A bit of help with my vinyl set-up

[Richardl]

I feel like I'm not getting the full potential of my vinyl set-up, maybe I'm expecting too much from vinyl?? I don't feel as though playing vinyl is giving a much better sound than streaming from my Sonos/Dac. My set-up is as follows.

Audiocom modified Sonos with the Deezer flac streaming
Beresford Caiman 2-battery powered
Temple audio gold amps-battery powered
Beresford Capella-battery powered
Channel island PLC-1

Technics Sl1210
Audiomods tonearm
Nagaoka MP-500
Angle audio reference phono stage-battery powered

I have to say, I'm having problems getting the cartridge set-up correctly, the damn needle is so bloody fine it's nearly impossible to see even with a magnifier.
Even so, I think the vinyl rig should be much better than the digital set-up.

I think the Angle audio is holding the vinyl sound back a bit, but I thought I'd see what people think. Maybe some of you have got some suggestions on how to improve things?

Edit....I forgot speakers are Kef LS50's and headphones are AKG Q701.

[walpurgis]

I don't know about the comparison to streaming, but that arm and cartridge should sound pretty good. It could be that you are right about the phono stage or even that your cables are unsuitable.

I've not tried an Angle Audio unit, so can't comment on the sound quality. I've been using Graham Slee phono stages for the last few years and the sound I get is superb.

[Macca]

Rather than make comparisons with the digital end might be helpful to describe exactly what is letting the sound down with the vinyl. I know some folk have said the Angle Audio phono stage can sound a bit thin. Is that the issue?

[Richardl]

Thanks for the replies.
There isn't much wrong with the sound really, I just expect the vinyl sound to be be a lot better than the digital.
The beresford is only a £200 dac, a very good £200 dac, but I should be finding the finding the vinyl sound a lot more enjoyable surely.

[Richardl]

The tonearm is supposed to be very good and the cartridge is £650 retail.

[Idlewithnodrive]

The arm is well thought of, the NAG just about as good as MM carts get, so has to be the phono, cart / arm mismatch (though I think they are supposed to be well matched) or the cart isn't set up properly.

You are right though, that rig should knock spots off the digital set-up, so something isn't right.

[walpurgis]

Why not put your name down as one of the members who wants to try out a Firebottle phono stage.

Or contact Graham Slee products. They do short term phono stage loans, so potential buyers can make comparisons. I'd suggest an ERA V Glod or Reflex M phono stage may seriously impress you. I'd suggest trying the ERA V Gold first, it's a really musical device.

[Richardl]

I've been looking at the firebottle or the arkless.
I just think my system needs a better phono stage than the angle audio, it's great for the money though.

[twotone]

That Nag should sound amazing or so I've read, would love to hear one.

Impedance mis-matching kills a system though so it might be something along those lines.

I had a great sounding set up with a Firebottle MM stage into a Rega Brio, changed the Brio for an XTZ integrated and completely messed up the sound, the firebottle and XTZ just didn't gel together.

I've the same thing currently with a Denon 103 LOMC cart playing through a Quad MC phono module in a Quad 34 Pre sounds pish but the Denon sounds great with a Pair of Ortofon T5 SUTs, some thing just don't work together.

[Macca]

I also use a Nag MP500 on an SL1200 with a Firebottle and it does sound very good - when everything is working, anyway. But I wouldn't say it trounces the digital. It is just vinyl and a vinyl sound. Apples and oranges.

[twotone]

I also use a Nag MP500 on an SL1200 with a Firebottle and it does sound very good - when everything is working, anyway. But I wouldn't say it trounces the digital. It is just vinyl and a vinyl sound. Apples and oranges.

I listen to internet radio through a Denon network player, the stream is only 128KBS but the sound is excellent.

What arm do you the Nag on have Martin?

[Macca]

Just the stock arm with Sumiko headshell.

[CageyH]

Do you still have the Technics rubber mat fitted?
This is known to kill the sound.

[twotone]

Just the stock arm with Sumiko headshell.

Really?

Marvellous, been thinking about buying a Nag 500 but the price has shot up since last year, they're now about £550-ish, bit too rich for me and they rarely ever come up SH.

[Richardl]

I got mine from Japan, prices we're really good there, but the prices over there have had a massive increase.

[Macca]

Really?

Marvellous, been thinking about buying a Nag 500 but the price has shot up since last year, they're now about £550-ish, bit too rich for me and they rarely ever come up SH.

I bought an MP50 used for £150 and got a new MP500 stylus for £220. Not cheap but not too bad compared to the new price. I still think they are worth the new price though since I reckon they don't give much away to the £1K plus MC carts and replacing the stylus is a lot easier than getting a re-tip.

[Richardl]

I did look at getting a cheaper nagaoka and fitting a dearer stylus, shame the prices have gone up so much in Japan

[Macca]

I got mine from Japan, prices we're really good there, but the prices over there have had a massive increase.

I bought an MP30 years ago (1994 about) brand new was only £79, that was what hooked me on Nags although I've tried other carts in between times.

[twotone]

You can buy them here below but your still looking at £550 once you factor in vat and customs charges.

http://www.audiokazu.com/#!nagaoka-cartridge/c58m

Wee bit cheaper here if you happen to be in Japan on holiday or visiting etc

http://www.yodobashi.com/ec/category/index.html?cate=&word=nagaoka+MP+500&ginput=

[twotone]

I did look at getting a cheaper nagaoka and fitting a dearer stylus, shame the prices have gone up so much in Japan

The 300 is more or less the same (different tip) as the 500 but it's 'only' about £60 cheaper so not that much of a bargain

[cvision123]

I think that it really depends on the type of music you're listening as well as the sound qualities that you favour. Vinyl is not always better than digital playback.

[Tim]

but I should be finding the finding the vinyl sound a lot more enjoyable surely.
Depends on what your expectations are Richard, having been through similar I would say it's going to be different, but not necessarily better. It's all down to preference really and what sound you actually prefer?
A lot will depend on the music you are playing too, modern, well mastered digital music can be exceptional when played on a music server type system, whereas older music recorded for vinyl when transferred to digital can be appalling compared to the equivalent vinyl record. Vinyl will often sound great in such a situations. Do you play old or new music?

There are so many variables at play here, the music, the mastering but most of all your expectations - however that arm and cartridge should be giving a decent return.

Are you well used to vinyl playback, or is it a new experience? If it is and you are more used to digital playback, then you will find it very different, especially around the ball park you are currently in. This quote "I just expect the vinyl sound to be be a lot better than the digital." is quite telling, are you expecting that because you know it will be, or is it from reading comments here from those that have a clear preference for vinyl - if it is then you might be disappointed?

If it's just poorly set-up/matched then the folk here will help out, maybe try to hear a very well sorted vinyl system, then you will have a better idea of what good vinyl sounds like and if you don't enjoy it, then your choices will be easier. When you get to the pinnacle of good vinyl playback and good digital via a music server, then to be honest there is very little difference apart from how much it will cost you to get to those pinnacles, but if you enjoy the theatre and tactile interaction of the vinyl experience, then that can be hard to beat for many people.

Just enjoy both, now you have both and exploit the strengths of each medium, without trying to compare them. They are different animals each with their own particular attractions IMO and just enjoy the music ;)

[Richardl]

I've got back into vinyl in the last couple of years........due to the 'show us your turntable thread' on this form :-)

I've now decided to change the phono pre-amp, and make sure everything is set-up correctly. I've been really busy, so I haven't had a chance to have a go at it properly. I'll let you know, how I get on.

[bob4333]

I've got back into vinyl in the last couple of years........due to the 'show us your turntable thread' on this form :-)

I've now decided to change the phono pre-amp, and make sure everything is set-up correctly. I've been really busy, so I haven't had a chance to have a go at it properly. I'll let you know, how I get on.

Hello Richard, for my money you're on the right track.

My experiences were similar, with vinyl playing catch up to try and match the CD player. Where was all the vinyl magic I kept reading about and was sure was locked in there somewhere? The vinyl front end was a little different to what I have now but the principle's the same and I received what turned out to be good advice from a HiFi magazine which pointed me to the phono stage.

I'd tried a PS Audio GCPH (noisy and a bit thin sounding), Tri Chord Diablo (better, but not very involving) and a couple of others. A trial of a valve based phono stage was a night and day difference. Deliciously creamy bass, shimmering cymbals and a massive sound stage with total involvement in the music.

So different was the quality of what now came out of the speakers that it was hard to turn my back on it go to bed some nights. And you don't have to whack the volume up to number 11 to get the benefit (although when the mood takes you that's nice as well of course).

You have some very fine components in your vinyl system that I suspect are just waiting to show what they're capable of - but if they're being strangled they'll struggle to shine. You may decide that valves are not for you, but whatever your final choice I'd suggest trying a valve stage before parting with your hard earned.

[martinswimmer]

In my case setting up the suspension, isolation, tonearm adjustments and cartridge alignment was more important than anything else. Once you're sure the TT is mechanically and dynamically in tune, attack the components downstream.

[Macca]

Levelling the deck when the floor is not level. Hours of fun. I really never want to do that again.

[Andrei]

In my case setting up the suspension, isolation, tonearm adjustments and cartridge alignment was more important than anything else. Once you're sure the TT is mechanically and dynamically in tune, attack the components downstream.
+1
Level turntable & headshell, isonoe feet for isolation, and some chassis damping should be the starting point. Phono stages: Slee, Arkless, Rothwell, ifi for solid state but Firebottle for a valve stage.

[Richardl]

I've been considering the table or rack carefully, the turntable is currently placed on an Ikea lack table http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/20011408/ the corner where the table is located doesn't seem that level, I suppose it relates to when we had a layer of concrete laid in the front room.

Next to it is a nearly full Kallax record rack http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/70307493/

I might just get rid of the lack table and get another Kallax rack using the current rack to put my turntable on, with someway of adjusting the level (feet or spikes I suppose). Or take the legs off the lack table or something like a wooden chopping board and use it to make a wall shelf. I've lso been looking at one of these to put the turntable on.
http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/recording/recording-gear/109373-auralex-iso-tone-dj-isolation-platform#sterling_uk, I can't many reviews on it other than amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Auralex-Acoustics-ISO-Tone-Turntable-Isolation/product-reviews/B00SZ3J4IS/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

I should say listening to older music on vinyl seems to be a lot better than streaming.
For some strange reason when I listen certain albums e.g. James Blake-Overgrown in vinyl it's really quiet compared to streaming, the amp for streaming can be set at about 8 O clock, but on vinyl to get the same volume, the amp has to be set on 4 O clock, which is a massive difference which means there's a of surface noise from the record, that's when I find vinyl disappointing.........I guess it's to do with dynamic range/headroom (or something like that)

[struth]

can depend on the output of cart and phono amp

[Macca]

Your phono stage just has a lower output than your DAC. Nothing to be concerned about.

If by surface noise you mean vinyl 'roar' that is vinyl nothing you can do about it. It's one of the reasons they invented digital playback ;) If it's noise like crackles and pops and general rustling of crud in the groove then get your records cleaned will fix it. Or it could be tape hiss if it is an analogue recording. Loads on some of them. Nothing you can do about that on either medium.

[Richardl]

Your phono stage just has a lower output than your DAC. Nothing to be concerned about.

If by surface noise you mean vinyl 'roar' that is vinyl nothing you can do about it. It's one of the reasons they invented digital playback ;) If it's noise like crackles and pops and general rustling of crud in the groove then get your records cleaned will fix it. Or it could be tape hiss if it is an analogue recording. Loads on some of them. Nothing you can do about that on either medium.



But why do I only notice this with certain albums??

The new phono stage is a Heed Quasar, which has high and low outputs and other adjustments, so maybe that will help.

[Macca]

Depends on the cause. if it is only some records could be they need a clean.

Or could be you are hearing pick-up from the studio. I have some records like that where they have recorded live or semi live and you get the environmental noise bleeding in through the various mikes.

[Richardl]

Depends on the cause. if it is only some records could be they need a clean.

Or could be you are hearing pick-up from the studio. I have some records like that where they have recorded live or semi live and you get the environmental noise bleeding in through the various mikes.



The record is very clean, I've recently got a good deal on a VPI record cleaner.
I expect a little surface noise, I can't even have this record on loud, the volume control won't go up that far.

[Macca]

Is this a particular recording we are talking about then?

[Richardl]

Is this a particular recording we are talking about then?



I'll have to check it out, I'm sure it's more than just this album. I've not had a listen to vinyl for couple of weeks while I get the set-up sorted out. I'll have a check later.

[Richardl]

I managed to suss out what was wrong, the bearing. I've only changed it to a genuine Technics one, but it seems to have done the job. The vinyl replay is now better than the digital.
I made the discovery by mistake, I tried the 1210 on without a record on full volume on the amp a couple of days back and heard a noise similar to a bump you here when you play a warped record. I just assumed it was the bearing, which I thought was an easy fix. The new bearing's in but the bump noise is still there and it's even there when the platter isn't on.......I know, should have checked that before :-)
Anyway, the bump noise isn't affecting the music quality..........me making the mistake of assuming the noise was the bearing has sorted the sound quality out.

I should say, thanks for everyone's help.

[Richardl]

I should also add the bumping noise was caused by homeplugs.