View Full Version : TIDAL - What's Going Oh Here Then?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/32121383
Sick of getting screwed by the streaming services, knowing full well the future of music playback is precisely here, are the super rich artists trying to take control?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/32121383
Sick of getting screwed by the streaming services, knowing full well the future of music playback is precisely here, are the super rich artists trying to take control?
Think you hit the nail on the head there. Tidal looked like a great service - I say 'looked' because now that a bunch of super-rich 'entertainers' have hijacked it, it ceases to be of any interest. It annoys the crap out of me that they have stolen the limelight on Tidal and the focus is now on the celebrity and the exclusive content and how the 'artists can control their art'. The last point is completely false as the only people who will benefit from this are the new owners. It'll not make a blind bit of difference to any other artists in terms of what they receive from having their music streamed on these services. The fact that they are touting 'exclusive content' kills streaming dead for me. The whole point of subscribing to a streaming service for me is a 'try before you buy'. I have no interest in subscribing to more than one service because I can't get access to all of the artists I want to listen to on one service - and you can guarantee that some other bunch of super-rich 'entertainers' will probably end up buying Qobuz or starting some other new streaming service with their own exclusive content.
And in amongst all of the glitz and glamour, not a hint of the future of the service - When Tidal announced the deal with Meridian to start MQA streaming back in December it got little to no publicity, but this might just be the most interesting development in streaming to happen so far. Is this still happening? There has been absolutely no mention of it. Everyone seems too busy worshipping the 'icons of entertainment' and heralding 'the future of music'.
I for one am out. Most of the music I buy these days seems to originate on Bandcamp anyway, so interest has been on the wane for some time.
Audio Advent
01-04-2015, 21:49
Competition is good. The problem with streaming services is that the labels control how they work (or they won't provide their artist's content) and how much the artist gets paid (they will sell a "package" of content and the individual artists get next to nothing and have no say over it). For big money artists to group together and provide their music outside of their major labels is quite a shake up, especially if they are then asking for others to join them and promise to provide an alternative for the artist to release music away from the old-school labels.
It's a start of things to come, bye bye money grabbing major labels! Kind of like Netflicks for music if you think about the fact that Netflicks and Amazon are now making their own shows, cutting out major tv channels.
Competition is good. The problem with streaming services is that the labels control how they work (or they won't provide their artist's content) and how much the artist gets paid (they will sell a "package" of content and the individual artists get next to nothing and have no say over it). For big money artists to group together and provide their music outside of their major labels is quite a shake up, especially if they are then asking for others to join them and promise to provide an alternative for the artist to release music away from the old-school labels.
It's a start of things to come, bye bye money grabbing major labels! Kind of like Netflicks for music if you think about the fact that Netflicks and Amazon are now making their own shows, cutting out major tv channels.
....and very good they are too. A little cage shaking is a good thing for both us the end user and the artists, who often get screwed as much as we do.
Its a great platform, and I don't think that will change. As long as content availability isn't adversely affected then I'm not interested or bothered by Tidal's ownership. There is a risk of exclusive content balkanising content distribution, but to be honest as long as they continue to licence the content I'm interested in, I don't care if Jay-Z or Madonna get to push their wares.
I suppose that this might presage a different business model that eliminates the existing channel and distribution overheads that keep the labels alive, and provides a content distribution platform that allows a greater share of content into the pockets of the artists and increases choice by opening up the market to more self publication and reduced barriers to entry. That would be a good thing in my book, and long overdue. If it is just a changing of the Oligarchs then meh...
Alex
Think you hit the nail on the head there. Tidal looked like a great service - I say 'looked' because now that a bunch of super-rich 'entertainers' have hijacked it, it ceases to be of any interest. It annoys the crap out of me that they have stolen the limelight on Tidal and the focus is now on the celebrity and the exclusive content and how the 'artists can control their art'. The last point is completely false as the only people who will benefit from this are the new owners. It'll not make a blind bit of difference to any other artists in terms of what they receive from having their music streamed on these services. The fact that they are touting 'exclusive content' kills streaming dead for me. The whole point of subscribing to a streaming service for me is a 'try before you buy'. I have no interest in subscribing to more than one service because I can't get access to all of the artists I want to listen to on one service - and you can guarantee that some other bunch of super-rich 'entertainers' will probably end up buying Qobuz or starting some other new streaming service with their own exclusive content.
And in amongst all of the glitz and glamour, not a hint of the future of the service - When Tidal announced the deal with Meridian to start MQA streaming back in December it got little to no publicity, but this might just be the most interesting development in streaming to happen so far. Is this still happening? There has been absolutely no mention of it. Everyone seems too busy worshipping the 'icons of entertainment' and heralding 'the future of music'.
I for one am out. Most of the music I buy these days seems to originate on Bandcamp anyway, so interest has been on the wane for some time.
Well put. Luckily this lot are a bunch of artists I have absolutely no interest in. Spotify is great for discovering new music and artists plus the quality is more than good enough for all but really critical listening. An overpriced 'exclusive' service defeats the whole point as you say...
awkwardbydesign
02-04-2015, 08:19
When I looked at Tidal, I found that quite a lot of the music I like wasn't available. I tend to listen to quite obscure artists, and the thought occurred to me; if the esoteric is not well represented, and Tidal (or other) streaming is one's major source of new music, will your listening get channeled into an ever narrowing blind alley?
And if "major" artists take control, will it become even narrower? Artists like Coil, The Bevis Frond, Suns of Arqa immediately spring to mind; I have about 60 albums by those three alone, see how many you can find on Tidal.
Nowhere has everything Richard. Especially very esoteric stuff.
Pieoftheday
02-04-2015, 08:50
Competition is good. The problem with streaming services is that the labels control how they work (or they won't provide their artist's content) and how much the artist gets paid (they will sell a "package" of content and the individual artists get next to nothing and have no say over it). For big money artists to group together and provide their music outside of their major labels is quite a shake up, especially if they are then asking for others to join them and promise to provide an alternative for the artist to release music away from the old-school labels.
It's a start of things to come, bye bye money grabbing major labels! Kind of like Netflicks for music if you think about the fact that Netflicks and Amazon are now making their own shows, cutting out major tv channels.
When I looked at Tidal, I found that quite a lot of the music I like wasn't available. I tend to listen to quite obscure artists, and the thought occurred to me; if the esoteric is not well represented, and Tidal (or other) streaming is one's major source of new music, will your listening get channeled into an ever narrowing blind alley?
And if "major" artists take control, will it become even narrower? Artists like Coil, The Bevis Frond, Suns of Arqa immediately spring to mind; I have about 60 albums by those three alone, see how many you can find on Tidal.
The bevis frond, never heard of em,just ordered their first album on cd:)
4 Bevis Frond albums on TIDAL... plus other tracks and offerings from all the artists Richard lists though I am sure it is pityful for a fan.
I always think you should concentrate on what any music service has rather than what it doesn't have.
Besides Richard you would not be looking at TIDAL for all the stuff you already have. Please note I'm not trying to make you use it or any other service.
As long as the new owners invest sufficient money from sufficient revenue I think the service's prospects remain good. Only time will tell but basically what is it but a huge database and a GUI? The most important thing is they don't screw up the driving software which is way better than Qobuz. The Android app is massively better than the useless Qobuz equivalent. Really important for driving around in the car/work.
awkwardbydesign
02-04-2015, 14:31
My point about limited coverage by Tidal, or anyone else, is that it is liable to lead one down a narrow path. I only mentioned those artists as they are ones I looked for when I visited Justin. How much else is badly represented? It's a bit like ebay or Amazon's "recommended just for you, Richard" attempts. Not the same of course, but still focussing on what is either already popular, or trying to deliberately influence one's consumption. I like to find random new music, or follow a known path, but if some types of music or artist are under represented, how will I know what is out there?
Record labels are already focussing on the safe and saleable, so do we need another medium which heads in the same direction? THAT'S my concern! And if the "big names" get their way, I suspect that's exactly what we will get. Anyway, I like physical media, so that will also colour my views.
Justin and I have already had this conversation, and I think we will agree to disagree. Fair enough, we each have a different outlook.
awkwardbydesign
02-04-2015, 14:34
The bevis frond, never heard of em,just ordered their first album on cd:)
Good man! He has also been Countdown champion; what's not to like? :D
The Black Adder
02-04-2015, 15:05
TIDAL - One of the most pretentious load of crap I've seen in years.
Well I will agree that the recent TV and BBC exposure made me puke a bit.
But at the end of the day it is just a GUI in front of a database. At that level how is it pretentious? It is just s/w. Ignore all marketing and use the search facility.
I would never have heard any of Richard's artists if it wasn't for TIDAL (or it could have been another service).
I also find it doesn't lead me down any path. Just search for music press recommendations or forum "wot u listening to" threads. The internal links are harmless enough even if you do try to construe an evil intent.
Any more thoughts on how the controlling artists might make it better or worse?
awkwardbydesign
02-04-2015, 17:53
[QUOTE=User211;635171
I would never have heard any of Richard's artists if it wasn't for TIDAL (or it could have been another service).
[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. But you would never have heard OF them if it wasn't for me! :ner:
awkwardbydesign
03-04-2015, 10:46
I also find it doesn't lead me down any path. Just search for music press recommendations or forum "wot u listening to" threads. The internal links are harmless enough even if you do try to construe an evil intent.
As I see it, the problem is that you won't realise how your choices are influenced. If there is a limit on what is available, accidental or deliberate, then you don't see the other stuff. So unless you already know about it (as happened in my case), you won't know what is missing. And if it IS being controlled then it is very insidious. So if the controlling artists manage to limit what other musicians' work is available, then you are back to the same situation as when record companies controlled what we could hear. The internet has bypassed them to a large extent, but the rich and powerful don't like to lose control. Look what happened to the hippy movement in the 60s; as soon commercial interests figured out how to market it, it died, except as a "lifestyle" purchase. I was part of it, and am still saddened by what was lost. Punk (which I was not part of) went the same way.
None of this is aimed at Justin, BTW, it's just that we are looking at it from different sides. He is savvy enough to find his own music, but there will be plenty who aren't. And I am generally cynical about the motives of anyone who wants to make money from things.
But as Rumsfeld said "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."
And if we don't know what's missing, then we are not in control of our choices. Of course, life is like this anyway, but I don't want any more of it, thanks. And I WAS surprised at how much was missing of the few things I looked for.
I was amazed how much of your stuff was there TBH. 25 million tracks is a lot of material - far more than anyone has in a collection.
TIDAL attempts to influence via playlists, featured artists, charts and just about any other method they can think of I guess. Nothing to worry about music mags attempt to influence too. And all sorts if other sources. Obvious marketing is easy to bypass. I don't think there's much of an issue in terms of control unless you are a mindless turkey. In which case there's no helping you LOL.
Anyway I'm creating my own.music at the moment. And also doing an acoustic cover of Joy Division's Passover using a USB measurement mic:D It plays back with a pretty poor S/N ratio TBH. I wonder if TIDAL will accept it as a legitimate release. Er...
There is one obvious control - the deliberate exclusion of music from the database for whatever reason. If those criteria start getting obviously warped it is time to change your service provider provided you notice it in the first place as I think Richard is saying.
awkwardbydesign
03-04-2015, 16:59
Noticing it is the problem, I fear. If you don't realise it's not there, you're stuck.
I believe those of us who have grown up with non-stop advertising are quite resistant to the obvious types. I didn't, so my perspective is slightly different from many younger "consumers". Which is a term I find offensive, but it seems politicians and commercial interests want to push into that mind set. I think of myself as a citizen, with obligations as much as rights, but I fear that is swimming against the tide. And I make as much as I buy, if not more, so would consider myself a producer before a consumer.
walpurgis
03-04-2015, 17:07
Look what happened to the hippy movement in the 60s; as soon commercial interests figured out how to market it, it died, except as a "lifestyle" purchase. I was part of it, and am still saddened by what was lost.
Didn't realise you were that old Richard.
I was there too and you're right. There was almost a chance for the world to become a better place, but that somehow got swept away.
awkwardbydesign
03-04-2015, 18:52
It was a dream, but for a while it seemed possible. The naivety of youth, I guess, but I would rather have loved and lost, so to speak. I may have had to live in the world since, but I am not really of it.
Ask anyone who knows me!
Is it just me or has this thread become a bit strange and overly philosophical of late??
So, we have a change of ownership and the possibility of a change in promotional approach... it isn't the end of the world really is it?. I think it unlikely that restricting the catalog would increase the sales of the artists with an ownership interest - I'm not likely to start buying Madonna's exclusive content because there are fewer alternatives. Given that there is a subscriber base to maintain and develop it would seem that broadening access would be the way to go rather than restricting it.
awkwardbydesign
03-04-2015, 19:59
Is it just me or has this thread become a bit strange and overly philosophical of late??
S
It's just you.
I did notice with Spotify quite a bit of material just disappeared. It kind of felt like they'd been putting stuff in the database that they had no permission for. That was intensely annoying.
A lot of my links just stopped working. I hope a similar thing doesn't start happening with TIDAL.
That would be very annoying, possibly even a deal-breaker for me. I had started to view Tidal as an almost feasible replacement for owning collection of physical media. That was a very bid change on my part as I swore off downloads and DRM a long time ago as I'm a collector rather than a renter by nature. If it can evaporate on a whim if licensing arrangements with content owners change or lapse (and I suppose they can) then that possibility isn't in existence any more for me, and I'd question whether my enthusiasm would be sustained.
Audio Advent
04-04-2015, 01:30
Licensing arrangements is the very problem with streaming services. On a change of heart, direction or business relationship an artist or whole label's output can be removed from a streaming service over night! More streaming services doesn't help either because that then requires multiple subscriptions and very soon I'm sure people will begin to baulk.
If only there was a way to licence what is now pirated content. That way everything would be fairly consistantly there, controlled only by fans who upload.
Licensing arrangements is the very problem with streaming services. On a change of heart, direction or business relationship an artist or whole label's output can be removed from a streaming service over night! More streaming services doesn't help either because that then requires multiple subscriptions and very soon I'm sure people will begin to baulk.
If only there was a way to licence what is now pirated content. That way everything would be fairly consistantly there, controlled only by fans who upload.
I agree. I think loss of content is the biggest risk associated with the change of ownership.
If stuff you like disappears buy it or move on to another provider. However it may not be possible to avoid this problem entirely. I haven't personally noticed a single issue with TIDAL WRT this - yet:D.
awkwardbydesign
04-04-2015, 09:12
As was mentioned on another thread, Virgin broadband had a problem for a while, which meant that anyone who was using a streaming service suddenly had no music! That would be even more of a deal breaker for me! Bad enough being at the mercy of the content provider, but also being at the mercy of the broadband provider! No thanks.
Apparently on Spotify 1,000,000 plays gets you $4,700. The same on TIDAL - multiples more is claimed. This should have the affect of net artist drift towards the TIDAL database.
Audio Advent
04-04-2015, 14:41
Apparently on Spotify 1,000,000 plays gets you $4,700. The same on TIDAL - multiples more is claimed. This should have the affect of net artist drift towards the TIDAL database.
Crazy. Press up a limited 500 run of personalised vinyl and sell for £20 each to fans and you should be able to work in £5000 of profit. 500 purchasing vinyl or 1,000,000 plays for a small band, which is easier? Obviously you do both but...
Do you think the artists would have to choose between either Spotify or TIDAL? That kind of exclusivity contract could kill a band completely.. have to be stupid to sign something like that. It might well be the case though and would be terrible for the consumer if you have to then sign up for multiple subscriptions just to be able to stream two different artists you like.
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