View Full Version : IanMac Bearing
This follows on from the thread: Can you improve the Stock Bearing. IanMac has done an interesting mod on the stock bearing but it should have a thread of its own.
For those who have not followed that thread the short point is that IanMac has essentially used a Teflon, a known slippery material for the thrust-pad. In principal this seems a brilliant and obvious idea and surely can only reduce rumble. The problems, if I understand it correctly, were twofold. First Teflon is not hard enough, and second keeping this material in place would require a new housing. The first problem Ian has solved by using a very hard type, called Peek. Second, his engineering skill have enabled him to make a housing.
Below is a comparative picture.
http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Bearings_zps3bzzhh1t.jpg (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/Andrei_nz/media/Bearings_zps3bzzhh1t.jpg.html)
The Mike New bearing is on the left, a stock bearing in the centre and the IanMac on the right.
I've had my IanMac bearing for quite a while now and I have decided I will keep using it. I have done a comparison of four bearings spin down times. When I say 'four' I have tested the IanMac Bearing twice, once as supplied, and then in a bath of oil. Here are the results.
http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Excel_zpshzuocvix.jpg (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/Andrei_nz/media/Excel_zpshzuocvix.jpg.html)
Each entry is an average of five readings. Larger numbers are better. I have done the test for each bearing in four scenarios. Twice with platter only at 33 and 45 rpm. And twice with a 5mm Achromat, 180 gram LP and the Michel Clamp. So at 33 rpm with platter only the IanMac bearing takes a little over 20 seconds to stop spinning. This is an improvement over the stock bearing.
Subjectively the IanMac bearing seems to have improved over the weeks I have had it, so maybe there is some benefit to running it in, though I did notice an improvement over the MNB straight out of the box as it were. I am not sure about the oil bath. I think improved slippery oils would help if it was a metal against metal bearing / thrustpad contact. But with Peek I am not so sure.
I have taken some readings in Audacity. I have used the silent groove on The Ultimate Analogue Test LP by Analogue Productions. They look like this in Audacity:
http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Audacity_zpssp1nf034.jpg (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/Andrei_nz/media/Audacity_zpssp1nf034.jpg.html)
I have taken Plot Spectrums from the Analyze menu. But I do not know how to interpret them. Anyone know what they mean and what are the best paramaters to choose.
http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Plot%20Spectrum%20%20A_zpszagadthz.jpg (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/Andrei_nz/media/Plot%20Spectrum%20%20A_zpszagadthz.jpg.html)
The net result is that I will be using IanMacs bearing from now and in due course will put my MNB up for sale. I will continue to experiment with different lubricants. I have a suspicion though that it may be best without any lubricant.
Audio Al
08-04-2015, 05:07
Did you include any bearing contact size / friction calculations / measurements ?
Did you include any bearing contact size / friction calculations / measurements ?
No. What would you calculate and measure?
Peek is a good choice, as peek ceramic bearings are quite common.
I would suggest that your choice of oil is not the best.
It would also be interesting to compare the funk bearing, as this is another proven combination of materials.
Oldpinkman
08-04-2015, 07:05
I can probably bring you a bearing and (shop soiled) platter this weekend cagey, although the news last night that the agent has sold the house we wanted to buy to someone else and air traffic control strikes threatened are making us consider cancelling the trip :(
Air traffic control? If I lived in Kent, I'd be driving to France [and collecting some wine en route]! :exactly:
Sorry to hear about the house.
Marco.
:( Bad news on the house.
Air traffic control strikes are affecting things for sure today, and possibly tomorrow.
I'm certainly interested in trying the bits, as it will be an interesting comparison with the Mike New bearing and the Mk1 Funk platter. The only thing missing would be Ian's bearing.
I would't put any value in spin down times they mean diddly squat! You'd hate the grease bearing in my KD-990 :D
For me it will be about noticeable drops in the "noise floor".
Very subjective, but I don't have any real way of measuring it.
I'll trust my ears to decide if there is any difference.
Oldpinkman
08-04-2015, 08:56
Air traffic control? If I lived in Kent, I'd be driving to France [and collecting some wine en route]! :exactly:
Sorry to hear about the house.
Marco.
Thanks. We drove last time - but are "trialling" living out there and working here. And even from sunny Kent its a long slog. A good 9 hours, 10 hours really from Calais to the house. Plus ferry / tunnel, plus an hour in Kent - it ends up being 15 hours. Possible, but exhausting for a single driver. Gutted (and angry) about the house..
Very interesting post, thank you Andrei.
I can't understand the meaning of the graphics but I'd like to try a different bearing (I have the original one).
Audio Al
08-04-2015, 14:04
No. What would you calculate and measure?
I'm no engineer , however from memory i did see some images of the Mike New bearing out of the housing and the spindle is bigger ( tried to find the photos )
If the mass of the bearing spindle is bigger in a bigger housing surly it will have a larger contact area , spindle to housing contact , this will add friction and will result in shorter run down time , Is run down time relevant ? as its only running time accuracy that counts , The 1210 has a fine direct drive motor that copes with the bigger bearing and different types of platters and can maintaining speed accuracy ( just my opinion as a numpty ) :)
Peek is a good choice, as peek ceramic bearings are quite common.
I would suggest that your choice of oil is not the best.
It would also be interesting to compare the funk bearing, as this is another proven combination of materials.
I don't know what oil it is but it is the oil that was supplied by Mike with the MNB.
The Funk Bearing is extremely interesting and a polar opposite of Ian's approach. Peek is very hard but relative to Sapphire it is soft. One method is to obtain the benefit of a hard substance, and the other is to obtain the benefit of a slippery substance. Different approaches. I would certainly like to give Arthur's bearing a go but I suspect the use of Sapphire makes it expensive.
I'm no engineer , however from memory i did see some images of the Mike New bearing out of the housing and the spindle is bigger ( tried to find the photos )
If the mass of the bearing spindle is bigger in a bigger housing surly it will have a larger contact area , spindle to housing contact , this will add friction and will result in shorter run down time , Is run down time relevant ? as its only running time accuracy that counts , The 1210 has a fine direct drive motor that copes with the bigger bearing and different types of platters and can maintaining speed accuracy ( just my opinion as a numpty ) :)
This is all tricky stuff for amateurs like you and me. I think the larger area would therefore spread the weight and produce less friction, or at least less friction per given area, just say sq mm for example. As against this there would be, as you say a larger area. I don't know if they are equally relevant. It is interesting to compare the readings for the IanMac bearing with and without added oil. The oil seems to make for some drag and that is why the readings are for a shorter run-down time. That is ok by me if the rumble is actually less. The motor of the SL1200 copes with this bit of drag without issue. The most significant comparison is between the IanMac (without oil) and the stock bearing. What is shows to me is that there is less friction - it is as simple as that. In fact my subjective listening is that it is quieter.
This leads to the Audacity readings. I was hoping to get some objective idea of the noise floor of the rumble with the IanMac bearing compared with other options. Really I am just looking to find the quietest bearing.
I should say that is not necessarily the be-all and end-all. The MNB does seem to be good for extra weight of heavy platters, mats and and record pucks. There is an obvious disadvantage of extra weight, but likely outweighed (sorry) by the benefit of more inertia.
sq225917
09-04-2015, 23:04
The trouble with Audacity and recording noise from a silent groove is that the actual bearing noise is swamped by shit laptop and phonostage noise.
Better to perform a wavelet analysis of the recording to see the power distribution around the speed of Rotation. Unless you're more interested in how each bearing transmits other sources of noise from within the rest of the deck.
Re spin down speed. My deck is dead stop in less than five seconds and I'd put it's speed stability up against any deck at any price. And that's with a bearing that does better than -73db.
The trouble with Audacity and recording noise from a silent groove is that the actual bearing noise is swamped by shit laptop and phonostage noise.
These noises are kept to a minimum due in part to the PC being specifically designed for music playback, and in the case of the phonostage I have fed the MC output into the MM input to reduce its impact. But the more significant point is that all the bearings are measured with the same noise.
Better to perform a wavelet analysis of the recording to see the power distribution around the speed of Rotation. Unless you're more interested in how each bearing transmits other sources of noise from within the rest of the deck.
No idea what a "wavelet analysis" is. There will be other noises within the deck but that is part and parcel of how noisy each bearing is.
My deck is dead stop in less than five seconds and I'd put it's speed stability up against any deck at any price. And that's with a bearing that does better than -73db.
You have the best deck I am sure with the best speed stability. Can that information be extrapolated to the technics?
Comparing the spin down times of the Ianmac bearing and Stock bearing*: Is there anything other than friction that could explain that?
* not the MNB or IanMac in an oil bath.
ChrisKemp
10-04-2015, 07:46
Does it sound better than MNB playing music. That is all I want to know...
Sorry, Andrei, for me, all this pish with graphs is largely meaningless. I hate it when audio gets too bogged down by bloody measurements, especially in this case when those taken don't really have much relevance... :rolleyes:
At the end of the day, all that matters is if you've upgraded the bearing on your turntable, whether or not you can hear a significant sonic improvement, and if that improvement has resulted in a greater enjoyment of your favourite music, which I'm sure is the case with those who've fitted one of Ian's modded Technics bearings.
On a subjectivist-orientated forum such as this, that's all most folks are interested in reading :)
The above is certainly the case with those (including me) who've fitted a Mike New bearing, who are absolutely delighted with it as a result, and have no intention of changing it.
Marco.
Ah, I see that Chris has beaten me to it!
Yup, as they say, ditch the 'bull' and just cut to the chase.... :exactly:
Marco.
Who knows - The Funk bearing may sound better.
To be honest, I think it will be difficult to tell the difference between all of the bearings unless each is measured.
Clive197
10-04-2015, 09:31
Does it sound better than MNB playing music. That is all I want to know...
Good question. I would very much like to know the answer to that. Forget graphs and statistics because you can get any answer you want from them. Does one sound better than the other? If music be the food of love, play on.......... Oh heck I'm waffling.
ChrisKemp
10-04-2015, 09:49
Ah, I see that Chris has beaten me to it!
Yup, as they say, ditch the 'bull' and just cut to the chase.... :exactly:
Marco.
Yup. If I had chosen my amplifier on how it meassured in a lab, I would probably not have bought a 22 watt single ended triode. It may not meassure as well as a solid state, but boy does a class A SET amp sound great!!
:popcorn:
Oldpinkman
10-04-2015, 09:52
Good question. I would very much like to know the answer to that. Forget graphs and statistics because you can get any answer you want from them. Does one sound better than the other? If music be the food of love, play on.......... Oh heck I'm waffling.
It is a good question - but good answers are so hard. Tell you what - I'll tell you it sounds better than the MNB to me. How does that help you? Especially if (say) Macca says it doesnt sound as good to him. It just tells you different people like different stuff. Which is borne out by the fact that more than one turntable, arm, cartridge, amplifier, speaker exists and is chosen by people at any price point you can think of. Good for a chin-wag - not much help "telling you anything"
ChrisKemp
10-04-2015, 09:55
Can you please tell how you find it better than MNB?
It is a good question - but good answers are so hard. Tell you what - I'll tell you it sounds better than the MNB to me. How does that help you? Especially if (say) Macca says it doesnt sound as good to him. It just tells you different people like different stuff. Which is borne out by the fact that more than one turntable, arm, cartridge, amplifier, speaker exists and is chosen by people at any price point you can think of. Good for a chin-wag - not much help "telling you anything"
Yes, but that's what a forum is for: DISCUSSION, by like-minded enthusiasts, sharing their respective experiences. What else would you propose?
Of course, at the end of the day, someone posting that they think something is brilliant is ultimately going to be of most relevance to them. However, it could also be relevant to others, simply from the point of view of having their interest piqued in a particular product, by an enthusiastic and positive review.
That's exactly what's happening with my current eulogising of the RPi/IQ-Audio DAC. Folk have read what I've written about it, tried it themselves, used their own ears, and have found that they too think it's superb, which is the WHOLE POINT (and why forums such as this exist). Quoting largely meaningless measurements play no useful part in that process.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
10-04-2015, 10:18
Can you please tell how you find it better than MNB?
I'm afraid not Chris. And I am NOT saying that. It was hypothetical.
But in the same way I can't tell you how this weeks Camembert smells better than last weeks. And whatever I described you wouldnt be smelling it.
So if you want to know what Technics bearings sound like, you'll have to do as Marco says and use your own nostrils!
Who knows - The Funk bearing may sound better.
To be honest, I think it will be difficult to tell the difference between all of the bearings unless each is measured.
Who knows? It might be. However, the only way that most folk would be convinced by that would be doing a direct comparison with all other bearings available, on the same T/T and in the same system, and listening to the results, not by looking at a series of graphs on a computer screen.
Thing is, how practical or even possible do you think that would be to do? The reality is that one just has to take a punt on buying whichever bearing, in our considered opinion, 'ticks the right boxes' (or what we can afford), and then live with our choice and just enjoy the music! :)
Marco.
ChrisKemp
10-04-2015, 10:30
I'm afraid not Chris. And I am NOT saying that. It was hypothetical.
But in the same way I can't tell you how this weeks Camembert smells better than last weeks. And whatever I described you wouldnt be smelling it.
So if you want to know what Technics bearings sound like, you'll have to do as Marco says and use your own nostrils!
I get you:) I thought you had directly compared the two bearings. Well, as many say; it's great that we can have several alternative bearings to chose from. That way the 1200/1210 will keep on living and they who are not willing to pay the amount for a Mike New bearing have other alternatives. Designwise I would still call MNB the high end of Technics bearings and the other an affordable upgrade from the standard:) My Mike New Bearing is staying unless the Funk bearing proves alot better.
Well, as many say; it's great that we can have several alternative bearings to chose from. That way the 1200/1210 will keep on living and they who are not willing to pay the amount for a Mike New bearing have other alternatives.
Spot on, Chris!
And that is precisely why AoS will always give its full support to BOTH Ian and Mike New. The important thing here is to keep the modded Technics ALIVE, and thus provide audio enthusiasts and music lovers, who value getting the biggest 'bang for their buck,' the ability to have that with a turntable which is very able to deliver on that principle.
For that reason, AoS will always do whatever it can to ensure that the modded Technics T/T (like Ariston) goes on and on and on.........
:exactly:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
10-04-2015, 10:49
Regarding a boring measurement I have the platter and bearing for Cagey on a filing cabinet to measure the spin time. Not terribly precise because I have to spin by hand fast, and wait for it to slow to the point where I get one revolution every 2 seconds (timed on an iphone) and then set the timer until it halts. Average of 3 was 72 seconds from 33rpm (estimated)
Of course, that is a strata platter with bonded achromat on it - no LP. I'm sure Cagey can run some better tests, including listening ones when I get it out to him
I think it will be difficult to tell the difference between all of the bearings unless each is measured.
Which leads directly to the opinion that I'm starting to form which is that (although there may indeed be measurable differences in the amount of noise produced by each bearing) the difference in the amount of noise that can actually reach the record groove and subsequently become audible is in fact........none.
Spot on, Chris!
And that is precisely why AoS will always give its full support to BOTH Ian and Mike New. The important thing here is to keep the modded Technics ALIVE, and thus provide audio enthusiasts and music lovers, who value getting the biggest 'bang for their buck,' the ability to have that with a turntable which is very able to deliver on that principle.
For that reason, AoS will always do whatever it can to ensure that the modded Technics T/T (like Ariston) goes on and on and on.........
:exactly:
Marco.
You forgot The Funk Firm from that list. :)
Hopefully, Richard will have space to bring the bits down on his next trip.
All I can do then is give you my honest opinion of which bearing I prefer.
I will only be able to compare the Mk1 and Mk2 Funk platters as I don't have an ETP.
If I do prefer the Spin bearing, I may still end up keeping the Mike New, as the additional cost of buying another high quality bearing may not be economically sound, unless someone wants a Mike New bearing that's already been run in. It's a lovely piece of engineering, so I would be happy to have it sat on my desk.
Anyway, what ever happens, I will post my thoughts on the Funk products after I have had a chance for a proper play. Keep your eyes posted on the classifieds. :eyebrows:
Oldpinkman
10-04-2015, 11:51
Which leads directly to the opinion that I'm starting to form which is that (although there may indeed be measurable differences in the amount of noise produced by each bearing) the difference in the amount of noise that can actually reach the record groove and subsequently become audible is in fact........none.
What you "hear" from a final bearing in a real turntable will indeed be much more complex than any one measurement or combination of measurements will tell you. It is probably fair that you want good measurements rather than poor ones, but in themselves measurements will tell you nothing. Beyond the friction / noise issues of rumble - which I think Andrei is trying to measure, and which to some extent the "spin test" measure, you have stabilty issues, which will contribute to wow and flutter. You also have energy transmission issues. The unwanted energy from the stylus, will be transmitted much more efficiently across a hard interface than a soft one, which would damp and/or reflect some of that energy. Of course, depending on your turntable design, you may or may not want to transfer energy away from the platter efficiently (the Pink Triangle does want to - it disperses it in the aerolam subchassis).
But good measurements never hurt. The spin (or rather, the version used in the Funk SDG) measured off the chart - as the best the magazine had ever tested. So it will be interesting to hear what if any difference Cagey thinks it makes to a real Technics SL1200.
You forgot The Funk Firm from that list. :)
Lol, well you can add them to the list, as I like Arthur and have always believed in the efficacy of his designs. I also admire his continual ability to 'think outside the box' in away most other audio inventors/designers seem incapable of.
However, quite understandably Arthur is more focussed on other things (which pay the bills), rather than simply what improves the sonic performance of an SL-1200/1210, which is why Funk stuff won't always automatically come to mind whenever the subject of modded Techies is discussed on AoS, and because Arthur (again understandably) doesn't have time to devote to becoming an integral part of the AoS community, in the way of Mike New or Ian.
If that changes, and if more members here start using Funk products, then they'll automatically receive more prominence on the forum. It's as simple as that.
Hopefully, Richard will have space to bring the bits down on his next trip.
All I can do then is give you my honest opinion of which bearing I prefer.
I will only be able to compare the Mk1 and Mk2 Funk platters as I don't have an ETP.
If I do prefer the Spin bearing, I may still end up keeping the Mike New, as the additional cost of buying another high quality bearing may not be economically sound, unless someone wants a Mike New bearing that's already been run in. It's a lovely piece of engineering, so I would be happy to have it sat on my desk.
Anyway, what ever happens, I will post my thoughts on the Funk products after I have had a chance for a proper play...
Sounds good, and I look forward to reading all about it.
For me (and AoS), ALL discussion involving the judicious modifying of the Technics is most welcomed, for reasons previously outlined. Furthermore, no single manufacturer's products (or manufacturer) will ever be given preferential treatment, as AoS is not 'married' to remaining 'loyal' towards the best interests of any particular trader or manufacturer.
As far as we're concerned, the more choice folk have of using quality kit, the better it is - no matter WHO makes it!! :exactly:
Marco.
I think it's great that there is so much choice available.
The bearing is a classic example, with many different choices at different price levels.
rmsshipbroker
10-04-2015, 14:26
Which leads directly to the opinion that I'm starting to form which is that (although there may indeed be measurable differences in the amount of noise produced by each bearing) the difference in the amount of noise that can actually reach the record groove and subsequently become audible is in fact........none.
I'd have to disagree with this. I've just fitted an Ianmac bearing in place of an admittedly older, more worn bearing and it very clearly reduced the rumble inherent in my copy of Hollie Cook's Twice from very intrusive to much reduced and bearable.
There are lots of other benefits as well, in all aspects of reproduction, e.g. low level detail, power and snap.
Some interesting topics being raised.
I'm a big fan of seeing is believing. I dont just like "ears" on their own.
I'm off to Yorkshire for a week but when I get back I will find the time to repeat my measurements on a std bearing and one of my modded units. These will be photographed and i'll get them onto the forum together with an overview of what I interpret I'd hear from the electronic data.
Clive197
10-04-2015, 17:00
It is a good question - but good answers are so hard. Tell you what - I'll tell you it sounds better than the MNB to me. How does that help you? Especially if (say) Macca says it doesnt sound as good to him. It just tells you different people like different stuff. Which is borne out by the fact that more than one turntable, arm, cartridge, amplifier, speaker exists and is chosen by people at any price point you can think of. Good for a chin-wag - not much help "telling you anything"
If you take that at face level, then there is no point in this forum as everybody would have different opinions on what they hear, and I thought I was waffling.
I'm a big fan of seeing is believing. I dont just like "ears" on their own.
Yeah, but surely 'hearing is believing' is ultimately what's most important? :)
Enjoy your break in Yorkshire - it's a lovely part of the world!
Marco.
No doubt hearing is believing but how good are each individuals ears, let alone our different systems and listeningconditions etc.etc.
I have always recommended an ear syringe as the first step in any upgrade !!
anyway I'm going off topic
I promised some photos of actual bearing performance measured as a noise level over the spectrum 20 hz to 20Khz.
Apologies I cant go beyond 20K with my current measuring software.
These are RELATIVE measurements showing Technics Bearing performance followed by the Modded Bearing performance.
My system is set as it is for everyday use. I'm using a standard platter with a non slip silicone mesh between the platter and the rubber record rest mat. Arm is standard with a KAB style damper fitted.
I placed the measuring gear at the line out of my Phono amp. The only changes made were the physical ones associated with a bearing change.
The test signals used for both measurements were from Hi Fi Sound test record HFS69
Side2 Test 5 1Khz test tone followed by an unmodulated groove.
First 2 pictures will show the unmodulated grove Technics followed by Ianmac.
The second 2 picture show the 1Khz test tone Technics followed by Ianmac.
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/Dscf6333c.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/Dscf6333c.jpg.html)
The relevant point of interest are 0-100 hz -68 db:500hz -82db:1Kh -89db: 3khz-92db:10Khz -106
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/Dscf6330c.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/Dscf6330c.jpg.html)
The same reference points 0-100hz -72db:500hz -96db: 1Khz-97db :3Khz -97db:10Khz -106db
The modified bearing shows clear improvements up to 3khz around 7 db
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/DSCF6332.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/DSCF6332.jpg.html)
0-500hz -58db:
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/Dscf6329c.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/Dscf6329c.jpg.html)
0-500hz -70db:
An improvement of around 12db.
My earlier posts indicated a conservative improvement of 6db
The Used echnics bearing was in good condition. The Ianmac bearing was assembled yesterday from a New Technics Donor bearing for one of our memebers. It will improve as it runs in.
While I have been struggling to beat the automatic timeout for posting messages Marco has asked if I can better explain how I interpret the data.
Basically you want the mechanical improvements made to the bearing to result in as low a noise level as possible. ie the higher the -db (Minus db)figure.
e.g. -100db is better than -94 db.
For those who dont like db's (including myself) a - 6db improvement in noise equates to a halfing of the amplitude of the noise signal, In our case this is the unwanted noise emanating from the bearing and its structure.
This reduction in noise will improve the signal to noise ratio of your phono pre output.
This will improve resolution (detail) and stereo image. And from the graph shapes Low frequency performance particularly below 500hz should improve.
Equally tweaks made to platters and arms etc can be measured relatively easily in the DIY environment if you have the appropriate test signals on a record.
I must mention again that I struggle to come to terms with how someone can use only their ears to evaluate tweaks made equipment particularly record decks!
The second test signal I used with the 1Khz peak in the graph shows to me I have an issue somewhere with cartridge or arm due to the spikes following the 1khz peak at 2khz 3khz 4khz etc. These indicate harmonics of 1Khz and from a sine wave test signal I feel they are on the high side. My ears could not have told me that. ( personal opinion)
Ian
Pro manufacturers will have measuring equipment an order above what we can access.
Cheers, Ian, but for the non-technical amongst us, for which the above may as well be hieroglyphics, what are the measurements supposed to be showing (in terms of how do the graphs indicate superior sonic performance with your bearing)? :)
Marco.
Marco, your post crossed my fighting with the system logging me out as i posted a long post.
I appreciate some members will turn off as soon as the see techspeak.
I always try to keep things simple but there are times when its difficult
On the positive side it may encourage some to delve just a little deeper into the technical side of their hobby.
I hope I have answered your question in my post .
If not let me know and I'll try again
Ian
Excellent, Ian. Nicely explained, mate. That's perfect :thumbsup:
Marco.
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/Dscf6329c.jpg
What's causing the increase in HF noise compared to the standard bearing?
It doesn't matter, as it is down over 17dB.
Possibly, it may not matter but I'd still want to understand why there is an increase...
Neal,
there is nothing wrong with the graph of the modded bearing, the problem lies with that associated with the Technics. A build up of debris on my stylus was the culprit, killing the HF response
I noticed this, cleaned it, and forgot to do a re run. I had stored the file on my PC
I noted this again when I photographed the PC display this morning and to do a re run involved yet another change of bearing.
Given the area of interest is below 1Khz I used the first run.
In retrospect I agree I should have pointed this out on the graph. Thank you for raising it.
In general the improvements tend to fall at the lower end of the audio range ie below 3Khz. indicating perhaps the weakness in the structure of the original bearing, rather than any issue with the actual rotational parts.
Ian
PaulStewart
25-04-2015, 19:35
Hi Ian,
Would you know if your mod can be done to the Mk1 SL120 bearing, very interested if so. I'm not sure if it's a common part
Paul,
Regret I have no info on the SL120 bearing.
Anyone know if there are similarities ?
Ian
303jewels
19-08-2015, 19:27
Good to see some measurements !! - thanks for putting those up Ian....... Wish other bearing engineers would put some measurements up too ! PM sent
Paul, the Technics manual for the SL120 on Vinylengine is for both "SL-1200" and "SL-120" http://www.vinylengine.com/library/technics/sl-120.shtml
I just received one of Ian's modified bearings in the mail today. Curious to see what I could measure, I did a few spindown measurements. I know, these won't tell the whole story, but they can at least begin to reveal any differences in drag/friction.
With the original bearing that I recently cleaned and lubed (plus the original thick rubber mat), the average of six runs was 19.99s.
With Ian's modified bearing in place, the average of six runs is 28.74s.
That works out to nearly 44% less drag/friction! I think this is a pretty dramatic reduction...
I need to listen for a little while to see what sonic differences present themselves, but this is off to a promising start.
Spectral Morn
21-10-2015, 23:26
I just received one of Ian's modified bearings in the mail today. Curious to see what I could measure, I did a few spindown measurements. I know, these won't tell the whole story, but they can at least begin to reveal any differences in drag/friction.
With the original bearing that I recently cleaned and lubed (plus the original thick rubber mat), the average of six runs was 19.99s.
With Ian's modified bearing in place, the average of six runs is 28.74s.
That works out to nearly 44% less drag/friction! I think this is a pretty dramatic reduction...
I need to listen for a little while to see what sonic differences present themselves, but this is off to a promising start.
Interesting.
Regards Neil
sq225917
22-10-2015, 12:15
There's an assumption being made that friction must equate to noise, that's not the case, you can use thicker oil to increase drag but it has no effect on noise.
What's important is lowest noise and most linear drag. Bearing run down time tells you nothing about any quality of the deck that you can hear.
Finally got round to fitting my IanMac bearing this week (some 6months later! :lol: )
Like others i've found initial results of the fairly un-scientific spindown tests to be much better than the stock techie bearing.
Before (stock bearing) 18secs
After (ianmac bearing) 24secs
So even to my eyes that has to suggest be an improvement on overall bearing friction.
Now, although i'm not the most erudite at describing these things, the sonic difference does appear to be noticeable although subtle - not blow your socks off WOW, but general noisefloor on quieter tracks is noticeably reduced, probably to the level of now hilighting limitations of the Ortofon Bronze cart i'm running (i describe the sound i hear as "stylus drag" between tracks). Yet to try with the Red to compare.
But overall am very happy with the improvement results for a modest outlay on a limited budget, so thanks Ian!
Am sure as things progress and it gets run-in and used more, it should get sweeter.
Chris.
Simon: Clearly, I'm not well versed in tribology (in the material science perspective as it applies to bearings :eyebrows:) and viscosity. I just find these measured differences to be rather large in magnitude for a "relatively small" design change. Given that Ian's design starts with an original bearing, the only realistic difference (that I am aware of and in the context of friction/drag) is the thrust pad. The overall increase in spin time coupled with reduced noise measurements when compared to the original that are presented in another thread are a great place to start.
Just sharing some of my joy...
I think the question of bearing drag is an interesting one, particularly with regard to how it interacts with the drive system; and the Technics is a particularly interesting case as the drive is servo controlled - actively making speed compensation as it plays. As such the level of drag in the bearing is bound to have an impact. In a pure feedback loop system the speed error is sensed and a correction is made, the assumption is that this correction occurs with zero delay. For this reason platter inertia is low. Increasing platter mass/Inertia and/or drag in the bearing will mean that error correction is applied in a different time frame than initially anticipated. This may be a good thing or it may not, but it will certainly have some impact.
It is possible to reduce the friction in a std technics bearing.
The mods done allow the bearing to run in oil or an equivalent synthetic lubricant.
I agree with YNWaN there is an impact on the servo performance which should be measurable electronically by looking at the feedback signal. The lower the bearing friction the easier the load on the servo and motor but one has to also look at the servo time constant.
Some people have already tweaked the technics servo to optimise performance with their particular choice of bearing /platter /mat etc.
Personally I think the servo is an excellent design for its year and a credit to the designer.
I've just fitted some dynamat to base of the IanMac bearing. It was already quieter than my stock bearing and my Mike New bearing, but this dropped the noise a tad more. I simply cut a strip about 15 mm thick and wrapped it round the base of the bearing. This was not possible with the original bearing because it is open.
What's happened to your avatar, Andrei? :)
Marco.
ChrisKemp
12-12-2015, 08:03
I hear no noise from my MN bearing together with the ETP platter and the Analogue (Nagaoka) Crystal mat:cool:
sq225917
12-12-2015, 09:49
Simon: Clearly, I'm not well versed in tribology (in the material science perspective as it applies to bearings :eyebrows:) and viscosity. I just find these measured differences to be rather large in magnitude for a "relatively small" design change. Given that Ian's design starts with an original bearing, the only realistic difference (that I am aware of and in the context of friction/drag) is the thrust pad. The overall increase in spin time coupled with reduced noise measurements when compared to the original that are presented in another thread are a great place to start.
Eric, assuming a close tolerance at the bottom the bearing, just tapering the end of the shaft away from the sidewall or any other similar introduction of a gap would increase spin down time. It's the noise that counts.
I'd be most interested in 10hz to 2-300 hz, anything above that really has nothing to do with the bearing in a DD deck, its just system noise. There's notionally little in a Technics vibrating more than a few orders of harmonic over the transformers.
Sounds like a good fix, the results look interesting and the noise drop significant.
Mike_New
12-12-2015, 10:10
There's an assumption being made that friction must equate to noise, that's not the case, you can use thicker oil to increase drag but it has no effect on noise.
What's important is lowest noise and most linear drag. Bearing run down time tells you nothing about any quality of the deck that you can hear.
hi Simon,
You are absolutely correct, but trying to explaining that to the technically uninformed is like trying to explain the "theory of relativity" to a pie shop owner.
I hear no noise from my MN bearing together with the ETP platter and the Analogue (Nagaoka) Crystal mat:cool:
When you write that you don't 'hear' any noise I'm curious as to how you think any noise you could 'hear' would manifest itself? If you were able to hear the bearing directly making noise through the speakers there really would be something seriously wrong.
Wakefield Turntables
12-12-2015, 18:30
:sofa: Dave Cawley over on the The Audio Standard claims to have measured "noise" and "drag" (however you want to define them) in a MN bearing.
My previous comment isn't specifically aimed at the MN bearing. Bearing noise is measurable as is bearing drag; however, the measurement on its own is only part of the story. The specific level of drag is only relevant when seen within the context of the drive system as a whole. Bearing noise is another matter and lower is better. Such noise is not directly audible though, or it shouldn't be, it manifests as a fine obscuring of very low level detail and can only really be heard when its presence is removed.
As far as I'm aware DC hasn't described his measurement procedure, the results of the measurement or event drawn any conclusions - so it all seems a bit mute.
Wakefield Turntables
12-12-2015, 19:31
My previous comment isn't specifically aimed at the MN bearing. Bearing noise is measurable as is bearing drag; however, the measurement on its own is only part of the story. The specific level of drag is only relevant when seen within the context of the drive system as a whole. Bearing noise is another matter and lower is better. Such noise is not directly audible though, or it shouldn't be, it manifests as a fine obscuring of very low level detail and can only really be heard when its presence is removed.
As far as I'm aware DC hasn't described his measurement procedure, the results of the measurement or event drawn any conclusions - so it all seems a bit mute.
I personally can't see why he'd mention it and then not elaborate on the measuring procedure.
Because the measurements are good, so he's got nothing to slag off! Simples ;)
Marco.
I'm not really sure what a bearing drag measurement would prove considering the wide range of bearing drag in the stock bearing. The bearing in my main deck (manufactured in late 2006) has a ton more drag than some of the 1200s from the 80s and 90s I've picked up on Craigslist and fixed up for friends getting into vinyl.
I've just fitted some dynamat to base of the IanMac bearing. It was already quieter than my stock bearing and my Mike New bearing, but this dropped the noise a tad more. I simply cut a strip about 15 mm thick and wrapped it round the base of the bearing. This was not possible with the original bearing because it is open.
Very interesting. I suppose every little bit helps.
sq225917
01-01-2016, 16:45
Drag, tells you nothing, Cawley knows that. But he's not one to let a half truth get in the way of him bad mouthing someone.
I'm intrigued to see how he'd measure 'drag'. Or rather I'm not in the least bit interested in how 'he' does anything.
Wakefield Turntables
01-01-2016, 17:29
At the end of the day, who gives a F**K? It's how the bloody things sounds that matters. The science behind drag, viscosity, coefficient of friction yada yada yada is not difficult to understand. All I'd be interested in doing would be comparing the bearings and seeing which sounded best. The more I get into HiFi the more I realise that an awful lot of $#!t is published and really the only thing that matters is enjoying that vinyl spinning on your deck.
Hear, hear! :clap:
Getting bogged down in (largely) meaningless technicalities rarely serves to increase one's enjoyment in music, which is surely the end goal of this hobby?
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
02-01-2016, 18:08
I've turned my back on the techical aspect of "hi-fi" don't get me wrong i still like reading about such things but I'm now more into collecting and learning about vinyl, modding old retro gear and researching rare and obscure record lables.
Sounds like WAY more fun to me, and much more useful to an end user of equipment, than analysing the readout on an oscilloscope! ;)
Marco.
At the end of the day, who gives a F**K? It's how the bloody things sounds that matters. The science behind drag, viscosity, coefficient of friction yada yada yada is not difficult to understand. All I'd be interested in doing would be comparing the bearings and seeing which sounded best. The more I get into HiFi the more I realise that an awful lot of $#!t is published and really the only thing that matters is enjoying that vinyl spinning on your deck.
I'll drink to that :cool:
A couple of weeks ago I received what I believe is one of the last few IanMac Bearings. First I want to say the transaction went very smoothly and Ian was a pleasure to deal with. On to the meat of it then. I've never listened to a deck with one of the more spoken about bearings so I can't compare but the IanMack part is a subtle but definite improvement over the stock bearing. The music sounds a bit smoother a bit more of an effortless quality to it. I haven't been able to listen and evaluate as mush as I would habe liked to because, well... life :) , but I like what I'm hearing so far :cool:
Ian :cheers:
I think I got his last one on the way to me I am sitting by the door waiting for the postman to arrive:):):):):):):)
I think you'll like it. My only regret is that I should have gotten one sooner :D
At the end of the day, who gives a F**K? It's how the bloody things sounds that matters. The science behind drag, viscosity, coefficient of friction yada yada yada is not difficult to understand. All I'd be interested in doing would be comparing the bearings and seeing which sounded best. The more I get into HiFi the more I realise that an awful lot of $#!t is published and really the only thing that matters is enjoying that vinyl spinning on your deck.
Do you choose your car that way: ignore all reviews and test drive every model on the market?
However I do agree with your last sentence, and that includes what gets 'published' here.
Rickey, nice to read all went well. Given a new technics bearing was used as the donor it will improve further as it runs in.
Diviy, your bearing should be with you today at the latest( posted 1st class on Monday)
I have had more enquiries about modifying bearings.
As you all know I am not a trader or dealer but a hobbyist building Hi Fi and steam locos. (qualified in Electronics and Mechanical engineering)
This project started with the encouragement of members of this forum and the objective was to produce a bearing at a reasonable cost and I think this has been achieved.
I'll have to consider whether I should look at modifying any more.
To keep the costs down a batch production run would be need minimum 5 ideally 10, based on my making a qty purchase of new donor bearings and engineering materials from suppliers. This would mean,for me as an individual, a large financial outlay.
If anyone is interested in a modified bearing drop me a pm so I can evaluate the viability of continuing the project.
Ianmac
Guys, IanMac's bearings are an improvement over the stock Techie bearing. If you are on a limited budget, it is a good alternative to the more expensive bearings out there. Hopefully, there will be enough interest to get Ian to whip up another batch of bearings. I'm very glad I got mine.
I can't fault his service all done in 7 days only fitted tonignt as I have been away in the camper .
Ian what stock material do you need I might be able to help.
I have fitted my bearing run it for 24 hours played original pressing of Pink Floyd`s DSOTM sounded good as normal then I remembered I haven`t cleaned it with the moth RCM so will replay tomorrow ,I then played heaven and hell sounded really good currently got Led Zeppelin 11 playing draw dropping the vocals are perfect bass is so solid stereo separation is stunning the organs make my spine tingle teh mid tones just melt together am I a happy bunny OH YES
All this from just changing the bearing the deck has a few mod`s and this bearing just seems to bring it all together Ianmac you are a star .
Packgrog
22-09-2016, 19:08
As it seems that Jim Howard (Applied Fidelity) passed away last week (http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/113/1138583.html), this could well be the only bearing improvement option remaining under $500 USD. I didn't even know about this project until today. Having wondered why I couldn't get a hold of Jim over the past month, and discovering the linked post, I started looking for alternatives and found this. I largely do archiving to digital, and could certainly provide before and after audio samples if it would help drum up more interest.
As you can see from my earlier post I have been debating whether to make another batch of bearings.
There has been enough interest and I will now research the current cost of materials.
I will contact those who have already shown an interest via PM.
If anyone else is interested please drop me a PM with your email address and i'll take it from there.
Ian
Packgrog
23-09-2016, 13:21
I'll be clear here: I would hope/expect Mike's product to be better overall. As Marco inferred, however, I cannot afford a $520 USD mod at this time, particularly with the uncertainty over whether even the best bearing could make the Technics sound good enough to my ear. If a lesser mod can provide some of the improvement that I'm hoping for at a price that won't alarm my wife, then I'd rather try that out. Plus, I'm all about the cooperative learning process, so this interests me from that perspective as well.
Thanks for all the feedback.
A second batch of bearings will be available
I have received some new Technics Bearings today to avoid people sending me new bearings and the subsequent postal costs.
The remaining materials needed will be with me next week.
I will be offering a small mod to the next batch in the form of a small resevoir at the top of the bearing so oil can be guaranteed to be above the vent hole and the complete bearing surface immersed in an lubricant film. This will hold a small amount of lubricant and let one run maintenance free.
I have been running this for the last six months on my own deck and will post a photo a soon as I have my deck apart or a new bearing made.
Ian
Jeff Wood
27-09-2016, 16:42
Brilliant, looking forward to getting one :)
Thanks for all the feedback.
A second batch of bearings will be available
I have received some new Technics Bearings today to avoid people sending me new bearings and the subsequent postal costs.
The remaining materials needed will be with me next week.
I will be offering a small mod to the next batch in the form of a small resevoir at the top of the bearing so oil can be guaranteed to be above the vent hole and the complete bearing surface immersed in an lubricant film. This will hold a small amount of lubricant and let one run maintenance free.
I have been running this for the last six months on my own deck and will post a photo a soon as I have my deck apart or a new bearing made.
Ian
I'm in the same boat as Packgrog. My budget simply couldn't cover the cost of Mikes bearing along with the other upgrades I've planned. If I had the $$, that's the route I'd have gone. However, I'm completely satisfied with the Ianmac bearing. It's a great bang-for-the buck upgrade. My only regret is that I didn't get one sooner :cool:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j6kq42exgy48zxy/IMG_2454.JPG?dl=0 should get you to a photo of the bearing with a resevoir fitted.
I'm still waiting on some materials, due today, but as yet not here, very frustrating. I tried to buy the brass as close as I could to the required size to keep costs down. Nothing worse than having to buy oversize and machine down, time wasted and a lot of worthless cuttings on the floor.
I m' looking at maintaining a price for a modified bearing at £85.
Ill charge the resevoir fitting as an extra as some may not want it. Its a time consuming exercise due to the tolerance of the moulding on the technics bearings and the tubular tub has to be machined from the solid. aiming at £15.
Give I have a vent hole from the top of the bearing to the inner base tub, with oil above the vent we will have the complete bearing surface immersed in oil. The Sintered bronze used by Technics is "porous" and holds oil for long periods but if it is not serviced regulary it "dries out" and wear occurs. I'm in the camp where any bearing surface must benefit from good lubrication. Ive had the resevoir fitted to my deck for some months. The downside--remember its there if you move the deck. Its not a lot of oil but it can make a mess.
Bottom line
A new bearing can be modified for £85 + a donor bearing or + £25 with me getting bearings. on top of that will be post/ packing which will vary
Add £15 if one wants an oil resevoir.
I hope we are still meeting the target of keeping this an affordable upgrade.
Ian
Jeff Wood
06-10-2016, 15:40
Hi Ian,
I'm fine with those prices, and I'll have the reservoir option please.
Many thanks, I appreciate your efforts :)
Packgrog
06-10-2016, 15:50
@Jeff if you can do some before and after digital recordings (ie: bearing swap only) it would be a huge help. I'm on the fence purely due to doubts that further investment in the Technics will get me close enough to my TecnoDec to be worth the money for me, and finances just got even tighter again preventing me from blind buy experimentation, but I really would appreciate being able to hear the difference.
I did publish photos of the of the noise output with the standard and modified bearing. I would appreciate some before and after Digital recordings, I used to use software called Audio Diff Maker that generated the difference signal between two digital input signals.
One point I forgot to mention is that I have made a jig that allows me to retrofit a resevoir onto an already modified bearing.
Ian
Ian can I order the oil reservoir to go with the bearing I had off you
Regards Gerry
Gerry
Ill sort it out for you.
Give me a little time. Ive been thinking a bit more about retrofit and want to make a tube that will fit on top on an existing bearing. It could be fixed in position with a little epoxy resin (araldite) so its a simple DIY and saves posting bearings around the country.
My issue is the different size tolerance between the various generations of the technics bearings.
If you could DIY, I could make a few tubes of slightly different sizes and let you pick the best fit. You can return the unused tubes or onpass to the next person who wants to DIY update
Let me know if you are happy to DIY
Ian
cheers Ian thats good with me :)
The next batch of bearings are almost ready for posting
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2457.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2457.jpg.html)
Ill contact those involved
Ian
Michielius
14-10-2016, 12:44
Me like! Looking forward to it! :)
Jeff Wood
14-10-2016, 12:45
me too :)
Ooo, I'd like to add a oil reserve to my bearing.
Wrackandruin
15-10-2016, 12:07
Hi all,
I contacted Ian yesterday to see if he could sort me out a bearing. Good news, he has machined parts to mod 6 more bearings.
He can sort out new donor bearings for us.
If you're interested please let him know.
Cheers,
Al
Jeff Wood
16-10-2016, 22:38
Ian, if its not a daft question, where do you buy sae 5 oil ?
Cant see any online, apart from some bicycle fork oil that's sae5, would that do ?
http://www.tweekscycles.com/Product.do?method=view&n=3336&g=588818&p=588902&d=124&c=4&l=2&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Base&utm_campaign=Lubricants%20&%20Cleaning&gclid=CL2K3siw4M8CFeUp0wodYlIOQg
That will do fine
I used to restore old BMW motorcycles and I have SAE5 from that hobby. It also is used as a transmission fluid in automatic gearboxes
There are also silicon fluids that are very thin which are worth experimenting with, Im using that at the moment.
Bear in mind the Technics is a servo controlled direct drive TT and should be less sensitive to oils than some of the Belt Driven types and we are now running the bearing shaft totally immersed in oil so the friction will be reduced from the original.
If I had the time I suppose one could evaluate further by looking at the servo error signal with different oils.
Have you tried a PTFE based oil?
Im using a silicon type oil at the moment. I bought two different grades (CST) and mixed to get what I wanted.
Do you have any recommended PTFE based oils we could try
I am not sure what grade it is, but my Funk Firm Spin bearing is currently filled with the Audio Origami PTFE oil.
Have you thought about trying lithium grease?
The bearing mod is designed for a Lubricant that will gravitate up/ down the bearing. The resevoir and the Vent hole and the actual bearing are forming a "U" tube and the oil will balance at the top of the "U"
I have lithium grease, used to use it on BMW driveshaft splines.
Jeff Wood
18-10-2016, 16:49
My one arrived this morning but the postman waited until I took the dog out before delivering it, but i'll have it tomorrow. Thanks Ian.
Jeff Wood
24-10-2016, 13:22
well my Ianmac bearing is now in my deck and spinning away nicely..
First of all I've got to say that Ian's engineering skills are amazing, really excellent quality.
It's probably too early to judge the sound difference as its a brand new bearing so needs to run in.
But saying that, if I'm not mistaken I'd say that the Bass is tighter and more accurate, taken away some woolyness.
Vocals seem a bit more forward in the mix.
At the moment I'm thinking its possibly made it a bit too clinical for me, but as I say I need to give it time to run in..
I'd certainly be interested to hear what changes other users have found ??
Michielius
24-10-2016, 19:09
I've received the bearing this weekend and indeed, it's beautifully machined! Very nice work. Yesterday I cleaned it from the supplied oil and reoiled it.
Just a few hours ago I installed the bearing and let it run for an hour or two. After that I couldn't resist to take an initial listen :) First impressions are: background is more quiet, more 'black' so to speak, soundstage had opened up a bit and instruments seem to have better definition. Bass is indeed tighter. Just as Jeff put it, it has taken away some woolyness. Can't say I feel it has become clinical, more like "opened up".
Well, that's it for the moment. Now let's give it time to run in... :)
Jeff Wood
24-10-2016, 19:34
Forget I said "clinical", Im not the best at describing sound :)
Its sounding good, Im pleased with the improvement.
And its a much better design than the original.
I think Ian is going to be a busy man !
well my Ianmac bearing is now in my deck and spinning away nicely..
First of all I've got to say that Ian's engineering skills are amazing, really excellent quality.
I'm beginning to wish I had taken a few pics before I installed mine :) I do concur with the improvements you've heard. I'm a very happy camper with mine. Ian, :youtheman:
Jeff Wood
25-10-2016, 14:56
Ive noticed a massive change now its run in a bit, bass is much more controlled, definitely a more lively presentation, more enjoyable to listen to to.
I would never never have believed that a bearing change would make this kind of difference to be honest.
I think for the price Ian has been charging it's a no brainer to buy one.
Pity Ian didn't have this bearing available 30 years ago, he'd be a millionaire !, every club and every DJ in the world would one in their Technics,,,,
Packgrog
25-10-2016, 15:24
Anyone able to provide stock vs. mod bearing recordings to help those of us struggling with indecision and financial concerns? Some actual evidence of the changes would be a tremendous help.
Jeff Wood
25-10-2016, 17:24
just buy one :)
I'm sure in the unlikely event you didn't like it, you could easily sell it on..
Packgrog
26-10-2016, 16:23
Just to be clear that I'm not just being lazy, cheap, and asking for something that I would not be willing to do myself if funds allowed, here's a thread where I shared matching recordings from both my Technics and TecnoDec using the same arm and cartridge: http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/that-technics-sound.736730/
My goal is to close the sound quality gap between the two decks. I've done far too much blind-buy gear experimentation over the years, and also got hit with an unusually expensive couple of months (new mattress and bed frame, new tires, wedding anniversary expenses, wife changing jobs and drastically reducing our income, etc.). So as reasonably priced as Ian's bearing is, especially given the current exchange rates, I'm wary of straining my finances further on this experiment without some evidence of what it can do in practice.
Packgrog
27-10-2016, 14:59
And now a $1000 plumbing bill, with the spectre of another $1000+ in a few months. Yeah, "just buy one" doesn't really work right now. :( I'd gladly help with listening tests, audio file editing, whatever, but funds are definitely NOT available for a while. God dammit.
And now a $1000 plumbing bill, with the spectre of another $1000+ in a few months. Yeah, "just buy one" doesn't really work right now. :( I'd gladly help with listening tests, audio file editing, whatever, but funds are definitely NOT available for a while. God dammit.
Crikey mate, I hope you get plenty of time to enjoy what you've already got so you can keep your sanity intact.
If your Technodec sounds better, just enjoy that for now.
Zoidburg
28-10-2016, 14:09
I've asked Ian to supply me with one from his next batch of them, I just hope a few others sign up soon!
Hello, I'm new here and joined with the primary purpose of posting in this thread. I'm very interested in purchasing one of these bearings. Is there a site where I can purchase this or how does one go about buying one? Thanks
Hello, I'm new here and joined with the primary purpose of posting in this thread. I'm very interested in purchasing one of these bearings. Is there a site where I can purchase this or how does one go about buying one? Thanks
Just PM Ian. The bearing he modified for me was very well done and my transaction with him went very smoothly.
Intend to buy more new bearings this week and will do a run of 6 more
Ian
If they aren't all already spoken for, please count me in for one with the oil reservoir. Thanks!
Zoidburg
01-11-2016, 08:10
I've just had an email from Ian to confirm I am on the next run.:eyebrows::)
Is it worth having the additional oil reservoir as well?
With the std bearing filled with oil, the oil can only go to the top of the vent hole.
The lubrication inside the bearing shaft will follow the height of the oil in the vent hole, like a "U" tube formed by the shaft bore /bearing clearance and the vent hole diameter. Oil height will be checked as required by the user.
The reservoir tub sits above the vent hole and the top of the technics bronze bearing so the "U" tube" is now further up the shaft and both sides of the "U" submersed in oil from the supply held in the reservoir. With the additional capacity of the tub, the complete bearing will be in constant lubrication for very long periods.
Hope this helps
Ian
Michielius
02-11-2016, 19:40
So, I've got the bearing installed for about a week now. I've let it run in for approx. 60 hours and I think it's time for me to share my findings. These are the improvements I've encountered:
- Better bass response, more tight and defined and better extension to the lower frequencies.
- Inky black background compared to the standard bearing.
- Soundstage has 'opened up' quite a bit, presentation has become more holographic.
- Better definition of individual instruments, in particular noticeable with complicated orchestral music.
- Dynamics have improved somewhat, mainly micro-dynamics.
- Detailing has improved significantly! To be honest, I didn't expect this, not to this extend.
- The music seems to 'flow' better, sounds more 'natural' and it's played with more ease. More 'fluid' so to speak. It's difficult to describe, but I hope it's clear enough.
- The somewhat 'muddy' sound is gone, vanished. It's much more open and defined now, like someone pulled away a veil.
Last but not least, I'd like to say that although some have described the Ianmac bearing as an subtle upgrade, for me, I don't think that's the correct description. Improvements in individual areas may be subtle sometimes, but combined I find it's not a subtle upgrade at all. It's quite a huge improvement actually. Hats off to Ianmac! :thumbsup:
Anyone of the other new owners who can relate to this and add to the list? :)
Last but not least, I'd like to say that although some have described the Ianmac bearing as an subtle upgrade, for me, I don't think that's the correct description. Improvements in individual areas may be subtle sometimes, but combined I find it's not a subtle upgrade at all. It's quite a huge improvement actually. Hats off to Ianmac!
Anyone of the other new owners who can relate to this and add to the list?
yep best mod to my sl1210
Progressing on from tweaking the Technics Bearing construction Im looking at how we can improve the rigidity of the bearing to the under chassis.
I have read a few posts on how others have tried to do this and it seems to fall into 3 categories, Metal plates between the bearing mounting screws and underchassis, Bluetack or foam between the bearing bottom and under chassis and wax used in a similar fashion and thirdly mention of a physical screwed rod from the bearing underside to a firm support plane.
The metal option is good but it means drilling the under chassis to support the additional plate and there maybe a height issue. Making the plate is easy (cost), installing it a hassle.
Bluetack and foam seem to work to varying (subjective) degrees. The main contact with the underchassis is via the bearing base as the bluetack and foam are compressed with the downward pressure from the mounting screws.Cheap easy DIY.
With our tweaked bearings we have an advantage in as much as our bearing bottoms are sealed and oiltight. The bottom half sits in the under chassis tub. If we can make a connection from the side of the bearing to the inside of the tub in addition to the base we will get a combined structure that will be very rigid and strenghten the underchassis.
How do we achieve this. - On the basis that it must be effective sonically, ideally it should be DIY and definitively it must be cheap.
I have two options I want to try, I want to judge their effectiveness by electronic measurement if possible ( sorry guys Im an engineer) and by sonics, ie your ears.
We have to fill the space between the bearing and underchassis Tub inner with something that will make the two a rigid structure. How rigid may be an issue ?
It must be removeable to allow bearing removal for maintenance.
I have two options I want to try, the ingredient have just arrived.!
Polyurethene foam- just like the builders use to fill gaps.
This comes in liquid form, two fluids mixed together in a ratio to give one the foam density one wants and the difficult part, the ammount of foam one needs. One further issue is the time it take to start reacting to convert from liquid into foam after mixing.
We mix what we need and get it into the bearing Tub, tighten down the bearing and watch it expand. Cut off any surplus and we have the bearing effectively "glued" into the tub but removeable as a knife can cut through the foam.
Kitchen cling film can be placed on any surface where one does not want the foam to "Glue" but just hold.
Silicon Rubber- used to make moulds for small intricate pieces.
Again two liquids are mixed and poured into the Tub. It will slowly fill the gap between the bearing and Tub and provide a solid unit. This combination may not be as rigid as the foam. The rubber will adhere to the bearing and Tub side again cling film or a silicon oil release agent painted onto surfaces we dont want the rubber to adhere to. Like foam it can be cut to allow bearing removal. The curing of the liquid mix takes a few hours so plenty of time for tweaking and cleaning up.
The cost of the liquids for each process is £10 +vat. Looks I have enough foam to do 10 decks from the bottles here.
The catch for me is which do I try first . I have to do measurements and some gear I need to allow me to do what I want wont get here till Monday.
Its early days, I have to strip my deck (again Im looking for/trying to buy another deck to keep my Mk 5 good- not keen on ebay)) to evaluate the best way to get the foam and silicone into the Tub.
Has anyone any thoughts, comment or advice they can offer -or as we say up here is my bum hanging out of the window
Ian
I've been thinking of another idea of a material to use. KAB sell a wax to place under a stock bearing. How about using the same wax but more of it? Enough to couple the bearing to the bottom of the well and the sidewalls too. Sounds easy to DIY and very inexpensive. Thoughts?
Yes I had noticed the use of wax and it obviously does work if KAB are selling it. (assuming temperatures dont cause it to soften)
Im not sure how layering it into the tub void would work layer on layer will it amalgamate and adhere to both surfaces.
I had a look at my deck this morning and access to the void with the bearing in place is good and I feel confident I can get both of my options in there easily.
With the Poly foam as it expands it will put pressure on whatever it comes into contact with and adhere to it so a firm structure is guaranteed.
With the Silicon compound it may be best to leave the bearing screws a few thou slack and firm them down when the silicon has set so putting a slight pressure on it. Being a tapered fit this will ensure good contact bearing wall to tub wall.
My only issue is which one to try first?
Gut feel is the silicone using a mould release agent, allowing me to remove it easily. Then try the Foam with kitchen cling film as required.
I have to try both as I couldnt live with only trying one knowing I may have a better option sitting on the shelf.
If all goes to plan and I get the measuring gear set up Ill try phase one on Tuesday.
dimkasta
18-11-2016, 16:19
I am currently using natural bee's wax with very nice (understatement) results.
Natural wax has a higher melting point, so it should have no problems under normal operation. All that is needed is a small lump. Cost was about 10 euros for 2 kilos directly from the beekeeper, so pretty cheap for one turntable (it' s also nice for transformers).
I would avoid candle wax and other processed variants that contain parafin as they are quite softer and melt at a much lower temperature.
I am not so sure about either foam or rubber. My feeling is that they will provide a rather "dampening" effect and not so much mass coupling.
I would experiment with heavier materials that are soft enough to squeeze between the two parts, but rigid and heavy enough to couple them and allow vibrations to pass between them.
Thanks for the input.
We have one option, using Natural Wax, that works.
I take it one melts the wax in a small container and could pour it into the gap between the bearing and side wall?
How long does it take to harden ?
I think the name foam in polyurethene foam may be misleading. It dries rock solid and the density can be varied to suit the application.
Likewise rubber. think of this as hard dried silicone.
Where Im uncertain as yet is whether we want to allow vibrations to pass between the bearing and wall or whether the energy within the vibration is dissipated in the medium we use. Im warming towards the Silicone as it would perhaps give us both
Packgrog
18-11-2016, 20:56
No, the recommended use of the wax is to soften it enough with a hair dryer that it has just enough play to squish when you push the bearing plate into it. You don't want it to liquify. http://kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/thrustwax.htm
Thanks for the clarification and link
I've got some of the wax from kabusa.com. I've been waiting to put it in. Which I'm glad I did because I'll soon have the opportunity to install the bearing Ian has sent to me!:eyebrows: When I do install the bearing, I'm planning to also put the wax in.
Im a fan of one tweak at a time.
Install your new bearing let it run in and then evaluate the performance. (Bear in mind the tweaked bearing does have a much stronger foundation for the thrust)
By that time hopefully you may have 3 options to chose from, Wax Polyfoam or Silicon.
That is a good point, Ian. I will hold off on the wax until the bearing runs in.
Zoidburg
20-11-2016, 17:17
My Ianmac bearing arrived late last week from Ian and after getting the days shopping and dog walking activities out of the way I decided to have a play with it earlier. Being a bit of a technical numpty I watched a youtube video for guidance on bearing removal and followed that, thankfully it was pretty easy really and the whole job was completed in about 35 mins. That included me fogetting to reattach the pitch control lead to the board and having to go back in when initial start up sounded terrible :D
I will definitely comment further at a later date on the sound of it but for now I'd just like to give Ian a pat on the back for what looks like a superbly engineered bit of kit and for being a real decent chap to deal with.
Cheers
Ben
If you get polyurethane body sealant from a motor factors and some std thinners squeeze some of the sealer into a pot then apply some thinners you can make a variable mix from super soft to hard . The idea is using the sealer alone is two rigid but mixed thinners and you vary the consistency been doing it for years on VW`s for all different types of uses form bonding steel sheet ,making bump stops etc .
Soudal and sikkaflex are good makes but make sure you use wax to stop it sticking you will never remove it otherwise as like people who use fibreglass moulds.
Stryder5
21-11-2016, 08:19
Peek is a good choice, as peek ceramic bearings are quite common.
I would suggest that your choice of oil is not the best.
It would also be interesting to compare the funk bearing, as this is another proven combination of materials.
Just a quick comment about PEEK, it is an engineering thermoplastic, not ceramic. There are different grades of PEEK, there is a bearing grade, carbon fibre reinforced with graphite and PTFE lubricants, this offers the lowest friction coefficient and machinability of all the PEEK grades.
Not trying to tread on anyone's toes, just correcting a misconception that PEEK is ceramic.
Ianmac may already be using this grade.
The ceramic comment was referring to the other part that makes up a bearing.
Stryder5
21-11-2016, 08:35
The ceramic comment was referring to the other part that makes up a bearing.
I'm really interested in this, what part?
The round bit - a ceramic ball.
Stryder5
21-11-2016, 09:32
The round bit - a ceramic ball.
Thanks for that, I'll be interested in the construction of this bearing.
dimkasta
21-11-2016, 09:54
Further on the lubrication matter, I recently read that motor oil has cleaning additives that can be corrosive to plastics. So use my previous suggestion of BP vanelus with care.
I also read that people had very nice results with more viscus oils or even greases like gearbox/differential lubricants (SAE 80). Has anyone tried something like that?
It might make sense for the bearing, especially with its bigger tolerances. I m not so sure about the thrust pad though.
dimkasta
21-11-2016, 11:36
Another thought I just had is that the one piece shaft transfers all the friction noise directly to the record.
An idea would be to cut the shaft's top and use something else on top of the platter to center the record
Reference my post 131, Im a bit behind schedule in completing my test on bearing tub infill but will be well underway by the end of the week.
Got deviated, long story, but I have just rebuilt my power supply using two regulators to drive the motor electronics the other the control electronics. Good improvement . Ill post more details but first I must complete the bearing tub infill
I have just used some wax to do this.
I added more than KAB suggest, heated it up and put the bearing in place whilst the wax was still in a liquid state.
It was easy to do, and the deck certainly sounds no worse.
Listening to an album I know well, it does sound slightly more focused. I am happy to leave the wax in.
Progress.
Silicon poured into the void between bearing and under chassis wall.
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2491.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2491.jpg.html)
This has yielded, to my ears, an improvement in resolution and dynamics. Need to do more listening tests but initial reaction is its in there for good !
The measurments made indicated a reduction in noise from 500hz to 20k of around 1 to 1 1/2 db. The noise spectrum using the unmodulated grooves on track 5 of the Cardas test disk is below.
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/XE2A4332.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/XE2A4332.jpg.html)
I am progressing with my DIY PSU ,prototype is running succesfully. I have to optimise the regulator board layout , size and component count and evaluate sub regulators on other specific parts of the Circuit.
I need a platter with edge damage so I can cut out the motor portion in the centre to allow me to access the electroncs with the motor running.
This PSU is rework of many earlier design principles from threads in the forum which go back a few years so not a lot brand new. But I have the benefit of using a later generation of regulators which offer improved performance in many areas. Using off the shelf components it shouldnt be expensive to build.
Photo of two regs in the old transformer hole giving an indication of sizehttp://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2495.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2495.jpg.html)
Single reg is also shown,http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2482.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2482.jpg.html) my sub regs will use Surface mount regs so should be a bit smaller
Ill update with a new thread when its complete.
Progress.
Silicon poured into the void between bearing and under chassis wall.
This has yielded, to my ears, an improvement in resolution and dynamics. Need to do more listening tests but initial reaction is its in there for good !
The measurements made indicated a reduction in noise from 500hz to 20k of around 1 to 1 1/2 db. :popcorn:
I am progressing with my DIY PSU ,prototype is running successfully. I have to optimize the regulator board layout , size and component count and evaluate sub regulators on other specific parts of the Circuit.
I need a platter with edge damage so I can cut out the motor portion in the centre to allow me to access the electronics with the motor running.
This PSU is rework of many earlier design principles from threads in the forum which go back a few years so not a lot brand new. But I have the benefit of using a later generation of regulators which offer improved performance in many areas. Using off the shelf components it shouldn't be expensive to build.
Photo of two regs in the old transformer hole giving an indication of sizehttp://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2495.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2495.jpg.html)
My sub regs will use Surface mount regs so should be a bit smaller
I'll update with a new thread when its complete.
Will a dual reg mod be doable for those (like me :) ) who have simply placed the stock power supply in an outboard box?
Around 9 years ago, I bought my Technics SL1210 MK2 from the local Guitar Center. That was when these could be had for $400 for a new one! I’ve really enjoyed the Technics over the years and have done some minor upgrades to it and the system I use it in. I bought it with the intention of always keeping it even if down the road I buy another turntable. And along the way, to do some upgrades to it.
Over the years I’ve tried some minor upgrades to the turntable. This includes a few different types of mats. After trying several, I found an acrylic type of platter mat to be the best one. I also put heat shrink on the tonearm which was a surprisingly good yet very cheap upgrade! I’ve also had the opportunity to try 5 cartridges on it. Out of these, the DL103R is my favorite. Unfortunately, I broke the DL103R a couple months ago. But it’s currently at Soundsmith awaiting a rebuild with the ruby cantilever and line contact! So, I know it will be even better when I get it back. Until then, I’m using my backup cartridge which is a Denon DL110.
I’ve been reading about various upgrades available for the turntable and one that has intrigued me for some time is the upgrade to the main bearing. That was also when I stumbled upon The Art of Sound forum. I believe it was a thread about various bearing upgrades which mentioned the Ian Mac bearing. As I read the reactions from owners of this, I knew I wanted one. So, I finally joined the forum after a year of lurking with the intention of contacting him.
I had the good luck of contacting him right when he was putting together a new batch. And was fortunate enough to make the list of people to receive one! I requested one with the oil reservoir. It wasn’t long before IanMac messaged me to let me know the bearing was on it’s way. Which was very decent for him to do as I hadn’t yet even paid him for it. He only requested that I send payment after I had received it and was satisfied with it. What a gentleman!
System:
Technics SL1210MK2 (platter mat & heat shrink on tonearm)
Denon DL110
iFi iPhono
Little Dot MKIII headphone amp (Amperex bugle boy tubes)
Sennheiser HD580 (minor modifications)
I was giddy with excitement when I got the notice from the post office that the bearing had arrived! Taking it out of the package, it seemed to be very well built. Not only is he a gentleman but Ian has remarkable engineering skills!
Even though I really wanted to just put the new bearing in right away, I decided to wait a bit. First I listened to the system using a couple of well known records. I used Cannonball Adderly- Somethin Else and Phish- Lawnboy. Both of these have excellent sonics and are recordings that I’m familiar with.
1867218673
After listening to few favorite tracks from both albums, I removed the old bearing and did a side by side comparison. There is a substantial difference of weight and solidity with the Ian Mac bearing. I installed it using the directions that Ian included. For the break in period, I decided to just use the Technics oil. Later on, I’ll likely try some different types of oils. So far, it’s had around 25 hours of run in.
Well, did it affect the sound? Is it a worthwhile upgrade? Yes, most definitely it is! There is more focus to the overall sound and not just the lower registers. The bass got better defined but so did the rest of the frequency range. Because of the lowered noise floor, the perception is of being able to hear deeper into the mix and therefore also getting more details such as reverberations. The sound comes from a black background.
Over the past few days, I’ve been listening to a lot of my albums and finding there are new things I’m hearing in them. For instance on Rush- Power Windows, there are moments in the music where on my main speaker system, I can hear holographic transparency. This wasn’t readily apparent on my turntable based system until the Ian Mac bearing went in. I think it’s because it lowers the noise floor and it tightens things up that these types of sonics are more readily heard.
I have no regrets about the bearing upgrade and am very impressed with it. Because the rest of the system is fairly resolving, it easily reveals changes in sound with each tweak. And I can honestly say that the bearing was not a subtle difference.
dimkasta
28-11-2016, 08:36
Nice Ian
About the regs, make sure to try the led reference.
And replace the zener regulator as well. It was probably the most infuential for my tests.
What chip regs are you using?
Sent from my HUAWEI NXT-L29 using Tapatalk
Bearing tub fill.
Ive listened now for some hours, tonight I will remove the silicon from the bearing housing, relisten and form my conclusion
Rickey, I would hope the twin reg mod would be doable its certainly my intention, but im driving blind re each individuals comfort level in wiring. If you moved your trfo your its not much more involved.
Dimaska, I used LM series regs for some time , (with Led reference), but to get what I wanted I had to use two, one as a floating pre reg. I moved to LT series ( Linear Technology) about a year ago and my technics was changed to LT from LM. These offer much better ripple rejection, transient response and half the dropout V of an LM so 1.5v is now the norm, so lower voltage transformers and lower power dissipation.The component count is about half that required by the LM series.
Im currently using two LT3081's, they are performing well. Im looking at LT3082 for sub regs for the zener you mention, D301 and as a possible upgrade of regulator Q201. Currently trying to find out the current required for the AN6682 but so far no luck in getting a spec sheet.
Its interesting to note your comment re the zener looks like the Cmos chip is more responsive to a good clean fixed supply than I thought. Ill drop a reg in there and listen.
First its remove my silicon and listen and only then tweak the 4011 supply.
Bearing tub fill.
Ive listened now for some hours, tonight I will remove the silicon from the bearing housing, relisten and form my conclusion
Rickey, I would hope the twin reg mod would be doable its certainly my intention, but im driving blind re each individuals comfort level in wiring. If you moved your trfo your its not much more involved.
I'm a pretty brave fella who's not afraid to read instructions repeatedly until I can wrap my brain around it :D After all, my deck had a dual voltage trfo and I figured out how to use just the 120v side when I did the power supply mod and it hasn't burst into flames or let out the magic smoke.
Dubster68
01-12-2016, 10:45
Ian PM sent👍🏻
Dubster68
03-12-2016, 14:11
Would just like to thank Ian Mac for the fast response and delivery of one of his modded bearings.
Very well constructed loads of help and advice and delivered next day. Also Mickeyb for letting me know Ian had some ready made:D Was going to buy a Mike New bearing but after import taxes etc it was pushing it out of reach of my budget. The wife keeps mentioning things about a thing called Christmas bla bla bla. So that stopped that idea in its tracks.
Impressions, construction is very good and fitting is straight forward. I know the bearing needs time to settle so I dont know if its a placebo effect as the Bass sounds different in a better way. Also the vocals sound more forward.
Very happy as a new member so far with the support from members of this site who are always willing to help me spend money:lol:.
Not good for my funds though:doh:
Mikeandvan
03-12-2016, 14:45
I also have one of Ians bearings on its way to me, thanks Ian. I've yet to upgrade the power supply though, currently fishing around for a cheaper option. I think the Mike New bearings and other mods such as the funk firm platter are too expensive for the 1210, if your gonna spend £500 + on every upgrade you might as well buy an SP10 or other high end Jap TT and upgrade that instead, or just service it. I guess the 1210s are good for cheaper modding as they are so plentiful. I paid £600 for my 'as new' 1210, it came with Jelco 750D and acromat, thought it was a pretty good price. Currently looking at other mats, such as Isoplats, which again are reasonable money, and as I said power supply, whats good for around £200? I don't rate my 1210 as it is with denser music, but I love it with simpler more sparse stuff like techno, and house, in which it seems to excel.
Bearing tub fill.
Ive listened now for some hours, tonight I will remove the silicon from the bearing housing, relisten and form my conclusion
Dimaska, I used LM series regs for some time , (with Led reference), but to get what I wanted I had to use two, one as a floating pre reg. I moved to LT series ( Linear Technology) about a year ago and my technics was changed to LT from LM. These offer much better ripple rejection, transient response and half the dropout V of an LM so 1.5v is now the norm, so lower voltage transformers and lower power dissipation.The component count is about half that required by the LM series.
Im currently using two LT3081's, they are performing well. Im looking at LT3082 for sub regs for the zener you mention, D301 and as a possible upgrade of regulator Q201. Currently trying to find out the current required for the AN6682 but so far no luck in getting a spec sheet.
Its interesting to note your comment re the zener looks like the Cmos chip is more responsive to a good clean fixed supply than I thought. Ill drop a reg in there and listen.
First its remove my silicon and listen and only then tweak the 4011 supply.
Have refilled the bearing tub with silicon!
Power supply redesign finalised with 2 main regulators, one feeding control electronics the other feeding the motor drive electronics.There are two additional sub regs replacing the technics "on board regulators" as highlighted by Dimaska.
Have posted a mention of this in the 1200 DIY power supply thread but there is little interest. Perhaps it is electronically too involved for most but it really gets the best out of the technics platter drive electronics.
Dubster68
03-12-2016, 20:49
Has it been decided if there is any benefits of filling the well around the bearing? Also if so what can be used for best results.
http://www.mbfg.co.uk/rtv-silicone.html
I used GP3481-F
I like it but it needs a more few brave souls to try it and pass their opinions.
Dubster68
03-12-2016, 23:51
http://www.mbfg.co.uk/rtv-silicone.html
I used GP3481-F
I like it but it needs a more few brave souls to try it and pass their opinions.
I dont mind having a bash if I can get some silicone rubber. What size tubes did you get Ian?
I bought the 550g red fast catalyst kit of two liquids that one mixes
£10 +vat
If you mix some for a bearing tub you will most likely have some leftover. two squash balls cut in half. sit them in an egg box or similar to keep them level, fill with liquid. Next morning you will have 4 vibration absorbing feet for heavy gear like a technics.
Dubster68
04-12-2016, 18:12
Thank you Ian
I am glad your brain works on overdrive with these crazy quality ideas:lol:
allthingsanalogue
04-12-2016, 22:18
Another thought I just had is that the one piece shaft transfers all the friction noise directly to the record.
An idea would be to cut the shaft's top and use something else on top of the platter to center the record
Some Roksan decks use exactly this method, you place the record on the shaft as you would normally would and then remove the top part of the shaft.
Mikeandvan
04-12-2016, 23:40
Some Roksan decks use exactly this method, you place the record on the shaft as you would normally would and then remove the top part of the shaft.
That sounds like a ridiculous waste of time.
dimkasta
05-12-2016, 09:30
I just ordered a couple of AN6680s so hopefully I will be back in the testing game soon.
Ian do you have anything else coupling the bearing thrust pad to the chassis? Or just the liquid silicon?
Spectral Morn
05-12-2016, 11:02
That sounds like a ridiculous waste of time.
Roksan believe it removes a source of noise from the playback interface, which with vinyl any noise entering the cartridge other than the bumps in the vinyl groves is bad. A well designed bearing shouldn't create much noise, but even very good ones will probably generate a little, so by taking the spindle away which touch's the inside of the hole it does that. In principle its not that big a hassle to do it. In saying that Roksan turntables, particular Xerxes are a right royal pain in the back side to build and set up. The only time I have ever come close to throwing a turntable out the door of the shop I once worked in was a Xerxes, a new one from around 2006 - awful thing to set up :(
I just ordered a couple of AN6680s so hopefully I will be back in the testing game soon.
Ian do you have anything else coupling the bearing thrust pad to the chassis? Or just the liquid silicon?
No silicon rubber covering the full bearing tub.
I found it difficult to do before and after tests due to the time delay caused by the rubber curing.
Ill be building another deck at the end of the week with my bearing and PSU mods, I will leave the bearing tub in free space so ill be able to do a much better comparison
No silicon rubber covering the full bearing tub.
I found it difficult to do before and after tests due to the time delay caused by the rubber curing.
Ill be building another deck at the end of the week with my bearing and PSU mods, I will leave the bearing tub in free space so ill be able to do a much better comparison
I have a block of wax waiting in the wings... :popcorn:
Well Im a little behind schedule but I have built a second deck with my bearing and PSU regulators. I also fitted my prototype silicon damper so both decks were identical excepting the underslung weight on my own deck. I went through hoops changing cartidge and physical position of the deck so each test was done in an identical situation with the same cartridge.
I am firmly of the opinion that the bearing tub filled with silicon rubber is the winner for me. Better LF and mid definition to my ears. The second Deck bearing tub will be filled later this week.
I think I am close to getting as much performance as I can from my deck in its present configuration. There may be more to gain from looking further at the technics arm alternatives and trying a MC cartridge but more thought has to be given to the cost of further moves.
I am where I am at a reasonable cost, about £500 above the cost of my deck with its cartridge.
When I started this project I didnt appreciate how good the Technics Deck would be at this stage. I am very happy with the performance I'm getting
Before going forward I have to ensure that my electronics are up to scratch and reveal exacty what the technics can do in its existing state and that they wont mask any potential improvements.
The weak link in my system is my Phono pre.
I have made the decision to build a new Phono pre.- given it is a common factor no matter what deck I have, its worth the spend. Have looked at various DIY options but getting a combination of wanted facilities and a quality PCB is an issue. Very few of the DIY designs give one a proper technical specification so one is driving a little blind.
My own homework led me to the Danish DACT C100. Its a MC/ MM unit with a technical specification that is top notch, as yet I haven't found anything to match it. (I believe some other manufacturers use this unit as the amp in their branded Pre.)
It comes as a PCB and I have to build my own dual power supply and case so there's a bit of work ahead into the New Year. It outputs balanced as well as unbalanced so it opens the opportunity to go balanced from my Phono through to the input of my Ncores. I run balanced at the moment from my Benchmark DAC to my Ncores so a simple passive switch is all I need.
I will have recovered from the cost of this board by the end of January!
Im building 4 Jung regulators in preparation for its arrival.
Ill keep all posted and open a separate thread on the DACT C100 build
Meantime I hope someone tries filling their bearing tub and reports back
Wrackandruin
18-12-2016, 09:44
In short, get the bearing. Now I'll blab on:
If you have a hi-fi that allows you to hear improvements in sound, eg say new interconnects, then you'll immediately hear the bearing's improvement to your overall sound.
What did the bearing sound like? Mmmm...well it just seemed to just allow me to hear more music. One of my favourite albums right now is the Mica Levi soundtrack for the movie 'Under the Skin. On my modified Rega (Groovetracer, Michael Lim stuff), it sounded cool and analytical. On my Technics with Ian's bearing there seemed to be more cohesion, but, for me anyway it moved me. I felt part of what the musician's (and the sound engineer) where trying to convey. I have to add it isn't just the IanMac bearing, it's just that the bearing allowed me to get a bit closer to what my hi-if was capable of.
I was so moved by what I'd heard that I swapped my Rega with a guy in Auckland for another Technics (just today in fact!). Sadly though, part of the swap meant that my recently acquired Origin Live Silver Mk3 had go with too. The upside was that I got the Jelco 750, so I'm not too disappointed.
Now that I've got a second Technics, I've decided to pick up a second bearing from Ian!
It would be good if the bearing was a bit more 'transportable' - I'm thinking of all those DJs needing to move their tables a lot!
Ian makes his bearings in batches of five. If you're interested in a bearing, let him know. Then he'll make a batch if there's enough interest from forum members.
dimkasta
19-12-2016, 21:46
Ian if you are still interested in phonos I whole heartedly recommend the VSPS by RJM in diyaudio (v300 dual mono, not vspsx or the older stereo version).
Sounds awesome in its kit form, and has huge potential of improvement with experimentation (see better regs and AD797 which can be used later for MC as well changing two resistors) and is really easy and cheap to build even if you do not get his kit.
Thanks Dimmy, Ive already made the decision - DACT CT100 has arrived. Just ordering the parts for the dual PSU
Ian
Zoidburg
20-12-2016, 08:55
Ive had my Ianmac bearing installed for a couple of weeks now and am very impressed with it. It seems like an increase in focus and everything has tightened up. For the money I think its a total no brainer.
A few people have contacted me about my use of Silicon Oil in my own TT .
I currently have 2 Techies, one running Silicon oil of 100CST rating. This has a noticeably lower friction than Std oil. I has been running for the last 18 months on a bearing with an oil tub fitted with no issues.
My second TT has been running Silicon oil with Graphite added, 100CST rating but appears slightly thicker due to the added Graphite. Used in a bearing with an oil tub fitted, I like the added graphite. Again no issues
I bought these from C Bennis Supplies, Birkdale Trading Estate, Southport ,Mersey PR8 4NY, They hold a wide stock of different lubricant that may be of interest. The last oil I bought was from their Ebay Shop.
I am just completing a batch of bearings for some members. I bought a batch of Techie bearings from my supplier last week to find that Technics have put up their parts prices. Due to the £ v the Yen V the Euro exchange rates I'm told. Technics import to Germany and their UK operation buys from there. These have moved up £8 each including VAT.
I've had the bearing for a little over a month and half and I remain thoroughly impressed with the upgrade. I started out with the stock technics oil for break-in. And then recently I've switched to a two step oiling process. I start by using a little bit of St Claire Nano-oil 10wt. I then let this work onto the bearing surfaces. Next I fill the remaining reservoir with 100CST silicon oil as Ian suggested.
Honestly, I didn't listen before and after so not sure of the benefits in the audio. It's just that I was so impressed by the nano-oil in other applications that I thought it couldn't hurt here as well.
St Claire Nano 10 looks good.
If its working well for you why spend more on Silicon?
The more I use the Silicon with graphite the more I like it, similar to your thoughts on Nano but with graphite with on bearing surfaces.
The St Claire Nano oil, while being excellent, is rather expensive. A small tube of it costs approximately $18. While a larger container of 100CST costs around $4. So that's why I use a little bit of Nano oil first and then fill the remaining with the silicone oil.
Hi IanMac. I was wondering if any bearings for the 1200mk2 are still available or if you plan to have some available in the future. If they become available again, I would be interested in purchasing one with the reservoir if it could be shipped to the US. I live in New Jersey. Thanks and Best Wishes, Bob
Ive just finished a batch, Ill drop you a PM
CableMaker1
23-03-2017, 19:57
What is the difference between Ians bearings and what David Cowley (used) to offer ?
Just wondering as I am following this thread with interest.
Ianmac
Hi, I'm interested and want to buy your Technics 1210 Bearing Mod. Please contact me to PM.
I have been away on holiday.
PM sent
Dubster68
21-08-2017, 21:11
Ians bearings are top build quality and priced very well. They are 110% better than the basic standard bearing and look amazing. I used one before I bought a MN bearing at a good price but to be honest I didn't noticed any difference at all to the sound. Very well home made engineering so well done Ian for your ongoing experimentation and helpful advice:D
Hi
I've not been on the forum for quite some time so the Ian bearing is a new concept to me.
Some years ago Vantage Audio supplied me with a bearing that, iirc, had the thrust pad modified.
Is this a similar mod?
Thanks
dimkasta
13-09-2017, 12:01
Ian got any bearings left?
My last batch went earlier this year and demand seemed to dry up in line with interest in the techie.
I currently have 3 members interested in a bearing and have promised to contact them if I decide to make another small batch.
One major issue is the price of new Technics bearings here in the UK due to the fall in the value of the £ against the Euro/Dollar/Yen, last batch they cost £33, today the dealer I used to buy from wants £59.
I'll revisit this and cost my tooling, materials and bearings and let all know if I decide to make another batch.
dimkasta
15-09-2017, 10:28
OK mate. Please keep me in your list. If I manage to steal some time from work, I 'll try to check a few local shops for old stock
bighead1707
14-10-2017, 14:17
Please count me in your list too. Thanks
Hi Ian, What is the roughly price of the bearing?
Guys
I'm sorry I cant answer questions at the moment.
I have a health issue which must be resolved before I promise to make any more bearings
Ian
Guys
I'm sorry I cant answer questions at the moment.
I have a health issue which must be resolved before I promise to make any more bearings
IanHi Ian,
Sorry to hear about that, hope everything goes ok.
Guys
I'm sorry I cant answer questions at the moment.
I have a health issue which must be resolved before I promise to make any more bearings
Ian
Get well soon.
dimkasta
25-10-2017, 18:41
Get well soon mate
Hello Ian,
I am also a "senior" and familiar with health issues. I wish you the very best with resolution of your setback and I hope it is of the nature that heals quickly and does not linger.
If you are maintaining a list of customers wanting your Technics bearing, please add me to the group. I have two SL1210 M5G's and from what I have gleaned off the net your bearing is the best.
In good health,
Doug Olsen
San Francisco Bay Area
Please count me in your list. Thanks
Please count me in your list too. Thanks
It's been quite a while since I've read up on this thread. Ian, I'm still as happy as can be with the bearing and the improvements it made! I was just curious to see what you're up to these days? Still working on some tweaks for the turntable or other audio gear? If so, would love to see what you have in the works.
Cycleallday
07-02-2019, 20:47
It's been quite a while since I've read up on this thread. Ian, I'm still as happy as can be with the bearing and the improvements it made! I was just curious to see what you're up to these days? Still working on some tweaks for the turntable or other audio gear? If so, would love to see what you have in the works.
Head over to this link Vishai
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?51046-Hypex-DLCP-(DSP)-with-6-Channel-UcD-Amp-Project/page3
Mel
Vishia/Mel
I made my first post on the forum for well over a year yesterday.
I have been out of commission for the best part of 15 months, One member of the forum was aware of my issues but I asked him to keep it to himself.
Diagnosed with Prostate cancer in June 2017, Prostate removed early 2018, peebags tubes etc removed 6 weeks later strict instructions to take it easy and avoid heavy lifting. Severe incontinence which slowly improved over a year, still suffering from stress incontinence so still waiting on the muscle and nerves round my bladder healing -- a slow process.
I have not sat doing nothing but did follow the instruction to avoid heavy lifting so only a little work in my workshop and my steam locos had an easy year.
I have two techies, both with my bearing, power supply mods and sub power modules added. I built carbon fibre arms for both. One has been used frequently and performs very well.
I built a good Phono pre amp using a board from DACT in Denmark ( I dont think one can DIY a good PCB these days with ultra small components and a well tested layout) Its a pro spec. board needing 2 +/-Low noise power supplies and metalwork
I then looked at my streamer,a DIY version of the CAPS series from Computer Audiophile forum. Found a company in Switzerland who manufacture for the pro industry and have available a Board for DIY enthusiasts ( Engineered SA, their NMR network renderer, needs a good power supply and some sub miniature coaxial cable) ended up building 2. I really should write these up and get them onto the forum.
Im currently looking at building a pair of active speakers using Hypex Fusion panel Amps but its very early days. Its a very specialised subject with a steep learning curve. I think aligning the speakers correctly is challenging in a DIY environment.
I have 3 steam locos all needing attention, one of these is a 4 man lift, but they will be running again this summer.
So Ive not quite lost a year!
Ian
Spectral Morn
08-02-2019, 10:10
Vishia/Mel
I made my first post on the forum for well over a year yesterday.
I have been out of commission for the best part of 15 months, One member of the forum was aware of my issues but I asked him to keep it to himself.
Diagnosed with Prostate cancer in June 2017, Prostate removed early 2018, peebags tubes etc removed 6 weeks later strict instructions to take it easy and avoid heavy lifting. Severe incontinence which slowly improved over a year, still suffering from stress incontinence so still waiting on the muscle and nerves round my bladder healing -- a slow process.
I have not sat doing nothing but did follow the instruction to avoid heavy lifting so only a little work in my workshop and my steam locos had an easy year.
I have two techies, both with my bearing, power supply mods and sub power modules added. I built carbon fibre arms for both. One has been used frequently and performs very well.
I built a good Phono pre amp using a board from DACT in Denmark ( I dont think one can DIY a good PCB these days with ultra small components and a well tested layout) Its a pro spec. board needing 2 +/-Low noise power supplies and metalwork
I then looked at my streamer,a DIY version of the CAPS series from Computer Audiophile forum. Found a company in Switzerland who manufacture for the pro industry and have available a Board for DIY enthusiasts ( Engineered SA, their NMR network renderer, needs a good power supply and some sub miniature coaxial cable) ended up building 2. I really should write these up and get them onto the forum.
Im currently looking at building a pair of active speakers using Hypex Fusion panel Amps but its very early days. Its a very specialised subject with a steep learning curve. I think aligning the speakers correctly is challenging in a DIY environment.
I have 3 steam locos all needing attention, one of these is a 4 man lift, but they will be running again this summer.
So Ive not quite lost a year!
Ian
Very sorry to hear you were ill, glad to hear you are recovering. Welcome back to the forum Ian.
RobbieGong
08-02-2019, 10:23
Vishia/Mel
I made my first post on the forum for well over a year yesterday.
I have been out of commission for the best part of 15 months, One member of the forum was aware of my issues but I asked him to keep it to himself.
Diagnosed with Prostate cancer in June 2017, Prostate removed early 2018, peebags tubes etc removed 6 weeks later strict instructions to take it easy and avoid heavy lifting. Severe incontinence which slowly improved over a year, still suffering from stress incontinence so still waiting on the muscle and nerves round my bladder healing -- a slow process.
I have not sat doing nothing but did follow the instruction to avoid heavy lifting so only a little work in my workshop and my steam locos had an easy year.
I have two techies, both with my bearing, power supply mods and sub power modules added. I built carbon fibre arms for both. One has been used frequently and performs very well.
I built a good Phono pre amp using a board from DACT in Denmark ( I dont think one can DIY a good PCB these days with ultra small components and a well tested layout) Its a pro spec. board needing 2 +/-Low noise power supplies and metalwork
I then looked at my streamer,a DIY version of the CAPS series from Computer Audiophile forum. Found a company in Switzerland who manufacture for the pro industry and have available a Board for DIY enthusiasts ( Engineered SA, their NMR network renderer, needs a good power supply and some sub miniature coaxial cable) ended up building 2. I really should write these up and get them onto the forum.
Im currently looking at building a pair of active speakers using Hypex Fusion panel Amps but its very early days. Its a very specialised subject with a steep learning curve. I think aligning the speakers correctly is challenging in a DIY environment.
I have 3 steam locos all needing attention, one of these is a 4 man lift, but they will be running again this summer.
So Ive not quite lost a year!
Ian
Sorry to here what you've been through Ian but really glad you seem to be over the worst.
Prostate cancer is no joke. It's something I'm very mindful of myself as there have been campaigns for awareness. It is a big issue amongst afro caribbean men, where apparently 1in 4 will get it at some point in their lives :eek: https://prostatecanceruk.org/get-involved/black-men-and-prostate-cancer/prostate-cancer-and-your-risk
Great that you are now getting stuck into hifi projects again :thumbsup:
Do keep us posted with regards to any builds you take on, pics etc always welcome :)
Great to see you back posting Ian.
Having been in Ians workshop I can only imagine how hard it's been for him not to work on his locomotives and his Hifi projects.
If I remember right he has two industrial lathes/tools in the workshop that he can do great work with, the large steam loco he mentioned has been built from scratch and it's mightily impressive. The only thing missing from the workshop is a decent heater [emoji23]
He fitted the Paul Hynes regulators to my techie 1210 when I visited him and for that I will always be grateful.
His techie bearing is well worth trying but not sure if he plans doing any more as I knew the techie bearing that it's based on has risen in price quite a bit and this in turn made Ian think it wouldn't sell as well with the finished product being more expensive. He was also designing a tidy looking straight carbon arm for the 1210.
All the best Ian ( yours is possibly the only secret I've ever managed to keep [emoji6][emoji23])
Lang May Yer Lum Reek
Ian, sorry to hear about the illness you were dealing with. I'm glad you're on the path to recovery! And that you're keeping busy with your various projects. Cheers!
Dubster68
08-02-2019, 21:39
Happy to see you back posting Ian. I hope everything is heading back to normal:)
As Mike says above Ians bearings are amazing and very well made. I would buy another one if they were ever produced again as not much on the market can touch them at the price.
Very sorry to hear you were ill, glad to hear you are recovering. Welcome back to the forum Ian.
+1... Really sorry to hear what you've been going through, Ian. I wish you a speedy and full recovery.
Take care.
Marco.
bighead1707
19-02-2019, 12:40
Welcome back
Audio Al
19-02-2019, 14:29
Good to see you back Ian
I have 3 steam locos all needing attention, one of these is a 4 man lift, but they will be running again this summer.
We NEED photos
:worthless:
Glad you are on the mend Ian, My father in law is in his third week of radio therapy at the moment .
Regards Gerry
Hello Ian,
What an ordeal for you. I'm happy you are on the mend and making good strides to getting better.
In late 2017 I asked to be put on your "want" list for the Ianmac Bearing.
I still want to be on the list and am ready to purchase the bearing if you decide on making a new batch.
All the best
Regards,
Doug Olsen
I have looked at making a small batch of bearing for a few members but the bad news I got from the supplier who provided me with new bearings a year + ago was -
Panasonic have discontinued pretty much every part for legacy 1200/1210's (including bearings) and interchangeability with the new models GAE / GR is limited to pitch knobs and arms rests so I'm afraid I can't supply.
One can look at good secondhand bearings since my mod has them running in oil but finding "Good" bearings is another problem
Ill keep looking at this but its not encouraging.
Ian
Audio Al
06-03-2019, 14:59
This one is available on eeee b ay if you have no other options
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Technics-SL-1200-SL-1210-New-Precision-Audiophile-Bearing/252047748018?hash=item3aaf376bb2:g:~woAAOxyBPZThw-N
Cycleallday
06-03-2019, 16:18
Not so long ago (months) I found somebody selling original bearings with the KAB base modification and soft putty for under the bearing housing. Cost was about £65 from eBay. Quite happy with the one I bought from him but I expect you can still buy from KAB in USA if you want to mod yourself.
Mel
I have looked at making a small batch of bearing for a few members but the bad news I got from the supplier who provided me with new bearings a year + ago was -
Panasonic have discontinued pretty much every part for legacy 1200/1210's (including bearings) and interchangeability with the new models GAE / GR is limited to pitch knobs and arms rests so I'm afraid I can't supply.
One can look at good secondhand bearings since my mod has them running in oil but finding "Good" bearings is another problem
Ill keep looking at this but its not encouraging.
Ian
Hi Ian,
Is it not an option to do the work to a customer supplied bearing, assuming you OK it before commencing any work?
Clive197
11-02-2020, 12:00
I have an original bearing which to the best of my knowledge is in A1 condition. Swapped out when I got a Mike New bearing about 4 yrs ago. PM me if interested.
Thanks Clive Ill take it.
I have been looking around to see if I could find any new bearings, so far Ive found one and at a price I didnt like. Looks like Panasonic have cleaned out their stock. Kabusa in the states are also saying the bearings are no longer available.
I have been considering modding bearings supplied by members, which is where we started a few years ago, and the post from Matt prompted me to make some decisions.
Im away next week on hols so Im going to find some thinking time and see what options are available to us.
Intention is to replicate what I have been doing
Ill post when I get back
I have a good used bearing spare if that`s any help Ian
I should have one as well, Can't remember if I've given it away already, I'll have a hunt for it tonight.
Thanks all,
Im in a very wet Northumberland till next Wednesday Ill make contact when i get back.
Going through the kabusa website they indicate that the tonearm/ bearing assembly for the old models are no longer available but the tonearm assmly from the new ones fit the old model but at a very serious price.
Keep old arms/ assemblies etc if you have fitted new arms
Hi Ian
Sorry to hear of your health problems. It's been quite some time since I've posted here. Glad to hear that the mending process is going well and your back in action. Just wanted to let you know that I"m still enjoying the modified bearing I received from you a little over 2 years ago. I'll always be grateful for your help with the mods to the regulators on the board. Your explanations and precise drawings gave me the confidence to modify the board. I enjoy using the turntable almost every day. I ended up also building a Pass Pearl 2 phono preamp that I love. Again, just wanted to Thank You again for your work on the bearing and all your help with the regulator mods. Good luck with all the projects you have lined up. Best Wishes, Bob
Have contacted those with bearings available and looking at making a small batch for fellow forum members, particularly those I promised bearings before I went out of commision.
The number I can make will be dependant on the good bearings I can find, hopefully again from forum members. I will consider modifying a donor bearing.
I have some new tooling to purchase before I can start machining but will keep all posted re progress.
Ian
Spectral Morn
21-02-2020, 14:35
Have contacted those with bearings available and looking at making a small batch for fellow forum members, particularly those I promised bearings before I went out of commision.
The number I can make will be dependant on the good bearings I can find, hopefully again from forum members. I will consider modifying a donor bearing.
I have some new tooling to purchase before I can start machining but will keep all posted re progress.
Ian
Good to hear :)
Diviy
Sent you a PM your inbox is full
Ian
Im on schedule to start reworking bearings
First should be be ready mid week using a bearing from a forum member. It will be capable of running in oil or silicon oil.
Ill take some photos of bearings to help members identify the most recent offering from technics.
Ian
Photos for info
https://i.imgur.com/XH2nPZ1.jpg
This shows 2 spindles - avoid the one on the right. It is fitted to early bearings and has a small black plastic gear on the bottom.
https://i.imgur.com/K6nG6dx.jpg
This shows the bearing case to try and get. Clearly identified by the moulded squares on the top Filled with a variety of dots to probably specify date of manufacture.
The older bearings have a standard cast aluminium finish with usually only two marks an arrow and a 2 digits.
https://i.imgur.com/junA3Z1.jpg
Used bearing plates These clearly show heavy wear marks on the bearing support disc. Probably never seen lubricant or used with a non standard (heavier) platter. Any lubricant placed here is open to atmosphere, may dry out and most certainly will collect any crap flying around and make excellent grinding paste.
https://i.imgur.com/TdDOOdX.jpg
The bottom of a new bearing I cut off before modifying its top.This shows one of the weak points of the original design The base is not machined and is ex foundry casting. The bearing plate is only supported by two screws diagonally opposite each other, it can move, albeit a small ( but its a turntable) amount at 90 degees to the mounting screw axis. Typicall there is up to 6 thou clearance..
Maybe OK for Disco use !
I looked at this 3 years ago searching for a genuine DIY solution but failed. In my book the case needs machining before fitting any base which must be secure ideally around 360 degrees and the lubricant sealed from atmosphere.
Im back to my original designs of almost 4 years ago.
Ill post later this week re progress
https://i.imgur.com/QW4U81y.jpg
3 bearings. The rear is a new Bearing I bought a few weeks ago (and paid dearly for it). The left hand is a new bearing bought before I went ill, I have modded it and its ready to go.
The right hand is a used bearing almost completely modded to the same level as the one on the left. Will finish it to morrow.
Having inspected a few used bearings. Im now forming an opinion as to the best way to go with them.
Some sites and forums say the techie bearing only wears on the baseplate, as per my photos in the previous post. I have found that, as one would expect, some wear on the shaft. It can be felt with the (bottom circlip removed) as you lift the shaft gently as if to remove it. There is a slight change to the resistance as the unused section of the shaft enters the actual bearing. This is easy to detect if you have 2 or 3 bearing to compare and very obvious if you have a new unused bearing for comparison.
I have looked at the options of replacing the baseplate with an oil tub which lubricated the shaft end. To get this baseplate properly aligned with the bearing shaft one would have to machine the bearing body bottom surface and we still have the issue of baseplate stability and the lubricant used open to atmosphere.
With some wear likely on the shaft Im sticking to my original thoughts re an oil or silicon oil filled structure where the shaft end and the actual bearing insert can be run in oil. This film of oil on the shaft to bearing contact surface can assist in reducing the effect of any wear. (Bear in mind we are talking in microns re shaft wear)
So Im firmly back where I started re the mod level I would work to if reworking used bearings- exactly as per my original mods. The user would be able to select the level of the oil in the bearing from none to the top of the shaft and select the type of oil he wanted to use. This would be done without removing the bearing from the techie.
The last bearings I made were done in batches of 10. It is unlikely that 10 used bearing would appear for rework so the rework time on a bearing would be increased due to the time consuming tooling changes needed for a single bearing.
Its difficult to evaluate the level of enthusiasm that exists for the old 1200 in todays market.
Anyone like to comment on this as its the only way I'm going to get the feedback to evaluate whether this project is worth taking on.
Ian
If I didn’t have my Funk bearing, I would be putting my name on the list.
Anybody who has a standard bearing should seriously consider getting their bearing updated.
I have a spare used bearing which I am considering getting modified for a worst case scenario.
moodybuilder
08-03-2020, 11:38
I had one of Ian’s bearings on my 1210 which was a massive upgrade in my option and the build quality he does is second to none, I think I have a unmoded bearing I’ll try and dig it out.
As one pm said--- we're going to have to get bearings for the techie somewhere.
I have taken the plunge and ordered enough materials to make 10+ bearings. Some parts come from the states but should be here in 10 -14 days.
I have one, now rare beast, an original new techie bearing. modded as per my last run to run completely in lubricant.
I have one good used bearing modded to the same level. Anyone wanting to try this or have a bearing they want modified get in touch by PM
Ian
HD Goofnut
10-03-2020, 21:45
Sent you a PM 3 days ago Ian :)
If you need someone to make up the numbers for the production run, let me know.
HD Goofnut
11-03-2020, 13:11
Replied
Ian
Thanks very much, sent you an email :)
I bought my 1210 with a Mike New Bearing already installed are there any members who can explain the differences between it and the Ian Mac bearing.
Audio Al
14-03-2020, 18:22
All I can say is the Mike New bearing was made 100% not a adapted standard bearing
I understand the Ian Mac bearing has a new base made with std top end
Nat,
The mike new bearing was a totally new bearing manufactured from scratch.
My bearing was designed to do 3 things and was finally configured with the help of many on the forum.
1 make it affordable
2 make it last with minimal maintenace
3 make it improve the electronic signal performance of the deck.
I had a target price of £150, less than half the cost of most alternatives. It was cost effective to use a new techie bearing and mod the design weaknesses of the original. It was only available to forum members. ( I am a retired engineer- not a dealer)
It is completely oil filled so all the bearing contact surfaces have a film of oil. It is topped up if needed without removing the bearing from the techie. (It does not have a standard top end.)
I have measured, and others on the forum independantly, an improvement of 6 to 8db in the electronically measured noise coming from the bearing, thats half the level of that from a standard bearing. This results in an improved electronic audio signal with more detail and better bass.
I made them for two years then stopped due to illness. When I recovered I wanted to make more bearings for those I had previously promised but was stopped dead in my tracks due to Technics no longer supplying new bearings
There is a growing interest in using a good used Techie bearing as the donor and this is where we are now. The advantage of all bearing surfaces having a film of oil on them may prove to be benefitial.
Hope this helps
Ian
Thanks Ian for taking the time to explain.
How many people do you have on the list for the next production run?
4 expressions of interest at the moment but here in the UK Coronavirus is occupying minds and Hi fi may not be at the top of priority lists.
I have 10 kits of parts for bearing upgrades, 95% complete, another day will see them finished and hopefully the component from USA will be here this week.
I have bought two bearings from forum members and will mod them as soon as I can. Machining the donor bearing and setting the shaft height is not a quick job and must not be rushed.
The original New bearing I had is spoken for.
One reworked bearing is finished and available.
Ian
Ok, Cool.
I still maintain an interest in this, but I am happy to give up “my slot” if someone else comes along who needs a modified bearing.
It will be the end of the month before I can post my used bearing to you though.
The Corona virus is getting quite restrictive over here.
I've just discovered that I actually have one of your bearings Ian I contacted the previous owner and he confirmed this. So my next question is what is the best oil for the bearing and how do I go about topping it up?
Again I'd be very grateful for any help.
A good quality SAE5 oil.------- not multigrade oil.
The previous owner should have given you the instruction sheet !
I have copies on my PC so will send you a PM and we can exchange via email
Thanks Ian that will be a great help.
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