View Full Version : Denon 103 vs 103R
Can anyone tell me what the differences are between the Denon103 and Denon 103r and how this difference affects acoustic presentation of the cartridge? Are both these cartridges still available?
Wakefield Turntables
05-04-2015, 09:43
I think that one has very pure copper and the other dosent. Yep both still available as far as I can remember.
walpurgis
05-04-2015, 11:11
They do sound different. They share the punchy bass character and there's some similarity in the decent mid presentation, but the 'R' is considerably better, far more refined, detailed and cleaner at the top and I'd say more open sounding. I've used both side by side. The 'R' is well worth the extra money over the basic 103 and has little or no real competition at its price.
They do sound different. They share the punchy bass character and there's some similarity in the decent mid presentation, but the 'R' is considerably better, far more refined, detailed and cleaner at the top and I'd say more open sounding. I've used both side by side. The 'R' is well worth the extra money over the basic 103 and has little or no real competition at its price.
+1
337alant
08-04-2015, 18:41
Thanks for this thread Jim I'm very interested in the Denon 103 so Ill go for the 103R in stead
Alan
Thanks for this thread Jim I'm very interested in the Denon 103 so Ill go for the 103R in stead
Alan
I've a 103 coming this week, hopefully, can't wait to hear it:cool:
Hi Alan, yes considering the 103R but also interested in the Zu 103R. I did really like Marco's DL-S1 at NEBO but this does cost considerably more and not sure if still available?:scratch:
Wakefield Turntables
08-04-2015, 19:33
I miss my old 103 so I have just bought a 103R for my SME 3012 / Valve setup. :eek:
I miss my old 103 so I have just bought a 103R for my SME 3012 / Valve setup. :eek:
Let us know your thoughts on how this sounds with your valve set up. Are you using the Croft and if so what SUT /Head amp you using?
Wakefield Turntables
09-04-2015, 07:40
Let us know your thoughts on how this sounds with your valve set up. Are you using the Croft and if so what SUT /Head amp you using?
Yeah using croft micro basic 25 and the ortofon st80se SUT. Previous carts have sounded very good indeed with this setup.
Guys
Just owned a denon 103R. Its really a good cart. First of all it has a warm sound. It makes you feel that you are listening a vinyl.
But ı wonder with which settings we can get %100 of its performance. I mean vta, vtf, how much ohms etc? For xample ı heard that it is recommended to increase the arm to have better performance. Has anyone experienced any of these?
Thanks a lot.
anubisgrau
09-04-2015, 22:08
Guys
Just owned a denon 103R. Its really a good cart. First of all it has a warm sound. It makes you feel that you are listening a vinyl.
But ı wonder with which settings we can get %100 of its performance. I mean vta, vtf, how much ohms etc? For xample ı heard that it is recommended to increase the arm to have better performance. Has anyone experienced any of these?
Thanks a lot.
buy yourself a heavy 12" denon arm. everything else is of secondary importance if you haven't done that.
Just received my new (to me) Denon 103 with isokinetic weight stuck to it, cart and weight and fixings are about 13g and along with my headshell (MS HA-202) the combined weight is about 23.5g.
I've mounted it on my MS MA-202 arm and used the supplementary weight for the back of the tonearm to balance out the cart and first impressions are very very good, I'm listening to a stereo version of Kind Of Blue through the MC module of my Quad 34 pre-amp.
Sound is quite old fashioned but in a good way, quite dark, I think, like being in a nightclub, losts of low notes kind off heavy sounding I think but not horrible or anything like it just different sounding from my Reson MM cart.
Bass is full and piano is pretty good to, think I like this cart with jazz.
Should I add more weight to the headshell guys, I've a 3g technics weight that I could use and that will get the arm up at the cart end slightly too?
Surface noise is almost non-existant on this record which is an old 1964 CBS pressing but I know it well.
I'm tracking at 2.5g with the anti skate the same, dead easy to set this up on the MS arm BTW.
Toe tapping stuff this cart.
Tony
Just received my new (to me) Denon 103 with isokinetic weight stuck to it, cart and weight and fixings are about 13g and along with my headshell (MS HA-202) the combined weight is about 23.5g.
I've mounted it on my MS MA-202 arm and used the supplementary weight for the back of the tonearm to balance out the cart and first impressions are very very good, I'm listening to a stereo version of Kind Of Blue through the MC module of my Quad 34 pre-amp.
Sound is quite old fashioned but in a good way, quite dark, I think, like being in a nightclub, losts of low notes kind off heavy sounding I think but not horrible or anything like it just different sounding from my Reson MM cart.
Bass is full and piano is pretty good to, think I like this cart with jazz.
Should I add more weight to the headshell guys, I've a 3g technics weight that I could use and that will get the arm up at the cart end slightly too?
Surface noise is almost non-existant on this record which is an old 1964 CBS pressing but I know it well.
I'm tracking at 2.5g with the anti skate the same, dead easy to set this up on the MS arm BTW.
Toe tapping stuff this cart.
Tony
Thanks for the mini review Tony
Thanks for the mini review Tony
Thanks Jim, I've put the 3g weight on the cart/headshell and the total weight of cart & headshell now is 26.5g, the Micro Seiki arm is a dream to use BTW but it would have been difficult, I think, without the supplementary weight which came with the arm however I've seen those sell for about £60 on e-bay, great design though, the SW just screws into the tonearm at the rear and the main weight just slides over it so that you can get the main weight back far enough to balance the arm.
I'm not noticing much difference between the two different cart/headshell (23.5g vs 26.5g) weights though.
Sound is good with both, maybe a bit lighter sounding with the heavier weight combo, less dark I think, piano is a bit recessed compared to the lighter weight.
Tony
Some photos
http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Tony_Cosgrove/Denon%203_zpscwavvby6.jpg (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Cosgrove/media/Denon%203_zpscwavvby6.jpg.html)
http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Tony_Cosgrove/Denon%202_zpsh8redi35.jpg (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Cosgrove/media/Denon%202_zpsh8redi35.jpg.html)
http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Tony_Cosgrove/Denon%205_zpsdrjspzh0.jpg (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Cosgrove/media/Denon%205_zpsdrjspzh0.jpg.html)
http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Tony_Cosgrove/Denon%204_zpsozfvyuun.jpg (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Cosgrove/media/Denon%204_zpsozfvyuun.jpg.html)
buy yourself a heavy 12" denon arm. everything else is of secondary importance if you haven't done that.
Thanks. Sounds like an important advise but my TT is not designed for 12'.
It has 8' arm.
Tony I am using a VPI Scout with 9 inch tonearm JMW 9T - Unipivot design and has effective mass of 10g. Internally damped - any idea if this would be OK to use wih the 103?
Tony I am using a VPI Scout with 9 inch tonearm JMW 9T - Unipivot design and has effective mass of 10g. Internally damped - any idea if this would be OK to use wih the 103?
Hi Jim, sorry I've no idea mate but give it a go, there's an excellent thread on here about Denon 103s and Rs etc, I'll see if I can find it and post it here.
Apparently my own arm, a Micro Seiki MA-202 is made for a Denon 103 which is why I wanted to try it and they both do seem to be very good with each other but from reading that thread the consensus is a to use a really heavy headshell, something in the 18g range from the likes of Denon or AT and as posted above a 12" arm from the seventies.
I've been looking at cheap SUTs but your talking at least £200 for a Denon one and to be honest my set up sounds okay at the minute.
I've been listening to the cart all afternoon and have to say that it sounds great with jazz, it's maybe not as refined as my usual cart which is a Reson Reca MM, there's isn't the same shimmer from cymbals etc but for bass and taming trumpet high notes then the Denon is very very good.
Not tried it with vocals yet but will do that shortly.
BTW, Jim the Denon is a big bulky cart that sits pretty low down on the record or close to the record if you know what I mean?
Tony
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?35814-Denon-DL103-or-103R&highlight=denon+103
Wakefield Turntables
11-04-2015, 08:31
My 103r arrived today. I bought it for a bit of fun. Can't wait to hear what this cart sounds like over the stock 103.
walpurgis
11-04-2015, 09:54
My 103r arrived today. I bought it for a bit of fun. Can't wait to hear what this cart sounds like over the stock 103.
You'll hear a BIG difference! :)
Been listening to the Denon 103 over the weekend and it's something else, sounds great with jazz but not so great with other stuff I've listened to but it's excellent with mono recordings, really really good.
My first impressions are great bass, piano (bass notes), drums are good including rim-shots but not so good at displaying high frequencies such as cymbols and strings.
I've increased the tracking weight slightly to 2.7g and that's helped.
My go to record is KOB, I have a CBS stereo version from 1964 & the recent 2013 record store day re-mastered mono, the mono version sounds way better, you can hear that sound of the reed being blown in the sax, the cymbols however sound a bit flat with no shimmer, piano notes are good though and there is a decent pace to the music.
Miles Davis' trumpet sounds a bit distorted on Freddie Freeloader and the high frequencies are in the background and quite recessed.
Soundstage is good though but it's right between the speakers, in fact the entire band sounds like they're all in front of me quite close together.
Still sounds good though but diffferent from what I'm used to hearing.
Tony
Wakefield Turntables
12-04-2015, 19:08
I listened to my 103R today. Its mounted on one of these
http://www.ortofon-shop.com/shop/treasure-trove/mc-kontrapunkt-h?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_lite_pdf.tpl&product_id=172&category_id=47
I plonked it on my Garrard 301/SME 3013 setup and squirted it through one of these
http://www.ortofon-shop.com/shop/treasure-trove/mc-kontrapunkt-h?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_lite_pdf.tpl&product_id=177&category_id=46
It sounded excellent. Really surprised by who this little cart performs. I've heard carts costing >£1K sounding worse.
+1 if you wanna buy one and have some fun.
walpurgis
12-04-2015, 19:28
It sounded excellent. Really surprised by who this little cart performs.
Told ya! ;)
I listened to my 103R today. Its mounted on one of these
http://www.ortofon-shop.com/shop/treasure-trove/mc-kontrapunkt-h?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_lite_pdf.tpl&product_id=172&category_id=47
I plonked it on my Garrard 301/SME 3013 setup and squirted it through one of these
http://www.ortofon-shop.com/shop/treasure-trove/mc-kontrapunkt-h?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_lite_pdf.tpl&product_id=177&category_id=46
It sounded excellent. Really surprised by who this little cart performs. I've heard carts costing >£1K sounding worse.
+1 if you wanna buy one and have some fun.
Only problem I may have would be using the VPI JMW 9T tonearm/headshell with this cartridge -not enough mass:scratch:
However I have an idea how to sort my Croft pre for MC without resorting to headamp or SUT:eyebrows:
Mike Adams
12-04-2015, 19:44
There is a lot more difference between the 103 and 103r than is made out IMHO, firstly the loading is different but the voice-ing also.
I had a nude 103 which I loved, had great bass and very enjoyable to listen to, not fussy with SUTs all OK.
I then went all out with a MIDAS, paratrace, sapphire cantilever 103R and its taken a lot of messing with SUTs and the loading to get the enjoyment back. It (the 103R) has a more detailed top end that can sound false and make the tonal balance a little thin...
There is a lot more difference between the 103 and 103r than is made out IMHO, firstly the loading is different but the voice-ing also. It (the 103R) has a more detailed top end that can sound false and make the tonal balance a little thin...
Spot on, Mike. Much as I like the 'R', that's also my experience, and why many DL-103 aficionados stick with the stock model :)
Marco.
walpurgis
12-04-2015, 20:10
Strange. I found the 103R quite rich sounding in my system. Varying effects of different phono stages and SUTs I reckon.
It *is*, compared with many of today's MCs, but it's quite markedly more forward and 'spotlit' sounding than the stock 103, and that (when set-up and partnered properly) isn't exactly dull.
Much of this, however, will be taste and system dependent. I've always found that the stock 103 boogies better and has the more 'mellifluous' midrange, which is why I use one of those and not the 'R'.
Marco.
I put on a second pressing of Ziggy Stardust after KOB, I know this record really well and whilst Bowie's vocals were pretty good the bass overwhelms everything else really, there's a veil over the music that I can't seem to shift.
I've tried the tonearm tail up and it did sound a wee bit better but nothing special, certainly not as good with this sort of music as it is with jazz, I don't think I'm getting much of a midrange either, sounds like I'm listening to an old wireless at times.
Think I'll take some weight off the headshell and see if that helps at the moment the headshell and cart weigh about 26.5g, tracking weight is about 2.7g.
I'll say one thing though surface noise is pretty non-existant and the cart tracks like a train.
Remind me again of your T/T and tonearm, Tony? Also, your phono stage.
Marco.
Remind me again of your T/T and tonearm, Tony? Also, your phono stage.
Marco.
Hi Marco, T/T is a technic SL-1200 & tonearm is Micro Sieki MA-202, headshell is Micro Sieki HS-202 (10.5g) and the 103 came with an isokinetic 4g weight glued to the top of the cart, phono stage is a Quad MC module for my Quad 34 pre-amp.
MC module is the middle one here
http://www.vinylconnections.co.uk/quad34mc.htm
Cheers, Tony. Well, it defo isn't the tonearm, which is a cracker and well-suited to the 103. Doubt it's the headshell either, which should 'marry' perfectly with the tonearm, and there's enough mass there too, for the 103s needs.
My suspicion would be a lack of synergy with the Quad. It's also well-known and accepted that the 103 prefers valve phono stages and/or the use of a head-amp/SUT, via an MM input, rather than solely fed through an active MC stage.
Not sure how much of a keeper the Quad is for you, but it's likely that you won't hear the full potential of the 103 until you try it as described above :)
Can you experiment with loading on the Quad? That's also a potential issue... What's the 103 being loaded at now, through it?
Marco.
walpurgis
12-04-2015, 21:42
It could be an LF resonance affecting the lower bass end. Experimenting with a bit more headshell mass may drop it below audiblity (Just hope your records aren't warped). Or, as you have in mind, a bit less mass could help. I'd also try a different headshell.
Cheers, Tony. Well, it defo isn't the tonearm, which is a cracker and well-suited to the 103. Doubt it's the headshell either, which should 'marry' perfectly with the tonearm, and there's enough mass there too, for the 103s needs.
My suspicion would be a lack of synergy with the Quad. It's also well-known and accepted that the 103 prefers valve phono stages and/or the use of a head-amp/SUT, via an MM input, rather than solely fed through an active MC stage.
Not sure how much of a keeper the Quad is for you, but it's likely that you won't hear the full potential of the 103 until you try it as described above :)
Can you experiment with loading on the Quad? That's also a potential issue... What's the 103 being loaded at now, through it?
Marco.
Hi Marco, the Quad pre has been extensively modded by Rob from PFM (The Quad Guy) it was his amp so it is a keeper.
Regarding the MC on the Quad I found this post below from Rob on a similar thread but it pretty much explains the loading etc on the MC card.
Suspect that I'm going to have to go down the SUT or Headamp route by the looks of it, I'm reading headamp for SS amps rather than SUTs which are meant to be good with valve phono stages?
"The MC cards operate in the same way as the MM and the differences are purely gain and loading. Just like with the MM card you can tweak the loading as the input cap and resistor sits in the same place on the card.
Generally makes little difference with most MCs though some of the higher output types like lighter loading of around 1k with the capacitance backed-off.
Quad made three cards with differing gain - 100,200,400uv.
The 200uv card is the most common and was supplied as standard. It suits most MCs.
A few such as Lyra, some special VHDs and Koetsu are better with the 400uv card.
Personally I'd recommend using a transformer with very low output MCs such as the ANs and some of the older Ortofons, or Denon 304 etc.
These cards are just head amps dealing with front end gain and load.
The RIAA and final gain is performed on the main board. This is unlike the Quad 44 where everything is on the card, though it's actually the same circuit, so what you can do to the 34 also applies to the 44."
Ah, ok... Rob certainly knows his stuff, although he's not a big fan of the 103.
Rob's more an AT kinda guy, so it's possible that he may have 'voiced' the Quad to optimise the sonic signature of those types of cartridges. If that's the case, there's not a lot you can do unless you're handy with an soldering iron, and can change some caps to alter the sonic characteristics of the amp, or resistors to change the loading value.
IME, most Denons like 100ohms loading, which seems to 'flesh out' the sound nicely and at the same time slightly tame any raggedness in the top end, allowing music to flow nicely. The current fixed 200ohms setting could be the culprit, in that respect.
One way to alter that, of course, would be to use a head amp that loads the cartridge at 100ohms. If Jerry ever sells his little Lentek, grab that, or search ebay and see if you can find one. I suspect that it would work a treat with the Quad and your 103 :)
Marco.
Ah, ok... Rob certainly knows his stuff, although he's not a big fan of the 103.
Rob's more an AT kinda guy, so it's possible that he may have 'voiced' the Quad to optimise the sonic signature of those types of cartridges. If that's the case, there's not a lot you can do unless you're handy with an soldering iron, and can change some caps to alter the sonic characteristics of the amp, or resistors to change the loading value.
IME, most Denons like 100ohms loading, which seems to 'flesh out' the sound nicely and at the same time slightly tame any raggedness in the top end, allowing music to flow nicely. The current fixed 200ohms setting could be the culprit, in that respect.
One way to alter that, of course, would be to use a head amp that loads the cartridge at 100ohms. If Jerry ever sells his little Lentek, grab that, or search ebay and see if you can find one. I suspect that it would work a treat with the Quad and your 103 :)
Marco.
Hi Marco, think you may be right there about the AT voicing thing.
Here's the specs for the Quad Pre from the original advert by Robert, might be why my Reson cart sounds so good with the Quad's MM card.
Tony
"This was my personal Quad 34 and has been extensively rebuilt with:
- Fully rebuilt PSU
- CMOS 4066 ICs upgraded to socketed Maxim low impedance, low THD version.
- Line stages upgraded with OPA134/2134 devices.
- Film output caps.
- Upgraded coupling caps, some replaced with wire links where appropriate.
- Rebuilt phono stage with metal can LME49710HA devices (with PSU bypass caps). Very low noise.
- Improved low end extension on the phono stage.
- 1.5 output to suit most power amps
Comes with the optional MC card, plus upgraded MM card set to work with most Ortofon, AT and Goldring cartridges.
So about the highest spec 34 you'll find."
ChrisKemp
12-04-2015, 22:17
I have had both 103 and 103R with great result in my current set up. But one must be exact with the set up. I had arm level flat, perfect azimuth, 2,5g VTF and correct overhang. It does sound ok new, then it got a little worse (shut in and bass was a little flat) and after about 25 hours it suddenly opened up. I loaded the 103R with 1000 ohm for the best result.
With both my 103s it came with a test graph. Almost perfect channel balance. And a very flat freq curve. That flat freq curve is actually tested with 47k ohm load! So often a high load on the 103s will result in a flat freq curve. 100 ohm was to me very dull. At 250 ohm it opened up but with 1000 ohm it was a really rocking!
Also, remember to keep the tip clean. Brushes never did it for me. Looking at the diamond thrugh a magnifying glass just showed alo og gunk. I now use Onzow Zerodust:) Great with my London Decca, too, but one day I must get a DL-103 again...
Hi Marco, think you may be right there about the AT voicing thing.
Here's the specs for the Quad Pre from the original advert by Robert, might be why my Reson cart sounds so good with the Quad's MM card.
Tony
"This was my personal Quad 34 and has been extensively rebuilt with:
- Fully rebuilt PSU
- CMOS 4066 ICs upgraded to socketed Maxim low impedance, low THD version.
- Line stages upgraded with OPA134/2134 devices.
- Film output caps.
- Upgraded coupling caps, some replaced with wire links where appropriate.
- Rebuilt phono stage with metal can LME49710HA devices (with PSU bypass caps). Very low noise.
- Improved low end extension on the phono stage.
- 1.5 output to suit most power amps
Comes with the optional MC card, plus upgraded MM card set to work with most Ortofon, AT and Goldring cartridges.
So about the highest spec 34 you'll find."
Yup, Tony, I think we could both be right.
No doubt Rob's modded Quad is a fab sounding preamp, by any standards, but he'll have effectively 'voiced' it to suit how he thinks it sounds best (as well as what measures correctly), and suited his vinyl set-up at the time. The "Improved low end extension on the phono stage", I think is an example of such voicing, as AT cartridges have a lean balance, and so he'll have taken steps to counteract that.
However, Denons are the opposite, especially the 103, which has a hugely extended and 'bouncy' bass, and so certainly doesn't any 'help' in that area! :nono:
For me, you're going to have to experiment with loading and/or try some head amps (with variable loading adjustment offered) before you'll sort your current issue and hear the 103 at its best, which I can tell you your arm and T/T will love when things are sorted, and have you dancing in the isles! :trust:
Marco.
I have had both 103 and 103R with great result in my current set up. But one must be exact with the set up. I had arm level flat, perfect azimuth, 2,5g VTF and correct overhang. It does sound ok new, then it got a little worse (shut in and bass was a little flat) and after about 25 hours it suddenly opened up. I loaded the 103R with 1000 ohm for the best result.
With both my 103s it came with a test graph. Almost perfect channel balance. And a very flat freq curve. That flat freq curve is actually tested with 47k ohm load! So often a high load on the 103s will result in a flat freq curve. 100 ohm was to me very dull. At 250 ohm it opened up but with 1000 ohm it was a really rocking!
Also, remember to keep the tip clean. Brushes never did it for me. Looking at the diamond thrugh a magnifying glass just showed alo og gunk. I now use Onzow Zerodust:) Great with my London Decca, too, but one day I must get a DL-103 again...
Hi Chris,
I agree with everything there, apart from the 1000ohms loading! :eek:
In over 25 years of using all manner of DL-103s, I've never loaded them up like that. The highest was 250ohms, but in general, I usually find 100ohms is best (which incidentally is what Denon's own SUTs/head amps are supplied set at, so you'd have to ask yourself why that is?)
100ohms here, with any DL-103 I've used, has never sounded dull - far from it! I couldn't live with a sound like that. It's a simply a matter of getting the phono stage and/or preamp right.
Marco.
ChrisKemp
13-04-2015, 06:25
With many MC carts the manufactorer recommend a loading that is an avarage load that they know will suit most systems. The recommended load, as you know, does not have to be the most optimal loading in a given system. Some like it higher or lower. Look at Lyras (reccomend 90-1000 ohms by hearing)...It is also system and Riaa depended what load to use and what load is sounding the best in a spesific system. But in my system the high load gave the flatest response on both the 103s:)
I couldn“t find the test graph for a 103, but I found a similar test sheet for a Denon DL-S1 that comes with the cart bundle:
http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=3771&f=DL-S1_Freq_Response0001.jpg
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vinyl&m=1094591
ChrisKemp
13-04-2015, 06:30
Ah, found one. Here is a thread that might be known and has some of the findings I experienced with the 103 and 103R:
Check out how Denon is testing to get the flat freq response:
http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=3771&f=DL-103R.JPG
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vinyl&m=749693
Yup, Tony, I think we could both be right.
No doubt Rob's modded Quad is a fab sounding preamp, by any standards, but he'll have effectively 'voiced' it to suit how he thinks it sounds best (as well as what measures correctly), and suited his vinyl set-up at the time. The "Improved low end extension on the phono stage", I think is an example of such voicing, as AT cartridges have a lean balance, and so he'll have taken steps to counteract that.
However, Denons are the opposite, especially the 103, which has a hugely extended and 'bouncy' bass, and so certainly doesn't any 'help' in that area! :nono:
For me, you're going to have to experiment with loading and/or try some head amps (with variable loading adjustment offered) before you'll sort your current issue and hear the 103 at its best, which I can tell you your arm and T/T will love when things are sorted, and have you dancing in the isles! :trust:
Marco.
Thanks Marco, I've been looking at SUTs specifically the Fidelity Research FRT-3 but as I understand it SUTs work better with valve MM phono amps and Headamps work with SS MM phono stages so, would that be right?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fidelity-Research-FR-FRT-3-MC-Step-Up-Toroidal-Transformer-w-Custom-CANRE-PIN-/251814461289?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3aa14fbf69
With many MC carts the manufactorer recommend a loading that is an avarage load that they know will suit most systems. The recommended load, as you know, does not have to be the most optimal loading in a given system. Some like it higher or lower. Look at Lyras (reccomend 90-1000 ohms by hearing)...It is also system and Riaa depended what load to use and what load is sounding the best in a spesific system. But in my system the high load gave the flatest response on both the 103s...
Yup, and all of that is absolutely fine. As they say, 'if it works, it works'. In my experience, and I've used every version of the DL-103 you can think of since 1982, I've never had to load any of them at 1k ohms, in order to 'escape from a dull sound'! ;)
Max has been 250ohms, and these days with the valve MM phono stage in my Croft preamp, used in conjunction with the Paul Hynes head amp (or Lentek head amp), both of which load the 103 at 100ohms, the sound is sublime (open, detailed, dynamic and punchy) :)
YMMV.
Marco.
Thanks Marco, I've been looking at SUTs specifically the Fidelity Research FRT-3 but as I understand it SUTs work better with valve MM phono amps and Headamps work with SS MM phono stages so, would that be right?
In general, yes, but nothing is written in stone. Since you're dipping your toes into the water for the first time, with this sort of stuff, my inclination would be that, with your set up, you should go for a good MC head amp, as opposed to an SUT. I'll have a look for you on ebay and post a link to something suitable.
I wouldn't go for the FR SUT you linked to, because if you look, you'll see that it's only giving you loading options of 10 and 30ohms, which is way too low for the 103. That SUT will have been primarily designed for use with very low-impedance cartridges, such as the Ortofon SPU and FR's own designs, which have similar electrical requirements.
Marco.
Are you guys prepared to consider a very different perspective? Are you familiar with 'Romy the Cat'? He has extreme views, even within a hobby full of quite extreme views. But I've come to suspect he has good ears and represents a different, but valid, view on audio.
His views on the Denons are expressed in a lively thread on his site ''goodsoundclub'. Be prepared to be very annoyed....... but don't let the annoying, strutting, tone obscure what he is actually arguing. He's no fool, although you wouldn't want to buy him a drink.
Yes, I've read that site before. As you say, all very entertaining... However, it serves no useful purpose other than that, if you're confident that your own ears [and experience] are every bit as good as his! ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
13-04-2015, 09:29
Thanks Marco, I've been looking at SUTs specifically the Fidelity Research FRT-3 but as I understand it SUTs work better with valve MM phono amps and Headamps work with SS MM phono stages so, would that be right?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fidelity-Research-FR-FRT-3-MC-Step-Up-Toroidal-Transformer-w-Custom-CANRE-PIN-/251814461289?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3aa14fbf69
I've been using an FRT-3 (amongst other SUTs) on and off for years with various MCs into either a Graham Slee ERA Gold V or Reflex M which are both solid state. These combinations work extremely well, giving a very open, smooth and detailed sound. The FRT-3 offers 10 ohm and 30 ohm settings. The 30 ohm position seems to suit most MCs very well (every MC I've tried with it actually) and it's a good sounding unit anyway, that works happily with the DL-103.
Well, Geoff, if that's true (and I trust your ears), then it just shows what a load of bollox cartridge loading is! Especially when you consider that Chris is recommending loading the 103 at 1k ohms (!), and now you're recommending an SUT that loads it at 10 or 30 ohms... :eek: ;)
Welcome to 'Discrepancy City', folks!! :lol:
Quite simply, 'on paper', loading a DL-103 at 10 or 30 ohms *shouldn't* work, but in your experience it obviously does.
Marco.
Tony, this is what I'd recommend using with your 103: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DENON-HA-1000-Moving-Coil-Cartridge-Head-Amplifier-w-Power-Supply-Rare-/141627538380?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20f9a8bbcc
I've had one before and they're truly superb :)
Marco.
Tony, this is what I'd recommend using with your 103: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DENON-HA-1000-Moving-Coil-Cartridge-Head-Amplifier-w-Power-Supply-Rare-/141627538380?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20f9a8bbcc
I've had one before and they're truly superb :)
Marco.
Hi Marco, thanks for that:cool:
A very kind AOS member has loaned me a pair of Ortofon T-5 trannies and a Denon AU-300LC SUT so will stick them into the system and report back later.
*Edit* fired in the Denon SUT and what a difference from before, midrange is back, sounds very like my Reson MM now but bass is a wee bit recessed so might need to remove the extra weight but sound so much better now,
No problemo - let us know how you get on :)
Marco.
Right guys, I fired the Ortofon T5s into the system and there was a huge amount of hum so I removed those and re-fitted the Denon SUT.
Listened to both sides of KOB, the stereo version, sounded good but bass still a bit recessed so I put on Bowie's Ziggy Stardust and it's just the same with recessed bass, sounds okay but there's definitely something missing, sparkle I think, snare drums are almost non-existing, it's like there's dirt on the stylus.
I've not put on KOB, the mono version, sounds shite:scratch:
Not great I have to say.
Ok, so what about this comment:
*Edit* fired in the Denon SUT and what a difference from before, midrange is back, sounds very like my Reson MM now but bass is a wee bit recessed so might need to remove the extra weight but sound so much better now...
It's difficult to correlate that with what's written in your last post... So, which is it: "so much better now", or "sounds shite"? ;)
Do bear in mind that the AU-300LC is nothing special, and simply Denon's entry-level SUT device, with tiny and rather mediocre transformers inside, and so I wasn't expecting miracles... For me, however, there's a fundamental mismatch somewhere between the cartridge and phono stage, and only when that's resolved will you hear what the 103 is capable of.
That's got be the reason why the Reson works so well, and the Denon doesn't! :)
Marco.
Ok, so what about this comment:
It's difficult to correlate that with what's written in your last post... So, which is it: "so much better now", or "sounds shite"? ;)
Do bear in mind that the AU-300LC is nothing special, and simply Denon's entry-level SUT device, with tiny and rather mediocre transformers inside, and so I wasn't expecting miracles... For me, there's a fundamental mismatch somewhere between the cartridge and phono stage, and only when that's resolved will you hear what the 103 is capable of.
That's got be the reason why the Reson works so well, and the Denon doesn't! :)
Marco.
Hi Marco the mono KOB sounds good through the 103 & denon sut but it sounded much better without the sut last night which is where the 'shite' bit comes in:D
I'll need to play about a bit more but I do think that your correct about an impedance mismatch in the system, I had that before last year and it drove me nuts, ended up selling two amps as a result:doh:
Yup, so keep us posted. However, when you do get things sorted, and you want to play with SUTs or head amps, you'll need to aim a bit higher than that little Denon.... ;)
Marco.
Yup, so keep us posted. However, when you do get things sorted, and you want to play with SUTs or head amps, you'll need to aim a bit higher than that little Denon.... ;)
Marco.
Just put the Reson back on the tonearm and whilst it's not a night and day difference the Reson sounds sweeter.
I'm listening to Bowie's Ziggy Stardust and I can hear more detail in the recording, there's more depth, vocals are a bit the same with both carts but the 'shimmer' is certainly back and the sound is better balanced I think, there's more of everything, drums sound clearer, guitar sounds where it should be and is certainly part of the recording not like with the Denon pushed into the background.
Bass isn't overwhelming either, instruments are seperate now not a closed in but pace is about the same with both carts, don't actually think that this recording is that great to be honest, I've another copy which I'll try later, it's an early dynaflex pressing but I've not hear that copy with the 103 yet.
Back to KOB mono now which is much better with the Reson, instruments are more defined, plenty of 'shimmer', high notes are nice and not shrill, pace is good and bass is nice and controlled.
No distortion on the trumpet on Freddie Freeloader either, I'm tracking at 1.6g with the Reson. This copy of KOB sounds great BTW and it's definitely not shite with the Reson:D
Certainly think the problem is down to a mismatch in my system as these are similar problems that I had last year though on that occasion I kept losing the left channel but there was a lot of distortion too with a valve phono amp however this sort of flat sounding thing that I'm hearing with the 103 is similar to the sounds I heard with the Reson playing through the integrated that I had at the time when I played the Reson through that amp's MM phono stage, it was like the life had been sucked out the music so much so that I was ready to chuck vinyl in then, pretty demoralising it was.
Ironically the valve phono stage ended up sounding amazing with the Quad pre-amp, which I had bought to replace the integrated but by that time I had flogged the valve phono stage and was just having a last couple of listens to it before packing it up.
Just a quick update for anyone not lost the will to live yet:eek:
I had a look at the stylus on the DL 103 and it looked a wee bit dirty (cart is actually mint) so I cleaned it with some AT 607 sytlus cleaning fluid and things have improved quite a bit.
I also removed the additional 3g Technics weight from the headshell and re-balanced the arm out, I played the stereo pressing of KOB and there isn't a whole lot of difference now between the Reson and the 103. I'm still using the Denon SUT into the Quad Pre-amp's MM stage.
Soundstage is similar, bass is now much more subtle and the midrange is pretty good, I can hear the rim-shots now too.
Switched to the Bowie album and it's definitely improved, much nicer now not muddy or veiled sounding, pace is good, voices are realistic, actually I like the sound of Bowie's voice with the 103, instruments are spaced out properly and the sound stage is good.
I can't believe it was just a dirty stylus that was causing the poor sounds earlier although in saying that the music did sound closed in.
Yep definitely not an awful lot between the carts now the Bowie record actually sounds better with the Denon more realistic sounding but a bit 'thick' sounding, bassy I suppose.
I put on the other Bowie pressing, the dynaflex one, and it sounds fantastic with the 103, the sparkle is there now and the sound stage is very good, I actually prefer this pressing to the second pressing 4E/6E one above which is my wife's personal copy bought when she was fourteen and played to death:eek: I've read that the dynaflex versions are very poor but that's not my experience although now I'm going to have to try it with Reson to compare against the 103 nowl.
I bought the cart from a guy on PFM who said it was a minter and it certainly looked very new when I received it however there is no Denon box or manual with the cart so just wondering if in fact it's still breaking in?
A dirty stylus? Lol........ :doh:
Marco.
A dirty stylus? Lol........ :doh:
Marco.
Aye, sounding like it:lol:
Which tablets are you on for numpty-itis? You need a stronger dose! :D
Marco.
Which tablets are you on for numpty-itis? You need a stronger dose! :D
Marco.
Sometimes you overlook the bloody obvious don't you?:doh:
Need to fire the Quad MC module back in to the 34 pre to see if that makes any difference.
Tell you what though the 103 does jazz really good, dirty needle notwithstanding, I've got KOB mono back on now and it sounds really very good indeed.
Floyddroid
14-04-2015, 09:33
Would love to hear a Zu audio rebuilt one. Anybody using one?
Can anyone tell me what the differences are between the Denon103 and Denon 103r and how this difference affects acoustic presentation of the cartridge? Are both these cartridges still available?
Would love to hear a Zu audio rebuilt one. Anybody using one?
The mate who let me borrow the SUTs has one, not heard it though and neither has he:)
Right guys, I've got the T5s in the system now and there's no hum, think I hooked them up to the Quad MC module yesterday rather than the MM module, head was up my arse I think anyway they sound great with the 103, best yet I think, really musical and great vocals.
I'm listening to Norah Jones Bluenote 32088 sounds very good, piano is excellent.
I'm going to try the 103 with the Quad MC module shortly so will update this thread then.
Tony
The Ortofon T5s are definitely better sounding to my ears than the Denon SUT, they sound great through the Quad pre amp's MM stage.
I would definitely buy these T5s over the Denon SUT, guitars are excellent, you can hear the strings being plucked and the brushes on the snare drum sounds really realistic.
walpurgis
14-04-2015, 16:45
Tony if you think the Ortofon T5 SUTs sound great, wait till you get a properly decent SUT. The T5s are a stopgap quality wise (as is the HA-T10 Sony variant). The inline 'can' Ortofons and Audio Technicas are not really an improvement. I've used them all and you can do far better without spending a fortune. Just try and hear a really decent SUT and you'll see what I mean. The difference can be amazing.
If you were nearer I'd pop round with a couple and blow your mind! :)
Tony if you think the Ortofon T5 SUTs sound great, wait till you get a properly decent SUT. The T5s are a stopgap quality wise (as is the HA-T10 Sony variant). The inline 'can' Ortofons and Audio Technicas are not really an improvement. I've used them all and you can do far better without spending a fortune. Just try and hear a really decent SUT and you'll see what I mean. The difference can be amazing.
If you were nearer I'd pop round with a couple and blow your mind! :)
Thanks Geoff, I'm really loving playing about with this cart, I paid literally buttons for it.
Bought off a guy on PFM and I doubt it's been used much.
I'm seriously considering the FR SUT BTW or one of these below
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171747390701?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
walpurgis
14-04-2015, 17:26
I'm seriously considering the FR SUT BTW or one of these below
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171747390701?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I've seem them. Cheap but an unknown quantity as far as I know. See if you can find reviews.
Personally, I'd pay the extra for this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-Fidelity-Research-FRT-3-Step-up-transformer-/201245692958?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2edb2d941e
Which I know works nicely with the DL-103. I know, I've got one (sold the 103s though). He's just reduced the price, but no doubt there'd be a little bit of duty to pay
Or this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Denon-AU-300-LC-OFC-step-up-transformer-/321723360144?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4ae834e390
Which is not quite as good, but is suited.
Firebottle
14-04-2015, 18:17
Tony from my knowledge of the Quad MC input card it has what I would consider to be a very large parallel input capacitor.
It is a 22 nanoFarad, whereas the 'norm' is generally accepted as a 1 nanoFarad capacitor. if you are trying the cart direct into the Quad MC card I would suggest getting this capacitor altered.
:) Alan
I've seem them. Cheap but an unknown quantity as far as I know. See if you can find reviews.
Personally, I'd pay the extra for this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-Fidelity-Research-FRT-3-Step-up-transformer-/201245692958?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2edb2d941e
Which I know works nicely with the DL-103. I know, I've got one (sold the 103s though). He's just reduced the price, but no doubt there'd be a little bit of duty to pay
Or this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Denon-AU-300-LC-OFC-step-up-transformer-/321723360144?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4ae834e390
Which is not quite as good, but is suited.
Hi Geoff, thanks again, I think I might make an offer on the FR however there's another one with canare plugs about the same price
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251814461289?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Re the Denon linked to, I'm very very familiar with that particular speciman:eyebrows:
walpurgis
14-04-2015, 19:08
The thing about used SUTs is it doesn't matter how many you invest in. Second hand one's are going up in value steadily and have more or less doubled in value in the last five years. They resell easily without a loss or even make a profit.
Tony from my knowledge of the Quad MC input card it has what I would consider to be a very large parallel input capacitor.
It is a 22 nanoFarad, whereas the 'norm' is generally accepted as a 1 nanoFarad capacitor. if you are trying the cart direct into the Quad MC card I would suggest getting this capacitor altered.
:) Alan
Thanks Alan, I've had a look on the card and can't see 'one single capacitor' however there are four blue blob like things all with the marking 22 n + something or other on all of them, I'm presuming they are what your referring to?
There's a schematic here Alan and a PDF for the MC module
http://www.keith-snook.info/quad-34-mods.html
Best is still this: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141627538380?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
...and it's a head amp, not an SUT - different sound entirely ;)
Depends how much you want to spend, though! Anyway, Tony, glad you seem to be well on your way now to sorting things :cool:
Marco.
Anyone know if this head amp would be suitable with a 103?
Thanks
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/TRIO-HIGH-SPEED-MC-MOVING-COIL-HEAD-AMPLIFIER-MODEL-KHA-50-WORLDWIDE-SHIPPING-/291414169360?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item43d9a35710
walpurgis
14-04-2015, 23:41
I've used one. Didn't rate it to be honest, the sound was a bit 'grey' and bland.
anubisgrau
14-04-2015, 23:56
there's many things that head amps can do well, but i yet have to hear a top HA to beat a top SUT, if the matching is correct. especially with 103, which aint easy on many levels.
FWIW, 103R is much easier job to get it right.
Thanks guys, appreciated.
Tony
there's many things that head amps can do well, but i yet have to hear a top HA to beat a top SUT, if the matching is correct. especially with 103, which aint easy on many levels.
You need to listen to one of the Paul Hynes head amps, with off-board linear PSU. Trust me, it leaves most SUTs in the weeds! ;)
Not cheap, though, at £1k (with an SR5 PSU), but the sound is STUNNING....
Tony, is your budget approx £250 for a head amp or SUT? If so, I'll have a look at some of my 'special websites' later and see if I can find something sexy for you :)
Marco.
Firebottle
15-04-2015, 06:53
, I'm presuming they are what your referring to?
No, the input loading caps are the silvery rectangular blocks closest to the input sockets, probably marked 0.022. Fit a couple of polystyrene 1nF and see how you go.
:) alan
No, the input loading caps are the silvery rectangular blocks closest to the input sockets, probably marked 0.022. Fit a couple of polystyrene 1nF and see how you go.
:) alan
Thanks Alan, I see them now, thought that was them from reading the schematic, can see the data on them too, say's 250 22n 250, any links to the 1nfs?
These ok?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Qty-10-1nF-1000pF-1-Tolerance-Polystyrene-Capacitors-Audio-Filter-Caps-/111397204253
You need to listen to one of the Paul Hynes head amps, with off-board linear PSU. Trust me, it leaves most SUTs in the weeds! ;)
Not cheap, though, at £1k (with an SR5 PSU), but the sound is STUNNING....
Tony, is your budget approx £250 for a head amp or SUT? If so, I'll have a look at some of my 'special websites' later and see if I can find something sexy for you :)
Marco.
Hi Marco, I'd maybe consider something in that price range but being completey honest I would likely throw that sort of dosh, along with the resale value of both carts (103 & Reson), into a better MM cart such as a Nag 500 or 2m black.
Hi guys, I stuck the Quad 34 MC module back into the Quad pre and hooked up the TT to the pre.
Sounds okay to be honest, I could live with it, maybe, but the sound is a bit recessed but for me so far the Ortofon T5 SUTs are by far the best sounding with the 103.
More bass with the MC module though and voices are a tad 'shouty'.
Certainly not as musical with the MC module, but it's not terrible by any means.
I really can't believe the problems I had initially were all down to a dirty stylus, I'm begining to think that maybe the cart was almost brand new and now the suspension has loosened off a bit, could that explain the initial sounds?
Fired the T5s back in with the MM module and much more musical, really nice sounds.
I'm listening to Norah Jones again this is as good as I've heard that record, lot of subtle stuff I've not heard before, I could easily live with this set up but I think I'll try Alan's suggestion re the caps on the MC coil and then I'll likely buy a FR SUT or another decent SUT.
Thanks
Tony
Firebottle
15-04-2015, 16:16
These ok?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Qty-10-1nF-1000pF-1-Tolerance-Polystyrene-Capacitors-Audio-Filter-Caps-/111397204253
Yes those are perfect. As you are buying 10 off you could also try fitting 2 to each channel, i.e. 1 or 2nF loading per channel.
:cool: Alan
Yes those are perfect. As you are buying 10 off you could also try fitting 2 to each channel, i.e. 1 or 2nF loading per channel.
:cool: Alan
Thanks Alan, how do you do that just solder two of them together then fit them at C1 & also at C2?
Tony
PS, the guy does 2.1nf caps too.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Close-High-Tolerance-Polystyrene-Audio-Capacitors-Various-Values-/120809463277?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item1c20ce1ded
there's many things that head amps can do well, but i yet have to hear a top HA to beat a top SUT, if the matching is correct. especially with 103, which aint easy on many levels.
FWIW, 103R is much easier job to get it right.
:) Fighting talk :) I just bought a second McKinnie RO III when it popped up cheap locally - based on the John Curl Vendetta design, by one of his ex-engineers in Swissieland. Easily beat my (admittedly DIY) SUTs.
Right guys, a bit of an update.
I asked on PF media for advice re the caps etc for the Quad MC module and a member there very kindly gave me some additional advice and suggested that I replace the two 100 ohm loading resisitors with 390 ohm or 470 ohm ones to better suit the Denon 103 and he very kindly sent me the caps and a load of different value resistors.
I also ordered some Audio Note Tantalum 390 ohm resistors myself from Hi-Fi collective on the advice from the PF member.
The caps and resistors arrived today so I did the mods and I'm very happy with the results, intitially I tried the 'normal' 390 ohm loading resistors and the sound was very good indeed then I replaced those with the Tantalum resistors and the sound lifted a bit more.
The sound is now easily as good as the sound with the Ortofon T5s, in fact I think it sounds better than with the T5s so I'm very very pleased.
I wouldn't mind hearing the 103 with a better SUT but I don't know if I want to go spending a few hundred quid just to see if I can beat the sound that I've now got from the Quad MC module.
Tony
wiicrackpot
20-04-2015, 22:51
Tony,
Glad to see you've received good advice and help from the PFM member,
sounds like you've hit the sweet spot, can i suggest to you to leave things as is?,
you'll be forever chasing your tail if you keep thinking 'what if', kick back and enjoy the tunes. :cool:
Thanks guys, I need to now swap the Reson cart back into the system to try to hear the differences between the two carts but my recollection of the Reson is that it pretty much sounds like the Denon however i think that the Denon is a bit more musical.
BTW, the PFM is also a member on AOS, Alan otherwise know as 337alant, thanks Alan.
Tony
PS Andy, just missed a Nag 500 MP, which was advertised on the Wam yesterday morning @ £200, it sold in about 5 mins:eek:
I load my Denon 103 with 390 Ohm + 7.5 nF.
337alant
29-04-2015, 06:06
Thanks guys, I need to now swap the Reson cart back into the system to try to hear the differences between the two carts but my recollection of the Reson is that it pretty much sounds like the Denon however i think that the Denon is a bit more musical.
BTW, the PFM is also a member on AOS, Alan otherwise know as 337alant, thanks Alan.
Tony
PS Andy, just missed a Nag 500 MP, which was advertised on the Wam yesterday morning @ £200, it sold in about 5 mins:eek:
Your very welcome Tony and pleased its making nice music.
Alan
I load my Denon 103 with 390 Ohm + 7.5 nF.
Hi Barry, I've now been loaned a 'The Head-TX4' SUT (going into the Quad MM module) and I have the Denon going into the 15ohm taps, sounds very good, I tried the 40ohm taps and those sounded great too however the modded Quad MC module sounds just as good as those taps IMO.
I've also just bought a Fidelity Research FRT-3 SUT from Australia, the FR is meant to sound great with the Denon so looking forward to trying that too.
I've been extremely lucky to have a fellow forum member who lives so close to me helping me out by loaning me his equipment so a big thanks to that member.
Tony
Your very welcome Tony and pleased its making nice music.
Alan
:cool:
I've been extremely lucky to have a fellow forum member who lives so close to me helping me out by loaning me his equipment so a big thanks to that member.
Is he a secret agent, lol? If not, who is he? :)
Anyway, Tony, glad you're getting there now with your 103. The rewards are significant when you get that little baby to sing! :cool:
Marco.
Is he a secret agent, lol? If not, who is he? :)
Anyway, Tony, glad you're getting there now with your 103. The rewards are significant when you get that little baby to sing! :cool:
Marco.
No secret Marco the guy just doesn't want to publish his gear on the internet so I have respected that however he has commented in the thread on the previous page:eyebrows:
Andy, wiicrackpot? That's the only feasible option I can see... I appreciate not wanting to publish your gear on the 'net, but if the person you're referring to is already an established member, then there's no reason not to name him, especially as he's clearly embracing the AoS community spirit :)
Marco.
wiicrackpot
29-04-2015, 09:47
Andy, wiicrackpot? That's the only feasible option I can see... I appreciate not wanting to publish your gear on the 'net, but if the person you're referring to is already an established member, then there's no reason not to name him, especially as he's clearly embracing the AoS community spirit :)
Marco.
Jeez!!!...there's no end to your talents Marco, trying to go incognito for a while but cover blown out of the reeds, :D
thought i'd help Tony on his quest plus i am not using my TT much nowadays due to work commitments and what nought,
like everyone on this thread, glad to help Tony, just hang on to it a long as you like till your FR comes.
Jeez!!!...there's no end to your talents Marco, trying to go incognito for a while but cover blown out of the reeds, :D
thought i'd help Tony on his quest plus i am not using my TT much nowadays due to work commitments and what nought,
like everyone on this thread, glad to help Tony, just hang on to it a long as you like till your FR comes.
Thanks Andy:cool:
wiicrackpot
29-04-2015, 09:58
Thanks Andy:cool:
No Probs, see you when you next do a fly-by and return it to me, :) at least you're familiar with the carpark now,
sorry i cannae have you up the house as it's always a tip and i don't know how to/have no inclination to do anything about it. :(
No Probs, see you when you next do a fly-by and return it to me, :) at least you're familiar with the carpark now,
sorry i cannae have you up the house as it's always a tip and i don't know how to/have no inclination to do anything about it. :(
I'm just sitting here listening to Otis Redding's Pain In My Heart, vinyl, an old French recording of The Dock Of The Bay (greatest hits) and the sound is astonishing through the Head SUT's 15 ohm taps, completey get why people continually buy these Denon 103 carts, wonderful, hairs on the back of your neck stuff. :cool:
The coil impedance of the Denon 103 is 40 Ohm. Japanese manufacturers tend to mark the input impedance of their SUTs as appropriate for the source - in this case "40 Ohm". The actual impedance presented by the SUT will be ~ 10x higher, i.e. ~ 400 Ohm. Hence my loading of my Denon 103 with 390 Ohm in the phonostage (equalisation amplifier).
Fidelity Research made some very good SUTs (for their own cartridges), so I would imagine the FRT-3 will work well with your Denon 103. Let us know how you get on with it.
Nice to see fellow AoS members helping out one another in this way. Well done Andy!
wiicrackpot
29-04-2015, 19:50
Thanks Barry, :)
Though i a am anti social but if i can help other like minded music lovers try things before they buy,
saves expensive mistakes, then i am good with it, if it can be disconnected or lifted, then borrow it no probs,
only thing i am reluctant is Cartridges but thats understandable.
The coil impedance of the Denon 103 is 40 Ohm. Japanese manufacturers tend to mark the input impedance of their SUTs as appropriate for the source - in this case "40 Ohm". The actual impedance presented by the SUT will be ~ 10x higher, i.e. ~ 400 Ohm. Hence my loading of my Denon 103 with 390 Ohm in the phonostage (equalisation amplifier).
Fidelity Research made some very good SUTs (for their own cartridges), so I would imagine the FRT-3 will work well with your Denon 103. Let us know how you get on with it.
Nice to see fellow AoS members helping out one another in this way. Well done Andy!
nearly bought one of those twice so far.;) third time lucky maybe :D
wiicrackpot
29-04-2015, 20:48
nearly bought one of those twice so far.;) third time lucky maybe :D
Hang tight Grant, if Tony's FR-T3 doesn't get on with his Quad module, he might sell it to you. :D
Hang tight Grant, if Tony's FR-T3 doesn't get on with his Quad module, he might sell it to you. :D
Really weird Andy, the guy messaged me yesterday (Tuesday) to say that he would post it tomorrow (Thursday) which is actually today, Wednesday:eek:
He's in Australia, should get by week past Wednesday:lol:
Really weird Andy, the guy messaged me yesterday (Tuesday) to say that he would post it tomorrow (Thursday) which is actually today, Wednesday:eek:
He's in Australia, should get by week past Wednesday:lol:
so it was you that bought that Ausie one...he reduced it and then it was gone...lol no worries, its gone to a good home and should do very well for you. Geoff has one as well.
so it was you that bought that Ausie one...he reduced it and then it was gone...lol no worries, its gone to a good home and should do very well for you. Geoff has one as well.
Hi Grant, I made three offers to buy the first time it was listed and he knocked each one back, think I bid more than I actually paid for it anyway he got in touch to ask would I pay $325 AU and I said I would and he relisted it at that price.
BTW, it was just recently repaired as it was dropping a channel, the guy appears to be a record dealer judging by his feedback.
There's three more of them for sale Grant, 2juki has a boxed one at about £250 and the other two are about £190 & £220 I think plus postage.
Geoff put me onto to the FR SUTs Grant, said they are very good with the 103s which is why I bought one.
Aye they're good..tbh my firebottle handles my MC perfect so I will save the cash for firebottle prephono[emoji12]
wiicrackpot
30-04-2015, 06:41
Really weird Andy, the guy messaged me yesterday (Tuesday) to say that he would post it tomorrow (Thursday) which is actually today, Wednesday:eek:
He's in Australia, should get by week past Wednesday:lol:
Not weird at all Tony, it's the time zone, if it's same as Asia, it's 8 hrs forward there,
it's not unusual to fly from there on Sunday evening for example,by the time you arrive in the UK, it's still Sunday, you're flying back in timezone, :)
Spent an afternoon today listening to the 103, I cleaned it then and realised that I had lost the right channel so started pulling out cables (as you do) plus I was getting a huge hum from The Head SUT but I've had this hum since I put it into the system anyway I found the problem which was a dodgy rca cable going from The Head to the MM module on my Quad pre.
I didn't have another set of RCA ICs but I do have a cheap pair of digital coax cables with RCA connectors so fired those onto The Head SUT and to the MM module and everything is working really well now with no hum.
I honestly don't understand why the 103 attracts so much negative comments from people (it's an old nail etc), in my system is just sounds fantastically natural with real balance, even through the Quad MC phono module it sounds excellent.
Really looking forward to hearing it with the FR SUT when it eventually arrives from Australia.
Speaking of SUTs, I don't think that I've ever seen so many for sale SH on the various HI-FI forums at the same time (think that I've counted six for sale in the past two or three days), typically this happens when I decided to buy one from e-bay:doh:
I honestly don't understand why the 103 attracts so much negative comments from people (it's an old nail etc), in my system is just sounds fantastically natural with real balance, even through the Quad MC phono module it sounds excellent.
+1. And it's been the same in every set-up I've put one in since 1982.... Glad you're getting there now, Tony. Experiencing the joys of top-notch vinyl replay is sometimes about getting the 'little things' right :)
Marco.
+1. And it's been the same in every set-up I've put one in since 1982.... Glad you're getting there now, Tony. Experiencing the joys of top-notch vinyl replay is sometimes about getting the 'little things' right :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco, I had a mod on the Wam tell me the other day that the 103 was nowhere near as good as a Reson Reco MM (we both have one) yet I would have to say that the 103 sounds possibly even better than the Reson which is is considered to be a top notch MM cart.
Can't quite get my head round that, either my hearing is away or his system wasn't set up for the 103 properly.
Indeed, or it could just be a personal taste thing...
The other thing is that some folk judge the 103 on how much it costs (thus equating performance with price), which is completely the wrong thing to do. The *only* reason the 103 costs as little as it does is because it's made by Denon, and thus subject to the benefits of 'economies of scale'. It's also been around since the 1960s, so any development costs have long since been paid for.
Trust me, every single part of that cartridge (excluding its plastic shell, which is where the main cost cutting has taken place, and where the biggest sonic gains are to be had by fitting something better) is top-notch, and if it were made by a 'boutique' Japanese cartridge manufacturer, and fitted with a high-quality aluminium shell, or similar, would cost many times what it does!
Therefore, the DL-103, price aside, should not be judged as a 'budget' cartridge. In the right system, suitably optimised (as you're finding out), it has a unique set of strengths, and thus is able to outperform many so-called 'high-end' designs, often to the point of making them sound musically broken.
So, relax and enjoy what is one of the true cartridge classics (and major audio bargains) of all time! :cool:
Marco.
walpurgis
05-05-2015, 16:54
I honestly don't understand why the 103 attracts so much negative comments from people (it's an old nail etc)
I'd better not say anything. I tend to get a spanky off Marco when I comment on DL-103s. :lol:
Lol - yet you LOVE the 103R, which is essentially the SAME cartridge with a few 'tweaks' applied! The fundamental 'DNA', however, remain the same. That tells me your 'dislike' of the vanilla 103 is simply a presentational thing, which is largely system dependent (thus fixable).
I guarantee that if you heard the 103 here, you'd love it as much as the 'R' (and be able to properly appreciate their respective strengths and weaknesses)! :trust:
;)
Marco.
walpurgis
05-05-2015, 17:28
I find the R sounds very different Marco. I've lived with both for significant periods, using the same SUT and phono stage etc.
I really can't get over just how good the cart sounds and i don't think it's purely down to the SUT>MM phono stage thing, although the various SUTs I've heard have been good but I've had the cart going into a £30 Quad MC module ,albeit one that has been modded to suit the 103, I think that it's just a very good music maker and frankly I'm quite stunned at the sounds it's making for what it cost me which was less than the cost of a decent meal with wine for two at a good Italian resteraunt.
I find it fantastic with jazz and acoustic music and of course seventies and sixties records, there is very good bass too but it's not uncontrolled or overdone.
In fact I would say that it sounds very like the Reson MM cart that I have and that's a £400 cart, new.
walpurgis
05-05-2015, 17:36
In fact I would say that it sounds very like the Reson MM cart that I have and that's a £400 cart, new.
Funny you should say that. My 103R sounded very similar to my ADC 10E Mk.IV (induced magnet design). The only notable difference was in the bass, which was more extended with the ADC, but slightly tighter with the Denon. Otherwise tonality, transparency and presentation were very alike.
I find the R sounds very different Marco. I've lived with both for significant periods, using the same SUT and phono stage etc.
Maybe that's the problem then: a lack of synergy with your SUT and phono stage? If you keep repeating the same things, you'll get the same results. That's common sense.
I disagree that they sound *very* different. The difference equates to a variance in tonal presentation (the 'R' is brighter and 'crisper', arguably slightly cleaner sounding), but how both cartridges present music is near identical, as indeed should be the case, given that they share the same magnet assembly, generator and stylus.
One day, I will prove that to you! ;)
Marco.
Funny you should say that. My 103R sounded very similar to my ADC 10E Mk.IV (induced magnet design). The only notable difference was in the bass, which was more extended with the ADC, but slightly tighter with the Denon. Otherwise tonality, transparency and presentation were very alike.
Think I'm right in saying that you use XYZ carts now don't you Geoff, how does the two Denons sound compared to those carts?
I really can't get over just how good the cart sounds and i don't think it's purely down to the SUT>MM phono stage thing, although the various SUTs I've heard have been good but I've had the cart going into a £30 Quad MC module ,albeit one that has been modded to suit the 103, I think that it's just a very good music maker and frankly I'm quite stunned at the sounds it's making for what it cost me which was less than the cost of a decent meal with wine for two at a good Italian resteraunt.
Indeed, and I trust that I've explained why :)
You simply *cannot* judge it on price alone.
I find it fantastic with jazz and acoustic music and of course seventies and sixties records, there is very good bass too but it's not uncontrolled or overdone.
That's precisely where the 103 excels. It also sounds superb with 80s 12" singles, and anything with a dance beat, making them 'boogie', rhythmically, like almost nothing else! I simply adore its 'effortless and unflustered broadcast quality sound' (and bass authority), which is difficult to put accurately into words.
It has a sense of security and sure-footedness, in the groove, that 'domestic' cartridges lack - and for me that's really important. I get that too, with my SPU. One of the benefits of high VTFs, I think.
Marco.
Maybe that's the problem then: a lack of synergy with your SUT and phono stage?
I disagree that they sound *very* different. The difference equates to a variance in tonal presentation (the 'R' is brighter and 'crisper', arguably slightly cleaner sounding), but how both cartridges present music is near identical, as indeed should be the case, given that they share the same magnet assembly, generator and stylus.
One day, I will prove that to you! ;)
Marco.
A couple of the old timers on PFM said that they much preferred the plain old 103 to the R variant, they said that they bought the 103r and then quickly went back to the 103, that was one of the reasons I bought a 103 as I wanted to hear one rather than going up the range first.
I'm certainly not disappointed.
Indeed, and I trust that I've explained why :)
You simply *cannot* judge it on price alone.
That's precisely where the 103 excels. It also sounds superb with 80s 12" singles, and anything with a dance beat, making them 'boogie' like almost nothing else! I simply adore its 'effortless and unflustered broadcast quality sound' which is difficult to put into words.
Marco.
Funny you should mention 12" singles, I was listening to Chaka Khan and Rufus last week (I'm Every Woman) and it sounded superb with the 103 likewise Sheila & B Devotion's spacer (Chic), probably the best that I've ever heard those two records.
Absolutely... Well, feed it more of that material, and I guarantee it'll have you shakin' ya booty!! :dance: :dance:
Honestly, I know this thing literally inside out. 30+ years of experience doesn't lie...
Marco.
Absolutely... Well, feed it more of that material, and I guarantee it'll have you shakin' ya booty!! :dance: :dance:
Honestly, I know this thing literally inside out. 30+ years of experience doesn't lie...
Marco.
Just fired on The Undisputed Truth's You Plus Me 12" disco mix, hell yeah!:eek:
A couple of the old timers on PFM said that they much preferred the plain old 103 to the R variant, they said that they bought the 103r and then quickly went back to the 103, that was one of the reasons I bought a 103 as I wanted to hear one rather than going up the range first.
I'm certainly not disappointed.
Yup, for me, the 'R' is simply more 'hi-fi sounding', and so rather more of a side-grade than an overall upgrade. Simply remove the 103's plastic shell and fit one of the many available upgrade options (some are better than others), and honestly, it will STUN you. There is no need to do anything else to it.
Yes, you can mess around with fitting 'posh' styli and cantilevers, which do bring about some sonic improvements (again mainly in the 'hi-fi domain'), but IME not without robbing the 103 of some of its inherent musicality and infectious 'fun-factor'.
Marco.
Hmmm, might just do that mod Marco, nothing really to lose as the cart cost me buttons.
Wakefield Turntables
05-05-2015, 18:20
You can buy Al upgrade bodies for less than 30 quids!
Just be careful you don't trash it, though, Tony. There are many videos on the web, showing the process in detail, so follow those and you should be ok. I can also give you some recommendations as to which body-shells I think would work best :)
Marco.
walpurgis
05-05-2015, 18:21
Think I'm right in saying that you use XYZ carts now don't you Geoff, how does the two Denons sound compared to those carts?
Yes. I mostly use ZYX now. The only other MC I have is a Goldring Eroica LX (and there's also my collection of MMs).
It wouldn't be realistic to compare the Denons to the ZYXs. They are in very different price brackets. I was using a DL-103R as well as a Technics EPC-305MC prior to getting a ZYX. The Technics was superior to the 103R in all aspects, but when It got my first ZYX, the R50 Bloom H, I was astonished how much better it was compared to the Technics, which until then I'd rated as one of the best MCs I'd used (along with the Fidelity Research MC201 and Ortofon SPU). Up until that point I was aware of the way sound was presented by each MC, but the R50 is so lacking in coloration that you simply don't pay attention to what it does and just hear the music.
You can buy Al upgrade bodies for less than 30 quids!
Thanks, my Denon 103 has the isokinetic weight glued on the top so presumably that has to come off first then the body?
Yes. I mostly use ZYX now. The only other MC I have is a Goldring Eroica LX (and there's also my collection of MMs).
It wouldn't be realistic to compare the Denons to the ZYXs. They are in very different price brackets. I was using a DL-103R as well as a Technics EPC-305MC prior to getting a ZYX. The Technics was superior to the 103R in all aspects, but when It got my first ZYX, the R50 Bloom H, I was astonished how much better it was compared to the Technics, which until then I'd rated as one of the best MCs I'd used (along with the Fidelity Research MC201 and Ortofon SPU). Up until that point I was aware of the way sound was presented by each MC, but the R50 is so lacking in coloration that you simply don't pay attention to what it does and just hear the music.
Thanks Geoff, those ZYX carts do get excellent reviews and great comments from owners on the forums, I'll need to keep an eye out for a decent used example.
walpurgis
05-05-2015, 18:47
Thanks Geoff, those ZYX carts do get excellent reviews and great comments from owners on the forums, I'll need to keep an eye out for a decent used example.
Be aware that the R100 and R100 H2 are a bit different in character compared to the R50 and R100 Yatra. The R100 and R100 H2 (even more so), have a somewhat Decca like presentation, seeming very 'fast' with explicit detail and (as with each of my XYZs) enormous depth and transparency. The R50 and Yatra are easier to slot into a system.
Just be careful you don't trash it, though, Tony. There are many videos on the web, showing the process in detail, so follow those and you should be ok. I can also give you some recommendations as to which body-shells I think would work best :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco, would be interested in some recommendations.
Make sure your records are nice and clean! I was running my 103r when I didn't have a RCM and I couldn't believe how much crap was accumulating on the stylus. I loved the way the cart performed but after about 6 months the sound deteriorated - gunk was embedded on the stylus :stalks: I'll definitely be getting another one when the time comes for a change.
Just be careful you don't bust it, though, Tony. There are many videos on the web, showing the process in detail, so follow those and you should be ok. I can also give you some recommendations as to which body-shells I think would work best :)
Marco.
Hi Marco
I really want to hear the best body upgrade for a denon 103R.
I am considering to get one but really confused. Which one you recommend? Wood or Aluminum? Any brand?
Thanks a lot.
Hi guys,
Just off to bed, but for maximum 'bang for your buck' I like the look of the Paradox stuff from the States. DIY version here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Paradox-Pulse-Denon-103-R-cartridge-body-T-6-build-your-own-ZU-universal-SALE-/181661497533?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a4bde78bd
Or for a ready-built version (including cartridge), see here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Paradox-Pulse-3-Denon-103-103R-T6-cartridge-Universal-Paradox-ZU-Black-Clear-/181713207683?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a4ef38183
I mean, just how sexy does this look (and check out the spec, outlined in the listing):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/910/hO7MB8.jpg
I reckon that those shells would be utterly superb and totally transform the 'vanilla' 103, by removing the sonically detrimental effect of that horribly resonant plastic shell it comes with! It's what I intend to fit onto my own 103, when I get the chance. I'd go for a black one, though! :)
You're looking there, sonically, at a £1k+ cartridge (minus the price tag)! A veritable 'giant-killer' in the making, oh yes sireee........
:goodnight:
Marco.
Hi guys,
Just off to bed, but for maximum 'bang for your buck' I like the look of the Paradox stuff from the States. DIY version here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Paradox-Pulse-Denon-103-R-cartridge-body-T-6-build-your-own-ZU-universal-SALE-/181661497533?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a4bde78bd
Or for a ready-built version (including cartridge), see here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Paradox-Pulse-3-Denon-103-103R-T6-cartridge-Universal-Paradox-ZU-Black-Clear-/181713207683?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a4ef38183
I mean, just how sexy does this look (and check out the spec, outlined in the listing):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/910/hO7MB8.jpg
I reckon that those shells would be utterly superb and totally transform the 'vanilla' 103, by removing the sonically detrimental effect of that horribly resonant plastic shell it comes with! It's what I intend to fit onto my own 103, when I get the chance. I'd go for a black one, though! :)
You're looking there, sonically, at a £1k+ cartridge (minus the price tag)! A veritable 'giant-killer' in the making, oh yes sireee........
:goodnight:
Marco.
Very sexy - now that looks the biz!
Thanks Marco
This really looks great esprcially the silver one. Premium look.
Got two more questions [emoji3]
- have you experienced these bodies?
- what do you think about Soundsmith upgrades on 103Rs. They have plenty of versions. It said that life of the stylus is not too long so ı was thinking of a retip by soundsmith and also some upgrades that they offer if possible on a used cart. Any experince on these?
Wow! That Paradox Pulse body is so much better looking than the ones I am using for my 103 and 103R but mines were cheaper.
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/KCCTKC/P1130272copy1.jpg
Think I prefer the looks of the malachite stone bodies mentioned elswhere (sorry, can't find the link at the moment).
Wakefield Turntables
06-05-2015, 19:11
Try looking on the Cala Mighty Sound website http://calamightysound.blogspot.co.uk/ scroll down a bit and you'll get the malachite 103 body.
Think I prefer the looks of the malachite stone bodies mentioned elswhere (sorry, can't find the link at the moment).
Hi Barry,
Is it the one you've referred to?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DENON-DL-103-Tuning-Gehause-Alumide-mit-Nadelsch-Umbauanl-Befest-Schr-/261870576300?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item3cf8b3e2ac
Hi King
Actually it was the Uwe malachite body I had in mind: http://calamightysound.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/uwe-green-malachite-stone-body-limited.html (thanks REXTON), but those "Alumide' bodies look interesting, and are a lot cheaper.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TRF-oMNVIho/Ut5JEhllizI/AAAAAAAAzO0/PpLWx3zsw7Q/s1600/IMG_5709.JPG
Well guys my new (to me) Fidelity Research FRT-3 SUT turned up this morning in practically as new condition, first impressions are very good, tried it on the 30 Ohm settings and it was sounding a wee bit bright but now have it on the 10 Ohm setting and sounds okay.
Absolutely no noise from this SUT BTW despite sitting it right next to the Quad 306 PA.
Need to have a bit of a listen and then maybe stick The Head SUT back in the system later on to try to compare but i always find that difficult, would be great to have two TTs or arms but better not go there:eek:
Anyone advise which is the best setting for the 103?
With The Head SUT I was using the 15 ohm taps rather than the 40 ohm ones.
PS, piano sounds very good indeed.
Tony
BTW, I've just stuck on a Bill Evans record-Undercurrent, don't think I've ever heard it like am I now, really vibrant, and exciting, I'm using the 30 ohm settings so maybe it's a tad bright but it sounds very good to me piano bas is very real sounding, maybe not in the room real but not far away.
Impressive.
Good news Tony! Glad to hear you are 'getting there'. :)
Incidently, instruments and performers should never sound as if they are in your room, it should sound as if you are in their room. This is not a question of semantics - you wouldn't want the Berlin Philharmonic orchestra in your living room, but you do want to be transported to the auditorium where they play; you want to hear the acoustic of the performance venue.
Thanks Barry.
Well I've just put the Reson Reca back onto the tonearm. I'm listening to it via the by-pass switch on the Fidelity Research FRT-3 so I'm using the Quad 34's MM module as before and there's no question in my mind that the Denon 103 with SUT is much better sounding which really surprises me as the Reson cart is considered a top MM cart to rival the likes of a 2m Black and the more expensive Nagaoka carts.
The Reson maybe shades it a touch on some of the midrange like electric guitar, snare and kick drums and maybe even male vocals but there isn't a great deal in it IMO but it seems to be lacking the authority of the Denon 103, the music isn't as full sounding if you like, sounds a bit veiled to me.
I'm using the same record for the comparison which is Hipsway:Hipsway original vinyl.
Edit:
Just put the Denon back on the tonearm, absolutely no contest for me the Denon wins by a country mile, sound has opened right up there's more pace and the sound is tight with good bass and very good vocals midrange is excellent.
topdogya
17-05-2015, 08:55
Hi Tony,
Can you please tell me how long it took for your DL103r to open up?
I have only just had a new arm and plinth fitted around my Garrard 401 and I am using the DL 103 r, only have around 10 hours on it at the moment but straight out of the box it is walking all over the Goldring 1042
Regards Steve.
wiicrackpot
17-05-2015, 11:57
Garrard 401 Jelco Silver Meledy 750L, Denon DL103r,Silvercore SUT, Graham Slee Era Gold, Arcam FMJ CD37, Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista M3, Harbeth 30.1 Something Solid, Atlas Cables.
Steve, just a wee thread drift before Tony answers, thats a really nice system you have assembled,
every bit of it is sound even down to the Atlas Cables, some of the best VFM for sound quality out there,
have harboured a desire for the Silvercore SUT too, a system i would gladly own myself, well done. :cool:
Hi Tony,
Can you please tell me how long it took for your DL103r to open up?
I have only just had a new arm and plinth fitted around my Garrard 401 and I am using the DL 103 r, only have around 10 hours on it at the moment but straight out of the box it is walking all over the Goldring 1042
Regards Steve.
Hi Steve, my cart is just a plain old vanilla 103 which I bought second hand from a guy on PFM who really gets a hard time over there cause everything he buys ends up faulty, or so he claims, but I think he's on a noise up most of the time and just laughs at them.
Anyway I think that the cart was more or less brand new and frankly sounded a bit shit when I started using it, initially I put the shit sound down to a dirty stylus but it's obvious that the cart's cantilever has loosend off quite a bit and that's what I'm now hearing but the SUT has definitely made a difference too.
I think that I started hearing the cart at it's best maybe about 20 hours after first installing it, frankly I can't get away with how this cart can described by some as an 'old nail' and dismissed as a piece of junk.
I would say that it's probably the best sounding cart that I've heard in my system, it really is fantastic with jazz.
I certainly won't be in any rush to flog it that's for sure.
Tony
topdogya
19-05-2015, 18:30
Well I have about 30 hours on the Denon DL103 and I cannot beleave how its really opened up and singing,
Like you Tony I would say that it's probably the best sounding cart that I've heard in my system aswell, it really is fantastic with all sorts of music that I have played so far, and at the price I dont think you can go far wrong.
Steve.
Hi guy's just to update this thread a bit, I've now put back the modified Quad MC module back into the system and to my ears it sounds as good with the Denon 103 than it does with the FRT-3 which is something of a surprise to me, think I actually prefer the Quad MC module to the FR SUT.
Tony
Now I've re-installed the Reson Reca MM cart into the Quad MM module and there really is no contest with the Denon 103 IMO, it may well be that the Quad MM module isn't ideally suited to the the Reson cart but I was more than happy with it before I bought the Denon so it's obvious that I prefer the Denon's presentation to the Reca, I think, rather than a mismatch with the Quad pre-amp's MM module.
The Reson cart is really good but I think I'm now hearing what Marco has always said about these Denon carts and that is that I'm hearing the 'boogie' factor.
I've really tried to dislike the Denon 103 but the fact is that I really like what it does with the music, even my wife hears what I'm hearing and she thinks I'm off my head with this hi-fi lark:eek:
Really interesting.
Tony
topdogya
24-05-2015, 15:17
Garrard 401 Jelco Silver Meledy 750L, Denon DL103r,Silvercore SUT, Graham Slee Era Gold, Arcam FMJ CD37, Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista M3, Harbeth 30.1 Something Solid, Atlas Cables.
Steve, just a wee thread drift before Tony answers, thats a really nice system you have assembled,
every bit of it is sound even down to the Atlas Cables, some of the best VFM for sound quality out there,
have harboured a desire for the Silvercore SUT too, a system i would gladly own myself, well done. :cool:
Thanks Andy, Its taken me some time to get there,you know what it is like, you change something in your system and then you change it again, but yes it really does sing now.If you get a chance go and listen to the Sivercore SUT's there are nice. Have one on me Lol.:cool:
Steve.
The Reson cart is really good but I think I'm now hearing what Marco has always said about these Denon carts and that is that I'm hearing the 'boogie' factor.
Some get there early, some late, some never..... ;)
Enjoy!
Marco.
freefallrob
20-10-2015, 14:55
Thread from the dead!
Just fitted a Denon 103R, 2 albums in and loving it:)
ChrisKemp
20-10-2015, 21:22
And I ordered a 103R yesterday!
Smegger68
25-10-2015, 15:33
Running a DL-103R into a Klaus Hurler SUT (The ebay seller linked early in this thread). Sounds lovely :)
Love the 103R. Miles better than the standard and also preferred by me to the nude 103 and metal bodied mods.
ChrisKemp
25-10-2015, 18:52
Received mine this week. Put on an Isokinetik Stabilizer brass (8,5g) on the Jelco headshell. Total of 30g now. First I tried it together with a Rothwell MCL I'm borrowing. A little bass heavy in my set up. Switched to Jasmine MC input with 250 ohm load and wow! Airy, dynamic, voices so live and natural and the bass tight as.... The AT440Mlb is a great spare cart indeed:) The 103R will stay in my system and will be retipped when it wares out.
walpurgis
25-10-2015, 19:45
Love the 103R. Miles better than the standard and also preferred by me to the nude 103 and metal bodied mods.
That's my view too. I had both at the same time and the 103R won all round. Easily! I thought it was great. But then I bought a ZYX R50 Bloom H. Whoo Hoo! Whole new ball game!!
ChrisKemp
31-10-2015, 08:51
That's my view too. I had both at the same time and the 103R won all round. Easily! I thought it was great. But then I bought a ZYX R50 Bloom H. Whoo Hoo! Whole new ball game!!
Can you describe the "Whoo Hoo" a little more?:)
walpurgis
31-10-2015, 11:19
Can you describe the "Whoo Hoo" a little more?:)
The R50 Bloom was a revelation after the DL-103R. Seemingly total lack of colouration, much bigger sound and amazingly deep and expansive soundstage, real ambience coming through in a way I'd not heard before. It was also superior to my Technics EPC-305MC, which really surprised me, as I'd regarded it as pretty unbeatable. I was impressed enough to invest in three more ZYX MCs, each of which are superb!
ChrisKemp
01-11-2015, 10:29
The R50 Bloom was a revelation after the DL-103R. Seemingly total lack of colouration, much bigger sound and amazingly deep and expansive soundstage, real ambience coming through in a way I'd not heard before. It was also superior to my Technics EPC-305MC, which really surprised me, as I'd regarded it as pretty unbeatable. I was impressed enough to invest in three more ZYX MCs, each of which are superb!
Thank you. I also heard great things about Zyx R-100 and that it is very close to the dynamics of a Decca. So maybe in a couple of years the R-100 will be the natural upgrade from DL-103R in my setup:)
walpurgis
01-11-2015, 11:11
Thank you. I also heard great things about Zyx R-100 and that it is very close to the dynamics of a Decca. So maybe in a couple of years the R-100 will be the natural upgrade from DL-103R in my setup:)
That's the R100 H2 you're thinking of. Not the R100. They are different. I have both. Just a possibility my (low mileage) H2 could be up for sale soon, as I have the R100 Yatra and a Decca now (again).
ChrisKemp
01-11-2015, 13:58
R100 H2, yes. I just got my DL-103R and it will be some months til I upgrade to another cartridge.
I used to have a Decca Super Gold. Returned it because it picked up stray field from the direct drive motor. A shame really, because it was a fantastic cartridge that I really loved. How would you describe the difference between your Decca and the Zyx R100 H2?? Would be very interesting to hear your opinion...
Hi guys. My first post :)
Have a DL103R.
Initially it went in a Graham 1.5 but was v unhappy there so I moved it to another tt with a 3012 II (nicely serviced).
While its happier tracking in the 3012 I cant say I was too happy with the sound.
Lets say I prefer the tone of my V15 III (that now sits in the Graham).
I find the 103R 'harsher' by comparison
My question regards its suitability in the 3012 - I would have thought the arm is suitable massy for the 103R.
The smaller weight at the back of the arm that is used to adjust tracking force - well mine is just the single cylinder - I have seen some old SMEs with 2 such weights.
Would that make the difference with the 103R I wonder?
Sorry to hijack on my first post:D
Hi guys. My first post :)
Have a DL103R.
Initially it went in a Graham 1.5 but was v unhappy there so I moved it to another tt with a 3012 II (nicely serviced).
While its happier tracking in the 3012 I cant say I was too happy with the sound.
Lets say I prefer the tone of my V15 III (that now sits in the Graham).
I find the 103R 'harsher' by comparison
My question regards its suitability in the 3012 - I would have thought the arm is suitable massy for the 103R.
The smaller weight at the back of the arm that is used to adjust tracking force - well mine is just the single cylinder - I have seen some old SMEs with 2 such weights.
Would that make the difference with the 103R I wonder?
Sorry to hijack on my first post:D
I would have thought the Denon 103R should work well in an SME 3012 arm. The mass of the Denon is 8.5g and has a compliance (at 10Hz) of 10 cu. Assuming it is mounted in the SME headshell with the supplied fixings, then with an effective arm mass of 14g, the resonant frequency of the arm/cartridge combination will be an ideal 10.6Hz.
The use of a single sliding weigh-rod weight will make no difference. It sounds as though your SME 3012 is a Mk. I version. Does it have bias compensation? The 'split' weigh-rod weight was added later to allow for cartridges to be tracked at a lower tracking force - such as your Shure V15.
I would have thought the Denon 103R should work well in an SME 3012 arm. The mass of the Denon is 8.5g and has a compliance (at 10Hz) of 10 cu. Assuming it is mounted in the SME headshell with the supplied fixings, then with an effective arm mass of 14g, the resonant frequency of the arm/cartridge combination will be an ideal 10.6Hz.
Guys over on vinyl engine calculated it's true compliance to be 7cu at 10hz.
Guys over on vinyl engine calculated it's true compliance to be 7cu at 10hz.
The compliance of a cartridge at 10Hz is about double the value at 100Hz (and vinylengine quote 5cu at 100Hz). But taking the value of 7cu increases the resonant frequency to a calculated value of 12.7Hz. A little on the high side perhaps, but nothing to worry about.
I ll let u techies argue the math :)
No my 3012 is a series II
I have accepted that i cant seem to appreciate the alleged sonic abilities of the 103R - at least not mine - bought new from reputed eBayer and looked mint.
Sorta disappointing but i am happy with the V15 III and Nag MP11
I have the opinion of a new hifi friend that the 103R works best in an S arm such as the Jelco, but i dunno.
And this particular chap prefers the 103 over the 103R ( appropriate to this thread, i thought ).
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