View Full Version : When does the SL-1200 become too expensive?
Ammonite Audio
05-09-2009, 11:25
I've been pondering whether the Technics SL-1200 remains good value, when large amounts of upgrade cash are bestowed upon it; and felt that the question merits a dedicated thread. I'm not talking specifically about the £5k deck reviewed in HFW, nor do I wish to do so.
Certain Techy upgrades are complete no-brainers, eg upgraded PSU and (I am certain) a modified main bearing. Re-wiring the standard arm is also a good thing, costing around £100 through Audio Origami. That little lot brings the cost of a new SL-1200 to a little over £1000. Taking the upgrade process further, along the lines of those recommended here by Marco and others, a new mat, feet, armboard and a good but inexpensive replacement arm like the Jelco SA-250 bring the total tally to the wrong side of £1500, before a cartridge is added. It's very easy to push the bill significantly beyond £1500 without too much thought: I have spent that much, and admit to feeling uneasy about getting a little carried away!
Now, that £1500 may still represent good value in terms of performance versus price, but the deck is now up against some serious retail competition, eg Townshend Rock, Avids, Funks, Clearaudios etc (not to mention a refurbished SP-10). I should add that I have no experience whatsoever of those decks, so I'm not in a position to comment on their relative performance.
Some AoS members may be in a position to comment on the basis of personal experiences with the Techy, upgrades and comparisons with other decks that compete on price; and I would be very interested in hearing their thoughts.
Good post Shuggie, I for one will monitor this one with great interest, so come on guys, make your case(s) :)
Cheers,
Not having done the comparison, this will have to be supposition on my part, but the Notts Analogue HyperSpace is an excellent turntable of the "heavy-n-solid" variety and sells for under £2,500 if memory serves. I'd respectfully suggest that this would be a main competitor to a fully loaded SL1200. I'm reliably informed by friends with good hearing that a totally standard SL1200 is left standing even by comparison with a Spacedeck...
The thing with the Techie is that you will get Rega levels of performance out of it without doing anything at all. the fact that one can easily and fairly painlessly upgrade it in stages YOURSELF as budget allows is a definite plus point IMO.
Please could Marco or Dave Cawley advise on the basic costs of a restored SP10 with plinth, as this would be the direction many SL1200 owners would take (they seem as anti-belt drive as the belt drive people are to the better direct drives out there :D)
I must admit that the memories I have of the Mentor/Decca combo I once had, along with the more recent sounds I heard from a NAS Dias/12" AceSpace/ZYX R100 were truly devastating and reminded me quite forcefully just how good LP's could be given a decent platform upon which to play them - I hardly play CD's at all these days, as my neglected LP collection gets a good thrashing whenever I'm able to do it.....;)
Yep, excellent post Shuggs. I'll get to this later as my level of experience here should provide some insight into what you ask.
Right now though, lunch awaits! :)
Laters,
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
05-09-2009, 13:14
I personaly would say that it comes down to the individual! Take into account an individals personal finances, experience of other turntables, personal taste in audio (to some the 1210 may not be beaten.. To that person good value remains at whatever they have spent on it) and aesthetics. Also as dsjr dave mentioned, an individuals desire to be able to tinker, excentricity is prob worth looking at as well!
I know as an answer this post is useless to you, I just I'd throw it in there!
Dave Cawley
05-09-2009, 14:21
Townshend Rock, Avids, Funks, Clearaudios
All the above are belt drive. The SL-1200 has the timing that you would expect of a direct drive. To buy new, and compare like for like, most would cost the same or up to three times as much.
One advantage of the SL1200 is that you can buy a used one on eBay, put a DL-103 or 440MLa on it, and use it straight away for a few hundred pounds. Later you can change the PSU, arm, cartridge, feet, mat, bearing, platter and electronics. In easy steps as the budget allows, or stop half way.
A SP-10 is always going to add well over £1,000 to the equation, if not considerably more.
For people with money and not much time, there is always the Avid Volvere and the SME-20. Or on a budget the Clearaudio Emotion.
All the decks I have mentioned in this post need careful matching of the arm and cartridge, and not by maths either. And with the exception of the Funk I have experience of all of them.
Regards
Dave
I've seen these threads all over this forums about SL1200 or 1210 upgrades here and there, and I've always asked myself why?:confused:
Is this not the same world famous Technics SL-1200 made legendary by the vinyl DJs?:gig:
If so, because it was a turntable produced for high performance/high abuse disc jockeying, with a high torque direct drive motor, light plastic base and chromed steel arm for economic and toughness, but not acoustic reasons, I would think that to start upgrading this unit to a high end audiophile turntable would be analogous to starting with a Jaguar and turning it into a Rolls. Converting a Bentley would be much much easier:)
Starting with the basics, how can a direct drive motor, a motor that is coupled directly to the platter, have a chance to compete with a belt drive motor in terms on sonic/vibration isolation, etc?
I don't mean to offend anyone, I just find it rather bizarre. This makes me also think of people who prefer Windows PCs over Macs, and they tend to do so because they like to fiddle with what's under the hood. I like to fiddle too, to an extent. I do own a Beresford DAC and have already replaced several opamps. The difference between me and, I gather, the people who like to tinker, is that when I do find an opamp that is very satisfying, that will be it for me. Nothing's perfect, but if something gives me satisfaction in the high 90th percentile, good enough for me.
The tinkerer may, even after finding a very satisfying opamp for his unit, continue to experiment, just because they can.
Nothing's wrong with tinkering, but often I find that those who like to tinker tend to fault devices with limited modding capability, when in fact the only "fault" is that the device is not easily upgradeable.
Ultimately, I just want to sit back and enjoy the music.
CD
Ammonite Audio
05-09-2009, 16:38
That's a perfectly reasonable view to take, until you've experienced a glimmer of what this apparently crap DJ deck can do, given enough help and guidance (from scratch it is pretty awful sounding, IMHO). It is most definitely capable of transcending its humble origins, quite dramatically so with a decent PSU and rewiring of the standard arm (and probably a modified main bearing too), but I do wonder where the law of diminishing returns kicks in, hence the point of this thread. Your observation about the 90th percentile is a good one, as I have on many occasions simply gone too far with tweaking and modifying, to no good effect, wasting much cash in the process, and I do not wish to repeat old mistakes with the Technics!
It is reassuring, though, that Dave Cawley is such a strong advocate for the SL-1200, when he does carry a good range of other turntables. As he says, there are plenty of used ones around, and every bit can be bought easily. They are easily sold on, too.
Direct drive decks do seem to have something about them in terms of musical 'drive', which is not necessarily missing from all belt drives, but once experienced, it's a tad difficult to go back, even if a belter may do other things better (a friend has a Raven-One, which is utterly glorious to listen to). Belt drives are clearly not inherently better, though. Both my DD decks share this sense of 'drive', although the Kenwood is perhaps more graceful and lyrical than the Technics. I sold my Heavied Spacedeck in favour of the Kenwood, which is an indication of how much I was surprised by that particular DD machine, but I have also warmed to the Technics, even though the journey up to this point has been a bit bumpy;). I have very much warmed to its ease of use, compact dimensions and the convenience of a lid!
Is the Technics worth all of the money that I have heaped on it so far?
Possibly.
Would I have a Raven-One instead, given the chance (academic question as I do not have the cash)?
Probably. But that's not an answer to my original question - I am genuinely interested to hear others' opinions and experiences.
I've seen these threads all over this forums about SL1200 or 1210 upgrades here and there, and I've always asked myself why?:confused:
I'm not a Techie devotee (given a different starting point maybe I would be) but I do understand why many are. The point about the 1200 / 1210 is that the deck had its development and tooling costs well and truly amortized many years ago. For a company to make a similar product from scratch today would result in a very expensive product. The 1200 / 1210 may not be intended to be an audiophile deck but it has a lot of what's required and just needs some mods to make a very fine audiophile deck.
Interesting thread this, so here's my 2pence worth.
I arrived at the 1210 after many years of following the saga of the resurgence of the once derided DD turntable which began in the pages of HFW, primarily driven by the enthusiasm of NK, whose opinions I have always rated highly. At first I thought it was just some kind of mid life crisis or something as like Codefus above I thought 'how is this possible?', we all 'know' belt drive is superior. Anyway time wore on and earlier this year it was obvious that my middle aged LP12 was in serious need of a little rejuvenation, so what to do? New tonearm? An Ekos is HOW MUCH!! A Keel then? Now you're really 'avin' a laarff (a friend of a friend has a machine shop, and he reckons a bit of CNC machining like that would cost about £50, btw). This was before Linn announced the Ridikulus and the Ulrikaka, which for some might redefine the meaning of value for money but not for me.
Well for less than the price of any of the Linn options, I now have a pretty heavily modded 1210 including the TimeStep psu, Herbies' Way Excellent mat, SME 309 (love that arm, it really is a work of art) and Isonoe feet, I think you can guess where it came from! Since then I've got hold of a Zu 103 and I would happily put this combination up against anything, yes anything. It might not come out on top but it certainly wouldn't be disgraced, in fact if the comparisons were done truly blind I think some people would get the shock of their lives.
Obviously I haven't heard all the possible alternatives but I have, over the years, heard most of the 'usual suspects' and the Techie is in a different league, the only thing that I would consider comes anywhere near it is the WT Amadeus GT and that is a lot more expensive and I'm not paying that sort of money for the 'kitchen table' build quality on offer.
My t/t isn't cheap and I'm not made of money but the performance more than justifies the outlay, if you can possibly stretch to it then do so, you wont regret it and if you can't do it in one go just do it in stages and enjoy the journey.:smoking:
Cheers
Well for less than the price of any of the Linn options, I now have a pretty heavily modded 1210 including the TimeStep psu, Herbies' Way Excellent mat, SME 309 (love that arm, it really is a work of art) and Isonoe feet, I think you can guess where it came from! Since then I've got hold of a Zu 103 and I would happily put this combination up against anything, yes anything. It might not come out on top but it certainly wouldn't be disgraced, in fact if the comparisons were done truly blind I think some people would get the shock of their lives.
Hear hear, Ralph! I completely agree. Trust me, it would be the same with a 103SA and Jelco SA-750. Excellent posts above from Clive, Dave and Shuggs, too :)
The point about the Techy in relation to this discussion is that, as Clive correctly says....
its development and tooling costs well and truly amortized many years ago. For a company to make a similar product from scratch today would result in a very expensive product.
.....Therefore, taking this into consideration, a modified SL-1200 or 1210 *cannot* be viewed as anything else other than a hi-end turntable in its own right that's in a similar performance ballpark as the SMEs, Brinkmanns, Clearaudios, and Kuzmas of this world - and indeed would probably cost just as much to produce if what Clive correctly said were not the case. It's crucial always to keep this in mind.
Sorry, Shuggs, but that's the mistake you're making when analysing the perceived 'value' of the Technics. Think of it this way instead: how does a £1500 modified Techy compare in value to a £3000 SME 10, or a similarly priced Avid Volvere? Personally, though, I think it can compete at an even higher performance level than that. I've heard, for example, an £11k Brinkmann La Grange, and can tell you that my own Techy definitely didn't disgrace itself in comparison!
I've got plenty more to add to this discussion, but right now I'm too busy listening to music on my "DJ deck"... :ner:
Codifus, I'll deal with you later my boy! ;)
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
05-09-2009, 21:13
The point about the Techy in relation to this discussion is that, as Clive correctly says....
.....Therefore, taking this into consideration, a modified SL-1200 or 1210 *cannot* be viewed as anything else other than a hi-end turntable in its own right that's in same performance ballpark as the SMEs, Brinkmanns, Clearaudios, and Kuzmas of this world - and indeed would probably cost just as much to produce if what Clive correctly said were not the case. It's crucial to always keep this in mind.
Sorry, Shuggs, but that's the mistake you're making when analysing the perceived 'value' of the Technics. Think of it this way instead: how does a £1500 modified Techy compare in value to a £3000 SME 10, or a similarly priced Avid Volvere? Personally, though, I think it can compete at an even higher performance level than that. I've heard, for example, an £11k Brinkmann La Grange, and can tell you that my own Techy definitely didn't disgrace itself in comparison!
Clive's point is an example of the insight that I hoped would come out of this thread, and it's pretty obvious now that I have read it; and I am pleased to have been educated and have my viewpoint altered. It's a pity that long ago Technics did not engineer in a really decent main bearing, though! What would the deck cost if designed and produced today, I wonder? Probably in excess of £1000.
Is the Brinkmann La Grange the DD one? I'd love to know something about the design and engineering of that deck, if anyone has anything to tell (purely curiosity, of course). Similarly, the Grand Prix Audio machine is interesting, and IIRC Dave Cawley has some experience of that. One of the reasons that I covet my mate's Raven-One is the astonishing standard of engineering and finish, which frankly goes way beyond what is expected even at its price level - I presume the Brinkmann is an engineering marvel too. So is the Audionote TT3 that I have heard at a friend's - if DD decks are said to have drive and timing, they are nothing in comparison to that (rather expensive and belt driven) beast!
twelvebears
05-09-2009, 21:30
Is this not the same world famous Technics SL-1200 made legendary by the vinyl DJs?:gig:
If so, because it was a turntable produced for high performance/high abuse disc jockeying
CD
Erm.... as far as I'm aware, that was never why the 1200 was produced. It just got adopted for the task because it was so bloody tough.
It was originally designed as a hifi turntable first and foremost, but got adapted down the line because it had become so popular with 'professional' users
When does the SL-1200 become too expensive?
When the wife finds out you been spending more on diamonds for it than her :lol:
When the wife finds out you been spending more on diamonds for it than her :lol:
That is probably the most accurate post in the whole thread J! :D
The Brinkmann LaGrange is a beautiful deck but perhaps not te best value deck
I have not heard the Brinkmann Oasis (direct drive) turntable http://www.brinkmann-audio.de/inhalt/en/whitepaper/oasis.pdf
The Raven AC is pretty special sothe 1210 mod TT is in the real big biy league so is probarly the best value for getting into the top league in performance terms
Peter Stockwell
06-09-2009, 06:54
it was a turntable produced for high performance/high abuse disc jockeying, with a high torque direct drive motor, light plastic base and chromed steel arm for economic and toughness, but not acoustic reasons,
Light plastic! Are you kidding ? You've obviously never had one in bits on the kitchen table. The TT is mostly an aliminium casting, damped by a resinous base. The plastic lid is arguably tacky. The cache for the resinous damping block is more rubber than plastic.
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm286/user34_Peter/SL1210%20and%20SME%20IV/th_IMG_2578.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm286/user34_Peter/SL1210%20and%20SME%20IV/?action=view¤t=IMG_2578.jpg)
The only serious criticism I have is that the threaded holes for fixing the feet are in this rubbery housing and not in the aliminium base. I'll bet there's a good reason for that too.
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm286/user34_Peter/SL1210%20and%20SME%20IV/th_IMG_2584.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm286/user34_Peter/SL1210%20and%20SME%20IV/?action=view¤t=IMG_2584.jpg)
Ammonite Audio
06-09-2009, 07:08
.................
The only serious criticism I have is that the threded holes for fixing the feet are in this rubbery housing and not in the aliminium base. I'll bet there's a good reason for that too.
I agree. The net effect must be the same as having two springs working at the same time, not necessarily in phase. I'm wondering how I can arrange for the Stillpoints that I use to attach directly to the alloy chassis, without the end result looking like the dog's dinner. The 'good reason' is almost certainly for additional isolation, but it's a pretty ropey way of addressing the issue, as the resonant frequency of the feet/base must we well into the audio band.
Peter, I think that Coddy is gently taking the piss, but we'll humour him for the sake of entertainment! ;)
David,
I've seen these threads all over this forums about SL1200 or 1210 upgrades here and there, and I've always asked myself why?
Because they represent the basis for becoming top-notch turntables at a fraction of the price of ones from 'prestige badge' manufacturers - simple!
Is this not the same world famous Technics SL-1200 made legendary by the vinyl DJs?
No, it's famous for starting out its life as a top quality hi-end turntable for the Japanese market, developed from the legendary SP10, and since adopted by DJs because of its rugged construction and quick start-up time, due its high torque superb quality motor unit.
If so, because it was a turntable produced for high performance/high abuse disc jockeying, with a high torque direct drive motor, light plastic base...
As Peter has shown, there's nothing "light" or plastic about the SL1200/1210. It weighs 15kg and there's no plastic anywhere in sight! Where did you get that from?
...and chromed steel arm for economic and toughness, but not acoustic reasons, I would think that to start upgrading this unit to a high end audiophile turntable would be analogous to starting with a Jaguar and turning it into a Rolls. Converting a Bentley would be much much easier:)
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with your analogy, but the Technics has 'Rolls Royce' standards of construction compared to many so-called 'hi-end' turntables on the market, some costing much more. I'll repeat it again: you modify the Technics because the raw ingredients are there from which to create a truly world-class turntable. The motor unit is of exceptionally high quality, and it is this which forms the basis for any modifications to or replacement of its less than world-class partnering ancillaries.
Starting with the basics, how can a direct drive motor, a motor that is coupled directly to the platter, have a chance to compete with a belt drive motor in terms on sonic/vibration isolation, etc?
You're making the mistake of concentrating on one specific area of turntable design instead of looking at the bigger picture as a whole. A turntable is about the sum of its parts, not what those specific parts do in isolation. Instead of coming up with woolly theories to support your argument, have you actually heard a fully-modified SL-1200/1210 and compared it to a typical 'low-mass' belt-drive T/T?
If not, then with respect you should keep your ill-informed remarks to yourself and come back when you know what you're talking about.
Whatever 'benefits' the low-mass belt-drive method may have (high-mass is different), to my ears (and those of many others) these 'benefits' pale into insignificance compared to the speed and pitch instability issues exhibited, translating into a slurring and wavering of notes, particularly with solo piano, which once one's ears become attuned to this effect, renders most of them un-listenable. A direct-drive mechanism, done well in the case of a modified SL-1200/1210, is quite simply more accurate at reproducing the musical information on records with minimal coloration or 'sonic signature'.
I don't mean to offend anyone, I just find it rather bizarre.
You're not "offending" anyone - merely theorising and making daft remarks (which seem largely founded on ignorance) by quoting the usual blinkered dogma spouted by the (uninitiated) belt-drive fanboys, or dealers with vested interests. It always amazes me the amount of people willing to jump on a bandwagon instead of trying something for themselves and therefore being qualified to comment from practical experience. Quite simply, unless you've heard a fully-modified SL-1210/1210 (Sound Hi-fi, KAB, or whatever) you don't know what you're talking about in terms of what one is capable of sonically or musically.
Nothing's wrong with tinkering, but often I find that those who like to tinker tend to fault devices with limited modding capability, when in fact the only "fault" is that the device is not easily upgradeable.
At last you've written something that I wholeheartedly agree with! It's always far better having kit that's totally 'sorted' from the beginning, but how much equipment genuinely like this is available and affordable? There's nearly always some scope for improvement with most things. You mentioned the Beresford DAC, and that's a prime example.
It's far better to modify affordable equipment which is intrinsically excellent (the Beresford or the Technics, for example) than pay through the nose for some expensive over-priced piece of 'badge hi-fi' which quite simply fails to deliver the performance that one has paid for. I could cite numerous examples of this. It's about finding equipment that delivers the biggest bang for your buck, whether it be something that's modified or used as standard.
Ultimately, I just want to sit back and enjoy the music.
Me too - but sometimes it's worthwhile going the extra mile to ensure that your favourite music is reproduced as faithfully as possible, which is why so many people modify and upgrade their Beresford DACs or Technics turntables. Once done, they become veritable giant-killers - and *that*, is the most satisfying thing of all! :gig:
Marco.
If not, then with respect you should keep your ignorance to yourself and come back when you know what you're talking about.
Marco.
Marco,
Although I am sure that Dave is more than capable of defending his opinions and will most probably do so, I have to say that the above comes across as harsh and, dare I say it, arrogant, IMHO.
You are constantly posting what a friendly place this forum is and how it encourages a 'broad church' of members and opinions - how does your statement fit into that ethos?
Having a bad day are we?
Cheers,
Nope, not at all, Dave :)
I just get a little tired of people posting stuff on forums which seem obviously based on hearsay rather than practical experience. David's remarks about the Technics appeared clearly to fall into that category. If he returns to the discussion and demonstrates differently, I will gladly retract my comments and apologise if necessary. David appeared to be on a 'piss take', as that's how his post read, so this is what set the tone of my reply.
My motto is only offer opinions on subjects you genuinely know something about (we've discussed this before if you remember), which is why you'll rarely see me involved in technical discussions about digital equipment or such of a similar nature in the D.I.Y section. I stick to what I know.
I expect others to observe the same 'protocol' :cool:
Marco.
Look, the SL1200 as we know it today is derived from a series of HIFI turntable models from the early seventies. Noone ever complained about the basic W&F or rumble qualities of these decks, merely that they were feedback prone in the early days and Technics themselves suspended them on cotton threads to test the rumble levels of the drive system.
As the seventies went on, technics developed all sorts of arrangements to improve the feedback issues - my SL150 has a plastic base with the slightly squidgey feet screwed to it, giving a form of double suspension. The interior of the deck is hollow though. The next models had a sprung sub-chassis in a tray form, the drive and arm connected to a suspended base, the feet connected to the top plate (if that makes any sense to you). By the time of the Quartz locked models with high torque (SL1400/1500/1600 mk2) they had reverted back to the solid construction as I recall, but the base and frame were further re-inforced. In the UK, at any rate, the 1200mk2 was all but ignored when it came along and I don't think many Technics hifi dealers sold them. The club circuit got hold of them and I think we owe DJ's worldwide our thanks for keeping this dear old deck going... The 1200mk2 has a thick rubbery filling inside and the electronics are now under the platter unlike mine..
I'd like to know if the mk5g that Marco has featured any real tonearm improvements. I understand the wires were upgraded and possibly the arm-pipe? maybe a cheap interim arm upgrade could be re-wiring and rubber (or similar) filling the pipe and making up a new counterweight to balance it?????
Light plastic! Are you kidding ? You've obviously never had one in bits on the kitchen table. The TT is mostly an aliminium casting, damped by a resinous base. The plastic lid is arguably tacky. The cache for the resinous damping block is more rubber than plastic.
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm286/user34_Peter/SL1210%20and%20SME%20IV/th_IMG_2578.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm286/user34_Peter/SL1210%20and%20SME%20IV/?action=view¤t=IMG_2578.jpg)
The only serious criticism I have is that the threaded holes for fixing the feet are in this rubbery housing and not in the aliminium base. I'll bet there's a good reason for that too.
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm286/user34_Peter/SL1210%20and%20SME%20IV/th_IMG_2584.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm286/user34_Peter/SL1210%20and%20SME%20IV/?action=view¤t=IMG_2584.jpg)
Peter, you're right. My bad. The 1200 is heavy duty. I've actually owned 2 because I was a DJ in a former life. What I meant to say is that the plastic is cheapish looking. It was quite heavy as you've reminded me.
Even though I've gotten rid of the 1200s I still have 2 of the cheaper 1200 "knock-offs," The Gemini PT-1000s. Like the Technics, they are direct drive, with thick plastic base and a chromed tonearm.
I wonder if these mods that you all perform on the 1200s could be applied to the gemini? I was going to look for a budget belt drive system to record the remainder of my old vinyl to digital, and maybe modifying the Gemini's might be a better idea.
As you can see, I've been enlightened:)
Nope, not at all, Dave :)
I just get a little tired of people posting stuff on forums which seem obviously based on hearsay rather than practical experience. David's remarks about the Technics appeared clearly to fall into that category. If he returns to the discussion and demonstrates differently, I will gladly retract my comments and apologise if necessary. David appeared to be on a 'piss take', as that's how his post read, so this is what set the tone of my reply.
My motto is only offer opinions on subjects you genuinely know something about (we've discussed this before if you remember), which is why you'll rarely see me involved in technical discussions about digital equipment or such of a similar nature in the D.I.Y section. I stick to what I know.
I expect others to observe the same 'protocol' :cool:
Marco.
Marco, you're a moderator, and your reaction to my post makes me wonder:scratch:
I wasn't "taking the piss."
I tried my best to chose my words carefully so as not to offend anyone, and was open to being enlightened. You made a lot of assumptions from my post
and reacted to those assumptions, rather than the post itself. Fact is, you were the only one who reacted so negatively to my posting.
I would surmrise that, being a moderator, that you've been dealing with several unruly people and automatically thought I was one of them simply because I had an opinion that didn't agree with yours. Or maybe just a bad day.
I bet you don't even realize that I was not the person who called the 1200 a crappy DJ turntable. Au contraire, I love and still hold a high regard for the 1200 as a DJ turntable. And the fact that with a few mods it can be made into a respectable audiophile turntable, I am enthused.
Hi David,
I would surmrise that, being a moderator, that you've been dealing with several unruly people and automatically thought I was one of them...
That was exactly it. I had you down as another Technics 'detractor'/belt-drive fanboy with a chip on his shoulder - there are plenty about. Sorry!
As I said earlier:
If he returns to the discussion and demonstrates differently, I will gladly retract my comments and apologise if necessary.
I of course apologise unreservedly :)
No hard feelings, I hope :cool:
Marco.
...and that demonstrates why this is such a great forum - Marco - good on you for "taking it on the chin" - nice to see that you're not always right ;)
Hi David,
......
No hard feelings, I hope :cool:
Marco.
No problem, dude. It's all good.:cool:
twelvebears
08-09-2009, 06:12
Marco,
Although I am sure that Dave is more than capable of defending his opinions and will most probably do so, I have to say that the above comes across as harsh and, dare I say it, arrogant, IMHO.
You are constantly posting what a friendly place this forum is and how it encourages a 'broad church' of members and opinions - how does your statement fit into that ethos?
Having a bad day are we?
Cheers,
Sorry Marco but I'm with Dave on this one. I've re-read David's initial post, and while it may have been based on the knee-jerk reaction of surprise from discovering people dropping quite a lot of cash on a 'DJ deck' (and let's be fair, it's easy to understand why that view exists), there was nothing really controversial or offensive, and I agree that parts of your reply came across as a bit OTT.
For me, David's closing line was the one which shows where his heart lies, and one which is surely worthy of a slightly less blunt response:
Ultimately, I just want to sit back and enjoy the music.
Good stuff, dudes :)
Marco.
P.S Steve, we've 'kissed and made up now' (no tongues, either :eyebrows:). Have you not read the above, mate?
twelvebears
08-09-2009, 06:23
Good stuff, dudes :)
Marco.
P.S Steve, we've 'kissed and made up now' (no tongues, either :eyebrows:). Have you not read the above, mate?
Sorry Marco, got part way through my response to your 'shoot first, ask questions later' reply and got distracted by a cat related home emergency and then didn't refresh before posting this morning. :doh:
Glad to see calm and order has been restored to the universe whilst I was away. :)
No worries, these things happen. We're all human :smoking:
Hope your cat's ok.
Marco.
twelvebears
08-09-2009, 07:21
No worries, these things happen. We're all human :smoking:
Hope your cat's ok.
Marco.
He won't be when I get my hands on him.
Emergency was caused by the cat, rather than happening to the cat.
Just combine gravity, carpet, wine (red) and cat in an equation in any combination you like and try and come up with anything which doesn't = DISASTER :steam:
Dave Cawley
08-09-2009, 08:01
A home is not a home without a cat. Dave
http://www.dartmouth.tv/cats/images/phoebe/IMG_4850.jpg
A home is not a home without a cat. Dave
You named the cat after yourself?:)
We had a cat once, called Cookie, short for (you've guessed) Cooking Fat:lolsign:
The Vinyl Adventure
08-09-2009, 15:15
my cats are called grubby, imp and soldier... and they are better than all of yours cats put together so nerr
this is grubby:
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/52193_1219713265-1.jpg
:ner:Hi Hamish,
We are off topic again - naughty naughty - but I just thought that I would warn you, if we are going to have cat beauty/personality competition, mine (our's) will leave your's way behind, so there!!!:ner: :ner: :ner:
Cheers,
The Vinyl Adventure
08-09-2009, 16:02
:ner:Hi Hamish,
We are off topic again - naughty naughty - but I just thought that I would warn you, if we are going to have cat beauty/personality competition, mine (our's) will leave your's way behind, so there!!!:ner: :ner: :ner:
Cheers,
the my freind is crap ... my cats rule! yours smell like wee-wee :lolsign:
the my freind is crap ... my cats rule! yours smell like wee-wee :lolsign:
What is this forum coming to?? I thought that member abuse, including member's cats, was a total no-no. The mods must have nodded off again !!
Tut tut !! :lolsign:
No, no, no, my cats are even lurvlier than any of yoorz... *MINE* rool and yoorz smell of sick and jobbyfied cat litter - so there!!!! :ner: :ner:
Marco.
I want another cat.. Love pussies, me ;)
So many pussies so little time, Dave? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Chance would be a fine thing............................................. ............................
The Vinyl Adventure
08-09-2009, 18:02
perverts... incocent convo about the quality of our respective kitty cats and you people have to turn it in to smut! im shocked and apalled!
as a side note marco, frankly, i dont belive how your cats could be better than mine! i recon even if they dont smell they are prob minging and limpy or smumat
twelvebears
08-09-2009, 19:23
Fortunately for Percy, he's pretty cute and so gets away with more than he should...
http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv187/twelvebears/Percy.jpg
The Vinyl Adventure
08-09-2009, 19:43
hes like a chubby grubby!most cute!
Ammonite Audio
08-09-2009, 20:30
That's not cute!
Actually he is, but so too are my little monsters (cue more thread drift):
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s301/hugocass/Sl-1210/DSCF0349.jpg
The Grand Wazoo
08-09-2009, 20:53
I was just begining to think there's an unhealthy number of cat lovers on this particular site.
We need some more dogs - that'd thin the buggers out a bit!
The Grand Wazoo
08-09-2009, 21:04
Meet my mate Merlot..........
............he's the one with the mad cat-scary eyes.
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/8899/imgp1766x.jpg
Catz rool! :ner:
Shpeekarz....... Ah, that's more like it! :eyebrows:
How's it all sounding, babby?
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
08-09-2009, 22:05
It's actually not too bad.
Had some troubles with a little bit o' one note bass for a while there, but now we've got some real acrobatic stuff going on
Hypnotoad
20-09-2009, 22:38
I have a quick question for those who have upgraded their SL1200's.
What causes that awful feedback like sound you get when you touch the plinth or lower the dust cover on the standard issue one?
Mine is terrible, I don't get any of that on my Pro-Ject that sits beside it on the same shelf. So it's not the shelf, not the cart either as I have swapped that to the other table and no hint of it.
Is it any one thing or a number of things?
Also what do I need to upgrade to bring the sound out, when compared to my other table with the same cart, Denon DL-110, same album it's like I threw a blanket over the speakers, with the Technics.
Is it the arm or power supply or both?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Dave Cawley
21-09-2009, 07:36
They don't normally do this, something is faulty.
Regards
Dave
PS, LOVE your signature, simply brilliant!
Oh come on Dave Cawley, stating the obvious isn't much help to Hypnotoad as he already knows something ain't right. He asks for advice but none given. I'd also be interested in some proper and knowledgeable answer as to what may cause it?
Dave Cawley
21-09-2009, 09:18
Rich, why the aggression! I simply pointed out it is a fault, not something generic, quite useful I thought? What is your input?
I just hate it one someone jumps in to have a pop and makes no effort to help.
Dave
Yeah, Ritch, I have to say the tone of your post was completely uncalled for. Are you having a bad day?
Hi Hypnotoad,
What's your first name and where are you from? Have you popped into the welcome area yet and introduced yourself and your system? If not, please do so - ta :)
I agree with Dave - your SL-1200 shouldn't do that, even without it being modified. Where do you have it placed? Ideally, it should be on some form of proper equipment support to help isolate it from the environment and the effects of resonance/vibration. You could also try removing the stock feet and using some Sorbothane ones instead.
All turntables respond positively or negatively to where they're placed, direct-drives more so than others, so it's very important that you pay proper attention to where your table is located.
As for your other point, without more detail about what exactly it is you're hearing, what your system consists of, and what your other turntable is, it's hard to say.
If you can supply more info then we'll take it from there :cool:
Marco.
Yeah, Ritch, I have to say the tone of your post was completely uncalled for. Are you having a bad day?
Marco.
Hi Guys,
I realise I'm doing my reputation for being a maverick a power of no good at all but I have to disagree with Marco here and agree with Ritch. IMHO, to treat a request for help with such disdain, particularly on a forum that prides itself on it's friendly and helpful ethos,was less than helpful. And NO Dave, I'm not having another pop at you, I'm just calling it as I see it. If my contribution to this post is unwelcome in some areas, I'm sorry but it is my honest opinion, free speech and all that.
Politeness costs nowt!
The rest of Marco's post was exactly what I have come to expect from this forum, and Marco in particularl - pity Dave couldn't sing from the same hymn sheet straight away - I'm sure he will when he gets the question phrased in a manner that suits him, but it shouldn't be necessary, IMHO.
Cheers,
Whoa...! Guys, you are a touchy lot. No bad hair day here and no agression meant or intented. The guy asks for advice and fails to get it and only gets a one liner reply with nothing useful in it and now it's my problem???. My input? I don't have any on the question for advice otherwise I wouldn't have said [QUOTE][I'd also be interested in some proper and knowledgeable answer as to what may cause it? /QUOTE] I would also like to know the answer. If I knew I'd have tried to answer. Bye!
Hi Dave,
I'm sorry, but I don't see how:
They don't normally do this, something is faulty.
...could be construed as impolite? :confused:
Dave C is right and simply telling it as it is - the deck must be faulty as it's not supposed to do what Hypnotoad described.
How is Dave C supposed to diagnose what's wrong without having more information to go on? I'm sure that armed with such information he will more than willingly go into more detail and offer his advice as to what the possible solution may be :)
Hi Rich,
I think you've misinterpreted Dave C's post the same way as Dave K has, which prompted you to reply the way you did. The fallibility of the written word! Anyway, apologies for saying you were having a bad day.
Marco.
Whoa...! Guys, you are a touchy lot. Bye!
Hi Ritch,
Hope you don't mean that last word as finally as it sounds - everybody is entitled to have a bad day once in a while, both you and Dave, (and me, ask Marco :lol: ). Stick around, neither of the two opening lines in the posts in question are typical of the response you can expect on this forum, IMHO and E, and you will get all the help you need from both guys, and others, until your problem is sorted. Seriously this is the best source of information on getting the best out of your Techie that you are likely to find anywhere - stay with it.
Cheers,
Dave Cawley
21-09-2009, 11:06
DaveK are you going to derail every post of mine? And yes, in my eyes you are unwelcome. I showed no distain at all. I'm fed up with you jumping in just to have a pop at me. I think others are too.
Dave
Guys,
Let's leave it there please! Any further off-topic comments like that will be removed without warning.
Back to the thread topic now, please... :)
Marco.
Hi Marco and Dave,
Hi Dave,
I'm sorry, but I don't see how:
They don't normally do this, something is faulty.
...could be construed as impolite?
Don't you really? Imagine how you'd react if you took your car into a garage, explained a problem you were having and got that for a response, unless it was said with a very wide grin on the face.
Dave C, sincerely I have no agenda, hidden or otherwise, as far as you and your posts are concerned. I was brought up to be polite to everyone and it grates when I see/hear/read impoliteness in others, intended or not. Surely you will concede that your post could have been a little more constructive, as Marco's was, even if it wasn't intended.
I have never and would never question your intentions or expertise, it's just the way you put it over sometimes.
Cheers,
Yes, Dave, but you'd have to give the mechanic a bit more information, and he'd also have to examine the car first, (Dave C can't examine the turntable) in order for him to diagnose the problem. Also consider that Dave C might have been busy then and therefore didn't have the time to type a lengthy response.
Ok, all points noted now. No more of arguing now from anyone, otherwise I get my eraser out ;)
Cheers!
Marco.
Cheers Marco,
No problems with that.
Back to topic: - how to help Ritch - all hands to that pump.
This reminds me of the attitiude of myself (:() and others following the same narrow path back in the late seventies/early eighties - "Where can you get spares for a Sugden "Conoisseur" turntable?"
"If I were you, I'd chuck it in the bin, it's so bad..." or words to that effect. result, one "customer" who'll never set foot in your shop again.....
Back to "thumpy" Techies.. Strikes me as if the feet have been screwed right up so there's no "give" at all. It could also be loose arm mounting screws, loose motor/bearing mounting screws, a loose base-board, inappropriate mat choice, loose headshell and cartridge within it..
Any of the above, plus a few I've forgotten, would give this anomaly compared to a Pro-Ject equivalent. My first route would be to carefully remove the base and check the arm-plate mountings for tightness - not to over-do it, but to make sure there's no looseness. same with all the other things I suggested. As my 150 is different underneath to the 1200 mk2 era on, I think the feet have a rubber cushioning inside. If this is so, make sure that there is some flexure within each foot. If not, replace or, in any case, get some sorbothane "boots" which should help no end. A dedicated mat (Spacemat for cheapness?) will also help no end once everything is checked for tightness.
Rega's can do this too and if the nuts holding the main bearing and tonearm (pre current ones) have worked loose, the performance of the deck is wrecked, along with the tracking ability of some cartridges. One reason why Rega dealers should be well trained in sorting out turntable problems - I understand that a little while ago, not all were.....
As far as handling noises on the Tecchie goes, mine's always done this, and I assumed it was par for the course, so I'm interested to find it's not. If I tap the body of the deck I can hear it amplified through the speakers - likewise, there's a low frequency rumble as the lid closes. I'll check my feet (std ones - yes I know I need to change them!) but it'll be interesting to see how the sound quality is affected by changing them.
Jason
As far as handling noises on the Tecchie goes, mine's always done this, and I assumed it was par for the course, so I'm interested to find it's not. If I tap the body of the deck I can hear it amplified through the speakers - likewise, there's a low frequency rumble as the lid closes. I'll check my feet (std ones - yes I know I need to change them!) but it'll be interesting to see how the sound quality is affected by changing them.
Jason
Hi Jason,
Ive got a basic Techie with upgraded headshell and cartridge but it has NEVER made such a noise as you describe and mine's also got basic feet. I believe the real Techie afficianados remove the lid permanently - maybe we now know why ;). Have you tried removing your's? it just lifts out of the housings on the rear.
Cheers,
Dave Cawley
21-09-2009, 14:05
If I tap the body of the deck I can hear it amplified through the speakers - likewise, there's a low frequency rumble as the lid close
This is quite normal.
Dave
I guess that it depends on how much you can hear the tapping, which will show you how well your deck is isolated...
I can turn my preamp up full with the needle on the record and rap my knuckles on the top plate of the deck and only hear the faintest of taps through the speakers, but then my 1210 is on 18 levels of Mana ;)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
21-09-2009, 14:34
Mine has a low frequecy thud if I tap it too, less so since I have isolated it it and less so if I put the weight on it!
I think it should be pointed out to our new member that this minor kafuf between a few members is in no way an inherent trait of this forum. It is almost entirly unheard of on here, and should be disregarded in this instance as banter! This forum is well moderated and the general feeling is usually completely amicable between members! Don't let it put you off.
Bad daves, naughty! ;)
Hypnotoad
21-09-2009, 22:06
As far as handling noises on the Tecchie goes, mine's always done this, and I assumed it was par for the course, so I'm interested to find it's not. If I tap the body of the deck I can hear it amplified through the speakers - likewise, there's a low frequency rumble as the lid closes. I'll check my feet (std ones - yes I know I need to change them!) but it'll be interesting to see how the sound quality is affected by changing them.
Jason
This is what I am experiencing and thought it was normal until I got a Pro-Ject Perspective. I thought maybe because the Technics isn't suspended like the Pro-Ject.
I wouldn't mind spending the money on a new arm and PSU if I thought I could surpass the performance of the Perspective with 9 cc arm.
The Technics is far easier to use and setup than the Pro-Ject and I still use it a lot.
However at the moment I am captivated by the sound of the Perspective since I got a Benz Micro Ace.
I know this is not the be all and end all in gear but considering last year I didn't even own a working stereo, it's been a revelation, I have purchased a few hundred albums and spend most of my spare time listening to them. My wife loves them also.
The rest of my spare time is spent scouring Craigslist and Audiogon for bargains. And record stores, thrift shops etc, buying albums, the only new one I have purchase was The Beatles - Love double album.
Hi HT,
I'll advise you more on what you've written later (listening to music at the moment)... In the meantime, I would direct you to my earlier post and the comments I made therein:
Hi Hypnotoad,
What's your first name and where are you from? Have you popped into the welcome area yet and introduced yourself and your system? If not, please do so - ta :)
Please attend to this at your earliest convenience, thanks!
Marco.
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