LISTENING-what not to hear- OR THE BASE LINE

[Varun]

Hello Forum,

The idea that what we like to hear is very much influenced by previous experience- here we are talking of "reproduced sound" and not live sound.

It has just dawned upon me what DSJR Dave has been going on about Master tapes and CD and analogue and valves. He is as usual absolutely right. However-where I think he is wrong is that some how he is comparing the master tape-CD sound with the LP12 type sound.

I also realized that the "tizz" "ring" Euphony produced by Linn-Naim sound was wrong- It needs or took me literally yeas to get used to equipment which did not do that.

To put it simply- it is the dead-unimpressive sound that DSJR is talking about. Heard first it sounds utterly boaring. Well Tempered TTs were exactly like that and the same applies to VPI as well. They go enormous distances to "deaden" the sound- or "dampen it".

Then moving from Solid state (NOT CLASS A) to valves has the same effect- one can then add any number of variables- cables types, supports, cartridges etc and so on.

Then the methodology of what is 'better' sound system-utterly erroneous was introduced by the reviewers in the 80s. They started focussing on physical aspects of sound and NOT music.

We see examples of this on the forum-like the Piano hammer hitting the 'string'; like fingers plucking the string of the bass guitar; or the different skins of the drum!

These aspects of sound have nothing to do with the music the musician is trying to get across to you and might not actually be intended to be heard.

Imagine placing a microphone so close to a 9 foot Steinway?

[John]

Some interesting thoughts and not a 100% sure where I stand on it
My first love is music anything that takes me closer to that experienceis worthy I play a bit of guitar and must of gone to about 2500 gigs at least so no matter how I go about it my experiences and own preferences will guide me
I know a few friends who work in the industry that say I got one of the best sounding systems regardless of price they ever heard
When I describe music from my system point of view I willtalk interms of resolution hearing how the leading edges of a note start and stops how harmonics are portrayed but this has nothing to do with how I experience music for me its a lot more of an emotional connection one I find hard to put into words but when I come back home I can be immersed in it For me a hifi system has a function to give me as much muical enjoyment as I can but its the the music I love and not the system

[Joe]

It's difficult to put into words what makes a good/great hifi system; the usual result is 'reviewer speak' that, as Varun says, picks the music to pieces and loses sight of the whole picture.

To be honest, unless one is a salesman or a paid reviewer, it's probably best not to even try to describe what a system sounds like, because one person's 'lively' is another person's 'artificial', and one person's 'natural' is another person's 'dull'. The only way to know if you like a piece of equipment is to hear it, and the only way to know if it's worth buying it is to hear it in your own system in your own room.

So, I'll stick with my own, entirely subjective yardstick; does this system make me listen to more music (and more types of music)? If yes, it's good, if not it's bad.

[John]

So, I'll stick with my own, entirely subjective yardstick; does this system make me listen to more music (and more types of music)? If yes, it's good, if not it's bad.

Thank you this makes total sense to me

[Ali Tait]

For me the yardstick is how much the sound engages me on an emotional level.I've always counted myself far more of a music lover than an audiophile,it's just that the more "real" the music sounds to me,the more it engages me,hence the constant search for the next emotional level.

[Varun]

Tell us more about which direction your search for next emotional level is taking you Ali?

I presume your pursuit is classical music driven-mainly? Might be worth raising the classical music side in these conversations and I do hope people would not object.

[hifi_dave]

I ( literally ) had tears in my eyes this afternoon, listening to ' Bookends ' by Simon & Garfunkel. The ' Old Friends ' track really got to me - ' Old friends, sat on a park bench like bookends. How terribly strange to be 70 ' I know exactly what they mean. :(

[Ali Tait]

Tell us more about which direction your search for next emotional level is taking you Ali?

I presume your pursuit is classical music driven-mainly? Might be worth raising the classical music side in these conversations and I do hope people would not object.

No,not mainly,though I do listen to classical,baroque and opera-particular favourites would be Bach,Vivaldi and Puccini.I mostly favour acoustic music of the folk/blues type,though I do have quite an eclectic taste.The next level for me will be the direct-coupled amps designed and built by Nick Gorham for my electrostatics I have already mentioned in a couple of threads.I think this will be as far as I can go where amplifiers are concerned in my system.I don't know of a better way to drive a 'stat.Even the lash-up prototype is amazing.The sorted final version will I'm sure be nothing short of sublime.
The last performance that moved me to tears was seeing Neil Young at Glastonbury-the most amazing live music I've ever heard,so emotional.

[Varun]

You need a rainbow in the sky Dave! Cheer up.

[Varun]

Ali,

To keep the conversation going- Bach to Puccini is a big jump as is Haydn to Shostokovic (the concert Barry was talking about).

Tell us which Puccini opera you like and have you attended !Live! performances? The Glyndebourne Opera I mentioned in the Analogue Vs Digital thread was Verdi's Othello with Othello's face painted black and the blonde soprano wearing glittering white silk.

Talking of classical Music I remembered that it is Jerry who is devoted to it- so perhaps I have confused you with him?

[REM]

The last performance that moved me to tears was seeing Neil Young at Glastonbury-the most amazing live music I've ever heard,so emotional.



That was on one of the screens in a pub I was in a couple of months ago now, this young 'chick' near us turned to her boyfriend and said "er...who's that old tramp on the telly?":doh:

[Ali Tait]

Ah well guess you had to be there.Varun,yes I think it must be Jerry you are thinking of,he is indeed a big classical fan.

[Varun]

By the way Ali,

I have installed my new cables-Ag>Cu very thick and the jumper leads are pure silver wire (strands). The manufacturer said NO NO - should not use spades and plugs for jumper leads-just plain wire.

Sounds great-very very good indeed. Better than the bi-wired sound I had and improving- which I bet it will for some weeks.

[Ali Tait]

Glad you got a good result.:)

[Varun]

I was prompted by DaveK having been provided by some upgrades to improve sound reception.

This has made me return to my first intention for the thread-which was to raise a number of issues.

First of all- and briefly- people who sight read music- do not need nth degree of sound reproduction. That was the reason for putting the image of Mozart's caricatures in the score of his C Minor concerto K491. I do not sight read but professional musicians have to.

Anyway- listening the frequencies. Although most HI-FIs claim to have a frequency range of 20Hz to 20Khz- both extremes are outside the human ear's compass. There was a lot of excitement when the CD medium was new- that one could hear the conductor turning the pages of the score or the russle of people's clothes etc.

20Hz sound can only be reached by one music instrument- The Organ. But you do not hear it- you feel it as the seat you are sitting on or the walls start vibrating.

The sharpest sound of all wind instruments is made by the Piccolo- no where near even the 12Khz mark I would say.

Then in sound reproduction- or recording or listening- we have low soft pianissimo sounds-barely audible. One does not encounter this in Pop-Rock (examples- Dire Straits-"Down to the waterline" "Lions") much but is a nightmare with many classical works as any attempt to make the music more audible results in bringing out the Tape Hiss. The solution has- in my experience - always been expensive.

More later.

[DSJR]

I have a "legacy" system (broadly described as a "museum piece" recently), which was pretty good in its day and was designed for reasonably accurate speech reproduction. A few cheap tweaks, home-made cables and a couple of new valves later and I have a musically involving setup which is used daily, give or take, is detailed without pulling the music apart as my ATC Monitors are designed to do and will also play at lowish volume levels without losing much at all, accepting that it won't play at ear-splitting levels as a good big speaker can.

I found that my tastes in audio reproduction at home changed markedly as I've become older. The quacky screech that emanated from my third pair of Isobariks would now be intolerable, the fuzzy muddle that emanated from my second pair of 'briks wouldn't suit either, yet I miss the Epos ES14's I had from Robin himself, which had me in tears with their beauty...

The final piece for me (nail in the coffin for my detractor) will be getting the Crofted Quad II's back into service - gloriously coloured but SO musical and involving to hear...

[hifi_dave]

Get those Croft mod'd Quad's out of the loft and onto your BC2's, you know it makes sense.:smoking:

[Varun]

I do not think I can now say for sure which bit solved the noise floor problem..
LP12, Ittok, Assak and 802/509s did not-most certainly-even with all the uptodate mods of the late 80s.

Neither did the addition of Well tempered to the system to replace the LP12. If it did-then perhaps the biggest change was made by the phono-preamp I think. VPI-TNT is excellent in this respect. I was reminded of this aspect of sound reproduction by the reviewer (Stereophile) talking of that Australian 100K monster with glitches in construction here and there.

[MartinT]

Then moving from Solid state (NOT CLASS A) to valves has the same effect- one can then add any number of variables- cables types, supports, cartridges etc and so on.

I'm not so sure about this; to me the instant euphony of valve equipment (with a few exceptions) is an easy fix. Yes, if I was bereft of money I could hook up my Leak Stereo 20 with a pair of half decent speakers and a Cambridge Audio cheapie CD player and have instant gratification. However, I think there is more to it than that.

The reason I like solid state (and my Pass and Chord equipment in particular) is that it gives tremendous insight into the music, but the journey is not an easy one. Transistor equipment is much more touchy about synergy, mains power, cables, supports and in fact everything in order to obtain marvellous sound. All too often tranny gear can sound cold, harsh, lacking in depth and pretty horrible. But get everything right and, oh my, the level of fidelity goes through the roof and suddenly you're hearing things on a far higher plane, with greater consistency. I also believe, having heard master tape on a few occasions and hi-res source material on many, that it can truly approach the original sound to a very satisfying degree.

That, for me, is why I moved on from valve to solid state equipment some years ago and am unlikely to go back.

[Welder]

Varun.

”Then the methodology of what is 'better' sound system-utterly erroneous was introduced by the reviewers in the 80s. They started focussing on physical aspects of sound and NOT music”

The point at which the listener is listening to the equipment and not the music is often overlooked.

[Marco]

Hi Martin,


I'm not so sure about this; to me the instant euphony of valve equipment (with a few exceptions) is an easy fix.


Out of interest, would you say the TD copper amp that you heard in your system was one of those exceptions?

Certainly in my system, there is none of the euphony of valves of which you speak (neither the copper amp nor my Croft preamp possess that quality), and indeed I definitely did not move from soild-state to valves to gain euphony - in fact, quite the opposite!

I do very much agree with the rest of your post, though :)

Marco.

[MartinT]

Out of interest, would you say the TD copper amp that you heard in your system was one of those exceptions?

Yes I would and it was the Copper amp I was remembering when I said there were exceptions. That amp and my Chord were so surprisingly close in sound that it gave the lie to the technology being necessarily different. I guess it's just the implementation that mostly gives valves their euphonic nature. I'm thinking of my Leak Stereo 20 and Rogers Cadet amps as typical examples that will make any system sound good, glossing over issues that transistors might bring to the fore.

[Steve Eddy]

I guess it's just the implementation that mostly gives valves their euphonic nature.

Bingo.

se

[Marco]

Hi Martin,


Yes I would and it was the Copper amp I was remembering when I said there were exceptions. That amp and my Chord were so surprisingly close in sound that it gave the lie to the technology being necessarily different. I guess it's just the implementation that mostly gives valves their euphonic nature.


Indeed, and also the type of valves used, and whether the amp in question is single-ended or push-pull.

Anthony's KT88 P/P designs, with the right speakers, have all the drive and 'balls' of a solid-state 'muscle' amp (what's your Chord rated at again - 350W?), together with the texture and tonal colour of a good valve amp.

As long as you use the right speakers, you can have the best of both worlds with a top-notch valve amp! :)

Marco.

[John]

As pointed out not all valve amps are euphonic in nature and when partnered correctly have balls, scale and speed

[MartinT]

what's your Chord rated at again - 350W?

Yes, 350Wpc into 8 ohms, 620Wpc into 4 ohms.

[Marco]

Lol - madness... And yet strangely, the copper amp, rated at only 30W, sounded just as 'powerful'.

Marco.

[MartinT]

My Ushers don't really need that much power to go too loud to think. It's a trait of larger speakers to be more efficient and your Tannoys would be similar.

[Marco]

Indeed :)

Btw, on a different subject, I hooked up Paul's SR5 PSU today.... All I can say is 'Bloody Hell', this thing is awesome! :eek:

I can't wait to hear it with your platter.

Marco.

[MartinT]

Agreed, I had Shuggie's SR5 running my Techie and it did sound good, unlike the SR3 where I couldn't hear a difference from the Timestep.

[chris@panteg]

How much is the SR5 ?