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View Full Version : Buy a Technics SL-1200 or Renovate Garrard 401/SME 3009



Alex_UK
05-09-2009, 08:41
Hi guys,

Well, my Pro-ject RPM 4 Turntable hardly gets used, because it just doesn't sound good enough compared to my digital sources, so I'm thinking of flogging it and putting the money into another project.

I have an old Garrad 401, with an SME 3009, fitted in an old wooden plinth (painted white) - this hasn't seen active service for about 5 years, and so will need a complete "sort out" I suspect, but my intention has always been to put it into a really nice plinth, (slate, probably) though the SME is worth keeping, I would need a decent cartridge as it has a 20 yr old cheapo Audio Technica fitted.

Anyway, since joining AoS, I've become "aware" (shall we say! :eyebrows:) of the Technics SL-1200 and the hi-fi possibilites from modding them, and the obvious support trom everyone here is an added bonus.

If I was to spend say £500 on either option, which would you do? What is likely to give me the best "sound per pound" investment, or, is there a better way to go?

The Grand Wazoo
05-09-2009, 08:47
I reckon it'd be a bit mad to junk the potential you have in your Garrard before you see what it can do.
If you end up not liking it, you'll almost certainly get your money back - you're one step up already as you've not spent any of that £500, but you've got an excellent foundation to start from. Your Garrard budget is effectively £300-£500 bigger than your Technics budget.

That Garrard could be fantastic.

Just my pinion!

The Grand Wazoo
05-09-2009, 09:08
............but I'd personally be ditching the SME

John
05-09-2009, 11:13
I tend to agree with Chris on this
Get a better arm for the 401 and put on decent slate plinth you will have something very special either way you going to have a great TT and there are many here who can help with the 401 also

Alex_UK
05-09-2009, 11:26
Just to add, the Garrard will never be sold (nor the arm or plinth for that matter) for sentimental reasons, but I don't see doing it up as being a problem, more a tribute to it and the journey it has made into my possession.

I'm going to drag it out and give it a check over and fire it up - It's never been used in the context of my current system (any of it) so will be interesting, and might just help me make up my mind if it works!

If I decide to change arms, what would be the recommendations? And cartridge options?

Marco
05-09-2009, 11:37
Hi Alex,

You may be surprised at this, but I too would go for the Garrard option - purely because of the probable higher return on SPPV (as Chris has mentioned).

I love the Techy (and all high quality direct-drives) but only recommend them when it's appropriate to do so. I am no blinkered 'fanboy' ;)

However, the first thing to do is have the Garrard fully serviced by someone with the requisite experience, so that you have the piece of mind of knowing that everything is in full working order. Get the basics right first! The good news is that it's a solidly engineered 'mechanical beast', and so everything in it can be made to work optimally, if necessary, as when new.

Once that's been done, my advice would be to spend as much of your £500 budget as is necessary to obtain the best quality plinth you can get (unless the existing one is already superb), and to plan in advance for the possible use of a 12" arm later (another reason for opting for the 401 over the Techy). Garrards (like any standalone motor units) are extremely plinth-dependant, so get the best you can afford. I'd probably go for something in slate. You can keep the original plinth aside somewhere for the sentimental reasons you've outlined.

Once having done all of the above, you may find that most of your £500 budget is gone, but it will have been well spent because you'll have put the right 'platform' in place in order to get the best performance from your turntable.

In my opinion, it would be better to spend the bulk (or all) of your budget this way than cut costs with the plinth to fund the purchase of a new tonearm. I'd even look at obtaining a high quality off-board PSU before I'd change the arm. The 3009 is not ideal, but more than good enough with, say, a quality Nagaoka MM like Dave K uses (£68 or so, if I remember) to get you by until such times as you can afford to purchase an arm that significantly outperforms the 3009.

Which type of 3009 is it - the fixed or detachable headshell variety?

Anyway, I hope this helps :cool:

Marco.

Alex_UK
05-09-2009, 11:46
Great advice there thanks Marco - it's the detachable headshell version of the 3009, which I think is not as good as the fixed one?

I could spend more, but I'm self imposing a figure here - but we all know what will happen, don't we?! Following the service -> plinth -> (PSU?) -> Arm route I can choose to stop at any point... Or, spend more - which will then show up the rest of my system, then I'll want "glowy bits" - I may as well sell my soul to the devil now! ;)

Thanks again for you guys taking the time to post.

Marco
05-09-2009, 12:08
Great advice there thanks Marco - it's the detachable headshell version of the 3009, which I think is not as good as the fixed one?


You're welcome. That's what we're here for :)

Well some would say that, but I wouldn't necessarily agree. Much of that mindset is based on a lack of experience and/or being brainwashed by the popular beliefs of the so-called cognoscenti.

I'd say that a fixed headshell 3009 is marginally better than the detachable headshell version (although you'd struggle to hear it) - *BUT*, fit a high quality detachable headshell (such as the now widely-available Sumiko) to a detachable headshell 3009, and the rules change!

Depending on your budget, I'd be doing just that and fitting as good a Nagaoka as you can afford from the following range:

http://www.musonic.co.uk/cartridges-nagaoka-c-4_22.html

...Or perhaps a Shure M97 xE from here:

http://www.mantra-audio.co.uk/shure_cartridges.html

Or a Stanton 681EEE:

http://www.htfr.com/more-info/MR250774

Those, IMO, are the pick of the 'giant-killing' affordable MMs currently on the market. I'm not a fan of the Ortofon or Goldring MMs which are so popular with the hi-fi press.

Trust me, Alex, the 3009 is a great arm for MM cartridges (this is what it was originally designed for), and used with any of the cartridges above on a Sumiko headshell would give excellent performance.

As for your budget, I'd recommend that you set a realistic one and stick to it rigidly, doing things a stage at a time (but crucially in the right order), otherwise like you say you'll end up spending a fortune!

If of course you can afford to bypass the MM route, then sell the 3009 on Ebay (you'll get decent money for it) and buy whatever arm you fancy to support your MC cartridge of choice. I can give suitable recommendations here if you wish :smoking:

Marco.

DSJR
05-09-2009, 12:32
Firstly, improve the mounting arrangements of the RPM4 and get it out of room corners if possible. get the best out of this and THEN look to upgrade!



I'd agree with Marco on the Nagaoka recommendation, but unless the 681EEE has improved in the intervening decades since I owned and used them, I'd say the Stanton is DULL, DULL, DULL and bland with it, whereas Nagaoka's are lively and bright IMO. There are plenty of vintage test reports I can post as backup to these comments too if necessary ;) The Nagaoka or AT440MLa should liven up the RPM4 as well, by the way, although I don't know what Ortofon is fitted to the Pro-ject..

The Rotal phono stage is very competent, but hardly magic-making as the Croft is IMO. For £350 you could have a complete Croft preamp INCLUDING a phono stage - it would be worth an email to Glenn (or PM to HiFi dave) to find out exactly what the differences are between his baby preamp and the main £700 model. Can the Creek phono stages for sale on eBay be used with your amp? Apparently, someone here (I forget whom I'm afraid) designed it and can help with mods to enhance it further to SE standards...

The Garrard you own - FETTLE IT!!! I'd also look at plinth options, even if you don't ditch the one it's in. The SME is fine for Ortofon OM series cartridges or vintage ADC's and Shures and Johnnie at Audio Origami can re-wire and foam-fill the arm tube for you. I love using SME's, they're so well and delicately made and they sound good with the right cartridge (including their headshell gunk and very light damping).. I'm currently still using an Ortofon M20E Super and it is so sweet and musical without sounding dull and lifeless as so many vintage mm types can. I'm using a CAP210 with it to get the loading right. The VMS models are not as good IMO (I have a VMS30/CAP210 ready to go)..

Marco
05-09-2009, 12:54
Hi Dave,


but unless the 681EEE has improved in the intervening decades since I owned and used them, I'd say the Stanton is DULL, DULL, DULL and bland with it...


It must have done, because trust me, it doesn't sound in any way dull - otherwise I wouldn't be recommending it. The Stanton is lively, detailed, and very musical sounding with a punchy and extended bass.

Let's put it this way, it's as 'dull sounding' as an M3D with an N21D stylus! ;)

Put yer vintage test reports in the bin and use yer lugs to reassess it sometime :ner:

Marco.

DSJR
05-09-2009, 13:00
No Marco, it's "duller" than the m3D/N21. I think I still have one somewhere, but the tip is shagged..

In 1974 when I started in a "proper" HiFi shop, all the staff had abandoned the V15III (very popular nonetheless) for either 681EEE's or ADC XLM's. I've owned and extensively used all three and would say that the V15III is only good with the HE stylus, where it takes on a whole new and better persona IMO. The EEE styli used to vary in tracking ability but were dull at the time and my favourite was the XLM, which I still rate today (I have examples of all, from mk1 to Phase IV, plus the ZLM).

Marco
05-09-2009, 13:03
No Marco, it's "duller" than the m3D/N21.


Not in my system it isn't! :)

I've got one in my collection, and it's there on merit. Things have probably changed, Dave. You rely too much on old memories, matey.

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
05-09-2009, 13:31
While these lot bicker away ;) I thought I'd put my word in! It does seem to make sence that if £500 is the budget the 401 option is the sencible one! If you think that I did quite well at £125 to get a 1210 with 6 months (now very void) warantee and davek did exceptionaly well at £75 for his. Say you manage to get one for £100? Then spend £300 on timestep - that leaves you £100 for cart mat headshell weight and support - the 5 other things that I have done to get me as exited as I am!
How about this for a deal? You do up your 401 then in may when I'm going to America for 2-3 weeks you can borrow my 1210! I'm sure if you are clever about bits you put on the 401 you could at that stage if you did like the 1210 buy one and put them on it! Other may have comment on thatast statement!

Alex_UK
05-09-2009, 13:56
Firstly, improve the mounting arrangements of the RPM4 and get it out of room corners if possible. get the best out of this and THEN look to upgrade!

That's a very good point - I should probably try and play a bit more vinyl in any case, but I've become a bit digital obsessed since the Caiman arrived!


although I don't know what Ortofon is fitted to the Pro-ject..

The 510 mkII that came with it - presume a pretty basic cart


The Rotal phono stage is very competent

That's very polite! ;) It does the job, but would be "outed" if I move the Garrard in, and yes, the Phono board is an option for my Creek amp.


The Garrard you own - FETTLE IT!!! I'd also look at plinth options, even if you don't ditch the one it's in.

I think we have a consensus here - the only name I know for servicing/refurbing Garrards is Loricraft - but looking at their site, not sure they have the time, concentrating at the moment on rebuilding them for sale. Any suggestions who to use?

Also, any pointers for a slate plinth? Although I actually quite fancy the idea of granite - is that a viable option (sorry if that is a stupid suggestion!) hmmmm.... so many options, I'm not even going to look at cartridge options yet.

Alex_UK
05-09-2009, 14:17
fit a high quality detachable headshell (such as the now widely-available Sumiko) to a detachable headshell 3009, and the rules change!

That's very fortunate, 'cos I cant find the SME headshell! I changed it 20 odd years ago to a "silver one" (Goldring?) and have misplaced the original, (which also includes the Shure V15 it originally came with :()

Thanks again, plenty of food for thought and research to be done - gotta love all that!

Dave Cawley
05-09-2009, 14:26
There really is only one answer:

Do both

Regards

Dave

Alex_UK
05-09-2009, 14:26
Cheers Hamish for that very generous offer - let's see how you feel nearer the time! :cool:

I think I am happy that I will do the Garrard anyway, as you suggest, not that I would want to sell it, but it will always be a good investment, especially once sorted and properly plinthed - In the meantime, I'm going to keep an eye out for a cheap Techie anyway - who says I can't have 3 turntables?? (oh yeah, the Missus will! ;) ) DaveK did VERY well, didn't he...

Alex_UK
05-09-2009, 14:28
There really is only one answer:
Do both


How about that for the spookiest simultaneous post ever! Thanks Dave!

The Vinyl Adventure
05-09-2009, 14:31
If you come to fetch it and drop it back again when I'm back, it makes no odds to me if you use it while I'm abroard... I'd honestly be more than happy with that arangement!

DSJR
05-09-2009, 14:58
Couple more lines or so..

Marco, I'd LOVE to be in the position of severely updating my memories, but finances and the state of the industry career wise prevent this from happening much, apart from the sporadic email chats with Alastair (Signals Ipswich), regular lengthy discussions with HiFi dave and posting mostly now on here.

I've found what looks to be a good 681EEE stylus and have a couple of places to look for a body to put it in and promise to give it another go when I can find it. I should add that any cartridge with a good but drooping treble reacts badly with the Spendors and especially with my ears, which need all the top they can get, particularly at the low volumes I play music at these days.......

Marco, you should know by now that I DO try to retain an open mind...

Alex, the 520 upwards cartridges (530/540) are much more refined, track better and still retain the neutral but sweet tone of their ancestors. I doubt the new models are significantly better, as I understand the innards to be much the same. The bodies may be more solid though, but this won't have a huge effect on the mm designs I reckon.

Yep, a Sumiko headshell on the SME is a great idea AND heavier counterweights are readily available to load the bearings better while retaining lowish inertia and I'd repeat the Audio Origami re-wire and foam-fill suggestion. The SME "Improved" bearing housings were slightly different I think (they certainly felt different to handle I seem to remember) and excess slop in the ball races can usually be easily minimised, if not removed altogether. I have been promised a TD160 Super/SME in need of a re-wire but as yet, it has yet to materialise. At least parts are readily available new from SME and used on eBay for these, but check the new cost before buying used bits as some parts are ridiculous in cost on that auction site....

twelvebears
05-09-2009, 15:41
Alex.

For your plinth, I suggest John at Slate Age as being your best cost option:

http://www.slateage.com/stone-products/hi-fi-furniture/


I have today picked up my new twin 40mm slate plinth from John at Slateage.

http://www.slateage.com/

It is a work of art and a testament to John and his teams skills and should sound fantastic when set up.

Unfortunately the builders landed this morning to fit new windows in my house and I cant get to set it all up for at least a week.

John took a few photos when I picked it up and hopefully will post them in the next few days.

I would recomend John to anyone wanting anything in slate(hi-fi or otherwise) he is a real gent and genuinely interested in anything hi fi and charges real world prices which in my case was substantionally less than the "slatedeck" price.

Thanks John


Clive Smith

And you can always contact Clive to ask any questions you may have, but I know you still have a decent chunk of change from £500...

Alex_UK
05-09-2009, 17:35
Thanks again for the updates Dave DSJR, Hamish & Steve - you lot really are all great!

Mike
05-09-2009, 18:47
Keeping a 'classic' going is always going to be a laudable thing to do. ;)

Go for the 401 option and put it in a plinth with plenty of room. A twelve incher could always be grafted on at a later date if/when funds permit!

Or you could sell it to me for 'sensible' money and I'll do it? :):):)

:mex:

Marco
05-09-2009, 18:56
Go for the 401 option and put it in a plinth with plenty of room. A twelve incher could always be grafted on at a later date if/when funds permit!


Exactly (as I mentioned earlier to Alex), and by all accounts John of Slate Age is yer plinth man! :)

It's worth pointing out though that a fully 'sorted' 401 will sound very different to the equivalent SL-1210 or SP10. Alex should also be aware of that at this stage.

Marco.

Mike
05-09-2009, 19:43
It's worth pointing out though that a fully 'sorted' 401 will sound very different to the equivalent SL-1210 or SP10. Alex should also be aware of that at this stage.

Very true. It will sound rubbish in comparison... which is precisely why he should sell it to me for the very 'sensible' price of one hundred English pounds! And a lifetime supply of my 'magic' digi cables! :)

Marco
05-09-2009, 20:21
<Snigger>... I am making a serious point, though.

Marco.

Mike
05-09-2009, 20:30
<Snigger>... I am making a serious point, though.

Marco.

But nobody cares.. you're too full of .... :lol:

Marco
05-09-2009, 20:34
...Pointing out the benefts of different sonic presentations? Or what else did you have in mind? :eyebrows:

:ner:

Marco.

Mike
05-09-2009, 20:42
:D .... yeah, one 'o them. Or summat! :lolsign:

Peter Stockwell
06-09-2009, 06:59
I sold my Bastin plinthed, Slatedeck bearing mod 401 in favour of the SL1200 option.

My feeling is that the 401 is great grab your attention TT, but I think it can be too 'in yer face", The modified Tecnics is more neutral, some might say boring.

Alex_UK
06-09-2009, 07:09
Thanks Peter for the opposing view. I think whatever I do is reasonably "safe" - I can probably get a fair chunk of my investment back in the 401 if I don't lke it. What arm/cartridge where you running?

Peter Stockwell
06-09-2009, 07:27
Spacearm/Grado gold, I'd had the 401 10 years or more. So I was ready for a change, too.

Alex_UK
06-09-2009, 07:31
Thanks Peter - I'm trawling the archives on here so sure I would come across something eventually, but now I know!

Tweedle-Dee
06-09-2009, 20:08
I've been reading this discussion with great interest - thanks to all for this. I've been faced with a bit of a dilema - I advertised my Marantz CD16 elsewhere (didn't want to do this here as I've only just joined and didn't sign up to shift gear) and have not managed to sell it, but have been offered a 401, professionally made plinth in cherrywood and SME 3009 as a straight swap.

I'm really interested in pursing this, but have never heard this set up. The current owner has not really used it much and mentioned that he had the wrong cartridge fitted - a Sumik Blue Point and that it sometimes does not track well and jumps - he feels it needs set up and a cartridge replacement (suggestions welcome).

May I ask how I could check if the motor unit and arm are in good condition and how the sound would compare to a LP12, Ittok II, Lingo (pre-Cirkus)?

Many thanks,
TD

DSJR
07-09-2009, 14:22
back in the day, the 301 and 401 in a decent plinth wasn't quite as good as a Spacedeck - a turntable all but ignored on here for some strange reason. Now that garrards are fetching ludicrous money, there's no contest IMO..

HOWEVER Alex, you have the 401/SME already, and getting a re-furb plus a better plinth is a no-brainer. The Techie will still be there in several years time you know and you may even be looking at an SP10 by then anyway (the Beeb replaced all their old Garrards, EMT's and Gates decks with these IIRC..

Alex_UK
07-09-2009, 16:04
Well, I really can't remember the last time I even plugged in the 401, so first things first, get it out of the garage, clean it up, set it up... Will it work?

Ohhhh yess!!!

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/Alex_Steel1969/hifi/IMG_1938a_1.jpg

As you can see, I didn't even dust it before firing it up! Despite not being setup properly, with a really cheap cartridge and no mat (borrowed from the pro-ject, along with the clamp, which doesn't do much except hide the album I was playing!) I can't believe how good this thing sounds! It's no wonder it took me until the mid '90s to start buying CDs... And then why did I not keep this little gem in my system? Absolutely massive soundstage, very bright and clear - the only downside is that it seemed to need quite a lot more volume than the Pro-ject (about 20% more to be at the same level) and there is a definite rumble - not that bad, but noticeable. How much of this is down to the very temporary placement (already moved upstairs :( ) I will no doubt find out in due course.

So, next stage is to find someone who can give it a good service, the 3009 is missing the pulley wheel on the counterbalance weight, then choose a cartridge and headshell - It will probably need a repaint, though I'd prefer to not if possible (definitely needs a new switch plate - some numpty spray painted it black...:doh:)

then... let's rock! (well, slate actually!)

Marco
07-09-2009, 16:21
Nice one, Alex. The old girl looks none too shabby! :smoking:

What I suggest you do, regarding servicing advice, is join pfm (if you haven't done so already), pop a thread on the classic section, and address it to Tony Lonorgan:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=20

Tony's a big Garrard fan and I understand that he renovated his 301 himself from scratch - plus there is a big Garrard contingent on pfm, more so than here, and you'll get loads of excellent advice there :)

Just don't abandon yer mates here at 'home'! ;)

Marco.

Alex_UK
07-09-2009, 16:35
Nice one, Alex. The old girl looks none too shabby! :smoking:

What I suggest you do, regarding servicing advice, is join pfm (if you haven't done so already), pop a thread on the classic section, and address it to Tony Lonorgan:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=20

Tony's a big Garrard fan and I understand that he renovated his 301 himself from scratch - plus there is a big Garrard contingent on pfm, more so than here, and you'll get loads of excellent advice there :)


Thanks Marco - no, not joined - I haven't felt the need to go anywhere else since I came here (we need a "group hug" smiley!) - but that sounds like a good suggestion



Just don't abandon yer mates here at 'home'! ;)


Never! :grouphug: ;) :cool:

The Vinyl Adventure
07-09-2009, 16:55
its actually not that bad over there, as long as you dont ask peoples views on naim compared to avondale... aparently that causes some friction!

Marco
07-09-2009, 16:59
Nope, in general it's a good forum - the only one I look at apart from here :)

Marco.

John
07-09-2009, 17:22
back in the day, the 301 and 401 in a decent plinth wasn't quite as good as a Spacedeck - a turntable all but ignored on here for some strange reason. Now that garrards are fetching ludicrous money, there's no contest IMO..


Dave have you heard a 401 on a slate deck you may be suprised what it is capable of The spacedeck is a lovelly deck for the money but the few 401 I heard (all on slate) have been in a different league The slate really helps with the rumble issues which for me is the major issue of the 401

Clive
07-09-2009, 18:23
back in the day, the 301 and 401 in a decent plinth wasn't quite as good as a Spacedeck - a turntable all but ignored on here for some strange reason. Now that garrards are fetching ludicrous money, there's no contest IMO..
My immediate reaction is that "back in the day" Garrards were almost never in a decent plinth. This is only happening now which is why their potential is only now becoming clear.

Marco
07-09-2009, 18:48
I agree. Can't say I heard much 'rumble' coming from yours when I was round!

Marco.

Alex_UK
07-09-2009, 18:55
That's exactly my feeling - it needs MASS!

John
07-09-2009, 19:06
Alex when U can afford put the 401 on a slate get one at least 30mm thick and u have the basis for something very special
Should u wish to invest further it will reward u even more

DSJR
07-09-2009, 19:25
There are also people who make the trim inserts around the control knobs..

Almost all unadjusted 301's and 401's rumble, especially a harmonic of the motor (vibration), but a darned good clean, service and general overhaul by them that know (Loricraft) and you'll be stunned with how good it can really be.

Tony L at PFM will agree with me on this (and so will Mick Parry - eek!), but Loricraft know more about this deck than anyone else, including some so called "experts" who beggar around with bearing upgrades, replacing "sintered" steel bushings with brass ones etc.etc. If ANYONE is to look at your deck in the future, get it to Loricraft!!!!!

Your SME is right bodged up at the mo, but new instruction packs can be got on eBay. I'd also one day invest in an S2 headshell even if you don't ever use it - it just makes the arm complete. The Bias settings on "Improved" SME 3009's were set a bit high, so when you get a suitable cartridge in it (the AT95E is good, but not *that* good), set it to i/4 gramme less than the playing weight.

DSJR
07-09-2009, 19:34
My immediate reaction is that "back in the day" Garrards were almost never in a decent plinth. This is only happening now which is why their potential is only now becoming clear.

"The Day" that I was referring to was late eighties/early nineties when Martin Bastin began making his superb Garrard plinths which all but killed the rumble. Fettled Garrards were affordable fifteen years or so ago, but recent hikes in used prices and the hikes in new plinth costs make a "fresh" 401 purchase a bit too expensive I think, when a tweaked SL1200 and Spacedeck now cost around the same. Alex is in a different situation - he already has his deck...

I know what you're talking about regarding the godawful plinths when the deck was being made, but a very few 401's were well behaved, even in these chipboard "shells." The 401 was still in production in 1974 - just ;)

Clive
07-09-2009, 19:48
OK, we're talking about different days! :)

Marco
07-09-2009, 19:50
To summarise: get it serviced, put it in a nice slate plinth, and it'll be the dog's danglies :cool:

Marco.

Alex_UK
07-09-2009, 19:50
Thanks guys, Loricraft is who I've had in mind for a few years, so the obvious place to start, and as the "old girl" has waited this long, she only deserves the best!

Dave, you are absolutely right about it being "bodged up" - I know bugger all about setting up turntables, the cart/headshell was "stuffed in" 20+ years ago when all I knew about was those cheap Japanese Direct Drive turntables I was playing with in the clubs (Joke!) - but if it can sound as good as it does in such a bad state, then I reckon I'm in for a great journey! Right, off to loricraft's website!

John
07-09-2009, 19:55
Dave have you heard one on a slate
I agree loricraft know there stuff around these decks but they also really charge for that knowledge but in total agreement they are the right people to go too for sorting out issues or repairing
I have not heard a 401 Martin Bastin plinth so cannot comment
I heard one of Peters on Slate very nice and also Vic's of Trans fi with the Terminator which was pretty awesome

DSJR
07-09-2009, 20:37
John, I'd LOVE to hear a 401 in a slate or marble plinth - I understand that marble can be better under certain circumstances, but cannot vouch for this being true with the 401..

Loricraft for mechanical advice I think.

I technically own a 401 if only I could locate it. It was a mint one as well....

Alex_UK
08-09-2009, 21:11
I agree loricraft know there stuff around these decks but they also really charge for that knowledge but in total agreement they are the right people to go too for sorting out issues or repairing

Gulp - not cheap - a major Loricraft service (which it probably needs) is typical cost from £395 - obviously a lot more if it needs anything "serious!" (that's more than the major service for my car, and that cost over 30 grand!!!) Will post on PFM because I'm not sure I can justify that sort of money... the other issue is that Loricraft don't advocate the use of slate - not sure what they know that others don't - or maybe just because their own plinth comes in wood...

I haven't even looked at arms/carts yet, gonna have to be careful my enthusiasm doesn't get the better of me with this project!

Marco
08-09-2009, 21:40
Hi Alex,

Don't be discouraged, mate. Definitely post on pfm and address your query to Tony L. He'll give you loads of good advice on the subject, especially with regard to servicing.

However, I promise you that whatever you spend on the 401 in terms of a plinth and getting it 'up to spec' will be rewarded ten fold!

It's a fantastic deck when suitably 'fettled', especially with a 12" arm and quality MC on it (later on down the line), in which case it'll be a genuinely world-class turntable...

Enjoy the journey - I guarantee you'll have fun! :)

Marco.

DSJR
08-09-2009, 21:47
Alex. If you own or use a car worth £30K then £400 on a turntable thirty four years old at the NEWEST is worth every penny!!!!!! A pair of tyres for your motor - consumables - would certainly be around that price wouldn't they?

Your car will be worth probably less than half its value at a couple of years old. The Garrard, fully serviced, will hold its value...


FFS, some of you guys need to live on the incomes some of our bureau clients have been reduced to, often through no fault of their own - makes you weep..........:(

Enjoy what you all have while you can afford to enjoy it..

Alex_UK
08-09-2009, 21:53
Cheers Marco, not discouraged, just (as they say in America) "doing the math" (damn that expression annoys me!;) )

The fact I can do it in stages makes it more fun, and will keep the improvements coming - and the investment will be worth it long term. as I will never need another turntable if I get it right. Just been checking out the Jelco SA-750TE 12" on Dave Crawley's soundhifi site which could be a very competitive 12" option - assuming it would work with a 401 suitably plinthed.

Alex_UK
08-09-2009, 21:59
Dave - Just to clarify, I didn't pay that much for the car, but that is what it cost new (I bought it 9 months old at the height of the credit crunch and saved a fortune - it is actually effectively a "company car" as I get a car allowance.) I am acutely aware though of the "there but for the grace of god" factor - my Mrs was made redundant just as she was due to return from maternity leave, and whilst she is "working" again now, she has taken a self-employed role and yet to earn a penny in over a month - so I'm the main bread winner, and any spending has to be justified, especially if I am breakimg into the "contingency fund" - you're right though, in that the money is well invested IF I was to resell the deck, which for sentimental reasons I would never willingly do.

DSJR
08-09-2009, 22:00
Oh yes indeedy :gig:

Reply regarding the 12" Jelco, not the employment post above...

Marco
08-09-2009, 22:08
Alex,


Just been checking out the Jelco SA-750TE 12" on Dave Crawley's soundhifi site which could be a very competitive 12" option - assuming it would work with a 401 suitably plinthed.


Oh it'll work very nicely indeed and that's the one you should go for when the time is right :)

Dave (DSJR) makes some valid points, so consider those. Also consider that even if you spent, say, £2k or so on a new plinth, arm, cartridge and service, that it would be money well spent, because that done, your 401 would compete with any commercial 'hi-end' T/T on the market - yes that good!

Marco.

Will
08-09-2009, 23:40
Here you are slate plinth cost £320 go to a local fireplace- kitchen stone cutter. Loura Craft talk crap slate is the very best for 401-301.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j317/willcowen/100_0431.jpg

John
09-09-2009, 06:58
Alex everthing Marco and siad is correct The 401 will reward you it is capable of going with soome very serious TT and its up to you how hard you want to push the boat out
Yes Loricraft will try everything to move u away from slates but slates work really well

Marco
09-09-2009, 07:28
I've listened to Will's deck, and it's one of the best 401s I've heard (up there with Clive's) - his 'home-made' 12" arm is particularly impressive!

Will, are you coming to Owston? If so, bring yer deck :cool:

Marco.

John
09-09-2009, 07:59
Also Alex consider the Terminator when it comes to style its not to everyone taste but in terms of fuction its a great arm and has out performed some very expensive arms

Alex_UK
09-09-2009, 09:58
Cheers again guys - looking very nice there will...

My point really about the servicing costs was about relativity - but I now realise it was a stupid point to make, because a car service is basically change the oil, kick the tyres give it a wash - a loricraft service is going to be more akin to a complete rebuild - they take the thing apart to every nut and bolt apparently, then clean and rebuild, fixing and lubricating where needed. It would obviously cost a lot more than £400 to do that to a car!

hi-fi world (http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/featureshtml/garrard401sndqual.html) have reviewed one (with an SME 312, Martin Bastin plinth) - so I can see what the fuss is about! They also measured the performance - the closing sentence says it all really "These measurements show that the Garrard 401, fitted with Martin Bastin's revised bearing and fitted in his heavyweight plinth, possesses a superb measured performance, comparable to the best turntables ever built"

Will
09-09-2009, 10:53
Will, are you coming to Owston? If so, bring yer deck

Hope so I have a car with a boot and OB's + deck + 7 amps/power supplies and the Mrs thinks she can get a lift and the Hotels fully booked:(

DSJR
09-09-2009, 16:19
I had first hand experience of a 301 for which Martin Bastin did the plinth and bearing mod. the plinth was a revelation, its layered marine-ply (with each layer jigged out differently) all but eliminating any mechanical "nasties" in terms of vibration and feedback and bring the sound quality well to the fore - this was long before the costs went through the roof, but there you are.

I'm not so sure about the bearing mod though. The bearing runs so freely that the 301 increased its speed badly, meaning the motor pulley had to be wet-n-dried down to a revised diameter to bring the speeds back to spec within the fine adjustments. The 401 does have a separate adjustment for this (to get the fine-speed control as central at the right speed as possible) but proceed with caution (get Loricrafts opinion first..).

Marco
09-09-2009, 16:47
Hi Alex,

You're spot on about the servicing thing - it's just a matter of rationalising it in your head :)

In your position, I'd be tempted to 'bite the bullet' and get Loricraft to do the job. When you factor everything in the cost is actually not bad, and what price is the piece of mind of *knowing* that your deck is 'sorted'? ;)

Then it's just a matter of sorting out a plinth (and in doing so planning for the future addition of a 12" arm). I'd be tempted to use John at Slate Age for that. He's a professional and his prices are very fair, IMO - certainly compared to Slatedeck!

After that lot's done, I'd fit a decent MM cartridge to your 3009 (one of the Nagaokas I linked to earlier), with a Sumiko headshell, and then just kick back and enjoy the music until such times as you feel like raiding the piggy bank again for a better tonearm and MC cartridge.

That's what I'd be doing in your position, matey! :cool:

Marco.

John
09-09-2009, 17:02
Sounds like a good plan:cool:

DSJR
09-09-2009, 17:25
Marco, slightly off topic, but how would you say an MP15 compares to the MP150? I ask because i've discovered a NOS MP15 in my archives..........

Marco
09-09-2009, 18:33
Hi Dave,

I've not compared both, so it's a difficult one to judge, and as I don't surmise on things I haven't heard, it'd be unfair to comment.

However, as an educated guess I'd say that the MP150 is likely to exhibit certain sonic traits of the MP15 (chances are it'll share some of its genes or has been 'voiced' similarly), but the modern version will likely be more detailed and refined, perhaps slightly more forward sounding, such is the way with cartridges in general these days.

What I like about the current Nagaokas (and past classics) is their 'solid' and musical sound, the foundation of which is grounded on an articulate, extended, and tuneful bass. The mid and top end are nicely detailed and communicative but never over-emphasised or 'in yer face' in the way of many modern cartridges. Consequently, there is no listener fatigue and one can enjoy one's favourite music for hours, revelling in the Nagaoka's rich sound and highly insightful musical presentation.

I think that given their sonic prowess they're an absolute bargain, and are relatively undiscovered due to them being somewhat 'off the radar' of the magazines. The Ortofon and Goldring offerings, which are normally recommended, are brighter in tone (in a somewhat 'forced', unnatural way to my ears) and consequently are initially more 'impressive' sounding, slightly 'relentless', and IMO more 'hi-fi'-like in their presentation of music as a result.

As usual, much depends on your tastes and the sonic signature of your system as a whole, but undoubtedly the Nagaokas represent superb SPPV and as such deserve to be promoted here in the same way as the Denon DL-103/110/160 or AT33-PTG. They are veritable little 'giant-killers' in their own right! :smoking:

Marco.

Alex_UK
09-09-2009, 20:49
Hi Alex,

You're spot on about the servicing thing - it's just a matter of rationalising it in your head :)

In your position, I'd be tempted to 'bite the bullet' and get Loricraft to do the job. When you factor everything in, the cost is actually not bad, and what price is the piece of mind of *knowing* that your deck is 'sorted'? ;)

Then it's just a matter of sorting out a plinth (and in doing so planning for the future addition of a 12" arm). I'd be tempted to use John at Slate Age for that. He's a professional and his prices are very fair, IMO - certainly compared to Slatedeck!

After that lot's done, I'd fit a decent MM cartridge (one of the Nagaokas I linked to earlier) to your 3009, with a Sumiko headshell, and then just kick back and enjoy the music until such times as you feel like raiding the piggy bank again for a better tonearm and MC cartridge.

That's what I'd be doing in your position, matey! :cool:

Marco.

Can't disagree with any of that, although I am contemplating doing it slightly differently, in that I may get the headshell/Nagaoka first (how did you know I'd settled on a Nagaoka - you gave me 3 choices!? He's a witch - burn him! ;)) so that I have a hint at what can be achieved and a more revealing baseline to compare the servicing and plinth improvements, (not to mention mains and i/c) - whilst the 401 is being fettled, and the plinth built (which could be several weeks) I can shove the cart in the Pro-Ject, which should be an interesting experiment in itself. I need to give the plinth design a bit of thought, I'd like to do something a bit different (but not completely wacky!) - Guy (Pure Sound's) SP10 is very inspirational - I like the idea of allowing for more than one arm (a 12" being one of them, of course!) - the design of the main arm board looking very flexible for future upgrades. Bring it on!

Marco
09-09-2009, 23:18
LOL. Sounds like a good plan, Alex! Which Nagaoka have you settled on? :)

Marco.

Alex_UK
09-09-2009, 23:32
Probably a 150 to start with - hewn from a lump of finest green - if it's good enough for Percy... :lol:

Marco
09-09-2009, 23:42
Alex,

If you can stretch to the extra £45 for the 200, I'd do it, as it's got a boron cantilever (instead of aluminium alloy). This is liable to make a significant difference :)

Your call, though, of course!

Marco.

Alex_UK
09-09-2009, 23:46
Well in the grand scheme of things, I'm sure purple sounds better than green! Cheers matey, boron sounds good! ;)

Marco
09-09-2009, 23:54
S'what we're here for :)

It's just a matter of differentiating between the different models in the range. It doesn't always follow that the most expensive is best, though.

For example, the 500 uses a line contact stylus, as opposed to an elliptical. This will alter the sound quite dramatically, and not necessarily for the better to everyone's tastes...

There's usually a model in every range of cartridges which hits the 'sweet spot' and gives the best of 'all worlds' in the range. I reckon with Nagaoka it's the 200 :cool:

Marco.

Alex_UK
27-07-2010, 20:40
The Rotal phono stage is very competent, but hardly magic-making as the Croft is IMO. For £350 you could have a complete Croft preamp INCLUDING a phono stage - it would be worth an email to Glenn (or PM to HiFi dave) to find out exactly what the differences are between his baby preamp and the main £700 model. Can the Creek phono stages for sale on eBay be used with your amp? Apparently, someone here (I forget whom I'm afraid) designed it and can help with mods to enhance it further to SE standards...

I'm resurrecting my original thread, rather than starting a new one, as I move the journey along.

So, I now have the Nagaoka MP-15 courtesy of Dave DSJR, and I'm thinking of taking his advice regarding the phono stage. Updating the Creek makes the most sense, with one of the MM phono boards available. (I believe it was Alex Nikitin who was formerly at Creek who designed these? Or at least knows about them?)

The Details Are Here (http://www.creekaudio.com/products/evolution_phono.php)

It looks like there are two MM options the standard (c.£55) and SE (c.£90) however looking at the specs, it appears the difference is in the suitability of cartridges. The Standard says "Suitable for medium to high output MM cartridges in the range of 3.5 mV - 5 mV output" and the SE "Suitable for high output MC or low output MM cartridges in the range of 0.9mV -2 mV output" - given that the output of the MP-15 is 4.5mv then this means the standard one is the one I need? I would instinctively want to go for the SE if it is better/would work, but presume it wouldn't? Any advice gratefully received!

I've decided that I want to keep the SME 3009 S2 with the Garrard, as it is such a joy to use and so well engineered, and seems to work well. I've set it up properly, and am giving it a good clean and looking to replace one or two parts which are either damaged or missing. (I still might try the R200 at a later stage as an adaptor plate is only £18.)

I keep thinking about the plinth, and I really want to stick with wood, rather than slate as IMHO it looks much nicer. I'm going to go for layered ply, from Layers of Beauty (http://www.layers-of-beauty.co.uk/page8.php) - not sure exactly which style/veneer yet though. That will be my treat to myself when I reach my weight goal! I'm also tempted to give the servicing a go myself, as it doesn't seem too hard, but will probably not when it comes down to it! I've noticed that the rumble has quietened down remarkably since it has been playing non-stop the last few days, or maybe I've just got used to it - though in truth it is hardly noticeable once the tunes are playing anyway.

DSJR
27-07-2010, 21:29
Can your Creek take a phono board? I understand Alex N may be able to update and upgrade one if you ask him very nicely - I'm thinking FET's etc...

If the above can be done for not too much, it will leave more dosh for the plinth. I hope the layered plinth is done the way the Bastin ones are/were, with each layer jigged out differently so minimising the open box inside.

One very easy thing to do is to make sure the motor is freely suspended and not being dictated to by the wiring or linkages - it should be totally free on its springs, as much as possible.

Alex_UK
27-07-2010, 21:38
Can your Creek take a phono board?

According to what I read on the website, yes, should be fine, and the display even changes from "Aux" to "Disc" when you remove the jumpers and install the board, which is nice! ;)


I understand Alex N may be able to update and upgrade one if you ask him very nicely - I'm thinking FET's etc...

Hopefully Alex N will be able to let me know if he picks up on this thread else I'll drop him a PM sometime.



If the above can be done for not too much, it will leave more dosh for the plinth. I hope the layered plinth is done the way the Bastin ones are/were, with each layer jigged out differently so minimising the open box inside.

I think so from what I've read, but Russ Collinson can pretty much do whatever you want, it appears. There's quite a lot of hubbub about solid cherry being fantastic sonically, but the price premium is significant, though they do look lovely, and this could be a lifetime investment, so still a possibility (let's hope Mrs Alex likes the look of the Cherry one! ;))



One very easy thing to do is to make sure the motor is freely suspended and not being dictated to by the wiring or linkages - it should be totally free on its springs, as much as possible.

Thanks for that, noted!

Alex_UK
27-07-2010, 22:10
There's a pukka phono adaptor kit on fleabay for nigh on £200. I thought it was about £42 or thereabouts..

(From the Mark Grant G1000HD thread)

This is the one I'm thinking of if the official SME one is over the top price wise. I might see if Johnny at Audio Origami can add it on at the same time as a rewire/foam fill, to save my numptiness mucking it up! ;)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200495666302&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_562wt_1137

There's also this one:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-SME-3009-3012-PHONO-PLUG-ADAPTOR-NEW-/200500222886?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2eaebe9ba6#ht_535wt_1137

or, this one, Ithink the one DSJR is referring to, which is far too many pennies, but appears to be the "official" SME parts...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SME-3009-3012-TONE-ARM-LEAD-CONVERSION-KIT-COMPLETE-NEW-/140431149211?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20b259489b#ht_500wt_1154

But let's see what the direct from SME cost is first...

The Grand Wazoo
27-07-2010, 22:20
There's quite a lot of hubbub about solid cherry being fantastic sonically, but the price premium is significant, though they do look lovely, and this could be a lifetime investment, so still a possibility (let's hope Mrs Alex likes the look of the Cherry one! ;))


Alex, people get excited about Cherry because of how highly regarded it is by audio casualties in Japan. The thing is, Cherry is a tree that's revered in Japanese culture and, therefore, everything connected with it is desirable.

I don't believe that the reputation has anything to do with sound quality!

Alex_UK
27-07-2010, 22:34
Agreed, but I did read somewhere (I've become a bit obsessed since the 401 made it into the living room on Saturday) that it is also sonically an advantage, but then possibly just an owner trying to justify it?

Hang on - here's one - was on the Layers-of-Beauty site - "Here is a stunning plinth for the garrard 401, made from layers of solid cherry hardwood finished in a figured cherry veneer with a piano lacquer finish. The solid cherry has an amazing effect on sound quality and while working the plinth it had an interesting stone like quality to it. guide price- £540 + postage"

Must be true, I read it on the internet! (or was it a bloke said, down the pub?!)

The Grand Wazoo
27-07-2010, 22:43
Hang on - here's one - was on the Layers-of-Beauty site - "Here is a stunning plinth for the garrard 401, made from layers of solid cherry hardwood finished in a figured cherry veneer with a piano lacquer finish. The solid cherry has an amazing effect on sound quality and while working the plinth it had an interesting stone like quality to it. guide price- £540 + postage"


Hurrumph!
Cherry wood?
............Stone-like qualities?
Not a chance!
Is he by any chance trying to imply that it's a timber with slate or granite-like properties and therefore the ultimate audiophile material?

Alex_UK
27-07-2010, 22:57
Very probably! Or maybe he meant to write "whilst lacquering the plinth without a mask I noticed some stoned-like qualities"

Alex_UK
04-08-2010, 14:20
Well, having thought a bit more about it, I don't think I could justify the £540+ of solid cherry anyway, but I am still hoping to make contact with Russ to get a birch layered ply one made to the same size as my current one, and at the moment I intend to stick with the SME 3009 (the new bias guide is all installed and so everything is fully working and set up, just waiting for the Sumiko headshell to turn up.) I'll try Autosolling the weights when it comes, as per Andre's suggestion. (Couldn't find my tube of Autosol, bought a new one, then as law of sod dictates, found the old one...)

Anyway, main reason for this update is that before finally speccing-up the plinth, I need to decide on the wood to choose for the veneer. Of course, Google is your friend - there are some good sites out there and here are a couple for anyone looking to make a similar decision.

First up is veneer selector (http://www.veneerselector.com/veneers/index.asp) - which does exactly what it says on the tin - allows you to make selections based on overall colour, cost and pattern. Not worked out how to get prices from them (if indeed you can) but very helpful in looking for different woods and checking application etc.

Next is Vale Veneers (Wood Veneer UK) (http://www.woodveneeruk.co.uk/) which isn't quite so "whizzy" but does have different types of veneer products, and importantly, shows pricing. Might be handy if anyone needs edging etc, or a single piece - they even do iron-on stuff which looks interesting if you fancy doing some DIY.

If anyone else has some suggestions, any ideas gratefully received.

Now, I just need to decide on which wood - I had initially thought Macassar Ebony or Zebrano, but now I think they may be a bit too flash, and "me too" - I'm erring toward something a bit more mid-tone, understated and timeless - Macoré Plain (Cherry Mahogany) (http://www.veneerselector.com/veneers/view.asp?fromSearch=True&Veneer=SPA147), Sapele (http://www.veneerselector.com/veneers/view.asp?fromSearch=True&Veneer=SPA181) or Sequoia (http://www.veneerselector.com/veneers/view.asp?fromSearch=True&Veneer=SPA186) being my current faves - but that will probably change! Any other advice or suggestions from our "wood guys" gratefully received!

Stratmangler
04-08-2010, 14:26
I like the look of both quilted and flame maple.

The Grand Wazoo
04-08-2010, 19:09
I like the look of both quilted and flame maple.

Now that's a guitarist speaking!
My favoured timber would be Elm - with an oil finish


https://www.netescape-secure.co.uk/netescape/clientzones/wlwest/sitefiles/images/Elm_01.jpg

Alex_UK
05-08-2010, 13:41
Nice, but the issue I have is that we have dark Mango in the living room, so I think Elm would be too light.

My Sumiko headshell arrived today, duly installed the cartridge, realised something was missing from the accessories - the two 50p pieces I've had to stick on the back of the counterweight! I hadn't appreciated that the extra weight of the Sumiko is too much for an SME 3009 S2, so will now have to come up with a more permanent/elegant solution! Sounds better, though, than the crappy headshell I had in place of the "lost" SME original (lost = "in the garage... somewhere? :scratch:")

rahman
05-08-2010, 15:39
Hi

Best looking 401 set-up I've seen so far: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gortnipper/4129690975/

Cheers
Adrian

John
05-08-2010, 15:50
Have you seen this Adrian
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6796

rahman
05-08-2010, 16:01
No I hadn't. That's a stunner too! They both make we want a 401.....must... resist...temptation...

There's something about the recessed look with the 401, though, that really appeals to me. And i don't think it'd work as well with the 301.

Alex_UK
05-08-2010, 16:52
Hi

Best looking 401 set-up I've seen so far: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gortnipper/4129690975/

Cheers
Adrian

Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting that Adrian - I've never seen a 401 recessed before, and it looks absolutely gorgeous! It would also solve another problem that I have in that there are a few scratches on the sides of the 401's plinth, which I was just going to live with rather than have it resprayed, and that would solve that problem too, plus the arm will then mount flush with the plinth with no need for a spacer and the whole thing looks so much cleaner. I've also been thinking about having a veneer piece to replace the switch plate, and if this is flush it would look so much nicer and really like a factory option. I'm not going to have a proper full cover, just a Michell Uni-Cover style protector, and the cunning plan is all coming together quite nicely now! Thanks again. Lovely!

(Here's the link embedded to save people following it - a simple but beautiful design - mine won't be so wide though, I doubt, as no plans to go 12")

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2494/4129690975_529667e098.jpg

Techno Commander
05-08-2010, 17:29
That does look good. :)

Alex_UK
05-08-2010, 18:00
It's effin gorgeous is what it is! Chris TGW - if you read this, Mr Wood Expert - any idea what the wood is on this? Pretty much ideally what I would like too. :)

rahman
05-08-2010, 18:45
It's effin gorgeous is what it is! Chris TGW - if you read this, Mr Wood Expert - any idea what the wood is on this? Pretty much ideally what I would like too. :)

Hi Alex

Glad that you liked it. More details on the plinth here: http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=946610 . More pics here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gortnipper/

I think the wood is kauri.

Cheers
Adrian
ps: I'm currently getting some plinths done by Russ Collinson and, judging by the WIP photos of mine and the others he has done, he's a right magician with this stuff. Plus he's a top bloke too.

The Grand Wazoo
05-08-2010, 19:04
Kauri is a eucalytus kinda thing from big, big, big ancient trees. Not a euc as such, but the giant redwood of the Southern Hemisphere in terms of size & age. Now you can get it as plantation grown timber and reclaimed from other uses - the biggies are mostly protected.
..........but that looks a bit dark for kauri to me.

http://www.nwo.nl/images.nsf/pages/NWOP_6B9CA5/$file/Kauri.JPG

Alex_UK
05-08-2010, 19:55
Excellent - thanks both, top stuff. (Is that you Chris, with that mahussive great tree?)

The Grand Wazoo
05-08-2010, 20:03
No, I'm much uglier than that! That's just some piccie I found on the w's

Alex_UK
05-08-2010, 20:29
No, I'm much uglier than that!

I thought you would be! ;)

He does mention Kauri in the PFM thread so guess that is what it is. Looks like solid not a veneer, though, so probably not an option if I want the damping of ply. (Got to be some function as well as form!)

DSJR
05-08-2010, 21:07
HiFi Dave had a lovely varnished Bastin plinth with a 401 in it. Not flash looking and the squat dimensions made the plinth look chunky (it has to be tall), but I thought the finish looked great in a practical kind of way and the horizontal "stripes" of the ply set it off nicely. Shame he sold the bloody thing before the big move, 'cos the deck was totally pristine.....

The Grand Wazoo
05-08-2010, 21:25
I thought you would be!
Ha!

darkstar078
05-08-2010, 23:25
Alex, here's another suggestion:
www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=1422.0

This Big Kahuna Lenco with bamboo plinth is quite different in looks but I like it.
Wood is just so much nicer than slate I think.

Alex_UK
05-08-2010, 23:33
Thanks for that Sacha - very interesting.

The Grand Wazoo
06-08-2010, 06:30
How about this for a plan - nip down your local real wood flooring shop. Choose a timber that's to your taste. Buy one pack. (£30?) Build your own plinth by building it up from sections of boards. This way you get laminations, if that's what you want, & you can finish the edges by framing it with more of the same.

Alex_UK
06-08-2010, 07:10
That's a very interesting idea, Chris, but I'm not sure I would be competent enough or have the necessary tools... But I'm wondering if my Father-In-Law might be up for it as he's made some nice furniture in the past...

Alex_UK
13-08-2010, 23:01
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200495666302&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_562wt_1137

The side-exit kit has turned up from the US, and all looks straightforward. Couple of questions for you wonderful people. I need to de-solder and re-solder the wires from the tonearm, which are obviously quite fragile/small. The instructions recommend a "low wattage" soldering iron to avoid damage - does anyone have a suggestion as to what "low" is? (I bought a soldering iron last year, but knowing what I'm like I think I went for the highest wattage I could find :rolleyes: (yes, all the girls do keep wiggling their little fingers at me - is it a come-on?))

Also, "pre-tinning" sounds like I put solder on the leads before soldering to the connectors on the RCA's - is it that simple? (I've not soldered anything in at least 20 years... and even then, not very much.)

DSJR
14-08-2010, 09:40
You people shouldn't be let anywhere near classic equipment, the rough soldering skills I've seen - and I wouldn't regard mine as being that special...

Soldering fine tonearm leads is an acquired art if you're ham-fisted like me and even I will have to think twice before tackling the SME that's waiting for me "inland."

Have a look in Maplin Alex. I bought a variable temperature soldering station from them (a cheapy on offer and still available - http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=35016 ). It's not on offer right now, but mine has been well thrashed recently and there's enough there for speaker leads on the one hand or fine circuit board/tonearm wire work on the other. I bought some spare tips of different sizes too and the tiny pencil-point one has come in very handy. the screwdriver bit is what I'm most used to from times past ;)

Also, try to get some heat-sink tweezers which will help no end.

By the way, the wires carefully removed from the old SME socket will be pre-tinned..

White - L+
Blue - L-
Red -R+
Green -R-
Black -Tonearm earth - run a wire from this to the phno stage/amp earth terminal.

Alex_UK
14-08-2010, 10:58
Cheers Dave. Might be back to plan A then - Audio Origami rewire and get Johnny to fit the new plugs at the same time! Still want to do a project that involves some soldering though, to get the practice, so may get the iron anyway.

DSJR
14-08-2010, 12:34
Get the iron, and some wires and phono plugs from maplin while you're buying the iron. Use low melting point solder and preferably some with some silver in as I do (HiFi Collective may be able to help).

Do some simple things first. When we meet, hifi Dave and I can show you how we do it (HiFi Dave has wonderful experience engineering for BT in an earlier life and he can solder with his eyes shut :))

Stratmangler
14-08-2010, 12:46
Use low melting point solder and preferably some with some silver in as I do (HiFi Collective may be able to help).

Why with silver in it ?
Originally it'll will have been done with 60/40 tin/lead solder, and this does have a low melt point.
Something like this would do the job nicely http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0001P0GLC/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=103612307&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0001P0GLW&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=17RSZFWDFKZ8H8WD9D9P

DSJR
14-08-2010, 13:39
Why with silver in it ?
Originally it'll will have been done with 60/40 tin/lead solder, and this does have a low melt point.


For some reason I was told it sounded better and was easier to work with. I found it melted at a slightly lower temperature and was better for small signal leads in the early days.

The stuff I use is this - http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=0551665

p/n 551-665

Does it for me ;)

hifi_dave
14-08-2010, 13:45
Do some simple things first. When we meet, hifi Dave and I can show you how we do it (HiFi Dave has wonderful experience engineering for BT in an earlier life and he can solder with his eyes shut :))

But you should see the crap job I do with my eyes open....:stalks:

Stratmangler
14-08-2010, 13:55
For some reason I was told it sounded better and was easier to work with. I found it melted at a slightly lower temperature and was better for small signal leads in the early days.

The stuff I use is this - http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=0551665

p/n 551-665

Does it for me ;)

Thanks Dave

I notice that the solder doesn't comply to RS RoHS standards:eyebrows:
I'm surprised that they stock it for that reason alone.

colinB
14-08-2010, 14:00
Years ago i used to be a sparky on Her majestys Naval vessels and worked in the Radar/Radio rooms mainly in nuclear subs. The naval engineers would inspect every solder joint for frosting etc.and would reject anything if it was not tinned properly, if it had been moved while cooling or if there was any damage to the insulation. That has always made an impression on me
and if youre out of practice from soldering i would strongly advise you get Johnny to work his magic and leave well alone. Sorry to make such a strong point Alex but i have seen some very bad DIY soldering and if youre going to use nice cables and componentswith audio electronics why take a chance with poor solder joints.

Alex_UK
14-08-2010, 14:09
Get the iron, and some wires and phono plugs from maplin while you're buying the iron. Use low melting point solder and preferably some with some silver in as I do (HiFi Collective may be able to help).

Do some simple things first. When we meet, hifi Dave and I can show you how we do it (HiFi Dave has wonderful experience engineering for BT in an earlier life and he can solder with his eyes shut :))

Sounds fun - a soldering party!

Alex_UK
14-08-2010, 14:11
Years ago i used to be a sparky on Her majestys Naval vessels and worked in the Radar/Radio rooms mainly in nuclear subs. The naval engineers would inspect every solder joint for frosting etc.and would reject anything if it was not tinned properly, if it had been moved while cooling or if there was any damage to the insulation. That has always made an impression on me
and if youre out of practice from soldering i would strongly advise you get Johnny to work his magic and leave well alone. Sorry to make such a strong point Alex but i have seen some very bad DIY soldering and if youre going to use nice cables and componentswith audio electronics why take a chance with poor solder joints.

Yep, I think you're right!

Marco
14-08-2010, 14:15
Sounds fun - a soldering party!

Yesh, and we can always bring the rubber out later :eyebrows:

Marco.

Techno Commander
14-08-2010, 14:55
Thanks Dave

I notice that the solder doesn't comply to RS RoHS standards:eyebrows:
I'm surprised that they stock it for that reason alone.

We arent allowed to use unleaded solder at work. :)

Under ROHS regulations there are exemptions for for equipment considered "critical" for maintaining "safety of life" systems. Therefore most medical equipment and in our case avionics (navigation & comms) is therefore required to leaded solder. Which obviously says a lot about the reliability of unleaded.

I still maintain a healthy stock of silver loaded LMP solder for personal use, as I think unleaded is a pain to work with and I personally dont like it.

DSJR
14-08-2010, 22:32
Yesh, and we can always bring the rubber out later :eyebrows:

Marco.

The PLANAR 2 RUBBER MAT you mean?????????????????????? :eek:

Oh yes indeedy. Dave is so busy enjoying his music on Habeths and good old Tannoys he's leaving the tuner and turntable restoration jobs to me when I venture over - you know the ones.......:ner:

I dunno, Isis valve CD player, Crofty "R" series, Radfords, Accuphase amps (:rolleyes:), more Crofts, Quads, SL110's, PLANAR 2's :D Should be a fun day, but I'll be soldering and fussing away while everyone else has a party :( Seem to have been there before....

gortnipper
21-08-2010, 11:25
Hah! I was googling for a pic to send someone about a 401, and up popped my 401 here in this thread, and I had been here before trolling the Ecofan threads a while back so I thought I would pipe in.

First, ditch the 3009. I had one on the 301 and sold it - much better sound to be had out of other arms. Even a lowly bone-stock RB300.

The Kauri is actually a 55mm swamp-kauri slab. Out of a bog and carbon dated at 43,000 years old. Three layers of 15mm hardwood ply added underneath for dampening. Sounds damned fine to me.

More details of the build in the individual photos at http://www.flickr.com/photos/gortnipper/sets/72157605424244343/

And thanks for all the kind words about the deck - I really enjoy using it!

The Grand Wazoo
21-08-2010, 13:09
Aah, that would explain the odd colour. The fact that it's been in the anaerobic conditions of a bog for at least 42,000 years would make me think that it's rather dense too compared to cooking kauri.

Mr. Gort - you need to dodge the first post police by sticking something in the Welcome area - system details/musical taste/real name/rough location.
Welcome to the Art of Sound!!

Marco
21-08-2010, 13:22
Hi 'gortnipper',

Welcome to AOS! :)

Could you please pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community by supplying your first name, basic geographical location, system details and music tastes, as this is a requirement for all new members joining AOS.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
21-08-2010, 13:24
We have a Mr Gort who built the property that's now our house way back in 1897. turns out he's a very distant relative of my wife :)

Alex_UK
21-08-2010, 20:23
Thanks for popping in, Mr. Gort, and hope you don't mind all the love in the room for your 401 ;) and us pinching your pics (would have asked first if I could have - let us know if there is a problem and we can remove them.) I was thinking of putting an R200 on the deck, (and bought a second-hand Rega Planar 3 with one which is immaculate) but then had second thoughts... do you think that would be as good as an RB300, and better the 3009? There is some history with the 401/3009 in that I inherited it a long time ago, so there is an emotional attachment, but of course I can still keep the 3009 and not sell it.

Thanks again, congrats on a superb looking 401! :)

DSJR
21-08-2010, 21:09
Alex, I thought we'd gone over all this...

The SME 3009 was good for the cartridges available at the time, the un-improved Series 2 being good for many modern cartridges as long as you use a better headshell and possibly the FD200 damper with diluted fluid or baby oil. The "Improved" 3009 is only really suitable for high-compliance cartridges such as the Nagaoka, which I hope you're still enjoying ;)

Technically, the RB300 tonearm is one of the best low resonance tonearms ever made, with an inert arm-pipe (except for one resonance at around 1.2KHz), superb bearings and utter reliability. The rigid coupling of all the RB parts doesn't always make for easy compatibilty though, but to state categorically that the RB tonearms are rubbish is not fair IMO, as I've heard an RB300's singing on a Spacedeck, which seems to make them sing while keeping the control.

The R200 tonearm I'm using is a good example of the type, but on the Rega decks, there was a tendancy to acoustic feedback, but properly sited, this early version of the Rega Planar, could sound incredibly entertaining and involving a listen.

All the above - "in my experience of selling, seting them up, owning and using these arms on a wide variety of turntables and systems, both at home and at work."

Alex_UK
21-08-2010, 21:49
Alex, I thought we'd gone over all this...

Yeah, we sort of have, and the current 3009/Sumiko/Nagaoka is hitting the spot (not as good as CD, obviously, ;) but pretty enjoyable nonetheless!) I've also managed to pick up a 140g (Heavy) Counterweight off ebay today for £20, which should cope with the extra weight of the Sumiko headshell. The unexpected spin-off which I have mentioned before I think is the reduced rumble with the Sumiko, the extra mass lowering it, though the current box plinth is still ripe for improvement... :)

A Rega/SME adaptor is only about £20, so there's always the option of trying the R200 for peanuts, or buying a Rega RB300 (or RB300 based) arm at another time, though I'm happy sticking with the 3009, as it just looks and feels so right, and for the emotional attachment mentioned above. Origami rewire/foam fill for the 3009, together with phono output conversion and Mark Grant interconnect (and a good polish) is first plan of attack though, when I get the plinth sorted. Too many other financial priorities at the moment though!

gortnipper
22-08-2010, 01:20
Alex - emotional attachment is a double edged sword: cant live without it, and sometimes it is a bear to live with.

Personally, I would not have a vintage 3009/3012 on my Garrards again - there are simply too many better sounding options for the money available. I flogged my mint 3009 S1 arm and got very good money for it. But, there was little emotional attachment.

If you are keen on it, do upgrade the wiring, connectors, bearing, rubber couplings - after this long it probably needs the full deal to sound its best and keep up with a refurbed 401.

-g

PS - I will get round to doing the obligatory "this is me" post later today.

gortnipper
22-08-2010, 05:54
Hi 'gortnipper',

Welcome to AOS! :)

Could you please pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community by supplying your first name, basic geographical location, system details and music tastes, as this is a requirement for all new members joining AOS.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Done. (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7436)

Alex_UK
22-08-2010, 09:27
Thanks for the advice David (Gortnipper.) Food for thought, definitely.

Marco
22-08-2010, 09:48
Done. (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7436)

Cheers, David :)

Marco.

DSJR
22-08-2010, 11:33
Alex, use something flexible for the arm to phono stage connection. I'm sure the Mark Grant will be fine, but I'd prefer the van damme Pro-Patch mic cable (plus earthing lead)as used by Johnnie. It's perfect for tonearms as an interconnect to the amp and doesn't seem to have a "sound" at all, as changing the cartridges makes a FAR bigger difference.

Alex_UK
05-07-2011, 18:34
Well, I started this thread nearly 2 years ago, and no, I hadn't done much with the Garrard at all... :o Until this weekend. :)

Well firstly, I don't have any spare pennies at the moment, not even enough for the very reasonable charges from Dominic over at North West Analogue to service it for me... :( But having joined his Garrardmatters.com forum, I thought I ought to at least use the knackered old girl. You see, about a year ago in preparation for getting the work started on the Garrard, I acquired a Technics SL-150 with SL-1500 arm, and an ADC VLM MkII Cart with Herbies mat, from our good friend DSJR Dave - and that became the turntable in my main system. (So in a way, I did join the Techie club too!)

So anyway, aside from being very noisy (mechanically rumbly) it worked - sort of - but with the help of the web, I was hopeful I could at least oil it and clean it up a little.

First off I doubt the platter has ever been off it… took a few taps with a hammer HANDLE to get it off… So next, let’s get it out of the plinth, and get the arm off. I noticed that the SME connector is loose - there is barely a connection between the lead and the arm – it has obviously been like that a long while, as the pins have oxidised black… Sorting that out will hopefully make a big difference! Next issue I notice – all four of the nuts holding the deck in are loose! 2 are finger tight, one is undone about 3mm and the other is nearly completely off the stud! That can’t have been helping…

Apart from the mechanical rumble, one of the other problems was the speed selector which, well, didn’t… Took me a while to work it out, but basically a nut and bolt on the selector mechanism had worked loose, stopping the mechanism from being pushed up and down. Once I’d figured it out it took a bit of persuading to get it back together, but now all 3 speeds work and change with a satisfying clunk! Yay! All the mechanics have been cleaned up (not that bad, actually) and lubed, and everything is working 100% now. Speed on the strobe is dead centre in the adjustment knob, so that is one aspect I haven’t got to worry about!

Next up was the idler wheel. Oh dear, I thought… It looked like it had lots of indentations/flat-spots… Disassembled it, and on closer inspection, it is just gunk… A LOT of gunk, but a good wipe with some meths and it is good as new. Nice and supple, too, so no problems there. The inside of the platter was obviously gunked up too, so another load of meths and elbow grease, and clean as a whistle. It was a similar story with the drive pulley, which is now sparkling. Before removing the main bearing, I thought I’d check everything still worked so put back the idler wheel and the platter, and guess what – hardly any mechanical rumble at all! I can still hear it if I put my ear right up to the platter, but before I could hear it from the other side of the room! So the gunky idler/pulley/platter was making a hell of a racket, and now it is much much quieter. :)

And now to the main bearing… The felt pad/washer was bone dry, so that wasn’t a good sign, but as soon as I got it out of the TT and undid the screws at the bottom I could see oil, so good news – it hasn’t run dry. The paper gasket is fine, and I can’t see a mark on the spindle. The thrust pad looks in great condition too, a little mark, but hardly anything and should polish off. Result! A good clean, and put back together with some fresh oil, and back in the turntable.

The next decision was whether to tackle a full strip down of the motor. I decided not to, in the end - I'll leave that to the professional! With the idler disconnected it takes quite a while for the pulley to come to a halt, so I just added a few more drops of oil to the top, and then one drop on the idler bearing. Maybe not quite a full service, but a lot better than it was.

Long term plans are to replace the plinth, but that will have to wait for the moment. The old box plinth it came in was painted white (by me) years ago, but now showing signs of wear and tear - I did consider painting it lilac especially for Marco but in the end just gave it a spray of black. I gave the tonearm a damn good clean, and also decided to strip back the spacer plate to bare aluminium instead of the (anodised?) black finish. Put everything back together and set it all up, and time for a listen...

As I mentioned earlier, before the “service” I could hear the mechanical rumble from my listening position quite dramatically, but now, not a sausage. Before, the mechanical noise was quite intrusive when listening at low levels, but now, with no volume and the TT running, I wouldn’t be able to tell it was on. :)

It sounds so much better than it did before, and much more like a proper turntable! The bass on these is quite rightly legendary! Next plan is to "beef up" the current plinth with some mdf off-cuts to fill some of the voids in the hollow box, possibly adding some plaster of Paris or Plastirok or similar.

At this point, I'd like to thank DSJR Dave and hifi_dave for their advice and encouragement, and also to Dominic for supplying the oil and advice on how to apply it. Cheers chaps!

I also acquired a new switch panel a while back, so installed that as well, and I've been experimenting with mats, and currently running it with the Herbies mat upside down, with a clear frosted acrylic mat on top. Was the best combination I found to replace the standard mat which is somewhere in the garage.
Here's a reminder of what it looked like before I started: (Notice also that I had even less of an idea how to set up a turntable, tonearm and cartridge than I do now!)

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/Alex_Steel1969/hifi/IMG_1938a_1.jpg

And here's a picture of how it now looks, without a record on: It now looks like a negative of what it did before!

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/Alex_Steel1969/401_1.jpg?t=1309890773

Here's one of it "in action"

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/Alex_Steel1969/401_2.jpg

And the obligatory "arty shot at a jaunty angle" :)

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/Alex_Steel1969/401_3.jpg

I have to say, for the cost of the oil (£7.99) and a few hours of my time I am extremely pleased with the outcome and dead chuffed! Oh, and I haven't played a CD since Friday night!

I can't wait to move things along further. :)

hifi_dave
05-07-2011, 18:50
Nice one Alex.

You won't look back..:trust:

Jonboy
05-07-2011, 20:02
very nice Alex :thumbsup:

Barry
05-07-2011, 20:09
Nice one Alex, it looks great! :)

What cretin decided to 'paint' the switch facia of the 401 black?

Apropos the SME 4-pin arm/lead connector: the pins and earth connection are silver-plated. These will tarnish with time (silver sulphide is black). Gently clean them with either 'silver' Duraglit wadding, or use Goddard's "Silver Dip" solution. Strictly speaking all these methods remove some of the silver.

It you are interested in how to remove the tarnish without removing the silver, I can let you know.

Regards

Tim
05-07-2011, 20:16
See, I wish you guys wouldn't do this...... every-time I convince myself I don't need a TT, somebody comes along and makes me want one :doh:

Nice work Alex ;)

Alex_UK
05-07-2011, 20:33
Thanks Chaps! :)



What cretin decided to 'paint' the switch facia of the 401 black?

That'd be Alex the Cretin, then! :D

In my defence, when I acquired the 401 I was 17, and had no idea of it's heritage or of course that 25 years later it would be a well regarded piece of hifi... I thought the switch fascia looked old fashioned, so sprayed it black! :doh:


Apropos the SME 4-pin arm/lead connector: the pins and earth connection are silver-plated. These will tarnish with time (silver sulphide is black). Gently clean them with either 'silver' Duraglit wadding, or use Goddard's "Silver Dip" solution. Strictly speaking all these methods remove some of the silver.

It you are interested in how to remove the tarnish without removing the silver, I can let you know.

Oooh yes please Barry, (you little tease!) and I'm sure others would like to know too - maybe one for the "restoration" thread you did a while back? :)

Tim - I reckon you'll succumb one day!!! :eyebrows: :lol:

keiths
05-07-2011, 20:34
Great job Alex. One day I shall have a 401...

chris@panteg
05-07-2011, 21:04
Classic combination , looking good Alex .

WOStantonCS100
05-07-2011, 23:35
Glad to see you got that classic up and running, again!

Secretly, when Loricraft announced that "Garrard" was now "theirs", I was hoping the 501 would be more of a throw back to the 401 or 301. I'm such an old git. Eh, class is class. :)

Macca
06-07-2011, 07:55
marvelous - I am jealous - good cartridge too!

stewartwen
07-07-2011, 11:55
Alex tis good that you have the KING of turntables up and running. I have a lot of turntables including a much modified Tech. 1210. I have tried it side by side with my 401, same arm and cart on both t/ts! It was a Hadcock/ 242, this was easy to achieve as thet Hadcok arm tube is easily taken off.
The differences were quite striking. The 401 portrayed a much wider stereo image than the Techy. Bass definition with the 401 was much tighter with better speed and was much more real than the Techy. Midrange with the 401 was again much richer and the treble reproduction was judged much cleaner and more extended! Speed control on the, recently serviced, 401 was much more accurate! Thus giving lower noise floor.
Although the Techy is much easier to operate than the clunky switches on the 401.
My 401 sits in a stacked ply plinth as per Kondo! I have built loads of plinths for 401s over the years, and have tried slate and granite plinths. The latter two types of plinth, beecause of the nature of the stone definitely "rang" this makes it appear to affect the treble reproduction.

stewartwen
07-07-2011, 12:02
This, seemingly extra treble was in fact the motor vibration reaching the pick up arm and feedback was introduced into the system.
Unlike the recomendations for using a slate plinth I would be VERY CAUTIOUS about investing a huge amount of money in one! In fact I wouldnt use any stone or metal plinth for the 401. Dont forget that the 401 contains a motor that is shaking itself to bits all of the time. So I would recommend that you have the motor serviced and relubed.
These comments are as a result of years of research into plinth behaviour over many years, I have noticed the same with my Thorens TD 124 as well.
If you need ANY HELP at all please do not hesitae to get in touch.
Stewart

John
07-07-2011, 12:27
With the 1210 it all depends how far you gone with the various mods but both are great TT

MaksK
07-07-2011, 12:29
With the 1210 it all depends how far you gone with the various mods but both are great TT

Agree! The fully-blown moded techy with top arm/cart is hard to beat.

stewartwen
07-07-2011, 12:31
I do agree with the last two posters, but in the context of the original post my comments were intended to lay some of the MYTHS to rest.

Thing Fish
07-07-2011, 12:32
Superb Alex. One day I hope to own one of these beasts. Even more so now that I've seen how your's has turned out.

John
07-07-2011, 12:51
I be interested in hearing what 401 could do with the bearing upgrade the reports seem to very encouraging

stewartwen
07-07-2011, 13:36
The bearing mod, a ceramic ball on top of a metal thrust plate is a good upgarde but not as effective as having the motor serviced, lubed and cleaned out. I did this mod a few years ago, although I have not took the ball out and the new thrust plate to confirm that this mod is as good as I thought it was.
S

Dominic Harper
07-07-2011, 13:54
Talking of bearing mods, this is the ultimate bearing available at present, but other versions will follow. This does away with any kind of ball bearing, as they just reflect all enegy back through the bearing, platter and ultimately the stylus.
This is a prototype and has too many mounting holes.

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af30/hifimaster/jeremy%20bearing/DSC01812.jpg
http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af30/hifimaster/jeremy%20bearing/DSC01811.jpg

Alex_UK
07-07-2011, 14:16
This, seemingly extra treble was in fact the motor vibration reaching the pick up arm and feedback was introduced into the system.
Unlike the recomendations for using a slate plinth I would be VERY CAUTIOUS about investing a huge amount of money in one! In fact I wouldnt use any stone or metal plinth for the 401. Dont forget that the 401 contains a motor that is shaking itself to bits all of the time. So I would recommend that you have the motor serviced and relubed.
These comments are as a result of years of research into plinth behaviour over many years, I have noticed the same with my Thorens TD 124 as well.
If you need ANY HELP at all please do not hesitae to get in touch.
Stewart

Many thanks Stewart. :)

stewartwen
07-07-2011, 14:59
Very interesting bearing mod Dominic. I could be interested in one of these.........
S

DSJR
07-07-2011, 16:01
I've always been wary of ceramic-balls in stock 401 bearings, or balls in general. My understanding is that since the ball will be harder than the shaft, the flat bottom of the shaft will very soon gain an indent from the ball (I believe this has happened too).

Having a totally new one-piece bearing as above must be a good idea if the tip and plate are hard enough and polished well and since I haven't seen inside a "BBC" 301/401 bearing, I don't know if my argument for some built-in rolling-drag in the bearing would be a good idea, as Garrard incorporated in the original designs. The thing is, the 301 speed goes all to cock with a low-drag bearing and one that Martin Bastin modified needed to have wet-n-dry to shave the drive pulley down a touch, as the deck ran far too fast and the speed adjuster wasn't sufficient to adjust this out.

stewartwen
07-07-2011, 16:11
Hmmmmmmm I do check my main brg shaft every so often to see if it has berenelled, it hasnt after a few years. So I dont think this will happen.

Dominic Harper
07-07-2011, 16:19
There seems to be so many misconceptions regarding Garrard 301/401 decks.
The motors do not create that much vibration if serviced and aligned correctly.In fact they are incredibly smooth.
Any ball bearing within the main bearing is a bad idea. A ball bearing will just reflect back any energy it is presented with.
The new bearing lowers the noise floor to such an extent the master tape noise floor is very evident. Groove noise which can be clearly heard before the mod, is banished. I do not make these bearings personally, rather a good friend and colleague Jeremy. He also supplies some lubrication called Super Goo for use with his bearings, which is almost treacle like and improves the results with his bearing even further.

Alex_UK
12-07-2011, 20:35
Well I wasn't sure where to post this, but this is as good a place as any, as it highlights the latest change on my turntable.

You may have noticed that I snapped up a Nagaoka MP-30 cartridge from that very fine fellow Jerry, in what may be a forum record (from first advertised to paid for, in about 15 minutes!) It arrived this morning exactly as described and pretty much in “as new” condition. Here's Jerry's ad picture, as I've not yet had a chance to do my own:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/NagaokaMP-30.jpg

Dave R (DSJR) recommended that I use a lightweight headshell as these like low mass arms - I should have the original SME one somewhere - in the garage (loose term!) - so I made do with a spare (Ortofon?) one I had to hand and used to use on the 3009 arm until I got the Sumiko. So, duly installed and setup, which I'm getting reasonably confident at now (though is ANYONE relaxed when installing a cartridge...? one of the most stressful experiences known to man I reckon!) and I decided to track it at 1.5g, which is about the middle of the recommended range.

Now, bearing in mind I was replacing a Nagaoka MP-15 with the MP-30, I wasn't expecting a big difference. Although the 30 is only 2 rungs up the ladder, it is also the 2nd from top of the range, and has a "triangular" stylus, a boron cantilever, and the actual body is different too. However research suggests that as you go up the range, you get "more of the same" without losing the "house" sound. One other advantage is that the MP-30 is gold in colour instead of the horrible "turd beige" of the MP-15!

So, how does it sound? In a word - amazing! I've always loved the Nagaoka sound, and this is indeed more of the same. The bass is fuller but tighter, sibilance is reduced as is surface noise, and crackles and pops seem subdued too. The stereo image is slightly larger, and there seems to be much more separation between instruments, but the biggest difference though is treble - which is just so much sweeter. Where with the MP-15 cymbals fizz and high guitar notes shriek a little, with the MP-30 there is a really nice "ring" where it should and a smooth tone without any shrillness - much more relaxing and natural to listen to.

Unfortunately I've only had a couple of hours to listen before bedlam descended back in the house, so further listening and tweaking to be done, but so far, very very pleased with this cartridge! Martin (Macca) said in the For Sale thread "my favourite cart ever" - too early to tell for me, but it looks promising!

Coupled with the changes I've made to the Garrard, vinyl really has made a huge jump forward in my system. When I heard Marco's Techie with SPU at Scalford, and then hifi_dave's NAS with Decca I was thoroughly depressed at how vinyl sounded at home - but now, coupled with my speaker change I am getting just a little bit closer to those fantastic sounds.

All in all - a true bargain - and thanks again to Jerry for his box swapping tendencies which allowed me to pick this up - but don't expect to see this MP-30 back in Private Exhibitions any time soon!

jandl100
13-07-2011, 06:06
So, how does it sound? In a word - amazing! ..... All in all - a true bargain - and thanks again to Jerry for his box swapping tendencies which allowed me to pick this up

That's great! :)
Yep, it's a very fine cartridge - I enjoyed it a lot and it gave my rather nice MC cart a run for its money, it even displaced it in my affections for a while. In truth they are not really comparable, quite a different presentation - which made the decision to sell even harder, of course.

Thanks for the thanks, Alex. :thumbsup:

DSJR
13-07-2011, 16:25
I think I have a review for it and the ONLY negative I remember was the high compliance, which the oress at the time had a downer on.

Alex, if what you're using is pretty stable and not wobbling like a jelly on warped or ripply records, then leave as-is, as you'd never forgive me if you damaged the thing trying to transfer it over to yet another headshell..... :eek:

Alex_UK
13-07-2011, 19:33
Alex, if what you're using is pretty stable and not wobbling like a jelly on warped or ripply records, then leave as-is, as you'd never forgive me if you damaged the thing trying to transfer it over to yet another headshell..... :eek:

Good plan - but of course I'd forgive you Dave! :)

Yomanze
13-07-2011, 20:01
............but I'd personally be ditching the SME

Unless you were dealing with a Denon '103. :)

The Grand Wazoo
13-07-2011, 20:14
Unless you were dealing with a Denon '103. :)

Actually, no. I wouldn't let my choice of cartridge overrule my choice of arm. And I probably wouldn't ever be dealing with a Denon 103 (except to sell it too!)

DSJR
14-07-2011, 06:39
I know i joke with Marco about the 103, but it's only doubled in price since the mid eighties and was well liked then, despite the conical tip. ALL of its competition have seemingly quadrupled or more...

MartinT
14-07-2011, 08:04
See, I wish you guys wouldn't do this...... every-time I convince myself I don't need a TT, somebody comes along and makes me want one :doh:

Tim, you know you want one. It's just a matter of time... :)

Marco
14-07-2011, 08:40
Actually, no. I wouldn't let my choice of cartridge overrule my choice of arm. And I probably wouldn't ever be dealing with a Denon 103 (except to sell it too!)

Oi you - there's bugger all wrong with a 103, in the right set-up! ;)

Marco.

MartinT
14-07-2011, 08:55
though is ANYONE relaxed when installing a cartridge...? one of the most stressful experiences known to man I reckon!

Yep - I was breaking into a sweat recently mounting the Shelter. Thank goodness I have an arm which takes headshells as I couldn't bear the fixed arm types where you have to mount them in-situ.

MartinT
14-07-2011, 09:03
Actually, no. I wouldn't let my choice of cartridge overrule my choice of arm. And I probably wouldn't ever be dealing with a Denon 103 (except to sell it too!)

Agreed, Chris. My system hierarchy lesson tells me that the arm is MUCH more important.

Marco
14-07-2011, 09:07
Indeed - thank heavens for detachable headshells! :carrot:

Experience pays dividends, though (as I must have fitted literally hundreds of cartridges over the years, on all sorts of different tonearms), so over time one develops a confidence, as well as a systematic approach, in order to do the job right - as well as safely!

Having the right tools for the job, too, and working at a proper bench in good light conditions, helps enormously... It never ceases to amaze me the amount of people who own turntables, and who piss around with using inadequate tools, when fitting cartridges, or even the complete absence of the right ones, and then moan when they make an arse of it! :doh:

Marco.

MartinT
14-07-2011, 09:29
Yep - right tools, right light, proper work area. However, the issue with some cartridges is the totally inadequate stylus guard that wants to fall off while you are mid-screw tightening. Aaargh!

Barry
14-07-2011, 22:51
Yep - right tools, right light, proper work area. However, the issue with some cartridges is the totally inadequate stylus guard that wants to fall off while you are mid-screw tightening. Aaargh!

Or even no guard at all! How the hell are you supposed to fit these to fixed headshell arms? Especially as some of these have long, and highly vulnerable, cantilevers: such as the Sumiko Blue Point and the Benz's. :scratch:

As far as I am concerned the cartridge comes first, not the arm. Not vice versa.

Marco
15-07-2011, 09:06
As far as I am concerned the cartridge comes first, not the arm. Not vice versa.

Not sure what you mean there, Barry. Sonically, a tonearm will always have more influence on the audio quality produced by a turntable, than a cartridge (although of course one needs a cartridge first, of some description, to actually hear any music! ;))

Turntable hierarchy, for the main constituent components, has always been: motor unit/PSU > tonearm > cartridge (in that order) - and so it shall always remain.... :)

Marco.

jandl100
15-07-2011, 09:10
Turntable hierarchy, for the main constituent components, has always been: motor unit/PSU > tonearm > cartridge (in that order).

Marco.

Wow - wot? - gosh ... NO !! :nono:

I disagree with that completely! For me, the cartridge sets the basic musical scene, with the arm and tt as supporting (literally!) cast, and which hopefully allow the cart to do its musical job. ;)

I've always been a speaker-first audiophile, for the same basic reason. It's the mechanical transducer which is the limiting and dominating factor, imo. :)

Marco
15-07-2011, 09:19
We'll have to strongly agree to disagree then, Jerry, especially about speakers! ;)

Marco.

MartinT
15-07-2011, 09:23
Turntable hierarchy, for the main constituent components, has always been: motor unit/PSU > tonearm > cartridge (in that order) - and so it shall always remain.... :)

Yep - all my experiences agree with you. If you have a SUT I now have a new hierarchy:

motor unit > tonearm > SUT > cartridge

Anything else is just a great cartridge being completely wasted.

Marco
15-07-2011, 09:30
Indeed, Martin. I totally agree, and likewise, considerable experience confirms it! Let's use the example of the following T/Ts:

Technics SL-1200/RB300/Koetsu Red Signature vs. Technics SL-1200/SMEV/AT-OC9.

Which one would you rather listen to, or indeed expect to reproduce music to a higher standard?

If the test were carried out with both T/Ts in an otherwise identical system, I'd bet Jerry £1000 (with no fear whatsoever of losing my money) that the second Techy would win - and do so at a canter!! ;)

Marco.

jandl100
15-07-2011, 09:42
Well ... we all have different experiences and outlooks - and with regard to "speakers-first", I have put my money where my mouth is. And I have no regrets whatsoever! :)

jandl100
15-07-2011, 09:49
Indeed, Martin. I totally agree, and likewise, considerable experience confirms it! Let's use the example of the following T/Ts:

Technics SL-1200/RB300/Koetsu Red Signature vs Technics SL-1200/SMEV/AT-OC9.

Which one would you rather listen to, or indeed expect to reproduce music to a higher standard?

If the test were carried out with both T/Ts in an otherwise identical system, I'd bet Jerry £1000 (with no fear whatsoever of losing my money) that the second Techy would win - and do so at a canter!! ;)

Marco.

:hmm: I rather suspect it depends on what you are listening for. As a mainly classical fan the virtues of midrange/treble tonal neutrality and resolution come higher up the priorities than other things. So I would guess I am looking for a different balance of virtues than you are. :cool:

Would you go as far as the 'old school' flat earthers - and put a Linn K9 in a good arm/deck and expect it to outperform a 103 (say) in a standard Techie arm? I know I wouldn't. :)

MartinT
15-07-2011, 09:50
If the test were carried out with both T/Ts in an otherwise identical system, I'd bet Jerry £1000 (with no fear whatsoever of losing my money) that the second Techy would win - and do so at a canter!! ;)

I wouldn't be taking that bet ;)

MartinT
15-07-2011, 09:52
Would you go as far as the 'old school' flat earthers - and put a Linn K9 in a good arm/deck and expect it to outperform a 103 (say) in a standard Techie arm? I know I wouldn't. :)

I don't know the K9 but the principle sounds right and you would get a better musical message than the 103 in the Techie arm.

Marco
15-07-2011, 09:56
Well ... we all have different experiences and outlooks - and with regard to "speakers-first", I have put my money where my mouth is. And I have no regrets whatsoever!


Can't argue with that, dude - although I have a very different opinion on the matter :)

I'm not saying that loudspeaker quality isn't important, of course it is, but before I'd dream of spending megabucks on speakers, the set-up of my partnering electronics would have to be fully optimised first, and that would mean a dedicated mains supply, filters and/or mains regenerator, specialist equipment supports, and the right power and signal cables, etc - and that's BEFORE we even get to the boxes used! ;)

Anyway, one day I'll demonstrate the tonearm/cartridge thing to you (perhaps next year at Scalford?) - it shouldn't be hard to find two Techies with different arms and cartridges, but perhaps slightly less 'luxurious' than the earlier examples given :cool:

Marco.

Alex_UK
15-07-2011, 09:56
'scuse me for interrupting the scrap, but here's a piccie of the MP-30 in situ. :)

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/Alex_Steel1969/hifi/IMG_5588.jpg?t=1310723689

Right, you can carry on whacking each other with your arm wands and cantilevers now. ;)

jandl100
15-07-2011, 09:59
Right, you can carry on whacking each other with your arm wands and cantilevers now. ;)

Nah - I'm happy to agree to differ. :)

Nice looking white vinyl there, Alex!
Still enjoying the MP-30's tunes? ... of course, you should have stayed with the MP-15 and just upgraded your arm and tt! ;) :eyebrows:

Alex_UK
15-07-2011, 10:02
Still enjoying the MP-30 tunes? ...

Sure am, Jerry :)


... of course, you should have stayed with the MP-15 and just upgraded your arm and tt! ;) :eyebrows:

:lolsign:

Marco
15-07-2011, 10:18
:hmm: I rather suspect it depends on what you are listening for. As a mainly classical fan the virtues of midrange/treble tonal neutrality and resolution come higher up the priorities than other things. So I would guess I am looking for a different balance of virtues than you are.


Perhaps, but I would argue, and feel confident of being able to back it up with a demo, that the SL1200/SMEV/OC-9 would give you more of precisely what you're describing (your balance of virtues, as well as mine) than the Techy example, with the Koetsu, where most of the money has been spent on the cartridge.


Would you go as far as the 'old school' flat earthers - and put a Linn K9 in a good arm/deck and expect it to outperform a 103 (say) in a standard Techie arm? I know I wouldn't.

No. The K9 was an overpriced piece of pish; basically a re-badged Audio Technica. I hated how it sounded: bright, thin and in-yer-face. It was a bloody abomination!

However, to use Linn hierarchy, I'd rather have an LP12/Radikal/Ekos SE/Troika, than an LP12/Lingo/Ekos SE/Akiva :)

Marco.

jandl100
15-07-2011, 10:24
Welllll ... the OC-9 is a nice cart. I think you have to reach a certain level of quality with transducers (and a re-badged AT-95 ain't it!) before you can start taking other things too far.

Marco
15-07-2011, 10:29
Indeed. But I trust you can see the point I'm making, based on the particular examples I've given?

I'm afraid that things are rarely 'black & white' when assembling a musically rewarding hi-fi system, so quite often one has to put personal bias aside and apply some lateral thinking :)

Marco.

MartinT
15-07-2011, 10:36
Yes Jerry, I do agree that we have to have the basic system doing the right things before the hierarchy arguments can be fully realised. It sounds like the K9 was a dog, so perhaps that example was not the best.

Let me plunder from my own experience for a better example:

1) Modded Technics, Jelco SA-250ST arm, HM-7 SUT, Shelter 5000 cartridge

2) Modded Technics, Dynavector DV-507II arm, CineMag SUT, AT-33PTG cartridge

Which would I choose? No. 2.
While both the SUT and cartridge are inferior, the arm makes a HUGE difference to the way the whole deck plays music. In no way would I want to return to the Jelco now that I know what the DV can do. So for me, the hierarchy works.

Marco
15-07-2011, 10:52
Yup, I'd go with that, too! To use another example...

I'd rather have an SL-1200/SR5-21 PSU/DV-507II/AT-33PTG, than an SL-1200/Timestep PSU/Jelco SA-750/Shelter 5000. Wouldn't you? ;)

Marco.

MartinT
15-07-2011, 11:19
I'd rather have an SL-1200/SR5-21 PSU/DV-507II/AT-33PTG, than an SL-1200/Timestep PSU/Jelco SA-750/Shelter 5000. Wouldn't you? ;)

Yes! Nuff said :)

Beobloke
15-07-2011, 11:41
'scuse me for interrupting the scrap, but here's a piccie of the MP-30 in situ. :)

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/Alex_Steel1969/hifi/IMG_5588.jpg?t=1310723689

Right, you can carry on whacking each other with your arm wands and cantilevers now. ;)

Bleh! Get yourself a proper SME 3009 shell IMMEDIATELY! :spank:

(other than that, it looks great!)

Alex_UK
15-07-2011, 12:26
Bleh! Get yourself a proper SME 3009 shell IMMEDIATELY! :spank:

(other than that, it looks great!)

Cheers Adam - I do have the original - problem is it is in the "garage" which is a loose term for it, as there's no way any car would fit in, despite it being a double one. I think theirs a little bloke lives in there called "Stig" - and he's not the one that wears white overalls and a crash helmet...

I've contacted Sir Ranulph Fiennes, and he's agreed to accept the challenge - he's just trying to get the team together and then we will begin the expedition - the original 401 mat is also somewhere in there, on the north side of the old fridge, so we're hoping to reclaim both for Queen, Country & hifi. :)

Dominic Harper
15-07-2011, 12:35
I wouldn't bother with the original sme headshell Alex. Get a Sumiko one. Much better.

Alex_UK
15-07-2011, 12:39
I wouldn't bother with the original sme headshell Alex. Get a Sumiko one. Much better.

Hi Dom - I have a Sumiko, so maybe I'll try a swap - DSJR suggested that the MP-30 likes low mass, which was why I used the lightweight one but no drama to try the Sumiko - I need the practice anyway! ;)

DSJR
15-07-2011, 16:26
:hmm: I rather suspect it depends on what you are listening for. As a mainly classical fan the virtues of midrange/treble tonal neutrality and resolution come higher up the priorities than other things. So I would guess I am looking for a different balance of virtues than you are. :cool:

Would you go as far as the 'old school' flat earthers - and put a Linn K9 in a good arm/deck and expect it to outperform a 103 (say) in a standard Techie arm? I know I wouldn't. :)

Haven't read all the posts of today, but you've kind of blown it a little by preferring the Achromat to the Herbies, everything else being equal. In other words, the upgrade to the motor unit was easily reproduced by the arm and cartridge you use.

The K9 was a bit of a dogs dinner to be honest, but having heard just how bloody convincing an AT95E is in a top flight deck and arm, despite a touch of rawness and also recently how much better a Goldring G800 seems to sound when similarly treated (:eek: :doh: :ner:) even though the diamond is a roughly finished nail by modern standards (as most tips were back then) and also bearing in mind my Linn training over thirty years ago now :eek: i have to place the motor unit and arm before the cartridge, as inappropriate mounting of this latter can ruin the sense of disbelief that makes good HiFi AT ALL PRICE LEVELS so convincing.

Welder
15-07-2011, 16:26
Deeply distressed by your post Alex, nay positively horrified and you a forum mod as well, tsk tsk.:eek:

Frankly mate you are just not taking this whole Hi Fi business seriously enough. My god, head shells and mats in the garage and probably fighting off an e.coli attack as I type!

Has no one told you are supposed to cherish these items; music could issue forth (okay, unlikely from vinyl disc being scratched by a needle).

Frankly Alex given the above revelation my advice would be to get yourself one of those Technics DJ decks mate. I’ve seen them endure the type of abuse you seem prone to giving your stereo equipment and still manage to adequately serve a host of 12 year old aspiring MC/DJ’s.

I’ll tell you what, cancel Ranulf and I’ll take the job on for you and as a special favour coz I know you, I’ll take that fiddly old 401 off your hands as well. Can’t say fairer than that mate.

:sofa:

(feckin lonely behind this sofa since Alex got made up :( )

DSJR
15-07-2011, 16:33
I wouldn't bother with the original sme headshell Alex. Get a Sumiko one. Much better.

Dom, we're talking of a very high compliance catridge here. I would happily agree if this was a more "sturdy" design, but the MP series used to be rather fussy on arm mass I remember and too heavy an arm would set the thing wobbling on warped or ripply records. The SME shell, with their blac-tac gunk betwixt cartridge and shell (or some card-table baize, which I tried to excellent effect before SME introduced their stuff) may just be perfect for the MP30..

[edit] - The MP30 appears to be lower in compliance than I originally remembered it to be, so forget the stuff regarding the SME shell, as the Sumiko would DEFINITELY be better here I reckon, now I've looked the bloody review up....... Apologies all for mis-leading you.

Dominic Harper
15-07-2011, 16:40
Dave, I understand your concern, but the difference in mass between the sme shell and the sumiko is not that great. The sme shell is so resonant and flimsy almost anything would be better.
The sumiko gives a nice solid mount for the cartridge plus has a nice azimuth adjustment. Best thing for Alex would be to try both and see which is prefered.

jandl100
15-07-2011, 17:03
Haven't read all the posts of today, but you've kind of blown it a little by preferring the Achromat to the Herbies, everything else being equal. In other words, the upgrade to the motor unit was easily reproduced by the arm and cartridge you use.


Oh lordy .... :(

I really don't want to get into yet another "Oh yes it is, Oh no it isn't" forum argument.

But that really is total bollocks, Dave. :doh:

Where have I ever said that nothing but a cartridge makes any difference?
Of course my system is good enough to show the improvement to be had from the Achromat II, thanks very much! ;) So what? That doesn't impinge on my views one iota.

I'd like to ask Alex if he thinks he could have spent the £80 (less if sells the MP15) he lavished on the upgrade to the MP30 on any other upgrade and got a similar level of performance improvement? :)

jandl100
15-07-2011, 17:09
I'm afraid that things are rarely 'black & white' when assembling a musically rewarding hi-fi system, so quite often one has to put personal bias aside and apply some lateral thinking :)

Marco.

Yup - we are as one, I completely agree. :)

Which is why I objected to your rigid "motor unit > arm > cartridge" hierarchy! ;)

Marco
15-07-2011, 17:12
I'd like to ask Alex if he thinks he could have spent the £80 (less if sells the MP15) he lavished on the upgrade to the MP30 on any other upgrade and got a similar level of performance improvement?


Perhaps like you, he would've, had he fitted a new 5mm Achromat II (approx £70 inc shipping) to his T/T, instead of that other mat he uses at the moment? ;)

But no, I think there's no doubt that for £80, buying the Nagaoka would've given Alex the biggest bang for his buck, although it doesn't prove that cartridges always improve the sound more than the other partnering ancillaries on a T/T; merely that in this particular instance it was a beneficial move for Alex :)

Marco.

Marco
15-07-2011, 17:17
Yup - we are as one, I completely agree. :)

Which is why I objected to your rigid "motor unit > arm > cartridge" hierarchy! ;)

Indeed, although more often than not, it works!

And of course, by supporting the principle of lateral thinking, you're in turn agreeing that not in every instance is it true that cartridges make the most difference on a turntable (and speakers in a system), because not to agree, would be to display just as "rigid" a mindset, as evidenced by my assertion above ;)

Marco.

Alex_UK
15-07-2011, 17:24
Dave, I understand your concern, but the difference in mass between the sme shell and the sumiko is not that great. The sme shell is so resonant and flimsy almost anything would be better.
The sumiko gives a nice solid mount for the cartridge plus has a nice azimuth adjustment. Best thing for Alex would be to try both and see which is prefered.

OK, There's only one way to settle this - as Harry Hill would say - FIGHT! ;)

I've put the MP-30 in the Sumiko. (I'm wondering if the MP-15 is similarly compliant? I was using that in the Sumiko all along...)

Too early to tell how much difference there is as I have wife and nipper around, so only a quick chance to swap over (find 2 more 50p's to blu-tac to the counterweight!) and get it set up. Only played a couple of tracks, and that was just to make sure everything is working as it should. So I'll have a listen to some of the music I've played since getting the MP-30 over the weekend and report back... In the meantime, play nicely everyone! ;)

MartinT
15-07-2011, 17:44
Oh lordy .... :(

I really don't want to get into yet another "Oh yes it is, Oh no it isn't" forum argument.

Cool, Jerry. This is just debate, no more. We're not getting at you and different viewpoints are always welcome :)

Marco
15-07-2011, 17:49
Too early to tell how much difference there is as I have wife and nipper around, so only a quick chance to swap over (find 2 more 50p's to blu-tac to the counterweight!) and get it set up. Only played a couple of tracks, and that was just to make sure everything is working as it should. So I'll have a listen to some of the music I've played since getting the MP-30 over the weekend and report back...


I can see where Dave is coming from, and he may be right, but my gut feeling goes with Dominic, and the Sumiko, for reasons stated.

My suspicion is that the Sumiko isn't sufficiently 'overly-massy' for the potential sonically detrimental effect of this to outweigh its benefits, over the SME, in terms of its superior rigidity and lower resonance, both of which I feel should win the day...

However, it'll be interesting finding out what you think. Just make sure that the cartridge leads used are identical on both headshells, as those could influence the outcome enough to swing things in favour of one headshell or the other :)

Marco.

Alex_UK
15-07-2011, 18:02
Just make sure that the cartridge leads used are identical on both headshells, as those could influence the outcome enough to swing things in favour of one headshell or the other :)

:doh: Now he bl00dy tells me... Ok, I'll get my tweezers out again! ;)

Marco
15-07-2011, 18:04
Well, let's face it shweety, you don't need much excuse to get yer tweezers out! :lol:

Don't forget the magnifying glass, too, while you're at it.... {chunter, chunter} :flasher:

Marco.

DSJR
15-07-2011, 19:59
One broken stylus later and some severely stressed cartridge leads and Alex will send us all the bill!!!!!!!!!

I don't think I can continue to post what I'm trying to say, as it never seems to come out right, especially in my current state of mind.. Of course the MP30 should be better than the 15 - so it bloody well should be for the price difference. The 401/SME Alex has is more than good enough to show the difference.

Maybe I'm totally off my trolley regarding the SME shell vs the Sumiko - I am, see below...... I'm just remembering the cartridge under discussion rather than suggesting a downgrade. The SME arm has excellent azimuth adjustment built in and with the damping I suggested, the S2 shell won't be a huge issue WITH THIS CARTRIDGE. However, if the Sumiko proves to be far better with the MP30, Alex can quite easily afford to buy another ;)

Here endeth the non-existent disagreement. I'll let the new wave of guru's sort it out and for Alex to use his own lugs :lolsign:

Marco
15-07-2011, 20:07
Dave, you may still be right. I totally 'get' your argument, and it indeed has merit. It'll therefore be interesting what Alex reports with his findings :)

Marco.

Alex_UK
15-07-2011, 20:20
Thanks both - we shall see - doing my usual "splinters in the ass fence sitting" - my guess is that there will be pros and cons for each solution. I'll report back as soon as I can!

DSJR
15-07-2011, 20:33
I AM IN ERROR!!!!!!!!!!!

It's a good thing my Autistic tendencies have led me to keep and collect many of the old HiFi Choice compilations (except for the turntable one Martin T pinched from under my nose recently :steam:).

Right! The test in HFC issue 28 in 1982 suggests the MP30 was a LOWER compliance model (based on two samples) than the others tested over other issues and as a result, the Sumiko should be PERFECT for this model... It won a BEST BUY in this issue and retailed at £46, the Linn Asak listed at £207 in comparison. The Koetsu Rosewood was £500, the Decca Gold was £60 and the Denon 103C listed at £90. I'll leave you guys to make up your own minds as to who's ripping off whom.......

Alex_UK
15-07-2011, 20:44
Thanks for that Dave - will still be interesting to see if I think it is better! Mind you, it certainly looks better, which as we all know, is the most important thing! :lol:

Marco
15-07-2011, 21:20
Lol, Dave - you should've kept that to yourself until Alex had arrived at his conclusion! :doh:

;)

Marco.

Alex_UK
15-07-2011, 21:37
Definition of "bias expectation" :lol: No pressure, then! ;)

DSJR
16-07-2011, 09:54
Lol, Dave - you should've kept that to yourself until Alex had arrived at his conclusion! :doh:

;)

Marco.

Well you know me - heart on sleeve and all that.......:eek:

Anyway, Alex is comparing the Sumiko with a crappy old silveryt thing from a Pioneer or similar :lol: so the difference should be clearly audible I reckon :cool:

Alex_UK
16-07-2011, 10:01
Anyway, Alex is comparing the Sumiko with a crappy old silveryt thing from a Pioneer or similar :lol: so the difference should be clearly audible I reckon :cool:

Um, yes - the Sumiko definitely gets the :thumbsup: both sonically and aesthetically - thank god - don't want to be changing headshells again in a hurry!

Marco
16-07-2011, 10:13
Nice one, dude. I thought it might ;)

Enjoy!

Marco.

MartinT
16-07-2011, 10:27
I think the Sumiko is the base standard for headshells. All those efforts with lots of holes in them make me shudder.

DSJR
16-07-2011, 10:34
They wouldn't have done in 1973 - 1978 ;)

Marco
16-07-2011, 10:36
I think the Sumiko is the base standard for headshells. All those efforts with lots of holes in them make me shudder.


They hark from the days when the ultra-lowest mass possible was the holy grail, which was ultimately a fad that only worked with a handful of super-high-compliance cartridges, tracking at around 1g, and sometimes less....!

These days, we know better ;)

Marco.

DSJR
16-07-2011, 13:50
Ah, but now the SAS styli seem to transform the Shure 75, 95 and V15 models, you may just find the balance tipping back again ;)

You know Marco, I'm not sure we really do know better these days in some aspects. Old cartridges and even ancient Jurassic grinders like yours :ner: sound far better today and I can assure you that a properly tipped V15 Shure is light years ahead of the grubby, coal-tipped horrors of old. Shure themselves transformed the V15 III with their own HE tip in the 80's (I never got to see, let alone hear, the MR version) and the SAS diamond seems to offer incredibly low surface noise and maintains and even enhances tracking over earlier styli. I believe your SPU uses a version/relative of said diamond, does it not?

Alex_UK
16-07-2011, 16:58
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/Alex_Steel1969/IMG_5610.jpg?t=1310835542

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/Alex_Steel1969/hifi/IMG_5616.jpg?t=1310838454

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/Alex_Steel1969/hifi/IMG_5603.jpg?t=1310838619

Looks much better, and sounds it! :)