely speed stable and, once you set up the suspension, it never seems to go out of tune (a bugbear of mine where many bouncy belt drives are concerned).

Yes, it's quite different to a Technics in presenatation terms but it's no less capable. If you're thinking of one, you owe it to yourself to check it out as turntables are unfortunately somewhat more than the sum of their W&F measurements...

[Macca]

In all honesty, Martin, if some of the folk heard at NEBO what others and you did from my T/T, do you think the 'anti-Techyists', who populate forums, would still spout the stuff they do?

Marco.

Exactly - it made a nonsense of the 'you could have bought a proper deck for the money you've spent' comments.

[CageyH]

£6k? :eek:

I have not spent anyway near that, and I reckon that the sound mine produces won't be a million miles away.
The law of diminishing returns....

[Marco]

I have not spent anyway near that, and I reckon that the sound mine produces won't be a million miles away.


Well, we'll find that out when/if you come to the UK and visit! :eyebrows:

A large chunk of that £6k figure comes from the Ortofon arm, which was £2300 new, and my (now sold) brand new SPU Royal GM MKII cartridge, which was £1500... My current (vintage) SPU cost me £800, so if you want, you can now lop off £700 from that £6k figure... ;)

Marco.

[Macca]

Not that much when you can pay £5k for a belt drive with as high as 1% +/- speed variation

[CageyH]

Mine works out at about £2k all in, through careful/selective purchasing.

[Marco]

Not that much when you can pay £5k for a belt drive with as high as 1% +/- speed variation

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Indeed!

The other thing about this speed stability malarkey, and some belt-drives supposedly measuring as well, in that respect, as do good direct-drives, is that the figures taken are a little misleading.

I firmly believe that the measurements which matter most in that area, in reference to speed stability figures, are those taken when the respective T/Ts are UNDER LOAD, thus where 'stylus drag' comes into the equation.

For me, that is a very real phenomenon, especially when you've got high-mass arms, fitted with big, weighty, cartridges tracking at VTF levels upwards of 3g, which is why one rarely sees the likes of an FR-64S and an SPU, on something like a Rega or LP12! ;)

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

I like the Gyro, always have, lovely build, fit and finish as befits a product coming from an engineering firm.

Visually I am not so keen on the original the plinth and lid is definitely detrimental to the sound but the SE is fiddly to move, if one has to. DC motor was an upgrade, and the most recent PSU helped too.

A bit fiddly to set up right if you haven't done one before, or are not reasonably knowledgeable about turntable set up but once its done its done and will reward the end user with a lovely listening experience.

I never went down this route as I preferred the sound of my Oracle Delphi mk4 but despite a friend having a Gyro I haven't compared it directly to a Technics.

My advice, as has been given by a few others, is go compare one to your Technics, do a day trip to a dealer, who more than likely will have it set up with a Rega derived arm but I would ask before going in case its radically different.

On the wider question being raised a properly fettled Technics offers a very viable alternative to many other turntables out there but only if you like what it does, if not fair enough - one pays your money and makes your choice.



Regards Neil

[Marco]

On the wider question being raised a properly fettled Technics offers a very viable alternative to many other turntables out there but only if you like what it does, if not fair enough - one pays your money and makes your choice.


Of course, that's taken as a given, and no-one has ever said differently.

However, to my ears, a judiciously modified SL-1200 or 1210 possesses less of a distinctive 'sonic signature' than any low or medium-mass belt-drive T/T I've heard, so much so that the best ones (and I unashamedly include mine in that) sound remarkably 'digital-like', but digital-like in a good way, with no trace whatsoever of any of the sterility associated with the latter, when done badly.

In that respect, it is my considered opinion that if your primary goal is to extract maximum musical information from vinyl, with minimal coloration (so that one primarily hears the music, not the influence of the turntable), a modded Techy (or any top-notch D/D turntable) is the ideal tool for the job :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Exactly - it made a nonsense of the 'you could have bought a proper deck for the money you've spent' comments.

Well, that's the thing with me, when I do something, I do it right, and have the balls to demonstrate the strength of my convictions in private or in public to any sceptics, and stand or fall by the results. How many others on forums can say the same?

How many times have I 'thrown down the gauntlet', as it were, to those who ignorantly say that the Technics is merely an 'overrated DJ deck', with an invitation of 'bring your rubber-band baby to daddy', chez-moi, and let's see how good it is in comparison (or I will bring my T/T to you), and to date how many have taken me up on that offer? NONE, NOWT, NADA....

It's a good job that I'm not lacking friends or acquaintances who love hi-fi, some of whom have no shortage of disposable income, in order to carry out the T/T comparisons I have, otherwise I'd be waiting until doomsday for folk who've spent thousands of pounds on their 'proper turntables' not to risk me visiting them, or them coming here, and then crying in their soup!! ;)

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Not that much when you can pay £5k for a belt drive with as high as 1% +/- speed variation

Which one is that?

[Clive197]

At the end of the day, I don't care what turntable people buy, if it gets them listening to and buying vinyl then power to their elbow. The more vinyl that is bought means the more manufacturers will think the exercise worthwhile.

[Oldpinkman]

My Techy is not modded at all and I still prefer it to my well sorted belt drive TT (Systemdek IIX). I can appreciate that some will prefer the way the Systemdek does things.

That shows how much different folk have different preferences - or things they notice. I could live with a well modded Technics like Kevins. I would play records on one. It may not be how I would go about getting a decent record player, but the end result I could live with.

When I had a standard Technics on loan for 5 weeks, waiting for my 774 to be fixed I doubt I played more than 3 hours of records, and I really only played those because Sue had bought them as birthday presents during the period. I loved using it - but the music it produced was too far from what I am used to. (Given one of the records was "Selling England by the pound" it very much reminded me of a pioneer PL12d which my friend in France had, and which I spent a lot of time listening to that album on. Not a belt drive / direct drive issue. A ferric cassette tape compared with Chrome dioxide issue)

Clearly this "stability" thing is fundamental to you (and doubtless others) . To me I love that "speakerless speakers" sound which James (Sovereign) referred to when he came round and heard my system. And I just couldn't achieve that with a standard SL1210.

Modified SL1210 is a different story. :cool:

Edit : although we played a bit of CD, including a couple of the ones I took to James house, the vast majority of that "speakerless speaker" experience, and I felt the stuff getting the big reaction, was from the wobbly old low mass belt drive. James was commenting on the ESL63's which he had previously not had a chance to hear performing well (and they were only doing about 50% of what they might in a decent living room - mine is a long way from ideal). But the source for those ESL63's doing their thing was a wobbly low mass belt drive. ;)

[Spectral Morn]

At the end of the day, I don't care what turntable people buy, if it gets them listening to and buying vinyl then power to their elbow. The more vinyl that is bought means the more manufacturers will think the exercise worthwhile.

Agreed.


Regards Neil

[Marco]

Agreed indeed, but if that's all it was about, it would make for pretty boring discussions on forums! ;)

I don't care which turntables folk buy, but I do care (am interested in) what their judgment criteria was for choosing the particular one(s) that they did.

Marco.

[Marco]

That shows how much different folk have different preferences - or things they notice. I could live with a well modded Technics like Kevins. I would play records on one. It may not be how I would go about getting a decent record player, but the end result I could live with.

Clearly this "stability" thing is fundamental to you (and doubtless others) . To me I love that "speakerless speakers" sound which James (Sovereign) referred to when he came round and heard my system. And I just couldn't achieve that with a standard SL1210.

Modified SL1210 is a different story. :cool:


At least you're acknowledging now that there's merit to be had in the process of modifying one in the right way. However, one wonders if you'd have done that had Funk not had its own particular 'boat in the race' ;)

Marco.

[Macca]

Which one is that?

Some clunker Jerry reviewed for Hi-fi Pig

[Oldpinkman]

At least you're acknowledging now that there's merit to be had in the process of modifying one in the right way. However, one wonders if you'd have done that had Funk not had its own particular 'boat in the race' ;)

Marco.

If funk didn't have its own boat in the race Arthur would have had no SL1200's for me to take hostage.

If I didn't know Arthur so well I would never have taken one as a hostage whilst I was without my precious PT / 774

If I hadn't started searching for any review online for the F5 arm I got back instead of my Mission 774 - because I could not believe how good it was, I'd never have found this forum

Life is filled with serendipity! ;)

[Marco]

Some clunker Jerry reviewed for Hi-fi Pig

Did he review that as accurately as he reviewed the Denon DL-S1 cartridge? :doh: ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

If funk didn't have its own boat in the race Arthur would have had no SL1200's for me to take hostage.

If I didn't know Arthur so well I would never have taken one as a hostage whilst I was without my precious PT / 774

If I hadn't started searching for any review online for the F5 arm I got back instead of my Mission 774 - because I could not believe how good it was, I'd never have found this forum

Life is filled with serendipity!

Indeed. It also shows that ALL of us are on a continual learning curve in this game, which is why we should always be prepared to have our preconceptions (or indeed 'established opinions') challenged, and if necessary, 'readjusted' accordingly! ;)

IME, very little in hi-fi is ever a 'done deal'........

Marco.

[Gordon Steadman]

Indeed. It also shows that ALL of us are on a continual learning curve in this game,

Learning curve? Nah, not me. All I want to know I know already:lol:

I've been trying to buy an amplifier for some people I know out here and, as their budget is tiny, I've been trawling through French eBay for old stuff. Gawd, the memories and the wishes that I could justify the expenditure. All those old things that I lusted after when I was younger that are now for sale - I could spend an absolute fortune. I'm not sure Ronnie would understand why we need another six or seven amplifiers, she has trouble with the concept of the seven turntables we already have.

[Marco]

Lol - that's where we differ then, Gordon. I like to learn new stuff all the time (and apply it in my system), if it enriches my listening pleasure! In that respect, it pays to have an open mind :)

Maybe when I reach your age (and thus become old and wise), I'll feel different? ;)

Marco.

[Gordon Steadman]

Lol - that's where we differ then, Gordon. I like to learn new stuff all the time (and apply it in my system), if it enriches my listening pleasure! In that respect, it pays to have an open mind :)

Maybe when I reach your age (and thus become old and wise), I'll feel different? ;)

Marco.

Sadly, age and wisdom do not necessarily go hand in hand. I've been playing with hi-fi for over 50 years and have tried so many things that I can't remember them all. All through, the only thing I've cared about is that I get pleasure in the music. As I have no doubt repeated ad nauseum, my present system has remained 'almost' unchanged for 20 years. I always come back to the same components because they do what I require. Bits may break and need replacement but the core remains.

I've seen so many flavours of the month that my aural taste buds are worn out. Why there should be arguments about what equipment 'should' be used is beyond me except for the fact that the one thing I have learned over all these years is that there really ain't nowt so queer as folk.

[Gazjam]

An analogue/mechanical replay system is a bunch of different variables working against each other...
Sometimes you get it right. :)

(But only according to your own ears, the next guy wont agree...)

[allthingsanalogue]

Well after fixing my hum issue I'm keeping it!

[GML]

Good news indeed!

[Tarzan]

Makes sense, load of faffing around if you was not entirely sure about the decision.:)