View Full Version : A visit to Qwin's...
Popped over to Ken's place with a few bits and bobs and a couple of cans last night to hear his system. Like me, Ken's made a few changes to his kit over recent months and we were keen to compare a few cables, his modifed Croft pre with my micro basic with upgraded valves and also to get his perspective on my sl1210 mods. I was also keen to hear his recently acquired Yamaha NS1000M speakers which to have ousted his Celestion 66s must be something special indeed. I understand Ken's made a few mods to these speakers since he got them so I'll leave to him to say what he's done with them.
After arriving, cracking open a can and a bit of a catch up we got down to business. Ken was playing some CDs, Rumer and the excellent OMD English Electric via his Sugden CDP into his Cambridge Audio DAC, then to his Croft Micro pre and excellent Proton power amp. Initally we were using the Van Damme HiFi cable. My initial impression was one of a system which whilst perfectly detailed and well mannered was being held back in some way, dare I lacking a little verve. The culprit was easily identified and the DIY cat5 interconnect between the DAC and Pre was quickly swapped out for my current favorite budget interconnect, a pair of NVA soundcords. Much better! Right away the sound had opened up and the system began to reveal more of it's potential. The Yamahas came to life a bit more and there was immediate sparkle. I'd also brought along a few other budget interconnects including a QED profile, and some old monster interlink I had lying around but we never got to them as we seemed quite happy with what the soundcord was doing.
Next order of business was trying a few speaker cables which had been the original intention of our get together, Ken has written elsewhere here on his preference for the Van Damme HiFi over the blue stuff http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?37782-Van-Damme-Blue-v-Hifi-speaker-cable-reviewed
I'd certainly go along with his finding here and the HiFi beat the blue for me, nicer midrange, better resolved top end than the blue and actually a little 'creamyness' to the sound which I don't mind at all. My role here was to bring along a few other budget cables to provide some other points of comparison. Sadly I missed the postman so the TQ blue I'd picked up as a bargain from a member here wasn't available but I did take along some Rega Quattro and some NVA LS2. Untill recently, and as part of an complete Rega system, the Quattro had been my cable of choice. Those who've heard my kit at previous NEBOs will have seen this cable in use. Its pretty unruly stuff but a bit of a snip at £4-£5 per biwire metre, this becomes even more cost effective as you can easily split it to make a stereo pair. Anyway, I digress... of on another Rega rant as I'm still prone to do.
After trying the Van Damme cables we plugged in the NVA LS2, and played some CDs I'd brought...King Crimson - Discipline, Idlewild - Warnings and Promises. Something was immediately wrong here, the voices were thin, the bass was way back in the mix and the overall balance we'd got with the Van Damme stuff was gone. It lasted a couple of tracks. I've used LS2 in my system whilst auditioning some NVA amps, in order to keep with their designer's requirements for how they are used. I personally didn't find them bad with NVA amps and my speakers but Ken's Yamahas were taking no prisoner's and showed this budget cable up for all it is. In fairness I knew this was a shortcoming in my system and always intended to replace these cable with something better, NVA have suggested the same to me so I'll be doing this in the near future and trying some LS1 or better I think.
Onto the cheap Rega cables then... what a surprise. By this time we'd moved onto some Johnny Cash, with his version of Rusty Cage being one of our comparison tracks. From the off there was an immediate depth to that low voice which caused Ken and I to remark on the low end depth we were getting from these cables. They weren't as well resolved in the top end as the Van Damme HiFi but there wasn't much in it. Ken said he wished we could take the top end and upper mid from the Van Damme and combine it with the mid and low end conviction of the Regas. I'd entirely agree.
So on the cables front, the Van Damme HiFi had it, but by a nose for me. I've left the Rega cables with Ken so he can do some more comparisons in his own time and expect he'll have more to say on this.
The night was drawing on a bit but not before we'd swapped out Ken's Cambridge Audio DAC for my Rega. The difference here was not subtle, on the previously mentioned Johnny Cash track we immediately noticed a second guitar twanging away and much more prominent in the mix than with the Cambridge DAC. I was also of the opinion that I could hear more of the natural resonances you get from an acoustic guitar with the Rega DAC. For me, the Rega put the Cambridge DAC into the corner and I think changing the DAC might be next on the list for Ken.
The biggest surprise of the night came when we turned to playing some vinyl. The NEBO faithful will already be familiar with Ken's beautiful terminator arm and mega modified technics with concrete plinth and Project RPM platter. I will never grow tired of hearing this deck and it played some Donald Fagen and Swing Out Sister beautifully through through the phono stage in his his Croft Micro... Anyone familar with my gallery thread here will have seen some of the trials and tribulations I've had with my technics mods and how I felt they'd left my deck a bit soulless. I demonstrated this deck to Ken using a NVA Phono1 stage. It wasn't bad by any stretch but we both felt the sound was over dampened in some way and far too polite and gentle overall. If anything, the AT440MLA cartridge I'm using, which has reputation for being a bit of a screamer was being held back in some way. We both considered my tonearm cable is in dire need of improvement but all bets were off when I introduced my Croft Micro basic into the mix. This has been modified with 2 x SOVTEK 12AX7LPS valves and 1 x BRIMAR 6060 Yellow T. We connected my techie to this pre and then quickly lashed it up to Ken's Proton power amp with the soundcords. My goodness:stalks::eek::D It was bloody fantastic, my deck came to life in an instant and Ken's Yammies were singing away. Incredible dynamics and such life and verve to the sound! Ken even said he wished he could get his vinyl sound more like it, which I took as huge encouragement that I'd finally got something right. To round off the evening we enjoyed some of Fleetwood Mac's Tango in the night album on this setup and I left feeling that, short of getting a few final bits and bobs for the techie... I'm well on my way to a killer vinyl front end now.
Hopefully Ken will pop by and add his perspectives on what was a thoroughly enjoyable night with a few genuine surprises for us both. Thanks for having me over Ken and roll on NEBO6 where we'll hopefully get to share some of our findings with the rest of the gang.
Cheers :cool:
R
Nice to have you down Rich and thanks for the beer, you have it about right with the way things went.
Let me just state the obvious for folks, there is no “best cable” as such, it depends on how well it suits the gear you attach it to, so our comments relate to the synergy we experienced with the kit we were using (Croft Pre/Proton Power/NS1000M Speaks).
My mods on the speakers are just a simple re cap and some new binding posts to replace the spring clips, I also upgraded the bell wire between the posts and he cross over board.
Detailed here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?36385-Yamaha-NS1000M-Tweaks
Speaker Cable
The Van Damme Blue was pleasant enough, but for me the Van Damme HiFi cable broadened the spectrum at both ends and gave a little warmth and richness to the mids, which we both seemed to pick up on. The old Rega stuff that Rich brought along had an even better bottom end with great detail and depth, as he indicated I preferred the absolute clarity which the VD hifi cable produced on the Yammies top end. So there really wasn’t much to choose between these two. I didn’t like the NVA cable in this set up at all, dull and lifeless, it was 6mm square copper section as were the Blue and Hifi we compared. We never got round to putting my Atlas Hyper 2.5 into service on the night, but I am very familiar with how it sounds in this set up and it would not have competed with the best, a bit too soft and laid back for my taste.
So as we left it, I have the Rega cable on loan to do some more comparisons with the VD HiFi, when I get some better interconnects. Rich has some VD hifi on loan to see how it works with the rest of his set up at home.
Interconnects
My DIY Cat5 and Cambridge Audio “Arctic” cables were reasonable, but when we dropped in the budget NVA “Sound Cord” on my DAC to Pre things opened right up and there was an extra warmth to the mids that I picked up on. This warmth combined with that of the speaker cable had transformed the Yamaha’s reputed Monitor style analytical presentation into one which was really very musical indeed. When this cable was used between the Pre and Power it also worked well, for me it produced a noticeable lift in dynamics.
This cable is cheap as chips and made from RG316/U coax, which is to military spec and normally used for RF/Data transfer. It has PTFE insulation between inner and outer conductor and an FEP outer sleeve which is only 2.5mm diameter. It is 50 ohm and around 96pf/m capacitance, it’s available on the Bay for £2.29/meter delivered. I was more than happy to leave this cable in the system.
Turntable
Small correction to how Rich described my deck, it is a plywood, plinth, it used to be concrete.
Having made so many changes to my system recently, my TT set up is anything but fully optimised, I need a new MM cartridge to work with the Croft phono stage (was using MC cartridge/phono) and longer leads from cartridge to Phono, my leads on the night were extended using connectors and additional leads, which is not ideal. It still produced a decent sound, and was a good yardstick to gauge the performance of Rich’s deck, which he has been unhappy with. His first demo sounded dull and lacked any dynamics, I could see why he was a bit put off after his upgrades. Like he pointed out, we took his NVA phono out of the loop and played the deck directly through his Croft Pre/phono, I would agree the difference was huge, now detailed and dynamic very musical and foot tapping. Rich made the comment about it sounding like a different deck. I think he is back on track with his vinyl set up and confidant in his deck/arm/cartridge combination. I found things to be envious of in the quality of the sound this combination put out, so I will be looking at some valve rolling and sorting my leads and Cartridge out in the following Months. To be fair to the NVA phono stage, it has not got many hours on it and may improve with time, but it would have to improve a lot. Stick with the Croft mate, it was doing the business.
DAC
The Rega DAC which Rich brought along showed up the weaknesses of my little Dacmagic. That extra guitar that could suddenly be heard on the Johnny Cash track convinced me. I was thinking about upgrading my DAC anyway and after hearing the difference it can make, it is pretty much going to have to be done.
That about covers it from me, it was a great session with plenty to follow up on. Hopefully we will get things sorted for the next NEBO meet. :D :cool:
jollyfix
11-04-2015, 16:34
Great guys , i enjoyed reading your posts. Sounds like you had a fun evening.
brian2957
11-04-2015, 16:38
Nice write up guys , sounds like you had a great day . My DAC of choice is also the Rega DAC and I've no inclination to change it at the moment. Thanks for sharing your experiences .
Nice to have you down Rich and thanks for the beer, you have it about right with the way things went.
Let me just state the obvious for folks, there is no “best cable” as such, it depends on how well it suits the gear you attach it to, so our comments relate to the synergy we experienced with the kit we were using (Croft Pre/Proton Power/NS1000M Speaks).
My mods on the speakers are just a simple re cap and some new binding posts to replace the spring clips, I also upgraded the bell wire between the posts and he cross over board.
Detailed here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?36385-Yamaha-NS1000M-Tweaks
Speaker Cable
The Van Damme Blue was pleasant enough, but for me the Van Damme HiFi cable broadened the spectrum at both ends and gave a little warmth and richness to the mids, which we both seemed to pick up on. The old Rega stuff that Rich brought along had an even better bottom end with great detail and depth, as he indicated I preferred the absolute clarity which the VD hifi cable produced on the Yammies top end. So there really wasn’t much to choose between these two. I didn’t like the NVA cable in this set up at all, dull and lifeless, it was 6mm square copper section as were the Blue and Hifi we compared. We never got round to putting my Atlas Hyper 2.5 into service on the night, but I am very familiar with how it sounds in this set up and it would not have competed with the best, a bit too soft and laid back for my taste.
So as we left it, I have the Rega cable on loan to do some more comparisons with the VD HiFi, when I get some better interconnects. Rich has some VD hifi on loan to see how it works with the rest of his set up at home.
Interconnects
My DIY Cat5 and Cambridge Audio “Arctic” cables were reasonable, but when we dropped in the budget NVA “Sound Cord” on my DAC to Pre things opened right up and there was an extra warmth to the mids that I picked up on. This warmth combined with that of the speaker cable had transformed the Yamaha’s reputed Monitor style analytical presentation into one which was really very musical indeed. When this cable was used between the Pre and Power it also worked well, for me it produced a noticeable lift in dynamics.
This cable is cheap as chips and made from RG316/U coax, which is to military spec and normally used for RF/Data transfer. It has PTFE insulation between inner and outer conductor and an FEP outer sleeve which is only 2.5mm diameter. It is 50 ohm and around 96pf/m capacitance, it’s available on the Bay for £2.29/meter delivered. I was more than happy to leave this cable in the system.
Turntable
Small correction to how Rich described my deck, it is a plywood, plinth, it used to be concrete.
Having made so many changes to my system recently, my TT set up is anything but fully optimised, I need a new MM cartridge to work with the Croft phono stage (was using MC cartridge/phono) and longer leads from cartridge to Phono, my leads on the night were extended using connectors and additional leads, which is not ideal. It still produced a decent sound, and was a good yardstick to gauge the performance of Rich’s deck, which he has been unhappy with. His first demo sounded dull and lacked any dynamics, I could see why he was a bit put off after his upgrades. Like he pointed out, we took his NVA phono out of the loop and played the deck directly through his Croft Pre/phono, I would agree the difference was huge, now detailed and dynamic very musical and foot tapping. Rich made the comment about it sounding like a different deck. I think he is back on track with his vinyl set up and confidant in his deck/arm/cartridge combination. I found things to be envious of in the quality of the sound this combination put out, so I will be looking at some valve rolling and sorting my leads and Cartridge out in the following Months. To be fair to the NVA phono stage, it has not got many hours on it and may improve with time, but it would have to improve a lot. Stick with the Croft mate, it was doing the business.
DAC
The Rega DAC which Rich brought along showed up the weaknesses of my little Dacmagic. That extra guitar that could suddenly be heard on the Johnny Cash track convinced me. I was thinking about upgrading my DAC anyway and after hearing the difference it can make, it is pretty much going to have to be done.
That about covers it from me, it was a great session with plenty to follow up on. Hopefully we will get things sorted for the next NEBO meet. :D :cool:
Sounds like good night Ken. Glad you and Rich B getting some good results with the Croft Micro.
If you are looking for a good MM Cartridge to use with the Croft the Ortofon 2M Black is a superb match, real power and live dynamics. Bit pricy though.
:worthless:
;)
Sounds like you guys had a great time, which is the main thing, and discovered some interesting things, but you should've taken some piccies!!
Marco.
:worthless:
;)
Sounds like you guys had a great time, which is the main thing, and discovered some interesting things, but you should've taken some piccies!!
Marco.
Never even occured to me mate...
Besides, nothing to see here... just a couple of guys comparing their wires:lol:
Not pics of your ugly mugs, fondling each other's hairy arses in matching floral frocks [certainly not before the watershed, anyway], but PICS OF THE KIT BEING LISTENED TO IN SITU, daftee! :eyebrows: ;)
Just as one does at Nebo... One to remember in future? :)
Anyway, I'm glad that you seem to be happier now with your Techy, as you've heard it sound fab at Ken's place (sans hum?), and that you're now confident you're going down the right road. If you carry out what I suggested in your Gallery thread, in terms of mat and feet upgrades, trust me, you'll be more delighted than ever at just how good your Techy can sound!! :exactly:
Marco.
http://hifimediy.com/DACs/ready-made-dacs/spdif-dac-230V
Ken, on the subject of cheap and cheerful alternatives to your Cambridge DAC, I have one of these as as USB DAC in a my bedroom system but this one would be better for you as it has the SPDIF connections you'd need. I was amazed at how good it was for beer money. The SABRE ES9023 chip makes for one of the most natural sounding DACs I've found. In terms of how it sounded against the Rega I couldn't honestly say there was much in it. Maybe even get one of their boards and match it with a bigger and better PSU for a very nice and budget friendly alternative.
Would be interesting to try one of those on the RPi, and compare it with the IQ-Audio DAC..... :)
Marco.
Would be interesting to try one of those on the RPi, and compare it with the IQ-Audio DAC..... :)
Marco.
You want to try mine Marco? I'll send it down if you like.
Mine is this one with the separate PSU http://hifimediy.com/usb-dac2
I'd need the Hi-Fi Berry interface for that, mate, as only by fitting that would I be able to try external DACs, with the Pi. The IQ-Audio DAC is a fixed device, and you can't plug another DAC into it.
If someone going to the next NEBO buys an RPi/Hi-Fi Berry, then I could bring my RPi/IQ-Audio combo along and do the comparison with the SABRE then :cool:
Marco.
I'd need the Hi-Fi Berry interface for that, mate, as only by fitting that would I be able to try external DACs, with the Pi. The IQ-Audio DAC is a fixed device, and you can't plug another DAC into it.
If someone going to the next NEBO buys an RPi/Hi-Fi Berry, then I could bring my RPi/IQ-Audio combo along and do the comparison with the SABRE then :cool:
Marco.
Ahh ok, so it wouldn't work just from the usb socket of the RPi then? I hadn't realised
Never thought about taking pictures on the night :(, maybe next time.
Thats an intresting looking DAC Rich, I need at least one coax + Toslink + USB input for my current set up though.
As I mentioned to you, I have been considering the Jolida DAC with tube output stage. This uses a pair of ECC83 valves like the Croft Phono stage, my logic being that both vinyl and digital sources would then be 83's feeding into the Croft line stage (phono goes through line stage). This may have some kind of unifying effect and bring a form of synergy between sources, on the other hand it may do nothing of the kind, it was just something that crossed my mind. It's supposed to be a half decent DAC in its own right anyway. If I end up with a Rpi for FBA it would only be for my CDP and TV/Radio/movies.
Jimbo - Yes it was a good session, my short list for a new cartridge has came down to the 2M Black and the Nagaoka MP500, they are similar in price.
In terms of sound, the 2M is supposed to be slightly more hifi and the MP500 a bit more organic, generalizing terribly there. I've only heard the 2M Black but have read many reviews by users, some who own bothe and I now there is not much between them. What sold it for me, is the MP500 is suposed to be better at handeling noise and wear on older records (majority of my collection) and a replacement stylus is about half the price of the 2M Black, so I am saving my pennies for the Nagaoka. :)
Never thought about taking pictures on the night :(, maybe next time.
Thats an intresting looking DAC Rich, I need at least one coax + Toslink + USB input for my current set up though.
As I mentioned to you, I have been considering the Jolida DAC with tube output stage. This uses a pair of ECC83 valves like the Croft Phono stage, my logic being that both vinyl and digital sources would then be 83's feeding into the Croft line stage (phono goes through line stage). This may have some kind of unifying effect and bring a form of synergy between sources, on the other hand it may do nothing of the kind, it was just something that crossed my mind. It's supposed to be a half decent DAC in its own right anyway. If I end up with a Rpi for FBA it would only be for my CDP and TV/Radio/movies.
Jimbo - Yes it was a good session, my short list for a new cartridge has came down to the 2M Black and the Nagaoka MP500, they are similar in price.
In terms of sound, the 2M is supposed to be slightly more hifi and the MP500 a bit more organic, generalizing terribly there. I've only heard the 2M Black but have read many reviews by users, some who own bothe and I now there is not much between them. What sold it for me, is the MP500 is suposed to be better at handeling noise and wear on older records (majority of my collection) and a replacement stylus is about half the price of the 2M Black, so I am saving my pennies for the Nagaoka. :)
You could easily get round that with a USB to SPDIF converter. I have a musical fidelity VLINKII but they can be had much cheaper than that. I think Stan Beresford doess one which looks good. Interestingly I see they are doing a RPi dac which I bet will sound great, pretty cheap too... http://hifimediy.com/DACs/i2s-raspberry-pi-dac
Never thought about taking pictures on the night :(, maybe next time.
Thats an intresting looking DAC Rich, I need at least one coax + Toslink + USB input for my current set up though.
As I mentioned to you, I have been considering the Jolida DAC with tube output stage. This uses a pair of ECC83 valves like the Croft Phono stage, my logic being that both vinyl and digital sources would then be 83's feeding into the Croft line stage (phono goes through line stage). This may have some kind of unifying effect and bring a form of synergy between sources, on the other hand it may do nothing of the kind, it was just something that crossed my mind. It's supposed to be a half decent DAC in its own right anyway. If I end up with a Rpi for FBA it would only be for my CDP and TV/Radio/movies.
Jimbo - Yes it was a good session, my short list for a new cartridge has came down to the 2M Black and the Nagaoka MP500, they are similar in price.
In terms of sound, the 2M is supposed to be slightly more hifi and the MP500 a bit more organic, generalizing terribly there. I've only heard the 2M Black but have read many reviews by users, some who own bothe and I now there is not much between them. What sold it for me, is the MP500 is suposed to be better at handeling noise and wear on older records (majority of my collection) and a replacement stylus is about half the price of the 2M Black, so I am saving my pennies for the Nagaoka. :)
I think either cartridge would be good Ken, Indeed I would like to try the MP500 myself. I just mentioned the 2M black as I use it with my Croft set up and it does have a nice synergy.:)
Floyddroid
12-04-2015, 20:18
Sounds like a fantastic night guys. Very interesting read too. Sounds like you guys had a ball. I must get up and have a listen to your gear guys. I hope you are bringing those Yams to NEBO 6 Ken, i can't wait to hear them. Of course i will not be drinking as much ale on the next occasion due to being a reformed character. Speak soon.
I think either cartridge would be good Ken, Indeed I would like to try the MP500 myself. I just mentioned the 2M black as I use it with my Croft set up and it does have a nice synergy.:)
Sounds like a fantastic night guys. Very interesting read too. Sounds like you guys had a ball. I must get up and have a listen to your gear guys. I hope you are bringing those Yams to NEBO 6 Ken, i can't wait to hear them. Of course i will not be drinking as much ale on the next occasion due to being a reformed character. Speak soon.
You're welcome round anytime I'm home Steve. Just give me buzz, it's only a half hour up the road.
I intend to tie a few on at the next Nebo so if you should fall off the wagon you'll be in good company.
Sounds like a fantastic night guys. Very interesting read too. Sounds like you guys had a ball. I must get up and have a listen to your gear guys. I hope you are bringing those Yams to NEBO 6 Ken, i can't wait to hear them. Of course i will not be drinking as much ale on the next occasion due to being a reformed character. Speak soon.
Yes it was great to get Rich's perspective on my gear and try a few things I had not come accross. I'm hoping to have the leads sorted for NEBO6, I will bring the Yammies plus a Pre/Power combo I've not brought before to add to the variety.
Allways welcome for a preview Steve.
Have you got your amps sorted?
It would be nice to hear those big Tannoy D900's of yours.
Floyddroid
13-04-2015, 15:01
Yes mate, i am well up for that. Yes, amps all sorted and ready to boogie. I will give you a bell about coming down to listen to the Tannoys
Yes it was great to get Rich's perspective on my gear and try a few things I had not come accross. I'm hoping to have the leads sorted for NEBO6, I will bring the Yammies plus a Pre/Power combo I've not brought before to add to the variety.
Allways welcome for a preview Steve.
Have you got your amps sorted?
It would be nice to hear those big Tannoy D900's of yours.
I've had time to compare the Rega Quattro and Van Damme HiFi cables more closely in my system.
The Rega cable certainly has a rich midrange and depth to the bass with a good 3D sound stage, it shone on simple accoustic tracks, its weakness being the lack of a clean and detailed top end, its a bit grainy. When I tried more complex tracks with full orchestra it started to struggle and the softer edges to notes started to blur making the definition between individual instruments less noticable.
The Van Damme is crisp, clean and transparent at the top and I found it much easier to pick out instruments and follow complex passages, its no slouch with bass content and slam, but not as rich as the Rega mids, which initially sound very impressive. After trying different music styles, I found the VD coped better over all, with the Rega being more particular as to what worked with it and what didn't.
So the winner and the one staying in my system for now is the Van Damme HiFi, but I would love to have some of the elements of the Rega, maybe there is a cable out there that can give this result in my system, or maybe new interconnects will help.
They are both excelent budget cables and for now the VD is the one to beat, it will be intresting to see how it compares with the Tellurium Blue in Rich's system. :)
Floyddroid
04-06-2015, 10:53
RPi made from freeze dried snake oil and then reconstituted with maidens urine before use. not for me methinks!
Would be interesting to try one of those on the RPi, and compare it with the IQ-Audio DAC..... :)
Marco.
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