Strange Inspire LP12 woe - help/advice sought please

[andybee33]

Hi folks,

Hope you are all well - I've had nothing to say for a while so just been lurking!

I'm posting as my Inspire Hifi-modded LP12 (Origin Live Silver arm and AT33EV cart) has developed a strange fault that I can't understand. If I'm playing an LP (let's pretend it has 4 tracks on each side, as they often do!) then, when I get to about the beginning of track 3 (assuming they are equal lengths) the sound starts to get a bit crackly - very feint at first but gradually worsening. By near the end of track 3 the record has started to skip and the sound is very crackly indeed.

I would have thought that this was to do with anti-skating force but the OL Silver uses a simple 'ball bearing on a fishing line' solution for this, so surely the anti-skating pressure doesn't change as the arm moves across the record? I'm reluctant to start tinkering with things until I have at least some understanding of why it might be happening. The turntable is level according to my turntable spirit level and the problem occurs on all records that I've tried - which vary in flatness from 'very flat' to 'pretty warped'.

Any ideas? I'm a bit confused.

thanks ;)

Andy

[struth]

If nothing has been moved then might be a bearing

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Hi Andy
How many grams of weight do you have on the cartridge?
The cartridge alignment, checking with a protractor some which are
available as a downloaded protractor page is worth doing,
arm bearings as Struth said and anti skate would be things to check,
as its firmly telling you there is misalignment at that part of the LP

With the LP 12 there is not a lot to go wrong, but check the
pulley and belt, by first gently removing the outer platter, if
you spot lots of worn belt rubber on the motor pulley, clean it up
and assess if a new belt might be needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REWxF8m2qRk

[PaulStewart]

Hi Andy,

I have an OL Silver myself, currentley it's on one of my Techy 120s so I know it's a bit of a bitch adjusting the tracking weight. My first thought is check that and of course the alingnment and overhang. It could be a bearing, but the silver in no fragile wimp, it's very well made in fact. The fact that if I read you correctly, the problem only happens 3/4s of the way across the disc, suggests a geometry, VTF or a combination of the two.

[Marco]

Hi Paul,

Totally off-topic, I know, but since you're on line, I thought I'd use the opportunity to ask when is your blues radio show going back on air, and you doing regular requests and updates, such as it was before?

Your shows are missed, mate! :)

Marco.

[PaulStewart]

Hi Marco,

The shows are temoprairily offline, the archive shoepwas are on mixcloud if anyone wants to listen again, but with the increase in workload and the move of office and house, I have not had time to set up the radio studio. The space where it will go is still full of boxes. But the new season of the Cellar Club will be back ASAP

[Marco]

No worries, mate. I know what it's like when you've just moved house! Appreciate the update and look forward to when you can get the show up and running again :cool:

Apologies for the thread-drift, folks!

Marco.

[Ammonite Audio]

Hi Andy,

I have an OL Silver myself, currentley it's on one of my Techy 120s so I know it's a bit of a bitch adjusting the tracking weight. My first thought is check that and of course the alingnment and overhang. It could be a bearing, but the silver in no fragile wimp, it's very well made in fact. The fact that if I read you correctly, the problem only happens 3/4s of the way across the disc, suggests a geometry, VTF or a combination of the two.

Surely if the problem happens in the same place, on every record, it would tend to indicate a sticking lateral bearing, or maybe a snagging wire inside the tonearm, that hinders its free movement across the record. Either way, I would not continue using the arm, otherwise the stylus is likely to be damaged. I'd send the arm back to OL for a proper check.

[Clive197]

Hi Andy

When I bought the OL Silver from Richard at Inspire he mounted and set up the arm on the Technics that I also purchased from him. On my return home I found that the arm had been incorrectly set up and I spent a lot of time setting up the arm properly. Richard is a really nice guy but I'm not sure his technical abilities match his enthusiasm. He told me that an issue with static that I had with my previous LP12 that he had just upgraded for me was not something he had heard about before!!!
I suggest that you get the arm re-installed. It is IMO unlikely to be the bearings as this would effect the whole LP not just end of side and as already been stated the arm is built like a "Brick Out-House" It might be well worth contacting Origin Live for their opinion.

Clive

[andybee33]

Thanks chaps.

Clive, yes I got the arm fitted and set up by Richard as well - so that's interesting to hear.

Based on the helpful feedback from everyone, I plan to do the following in this order:

1 -Check the tracking weight - I've just ordered some scales as I didn't have any
2 - Check the alignment with a protractor - I'm sure I got one with my Hifi News 'Test' LP.

If the above don't fix things, I'm going to send the Arm to OL and get it checked out. The last thing I want to do is wreck my stylus!

will post up my findings as and when I, erm, find them!

A

[Ammonite Audio]

Hi Andy

When I bought the OL Silver from Richard at Inspire he mounted and set up the arm on the Technics that I also purchased from him. On my return home I found that the arm had been incorrectly set up and I spent a lot of time setting up the arm properly. Richard is a really nice guy but I'm not sure his technical abilities match his enthusiasm. He told me that an issue with static that I had with my previous LP12 that he had just upgraded for me was not something he had heard about before!!!
I suggest that you get the arm re-installed. It is IMO unlikely to be the bearings as this would effect the whole LP not just end of side and as already been stated the arm is built like a "Brick Out-House" It might be well worth contacting Origin Live for their opinion.

Clive

With respect, that is not quite correct. If there is a bit of contamination in a bearing race, it can 'stick' at one particular point. A friend had loads of such problems with a much more expensive OL arm, so it's certainly not unknown.

[Clive197]

With respect, that is not quite correct. If there is a bit of contamination in a bearing race, it can 'stick' at one particular point. A friend had loads of such problems with a much more expensive OL arm, so it's certainly not unknown.

I will bow to your experience, in which case, definatly a chat with OL is required.

[DSJR]

Rega arms don't usually suffer from sticky bearings, so another mark down to the tonearm bodgers who think they can do better in engineering terms than Rega can. Sonics are personal, but how can adding a massive tube resonance or two right in the midrange make it 'better?'

My personal advice would be to get the arm fixed, if indeed it has sticky bearings (balance out the arm so the stylus is clear of the mat, take the arm to the centre and see how free it is in returning to the rest) and replace it with a pukka Rega arm, or possibly better for the LP12, a Michell Techno-Arm, which is 'bodging' done right and apparently then assembled and tested at Rega by people well used to building these things!

[krugdoktor]

Try to look at the underside of the armtube if it touches the armlift during it's travel across the record.

[Ammonite Audio]

Try to look at the underside of the armtube if it touches the armlift during it's travel across the record.

Good point.

[Clive197]

Rega arms don't usually suffer from sticky bearings, so another mark down to the tonearm bodgers who think they can do better in engineering terms than Rega can. Sonics are personal, but how can adding a massive tube resonance or two right in the midrange make it 'better?'

My personal advice would be to get the arm fixed, if indeed it has sticky bearings (balance out the arm so the stylus is clear of the mat, take the arm to the centre and see how free it is in returning to the rest) and replace it with a pukka Rega arm, or possibly better for the LP12, a Michell Techno-Arm, which is 'bodging' done right and apparently then assembled and tested at Rega by people well used to building these things!

So what have you got against Origin Live, they have a good reputation both in the trade and the public. I'm on my second OL arm and had/have no issues with either. Mark at OL seems to know his onions on the number of conversations I've had with him and I'm thinking of upgradeing my Encounter to the latest 'C' spec. Rega arms, like Technics seem to respond very well to fettling as many users on this forum can attest.

[DSJR]

So what have you got against Origin Live, they have a good reputation both in the trade and the public. I'm on my second OL arm and had/have no issues with either. Mark at OL seems to know his onions on the number of conversations I've had with him and I'm thinking of upgradeing my Encounter to the latest 'C' spec. Rega arms, like Technics seem to respond very well to fettling as many users on this forum can attest.


Look at reviews, speak to reviewers who know what goes on and also look at the finish! Like I said, change to a Techno Arm or something 'better' that will sadly cost rather more!

Like I said, making a pretty inert arm sing along madly with the music isn't 'High Fidelity' in my book. Sorry!

[andybee33]

Try to look at the underside of the armtube if it touches the armlift during it's travel across the record.

Blimey yes! That's the very first thing I'll do! I'm embarrassed that I didn't think of that. I'm working away from home today, which is infuriating as I'd have a 600 mile round trip this evening to do it. It will need to wait until tomorrow evening.

I actually remember on my old Rega RB300, there was a rubber strip in the armlift and it was a tiny bit too long so it stuck up a little at the 'inside' end. In that case, it actually lifted the arm slightly clear of the groove but, if the problem was just a little less bad it could maybe be the cause. Part of me hopes this is the issue (as it's an easy fix) and part of me doesn't (as I'll look like a prawn!).

So, the new plan for this weekend is:

1 - Check the armrest isn't interfering with the tube
2 - Check the tracking weight
3 - Check the alignment
4 - Check the arm returns nicely/freely to the rest from a floating position midway across the radius of the platter
5 - If nothing else works, send arm to OL

I'm afraid that I'm not qualified to comment on the relative merits of Rega, Michell and OL though I've had 3 Rega arms in the past and they've always been great. I do however think that the OL is more nicely finished from an aesthetic POV. I should add that I was originally planning to get an Audiomods upgrade done on my RB300 when Clive's OL Sliver Mk2 came up and seemed like an attractive and rather simpler alternative!

thanks :)

[337alant]

The arm floating test with no anti skate will show a sticky bearing or a trapped wire in the arm, don't forget to put your stylus guard on :eek:
also with the arm floating drop a 1cm square of paper on the head shell and the arm should pivot up and down freely as well

Do a full check on alignment and tracking on a test disc at the inner, centre and outer grooves.
Do a thouroug clean of he tip and look at it with a good pocket mic could be a build of crud on one side of he stylus




Alan

[aniki]

Rega arms don't usually suffer from sticky bearings, so another mark down to the tonearm bodgers who think they can do better in engineering terms than Rega can. Sonics are personal, but how can adding a massive tube resonance or two right in the midrange make it 'better?'

My personal advice would be to get the arm fixed, if indeed it has sticky bearings (balance out the arm so the stylus is clear of the mat, take the arm to the centre and see how free it is in returning to the rest) and replace it with a pukka Rega arm, or possibly better for the LP12, a Michell Techno-Arm, which is 'bodging' done right and apparently then assembled and tested at Rega by people well used to building these things!

I would have fully supported these comments 15 years ago during the 'RB250 downgrade era' but today they are simply not relevant.
I trust no reviews but my own and now myself and several of my colleagues all run OL arms as a preference to many more popular offerings.
I make no secret of the fact that OL are a horrendous company to deal with and my recent experience has been without doubt the most unpleasant experience of my hifi buying and selling life, but when it comes to the products, they really are incredible.
Alas, I don't think OL will ever repair their bad reputation without a serious attitude adjustment.

[Clive197]

I would have fully supported these comments 15 years ago during the 'RB250 downgrade era' but today they are simply not relevant.
I trust no reviews but my own and now myself and several of my colleagues all run OL arms as a preference to many more popular offerings.
I make no secret of the fact that OL are a horrendous company to deal with and my recent experience has been without doubt the most unpleasant experience of my hifi buying and selling life, but when it comes to the products, they really are incredible.
Alas, I don't think OL will ever repair their bad reputation without a serious attitude adjustment.

Sounds like you spoke to Mark!

[paskinn]

My guess would be either the armrest getting in the way, or issues with the wiring round the bearing. I had this problem, not on a Origin Live arm, and the thin insulating coating had flaked a bit. There was not only gunge around the bearing, but the wire was making intermittent shorts, so you got odd noises and sporadic loss of signal.
Right sod to track down. That happened at certain points on the record. The internal wiring in an arm can be very fragile. Anyway, do let us know what the solution turns out to be, as it's an 'interesting' fault (unless you are the one suffering the problem!)
BTW: harsh stuff on OL; are they really that bad? They seem to have loyal customers so they must be doing something right.

[Marco]

I've never liked their modded Rega arms, finding them somewhat 'zingy' and bright sounding, but rate their own designed-from-the-ground-up tonearms. Yes, Mark Baker does seem to be one of those 'Marmite' type characters...

Marco.

[andybee33]

Hello chaps,

Well - my arm is all sorted. You'll never guess what - there were TWO things wrong with it! First of all, yes the armrest was snagging slightly, which explained the jumping issue - so thanks to krugdoktor :) There was what looked like a superfluous washer in the lift assembly to I took it out. The arm lift still works fine and now only lifts the arm when I ask it to - which is never as I just use my finger. However, having laughed at the simplicity of the problem, I put a record on and there was still a change in the sound as it moved across the record - becoming more 'vague'. Tracking weight was spot on (2.01g against a book figure of 2.00g) but the alignment turned out to be WAY out. The cart looks just to have been aligned to look pretty/straight in the headshell. I used the Hifi News test LP protractor (for the first time ever!) and, using both the Two Point technique and the Universal one, it was toed in too much to quite a large extent. After adjustment, the cart doesn't look quite as pretty in the headshell, but it erm sounds quite a lot better!! So much for professional setup.

Anyway - thanks for all the other ideas too - I'm a bit wiser now :) A

[Clive197]

Hello chaps,

Well - my arm is all sorted. You'll never guess what - there were TWO things wrong with it! First of all, yes the armrest was snagging slightly, which explained the jumping issue - so thanks to krugdoktor :) There was what looked like a superfluous washer in the lift assembly to I took it out. The arm lift still works fine and now only lifts the arm when I ask it to - which is never as I just use my finger. However, having laughed at the simplicity of the problem, I put a record on and there was still a change in the sound as it moved across the record - becoming more 'vague'. Tracking weight was spot on (2.01g against a book figure of 2.00g) but the alignment turned out to be WAY out. The cart looks just to have been aligned to look pretty/straight in the headshell. I used the Hifi News test LP protractor (for the first time ever!) and, using both the Two Point technique and the Universal one, it was toed in too much to quite a large extent. After adjustment, the cart doesn't look quite as pretty in the headshell, but it erm sounds quite a lot better!! So much for professional setup.

Anyway - thanks for all the other ideas too - I'm a bit wiser now :) A

Glad you got it sorted. Interesting that Robert installed your cartridge as he did mine. Both poorly done.

The washer issue is also interesting, as it was me that put it in after speaking to Mark Baker because the arm would not lift off the record, the small washer solved the problem which Mark sent me FOC. It is possible that the height of the lift is dependent on which deck the arm is mounted on. Mine was a Technics, yours is a a Linn.

[sq225917]

My experience of other peoples decks from Inspire has been poor. The worst LP12 I ever saw came set-up from them, just bloody inexcusably bad. Nice fella though, when he's not stealing ideas from other designers...

[Rush2112]

Set up can be everything ! Knowing how to get the best from a turntable arm and cartridge is well worth the effort whether it is sourcing the information yourself or finding the right dealer. I have heard some terrible set ups and know it's hard to put a price on the added value a dealer who knows what he is doing can bring to the end result !