Mains Plugs

[RobbieGong]

Any one have experience of trying different plugs on the end of their gear - gold, silver rodium plating etc. Do the platings give different presentations ? Any improvements etc

[walpurgis]

Yes. Never heard any difference.

[The Barbarian]

+1 it's all a load of cobblers imho

[Anthony K]

Silver tends to be a bit forward Gold is warmer sound , Rhodium I found to sound a bit bold but dull

[The Barbarian]

:lolsign:

[brian2957]

Silver tends to be a bit forward Gold is warmer sound , Rhodium I found to sound a bit bold but dull

Yup , that's a fair assessment ( IMO of course :D )

[Anthony K]

I have found that gold is the safer bet , the MKs are so cheap that you can try for yourself.
The plating on fuses also gives a similar effect in my experience , I prefer silver fuses as all my current mains are gold, it gives a nice balance. :D

[Reffc]

+1 it's all a load of cobblers imho

This.

I have never heard any audible effects attributable to the material used in the plating of plugs used to connect kit to the mains nor heard any logical reasoning why there should be any differences.

I would be more concerned with plug quality, and having a correctly rated fuse fitted.

[brian2957]

These are the old style MK safety plugs http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MK-ELECTRIC-13A-Safety-Plug-646WHI-/111189963630?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item19e370336e
They are much better build quality than the new ones . Rega use these plugs for the mains cables for their high end gear .

[The Barbarian]

Yup they are good plugs..

[walpurgis]

Don't forget to use a demagnetiser on ALL your plug pins and the cable. Without this, all your efforts will be wasted. ;)

[brian2957]

Mmm ! that's going a bit too far IMO Geoff . But if it works for you ... :eyebrows:

[Reffc]

...plus dont forget to line your mains plug screw heads up so they lay parallel to the local Ley Lines or your Karma will be lost...

[337alant]

I haven't heard a difference between types of plating but I think the main point is that the plating does not corrode as quickly as brass and so it maintains a good clean connection for longer and has less impedance then a dirty connection. A plated surface is also easier to clean.
I certainly have heard an improvement by cleaning up all my corroded brass mains plug connectors.

As plugs go I prefer the MK safety plug with the round binding post terminals as it provides a better electrical connection than a grub screw type IMO :D
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/49342.pdf

Alan

[The Barbarian]

tbh i dont give a rats arse about it all, i just switch the stereo on. Knowing i got a good quality plug is all that matters.. I do care about my screws being line up tho :eyebrows:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-British-MK-1960s-13A-Plug-White-/161680212697?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item25a4e442d9

No.6 Votes YES

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mk-Tough-Plug-White-3a-Price-for-1-Each-65530WHI-/390724368350?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5af8fcb7de

No.6 Votes certainly NO

[hard1175]

It seems we are listening more to the hifi and less to the music.

[doodoos]

It seems we are listening more to the hifi and less to the music.

Isn't that the idea :scratch:

[Wakefield Turntables]

...plus dont forget to line your mains plug screw heads up so they lay parallel to the local Ley Lines or your Karma will be lost...

Probably the best post I've read in months on AOS!;)

[The Barbarian]

Isn't that the idea :scratch:

Might be yours but it aint mine.

[hard1175]

Robin
Your right I was trying to cover up my hifi weakness.
My plug tops are laid out with the earth pin being rhodium, neutral pin silver and live pin gold and plug top screws in line with ley lines and the whole system points magnetic north
Don't let me start on about interconnects and speaker cables.

[struth]

Robin
Your right I was trying to cover up my hifi weakness.
My plug tops are laid out with the earth pin being rhodium, neutral pin silver and live pin gold and plug top screws in line with ley lines and the whole system points magnetic north
Don't let me start on about interconnects and speaker cables.

I just bung them all in the wall and hope for the best

http://toomanyadapters.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Cable-mess-e1390939527356.jpg

[Anthony K]

There is probably no difference in sound....just like no difference between amps , cdps , speakers, turntables , cartridges , tone arms, speaker cables, interconnects , headphones and ears.

Let the slating commence :punch:

[Marco]

If you want to hear a difference with plugs, go for the old round-pin (unfused) 15A chappies, or Schukos. Use either of those, and trust me, you *will* hear a difference (a significant sonic improvement), compared with fused 13A ones! ;)

Marco.

[PaulStewart]

If you want to hear a difference with plugs, go for the old round-pin (unfused) 15A chappies, or Schukos. Use either of those, and trust me, you *will* hear a difference (a significant sonic improvement), compared with fused 13A ones! ;)

Marco.

I think it depends on the 13 amp plugs and fuses and whether the conductors are kept clean. A manked up oxidised 13 amp is pants, but sorted to my ears and measurements is no different from a Schuko. The secret is, as I've said Brasso and DeOxit.

[rangioran]

...plus dont forget to line your mains plug screw heads up so they lay parallel to the local Ley Lines or your Karma will be lost...

Damn - that's what was causing my system to sound so ordinary!

[Marco]

I think it depends on the 13 amp plugs and fuses and whether the conductors are kept clean. A manked up oxidised 13 amp is pants, but sorted to my ears and measurements is no different from a Schuko.

If that's your opinion, Paul, that's fine. Mine is somewhat the opposite ;)

For me, that 13A fuse acts as a considerable sonic bottleneck. Furthermore, Schukos and round-pin plugs are rated at 15A, which means that the conductor pins and contacts they use are thicker and heavier duty, thus the connection they make when 'mated' with their respective sockets, is more solid and secure - and all of that, in my experience, makes a difference, and not one that you can measure easily either! :)

Marco.

[Barry]

If that's your opinion, Paul, that's fine. Mine is somewhat the opposite ;)

For me, that 13A fuse acts as a considerable sonic bottleneck. Furthermore, Schukos and round-pin plugs are rated at 15A, which means that the conductor pins and contacts they use are thicker and heavier duty, thus the connection they make when 'mated' with their respective partners, is more solid and secure - and all of that, in my experience, makes a difference, and not one that you can measure easily either! :)

Marco.

The rating of Schuko plug as being 15A is a bit of a red herring: the horrible IEC mains connector is rated at 16A! It is not the cross-sectional area of the pins that matter, it is the area of contact between the pin of the plug and the corresponding sleeve of the socket that is important. Plus of course the contact force, which is weak with those IEC connectors but considerably stronger with UK plugs (both round and square pin) as well as with the Schuko design.

Mind you, those that choose not to use BS1363 plugs miss out on the fun of trying out different fuses and listening for improvements gained by spending £25 on an 'audiophile' fuse over 50p for a standard Bussmann or MK fuse! :lol:

[walpurgis]

Barry is correct on contact area. Although what surface contact area is optimal I couldn't say. No doubt there is a spec or formula somewhere.

Another point is that at the contact area there may be miniscule arcing, which produces 'micro welds' and then stabilises once the current flow demand is met. Such 'micro welds' do not create noticable adhesion effects in plug use. If you examine old plug pins and contact sleeves you can see that this does occur and after long use the effects are visible.

[struth]

I like to clean my pins too but have to say i now dont bother due to not being able to get to them lol! but if i remember i do give them a good clean. All my equ has 13 amp plugs and most have iec connectors. it would cost a fortune to change them, so will just have to do as are :eyebrows:

Guess if i was starting afresh from a biggish budget i'd give it a try though...gotta be in it to win it:)

[Marco]

The rating of Schuko plug as being 15A is a bit of a red herring: the horrible IEC mains connector is rated at 16A! It is not the cross-sectional area of the pins that matter, it is the area of contact between the pin of the plug and the corresponding sleeve of the socket that is important. Plus of course the contact force, which is weak with those IEC connectors but considerably stronger with UK plugs (both round and square pin) as well as with the Schuko design.


Yup! I agree that the IEC connectors on equipment are shit, and also act as a sonic bottleneck. Electrically, if not in terms of convenience, hard-wiring is superior and ultimately the way to go, which was one of the reasons why equipment used to come supplied with captive mains leads.

The quality (although not amperage rating) of IEC connectors on mains leads, however, varies depending on which type are used. The moulded variety (found on cheap 'kettle leads') are rubbish, and easily improved on by something better constructed and sensibly priced, such as a Wattgate.

There's also no doubt that a 15A round-pin plug and matching socket, or Schuko plug and socket, is MUCH harder to pull apart than a 13A plug and socket [especially ones made these days] - and there's a reason for that! That reason also results in a sonic improvement, due to reduced contact resistance, although try measuring for it....

Those 'Mark Levinson' Lapp-sourced mains leads (fitted with Schuko plugs) you very kindly gave me, as shown here on the website of a German seller on ebay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181068060416?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT are wonderful, and unquestionably sound better to my ears than ANY 'audiophile mains lead', or otherwise, I've heard fitted with a 13A plug! ;)


Mind you, those that choose not to use BS1363 plugs miss out on the fun of trying out different fuses and listening for improvements gained by spending £25 on an 'audiophile' fuse over 50p for a standard Busmann or MK fuse! :lol:

:lolsign:

Marco.

[Marco]

I like to clean my pins too but have to say i now dont bother due to not being able to get to them lol!

I think you have gorgeous pins, darling, especially when you wear those support stockings! :D

Marco.

[Barry]

Wow! Over £100 for a pair of mains cables - I'm in the wrong business!

Regards
Barry (Purveyor of cables to the cognoscenti.)

[Marco]

And fine wines too, don't forget! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[struth]

I,m obviously ill informed then Barry...;)

[Barry]

I'm obviously ill informed then Barry...;)

? :scratch:

[Marco]

Yes, that one stumped me, too! So... :scratch: x 2

Marco.

[struth]

(Purveyor of cables to the cognoscenti.)

He has not purveyed any my way :lol:

[Barry]

(Purveyor of cables to the cognoscenti.)

He has not purveyed any my way :lol:

Ah - I understand. It was a little 'in joke': Marco is using a digital cable I made up for him, and there are other Members for whom I have made up cables.

[kcc123]

Lol! I must be very crazy to some people’s mind as I have been using mainly Iego pure silver mains plugs (both ends) for the last 10 years and two of my preamps are even fitted with Iego pure silver IEC socket as well. Do they make any improvements to the sound? Yes, they do. Do they justify the high price? No, not really unless one wants the best and can afford them. Am I too extreme? Yes, to some extent.:D

[wee tee cee]

Having heard a few different plugs with different plating at Scottish bake offs the difference was quite noticeable. Experimentation was inexpensive and enjoyable.
Synergy as always plays a part.
This after all a hi-fi forum, always good to hear other peoples discoveries.

[Marco]

Iegos are excellent, King. I use some of them in my system.

If you want to get really geeky, then recognise that different makes of plugs (depending on manufacturer) have different sonic signatures, so you use various ones in specific areas where their sonic effect is most beneficial! Hence why I have a mixture of Iego, Wattgate and Furutech ;)

Then, jump on the bus to la-la land... :hotrod:

:D

Marco.

[kcc123]

Hi Marco,
I have tried numerous brands including some cheap ones but finally settled on some Wattgates and IeGos.

[Firebottle]

due to reduced contact resistance, although try measuring for it....

I have a piece of test kit that can measure contact resistance, using a 25 amp test current.

When I have 13A and Schuko connectors on the same bench I'll do some measurements and report back :)

:cool: Alan

[Wakefield Turntables]

Iego IEC's for me as well.

[Marco]

I have a piece of test kit that can measure contact resistance, using a 25 amp test current.

When I have 13A and Schuko connectors on the same bench I'll do some measurements and report back :)


Nice one, Alan. Now that would be really interesting! :cool:

Marco.

[Barry]

I use a mixture of Crabtree and MK plugs that have been blessed by the Dali Lama.

[Qwin]

A chief electronics designer I worked with told me its better to have the same plating on both mating contacts, so both Gold or both Silver etc but don't mix em.

He also went along with the log jam effect of fuses and that the least number possible should be used to protect the system.
He also disliked any type of plug/socket as all the interfaces have a cumulative effect.

He used on board fuses in his gear and hard wired his mains cables at the equipment end and also hard wired all his leads together (no multi socket distribution block) and terminating in just one fused plug that connected into his indipendant ring main.

I have 10 plugs in my system and six of them are attached to gear which has on board fuses on the mains input so he has a point.
As long as you don't exceed the 13 amp limit you can connect several devices together to reduce the number of contacts and fuses but it is restricting if you need to move gear around. Micromart (memory?) used to do a plug that you could wire four devices into for this very reason, it was available with Silver plated contacts and plug pins, I think Maplins used to sell them and it was featured on TNT Audio. I had one in my system about ten years ago at my previous house, it had four leads attached terminating in IEC plugs that went into the sockets on my equipment, it got rid of 3 fuses and three sets of plug contacts.

I thought of building something that would do the same job a couple of years back and still have three meters of industrial screened mains cable I bought for the project, I might get round to it one day. :rolleyes:

[struth]

You would not believe how many plugs and adaptors are in my rig... I know its not the best way but I only have one socket in the wall and it is in a darned stupid spot, so its a case of needs must. I am sure things could be done better and sound improved. The regen and filter system mae a big difference so I guess redoing all the cables would be a sensible thing to do. Alas I cant afford it and tbh dont think I ever will. Still, even as is, it all sounds good to me, and I guess thats the whole point ......dont blame you all for trying to improve things though; thats how we got hifi instead of wind up gramophones

[walpurgis]

Would it be easy to mount a multi-plug socket on the wall Grant? That's what I did. (still haven't got enough though :))

[Marco]

Hi Grant,

Could you not get an electrician in just to fit some more wall sockets, at a more convenient place for you? That wouldn't cost much, and if you had your kit plugged into separate sockets, rather than using a multitude of adaptors, that would definitely sound much better! :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Ken,


A chief electronics designer I worked with told me its better to have the same plating on both mating contacts, so both Gold or both Silver etc but don't mix em.

He also went along with the log jam effect of fuses and that the least number possible should be used to protect the system.
He also disliked any type of plug/socket as all the interfaces have a cumulative effect.

He used on board fuses in his gear and hard wired his mains cables at the equipment end and also hard wired all his leads together (no multi socket distribution block) and terminating in just one fused plug that connected into his indipendant ring main.


That's something I've been doing for years (and much more beside) as it makes perfect electrical sense. I've been 'messing with the mains' since 1995, when I installed my first dedicated 'spur' and experimented with mains leads that were properly designed for audio purposes.

Some of the sonic improvements I've gained as a result have been greater than that achieved with an equipment upgrade - and often at far less cost!! Dismiss this stuff as 'nonsense' at your peril....

Marco.

[Marco]

I use a mixture of Crabtree and MK plugs that have been blessed by the Dali Lama.

:lolsign:

I can give you some of my bath water next time to sprinkle on them, which I promise will be even better! :lol:

Marco.

[agk]

I found one of these to make some considerable improvement.

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Multiway-Mains-Plug-For-DIY-Naim-Hydra-Cable-Lead-/260735158953

Might be just the thing for you Grant.

[Qwin]

Andrew - thats the plug I was on about, it is also available with Silver contacts/pins and Maplins used to stock them.

The trick isn't adding extra sockets but to reduce the number you use, getting rid of surplus fuses and mating contacts.

My electronics friends pet hate was a multi way ditribution block (extension lead) with a switch, fuse and a neon power indicator light, just about the worst thing you could possibly use.;)

Marco - yes its all common sense stuff with real improvements, but we all forget about it and need to take stock from time to time on how we approach power delivery, I'm not talking about using mega bucks leads, just simplifying what we have. If we were to wire items in pairs to a single plug it would half the number of contact interfaces and fuses in the system.

[Marco]

Indeed - with audio, always employ the K.I.S.S principle!

Trouble with mains upgrades is that most of the time (unless you buy a mains regeneration unit or some such), unlike equipment upgrades, the money spent doesn't result in a nice shiny new box to ogle at, so folk foolishly spend the money on the latter, and ignore the former, which is just as important!! :doh:

Marco.

[struth]

I found one of these to make some considerable improvement.

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Multiway-Mains-Plug-For-DIY-Naim-Hydra-Cable-Lead-/260735158953

Might be just the thing for you Grant.

interesting gadget that... might get some on future...cheers

[Qwin]

interesting gadget that... might get some on future...cheers

They also come ready made up with IEC connectors like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUDIO-FRIENDLY-SILVER-Hydra-mains-power-cable-Naim-3m/310106268737?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D20140122125356%26meid%3Da75ae60ff1b94151b25 6234273d36ad9%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26 mehot%3Dag%26sd%3D260735158953&rt=nc

[Jimbo]

Iegos are excellent, King. I use some of them in my system.

If you want to get really geeky, then recognise that different makes of plugs (depending on manufacturer) have different sonic signatures, so you use various ones in specific areas where their sonic effect is most beneficial! Hence why I have a mixture of Iego, Wattgate and Furutech ;)

Then, jump on the bus to la-la land... :hotrod:

:D

Marco.

Like it:lol:

[zanash]

One aspect no one has mentioned maybe not noticed .....is that the pin seems to conduct on the edge not the flat .....I had some plugs I first filed smooth with a very very fine diamond file then cleaned with dura glit ...to a mirror finish. after using for a while I unpluged and notice slight heating ?/ discolouration /oxidation from the edge of the pin ....it seemed to help if the edges were sharp rather than rounded. Also only about a 1cm of the pin is actually in contact with the sockets contact so no need to clean and prep the whole length. Fuses 13amp use duraglit to remove the tin? off the end caps to a bright shiney copper...these for me always sound better than standard variety and look a million dollars. I have also soldered the screw downs on the pins and wires and that helps but its a bugger when you need to change things.

[kcc123]

I found one of these to make some considerable improvement.

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Multiway-Mains-Plug-For-DIY-Naim-Hydra-Cable-Lead-/260735158953

Might be just the thing for you Grant.

I have one of those Multiway Mains Plugs for my fish tank equipment, all my fishes sing beautifully.:lol:

[rangioran]

I've read all that has been written in this particular thread and honestly struggle with some of the claims being made.

Perhaps, just perhaps, some of the comments regarding well seated fuses in the signal path may warrant further investigation - and by that I mean that I'd expect to see empirical evidence of results before and after - but citing just how shiny the pins of a 13A (and now I see that Marco brings the old 15A round pin plugs into the argument) plug are and how that adds 'sonically' to the final audible result is, in my book, frankly preposterous.

I'm open to being persuaded by physically supportable evidence, but I'm never going to be convinced by someone's personal belief that 'it just sounds better'.

I have to say that I liken most of the discussion to that old fairy tale of The Emperors New Clothes.

Stand by to repel boarders . . . . .

[struth]

I've read all that has been written in this particular thread and honestly struggle with some of the claims being made.

Perhaps, just perhaps, some of the comments regarding well seated fuses in the signal path may warrant further investigation - and by that I mean that I'd expect to see empirical evidence of results before and after - but citing just how shiny the pins of a 13A (and now I see that Marco brings the old 15A round pin plugs into the argument) plug are and how that adds 'sonically' to the final audible result is, in my book, frankly preposterous.

I'm open to being persuaded by physically supportable evidence, but I'm never going to be convinced by someone's personal belief that 'it just sounds better'.

I have to say that I liken most of the discussion to that old fairy tale of The Emperors New Clothes.

Stand by to repel boarders . . . . .

:uhho:


:D

[Gazjam]

I think the "better" plugs take less away than cheapies...for various reasons.

The best plug is no plug imo, Marco's 15a recommendation is a sound one, or even better hardwire.
(Fuse in the plug only protects the cable, hifi units are internally fused, often at the IEC socket.)

This stuff *does* make a difference, I've experimented a lot with my own system in this area.
But your right, people telling you so don't amount to a hill of beans, try it in your own system!

[Anthony K]

Oh God not the physical supporting evidence thing again.......oh actually yes no physical support there is a God .....but so many of us believe even though unproven , at least we try fuses and hear them in our systems before ridiculing.
I too doubted it even though I am a firm believer in cables so I gave it a go expecting it to work and me be pleasantly surprised or not bring any improvement and slagging it off ( but I tried them ) . The improvements are far from subtle.

[Barry]

I've tried 'audiophile' fuses and I could not hear any difference whatsoever. As for mains cables, everyone knows the best-sounding cables are those that use the old colour coding of red, black and green! :lol:

[rangioran]

I've tried 'audiophile' fuses and I could not hear any difference whatsoever. As for mains cables, everyone knows the best-sounding cables are those that use the old colour coding of red, black and green! :lol:


Oh God not the physical supporting evidence thing again.......oh actually yes no physical support there is a God .....but so many of us believe even though unproven , at least we try fuses and hear them in our systems before ridiculing.
I too doubted it even though I am a firm believer in cables so I gave it a go expecting it to work and me be pleasantly surprised or not bring any improvement and slagging it off ( but I tried them ) . The improvements are far from subtle.

All that was missing here was 'Oh yea of little Faith . . . . "

[struth]

All that was missing here was 'Oh yea of little Faith . . . . "



'Oh yea of little Faith'

[rangioran]

'Oh yea of little Faith'

Nice one Grant :lolsign:

[Marco]

I've read all that has been written in this particular thread and honestly struggle with some of the claims being made.

Perhaps, just perhaps, some of the comments regarding well seated fuses in the signal path may warrant further investigation - and by that I mean that I'd expect to see empirical evidence of results before and after - but citing just how shiny the pins of a 13A (and now I see that Marco brings the old 15A round pin plugs into the argument) plug are and how that adds 'sonically' to the final audible result is, in my book, frankly preposterous.

I'm open to being persuaded by physically supportable evidence, but I'm never going to be convinced by someone's personal belief that 'it just sounds better'.

I have to say that I liken most of the discussion to that old fairy tale of The Emperors New Clothes.


Hi Eric,

Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

AoS is primarily a subjectivist forum, thus we trust our ears, first and foremost when assessing hi-fi, and make recommendations to other members on that basis.

If you're unwilling to accept anyone's views or recommendations, formed using that process, then again that's your prerogative. The requirement then will be for you to avoid threads where views are being expressed you simply don't believe, and contribute to other discussions instead.

However, what I won't have from any member here are subjectivist-orientated threads derailed by shouts of 'I don't believe you, show me the scientific proof', so if that's your intention, then sadly I don't think this forum will be for you. I suggest that you read our ethos and decide whether you think you're going to fit in here or not, particularly post #5 onwards: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?17-The-basics-of-Ethos

Marco.

[NRG]

I've read all that has been written in this particular thread and honestly struggle with some of the claims being made.

Perhaps, just perhaps, some of the comments regarding well seated fuses in the signal path may warrant further investigation - and by that I mean that I'd expect to see empirical evidence of results before and after - but citing just how shiny the pins of a 13A (and now I see that Marco brings the old 15A round pin plugs into the argument) plug are and how that adds 'sonically' to the final audible result is, in my book, frankly preposterous.

I'm open to being persuaded by physically supportable evidence, but I'm never going to be convinced by someone's personal belief that 'it just sounds better'.

I have to say that I liken most of the discussion to that old fairy tale of The Emperors New Clothes.

Stand by to repel boarders . . . . .

Yeah, I can empathise with this point of view but I don't think things are so black and white, I fall into the middle camp and would say that paying attention to good quality connect of the mains can and IMHO does make a difference....however, I don't put much weight behind mains plug fuses (yeeees I tried some) making any difference or being directional. If it is really directional then I would say there is something wrong with it, however fuses in the power rails on an amp, after rectification ythen es I can see there may be something to be gained by using an 'improved' fuse. Also fuses do fatigue over time especially if they are used near their current rating on DC supply rails, so swapping old ones out may improve the sonics of the amp.

Bottom line is folks hear what they hear, placebo or not, if it's an improvement to them and they are happy then nobody should criticise IMHO

[Marco]

Bottom line is folks hear what they hear, placebo or not, if it's an improvement to them and they are happy then nobody should criticise IMHO

Nail > head, mate - and we INSIST on that behaviour here from all members, at all times! Disagree with, if necessary, yes (as long as it's constructive), but *never* criticise or demean.

:exactly:

Marco.

[Macca]

I also sympathise with Eric's point of view and would agree if I hadn't heard myself clear differences between different mains blocks and the difference between having the block on the floor and having it raised up on a shelf or suchlike. Consequently I have an open mind re the fuses and so on, even though I haven't really experimented there myself.

Physics is physics and electronics is electronics but when it comes to using them to produce recorded music that sounds good to human beings there are a lot of grey areas not covered in the text books.

[Marco]

Physics is physics and electronics is electronics but when it comes to using them to produce recorded music that sounds good to human beings there are a lot of grey areas not covered in the text books.

That's it in a nutshell.

I would also add that Eric is most welcome to post here, and express his views, as long as he respects the ethos of the site, and what I outlined earlier :)

Marco.

[rangioran]

I won't deny there was an element of good natured ribbing in my post, but I would object to being accused of demeaning anyone, or indeed criticising - I was merely stating that, for me, the proof has to be measurable and capable of being analysed. It's a well known fact (ask Mrs. Eric, she'll tell you!) that I just don't do subtle, whilst I absolutely love my music and go to great lengths to ensure that I'm getting the very best reproduction, I really can't tell middle C from an op-amp!
All I was attempting to get across was that I really can't see how the state of the pins on one's mains plug can make the slightest difference to the quality of the signal I perceive coming out of my speaker/headphone? I mean, there's a million other connections of literally all types of reducing quality involved in both the generation and transmission of that power supply before it even reaches the local sub-station!
Anyhow, I've probably well and truly blotted my copy book with the rest of you but thanks to Grant, Anthony, Neal, Macca and of course Marco for your comments and forbearance.

I'd still like to enter into discussions about the topic in question with anyone who's prepared to do so without thinking that I'm just in it for arguments sake :)

[PaulStewart]

I won't deny there was an element of good natured ribbing in my post, but I would object to being accused of demeaning anyone, or indeed criticising - I was merely stating that, for me, the proof has to be measurable and capable of being analysed. It's a well known fact (ask Mrs. Eric, she'll tell you!) that I just don't do subtle, whilst I absolutely love my music and go to great lengths to ensure that I'm getting the very best reproduction, I really can't tell middle C from an op-amp!
All I was attempting to get across was that I really can't see how the state of the pins on one's mains plug can make the slightest difference to the quality of the signal I perceive coming out of my speaker/headphone? I mean, there's a million other connections of literally all types of reducing quality involved in both the generation and transmission of that power supply before it even reaches the local sub-station!
Anyhow, I've probably well and truly blotted my copy book with the rest of you but thanks to Grant, Anthony, Neal, Macca and of course Marco for your comments and forbearance.

I'd still like to enter into discussions about the topic in question with anyone who's prepared to do so without thinking that I'm just in it for arguments sake :)

Hi Eric, my take on it is that the effect is cumulative and that the more you can do to improve the environment in which you system is working the better. I have worked wiyh several manufacturers over the years and the one thing all shared was a belief that at the end of the day the most powerful and subtle measuring equipment we have is the human brain. It can detect things going on at a level lower than conventional measurement tools can.

That said, those who know the reasearch I carried out in the 70s on perception of reality in reproduced sound, will know it was based around harmonics and intermodulation. Contrary to that which is often stated, it is pretty easy to measure the effect of connectors on any signal, be it 50/60Hz mains, line level or whatever, the distortion thus caused produces low level harmonics that our brain is good at detecting on a subliminal level and construing as "wrong"

I believe that anything we can do to reduce these subliminal level harmonics, can only improve our perception/enjoyment of recorded music. At some point I will have my original thesis and research notes scanned and I'll put them on the web, it makes for, in my opinion an interesting read, especially when you realise it was done in the days of bell wire for speakers

[struth]

youve not blotted any book Eric....maybe a slight smear:eyebrows:
dont worry about future posts as long as you give your opinion as your opinion only all will be fine mate:)

[Marco]

I won't deny there was an element of good natured ribbing in my post, but I would object to being accused of demeaning anyone, or indeed criticising - I was merely stating that, for me, the proof has to be measurable and capable of being analysed. It's a well known fact (ask Mrs. Eric, she'll tell you!) that I just don't do subtle, whilst I absolutely love my music and go to great lengths to ensure that I'm getting the very best reproduction, I really can't tell middle C from an op-amp!
All I was attempting to get across was that I really can't see how the state of the pins on one's mains plug can make the slightest difference to the quality of the signal I perceive coming out of my speaker/headphone? I mean, there's a million other connections of literally all types of reducing quality involved in both the generation and transmission of that power supply before it even reaches the local sub-station!
Anyhow, I've probably well and truly blotted my copy book with the rest of you but thanks to Grant, Anthony, Neal, Macca and of course Marco for your comments and forbearance.

I'd still like to enter into discussions about the topic in question with anyone who's prepared to do so without thinking that I'm just in it for arguments sake :)

Hi Eric,

I think what you've written above clearly shows that you're here for constructive reasons and have a desire to fit in with the AoS community, and hopefully enjoy yourself in the process. Therefore, I welcome that and reading about your alternative take on hi-fi :)

Marco.

[Macca]

.

That said, those who know the reasearch I carried out in the 70s on perception of reality in reproduced sound, will know it was based around harmonics and intermodulation. Contrary to that which is often stated, it is pretty easy to measure the effect of connectors on any signal, be it 50/60Hz mains, line level or whatever, the distortion thus caused produces low level harmonics that our brain is good at detecting on a subliminal level and construing as "wrong"



That's interesting. Bears out my own experiences of listening to systems that seemingly had everything: deep, clean bass, clear mids, clean, open top end, and still not enjoying them but not being able to work out anything I could pinpoint as the problem. but if the distortion is in the harmonics you lose the sweetness and the naturalness, I suppose.

[walpurgis]

I'm saying nowt.

[rangioran]

Hi Paul,

I'd really look forward to reading that, and I can certainly agree to the concept of something sounding 'wrong'. I also have this thing about perception of sound quality - we can happily watch a programme/film on TV that includes some really excellent sound tracks and thoroughly enjoy it, even though the audio delivery of said TV is simply appalling when compared to even the lowest-fi hifi. Yet when it comes to listening to the self same track divorced from the visual stimulus we'd never even consider listening to it through anything less than a system that would 'do it justice'. Odd really.

[rangioran]

Hi Grant,

Thanks for the confirmation of a moderate amount of soiling :)

[rangioran]

Hi Marco,

Thanks, I'll be a little more careful not to stir things up quite so much next time :trust:

[PaulStewart]

:exactly: and if the distortion is entering the system with the mains, it goes through the whole system. One time in a discussion with the JVC team in Japan, we talked about the nature of amps and why we refere to tubes as valves. We talked about how a valve holds back the large current and controls it. Releasing the current to move the speakers as an analog of the smaller control signal but larger. All the components of the signal have to be of the highest order or "Perceptual intermodulation" creeps in. Strange analogy I know, but give it some thought

[Anthony K]

15-20 years ago many an audiophile argued that various interconnects , speaker cables and powercords made no difference and it was 'placebo'
some of these were journalists writing for top mags and they should have been more open minded , these same journalist now sing praises regarding cable companies that they had previously slagged off for being snake oil vendors.

Those who have no experience of said items have no opinion

[walpurgis]

The 'cable sound' question goes back much further Anthony. It kicked off around 1970 really.

[Anthony K]

The 'cable sound' question goes back much further Anthony. It kicked off around 1970 really.

Good lord...that's a long time to be wrong

Thanks Geoff , I only reincarnated in 1969

[RobbieGong]

Hi Marco,

Thanks, I'll be a little more careful not to stir things up quite so much next time :trust:

Hi Eric, Glad you're not taking the ole slap on the wrist to heart :) . I started the thread and wasnt offended by your comments in the slightest, to the contrary, I'd be a bit surprised if there wasnt someone out there who thought this whole fuses and different platings on plug pins can be heard malarkey !?! :eek: The 'guvnor' steps in from time to time to nip any potential for lets call it 'that's a load of b&ll&ocks' type posting from occurring and that's cool.
My colleagues at work know about my hifi passion where mats and stuf have been delivered to me at work. They looked at me like I was crazy when I explained that a mat can change the sound..... :mental:

[rangioran]

Hi Eric, Glad you're not taking the ole slap on the wrist to heart :) . I started the thread and wasnt offended by your comments in the slightest, to the contrary, I'd be a bit surprised if there wasnt someone out there who thought this whole fuses and different platings on plug pins can be heard malarkey !?! :eek: The 'guvnor' steps in from time to time to nip any potential for lets call it 'that's a load of b&ll&ocks' type posting from occurring and that's cool.
My colleagues at work know about my hifi passion where mats and stuf have been delivered to me at work. They looked at me like I was crazy when I explained that a mat can change the sound..... :mental:

Hi Robert,

Thanks for taking it in the spirit it was meant - although I can understand that my comments can seem a little confrontational at times :)

Believe me I most certainly do not rule out the improvements certain mod's and accessories can bring to the party - I wouldn't be without my anti-resonance rubber rings on my 401, nor my ZeroStat or my carbon fibre disc brush. Perhaps I'll invest in JUST ONE set of decent phono leads (all of my present leads are bog standard and date back over thirty+ years), I'll probably look to get a new harness for the 3009 and do some serious listening/recording before and after and report back.

All the best...

[RobbieGong]

Bought a couple of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POLISHED-DE-OXIT-TREATED-AUDIOPHILE-GRADE-UK-MAINS-POWER-PLUG-MK-Duraplug-/251102854284 in the week and picked them up from the post office this morning. My thinking was i didnt want to take a chance on, silver, gold or rhodium plating over the normal plugs I use and upset the fantastic synergy and balance I'm currently thoroughly enjoying in my system. So when I came across these I just had to take a punt. They are real quality, the screws, pins everything highly polished. The pins click tight in place which I'd never come across before, the whole thing feels quality. I fitted my usual AMR gold fuses and all I can say is everything sounds as good as ever if not better - very pleased and highly recommended :)

[Anthony K]

http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mgJQIedHU8xiMXnFJXz3C8w.jpg Nordost Heimdall 2

put 1 of these in my system 5 hrs ago.............My God :stalks:

[Marco]

It's that Schuko magic! ;)

Marco.