Save up for a Nottingham Hyperspace or make the final upgrade with ETP platter?

[ChrisKemp]

Hi you all! I write this question, because I know a lot of you in here have so much more experience with different turntables than I have:)

My SL-1210M5G has the following upgrades:
- Mike New Bearing.
- MCRUs external PSU w/ regulator.
- Isonoe feet.
- IsoKinetik Techniboots.
- Oyaide MJ-12/ BR-one + 432g Rek-O-Kut weight
- Isokinetic Silver Melody SM750 tonearm (all silver wired + vertical heavy weight)

If I was to take the fully modified route, the next upgrade now would be the MN bearing base plate and the ETP platter.

The turntable I have read alot about lately is the Nottingham Hyperspace. I think it's the best looking turntable I have seen (never seen it in person). I also read that it would be fantastic together with my London Decca Super Gold. I have never read any forum reviews/ feedback of how a Hyperspace or an Ace Spacedeck would compare to a fully modified 1210 with ETP (or Oyaide platter). All I have read is how a standard 1210 compare, or a lightly modified KAB compare. And most write that the techy cannot compare at all. Even to the Ace Spacedeck witout the heavy platter kit. The Hyperspace would be even better.

I ask because saving up to a base plate + ETP would be pretty expensive. Alernative is to sell my modified 1210M5G and save up to a Hyperspace. I know, I should get a demo, and I can take a 2 hour drive with my 1210 to the hifi store with Nottingham. But before I start saving up or getting my techy ready for a 2 hour drive, it would be great to hear your experience with Ace Space or Hyperspace:) It would be great with if the answer is not just "two very different tt", because I know that.

I can say that I was lucky enough last month to get a spesial demo from the Avid designer and chief himself in Oslo. The two top Avid tt with expensive Lyra Atlas did not impress me that much compared to the sound I have at home. Sure it was great, but so is my set up costing alot less money, too:D

But I love the looks of the Nottingham (as with my 1210M5G) and please write what you know of the Notts:eyebrows:

[Ammonite Audio]

The Hyperspace is chalk to the Technics' cheese, so you can't really compare them - you are likely to love one but not the other. The Technics has that legendary sense of 'drive' but (IME at least) can be musically unsubtle. The Nottingham is exactly the opposite - fantastically musical and delicate with chamber type music, but its low-torque motor philosophy rather tends to let it down when the music gets really dynamic; indeed these decks almost seem to stumble when faced with deep, complicated rhythms. The AceSpace arm is possibly one of the best value arms out there - a true bargain that can be recommended whatever the turntable.

I'd love to hear a Hyperspace with a rim-drive system - that could well be the very best of all worlds.

To answer your question, if you like and enjoy your Technics you could be very disappointed with the Hyperspace.

[walpurgis]

I'd have the NA turntable, but the Techie has a lot of fans.

[ChrisKemp]

Very interesting indeed and thank you for answering! Yes, I love the 1210-sound that I have now with the upgrades so far. Especially the drive and the tight bass. But sometimes I miss the deeper insight, the lighter touch and space. The music I love to listen to is jazz and classical, but also music 80-90s pop music like Madonna, Tracy Chapman, Dire Straits etc, or I can spend an evening listening to Jim Reeves, Roger Whittaker, Tori Amos and Leonard Cohen:) But I never listen to rap or heavy metal (a little Iron Maiden, yes, but that is it)...

You say that the Nottingham may be more musical, but a Nottingham with a Decca Super Gold could even out that drive it might be missing compared to a modified 1210??

I know I´m answering your answer with more questions and that I can never really be sure until I compare the two. So I would still appreciate all you guys can tell about the Hyperspace and 1210 with ETP:)

[ChrisKemp]

I'd have the NA turntable, but the Techie has a lot of fans.

What NA table do you have and what can you tell me about it? What music do you like and with what cartridge? Tell me all the details, please:)

[walpurgis]

What NA table do you have and what can you tell me about it? What music do you like and with what cartridge? Tell me all the details, please:)

I don't have one. I've heard them sounding very good in the past many times though and like the engineering that goes into them. Funny thing is, I've never seen a NA used with anything other than an MC cartridge.

[Ali Tait]

A friend has a Hyperspace, but gets the best of both worlds by using it with a Verus rim drive. This way you get the good bits of the Hyperspace along with the drive of a good idler/direct drive.

Not a cheap option though..

[Ammonite Audio]

Very interesting indeed and thank you for answering! Yes, I love the 1210-sound that I have now with the upgrades so far. Especially the drive and the tight bass. But sometimes I miss the deeper insight, the lighter touch and space. The music I love to listen to is jazz and classical, but also music 80-90s pop music like Madonna, Tracy Chapman, Dire Straits etc, or I can spend an evening listening to Jim Reeves, Roger Whittaker, Tori Amos and Leonard Cohen:) But I never listen to rap or heavy metal (a little Iron Maiden, yes, but that is it)...

You say that the Nottingham may be more musical, but a Nottingham with a Decca Super Gold could even out that drive it might be missing compared to a modified 1210??

I know I´m answering your answer with more questions and that I can never really be sure until I compare the two. So I would still appreciate all you guys can tell about the Hyperspace and 1210 with ETP:)

It sounds like you have room within your musical tastes for both turntables! That said, I don't think that a Decca will compensate for the Nottingham's relative lack of 'musical propulsion/drive', which I believe is an unavoidable consequence of its very low torque motor philosophy.

I can't comment on the ETP platter, but how about this for a bit of a left-field recommendation: if you like the sense of 'drive' with rock-solid speed stability that Direct Drive brings, but want something with real musical delicacy, seek out an old Kenwood DD deck such as the KD-990. I have a KD-770D (cruder cousin to the KD-990) and it's a really lyrical performer, broadly equal to the Heavied/Waved Spacedeck that I had at the time. IIRC Neal (NRG) has a KD-990 and rates it highly.

[Jimbo]

Hi Chris,

I have heard the techy and the NA and agree they are both great TT but different in terms of musical presentation.
Can I throw in a curved ball and suggest you try a VPI TT if you have a dealer near you. Belt driven, high mass, high torque motor, unipot arm - works well with Decca espeacially as it is internally damped.
I was going to buy a NA until I heard the VPI Scout 1.1. Changed my mind and got the VPI - extremely happy with it. Also look at the VPI Prime - even more mass and simply superb sound.

[Gazjam]

Another curve ball, try to hear a Michell Orbe with a decent arm and cart on it.
Lots of authority and drive to the sound with deep tight bass. Very musical.

[hifi_dave]

Nowt wrong with any Nottingham Analogue turntable - they sound great, totally reliable, virtually plug n play and good value. The engineering is second to none and they certainly don't lack 'drive'. What you need to do is get a listen to one and then you will know for sure.

[belloire]

one option is to get a 2nd hand spacedeck and arm, for a lot less than the hyperspace, and keep both. that way you can actually see which you prefer. (plus the space deck can be upgraded with an ace anna arm, the heavy kit and wave mechanic psu if you like it.)

i see people are saying you won't like one if you like the other, but i'm not sure thats the case. i have a 1210, not as modded as yours, but modded enough, and am a big fan of the notts sounds too. i've got one coming later in the year. my techy has been for sale for a bit, and it's looking like it won't sell so i'll keep both.

[ChrisKemp]

So many great responses here! And yes, a VPI is also a turntable I have looked at. But if a VPI is to be an upgrade from my current modified Technics, I think it must be a VPI Classic.

The DD Kenwood is a beautiful deck, too, but if I'm to sell my techy it would be to upgrade it to a newer turntable. I love the look of the 1210M5G and it has a world of after market parts, too.

I'm sure the Michell is a fine turntable, but I just cant't stand looking at the turning sylynders under the platter. I do not like that design, sorry.

Design wise I could go for a VPI Classic, but I don't know if it would be an upgrade. The VPI as I understand has a great drive with great bass, and maybe that would be more of a sideways move?

What I don't understand is when some say that a Hyperspace would lack drive because of a low tork motor? With a light weight platter, say a Rega, I would understand. But with a heavy platter like the Hyperspace? As long as the platter is spinning at 33.33 and the stylus drag does not affect the heavy platter, why would the low tork result that way? I'm just asking.

[Andrei]

What I don't understand is when some say that a Hyperspace would lack drive because of a low tork motor? With a light weight platter, say a Rega, I would understand. But with a heavy platter like the Hyperspace? As long as the platter is spinning at 33.33 and the stylus drag does not affect the heavy platter, why would the low tork result that way? I'm just asking.

That is precisely my thinking Chris! The trouble is I have heard so many reports of great bass of the 1200 (and SP10) there must be something to it. In fact my limited experience bears this out. My bass is taut and tight which I did not have on my Clearaudio turntable (actually a Marantz built by Clearaudio). It seems that the larger wave excursions of bass cause some drag and the high torque motor overcomes this better than the increased inertia of mass. I am not sure why this should be. Perhaps you need to go to the highest mountain and sit without food cross-legged for three days to ponder these mysteries.

Anyway, here are a couple of suggestions: one is to consider what would be achieved by a bass plate. I think it would reduce vibration by giving more rigidity. Vibration can be reduced in another easier, cheaper, safer, and reversible way if you did not like the result. Open up the TT, first from the top, and then from underneath so you have access to the metal chassis. Stick a damping material such as dynamat on every spare space. It works an absolute treat!

Another suggestion if you are looking for a change (in addition to an improvement) may be to look at your phono stage. This is the sort of thing that is easier to try at home. A nice valve stage may be the ticket! I think this is an area where a lot of improvement can be made because the signals are so small.

[allthingsanalogue]

I had and Orbe with a Rega arm and a top speck LP12, ekos arm etc but preferred my 1210 to both of them! The 1210 just has great drive and boogie factor.

Get a ETP platter and sell the MJ-12 as you won't need it to raise funds.

Please think very carefully, once you sell your 1210 you cant get it back as the 1210, Oyaide MJ-12 are all discontinued!

[Ali Tait]

So many great responses here! And yes, a VPI is also a turntable I have looked at. But if a VPI is to be an upgrade from my current modified Technics, I think it must be a VPI Classic.

The DD Kenwood is a beautiful deck, too, but if I'm to sell my techy it would be to upgrade it to a newer turntable. I love the look of the 1210M5G and it has a world of after market parts, too.

I'm sure the Michell is a fine turntable, but I just cant't stand looking at the turning sylynders under the platter. I do not like that design, sorry.

Design wise I could go for a VPI Classic, but I don't know if it would be an upgrade. The VPI as I understand has a great drive with great bass, and maybe that would be more of a sideways move?

What I don't understand is when some say that a Hyperspace would lack drive because of a low tork motor? With a light weight platter, say a Rega, I would understand. But with a heavy platter like the Hyperspace? As long as the platter is spinning at 33.33 and the stylus drag does not affect the heavy platter, why would the low tork result that way? I'm just asking.

Dunno, but I was told by my friend that adding the rim drive transformed the sound of the deck. Go figure..

[montesquieu]

The Hyperspace is chalk to the Technics' cheese, so you can't really compare them - you are likely to love one but not the other. The Technics has that legendary sense of 'drive' but (IME at least) can be musically unsubtle. The Nottingham is exactly the opposite - fantastically musical and delicate with chamber type music, but its low-torque motor philosophy rather tends to let it down when the music gets really dynamic; indeed these decks almost seem to stumble when faced with deep, complicated rhythms. The AceSpace arm is possibly one of the best value arms out there - a true bargain that can be recommended whatever the turntable.

I'd love to hear a Hyperspace with a rim-drive system - that could well be the very best of all worlds.

To answer your question, if you like and enjoy your Technics you could be very disappointed with the Hyperspace.


What Hugo said!

Though for me the ideal compromise here is a well-sorted idler. Flog the Techie and get a TD124 :)

[hifi_dave]

What I don't understand is when some say that a Hyperspace would lack drive because of a low tork motor? With a light weight platter, say a Rega, I would understand. But with a heavy platter like the Hyperspace? As long as the platter is spinning at 33.33 and the stylus drag does not affect the heavy platter, why would the low tork result that way? I'm just asking.

You are correct. The user starts the platter with a quick spin and the inertia of the massive platter, topped up by the motor, keep it spinning at the correct speed regardless of what the arm and cartridge do. It just ploughs through without hesitation.

[montesquieu]

You are correct. The user starts the platter with a quick spin and the inertia of the massive platter, topped up by the motor, keep it spinning at the correct speed regardless of what the arm and cartridge do. It just ploughs through without hesitation.

In theory. Personally I have often found the belt drive, high mass approach ia bit bland.

[Desmo]

In your place, I'd definitely sell the Technics and save up for/get the Nottingham.

[Jimbo]

In theory. Personally I have often found the belt drive, high mass approach ia bit bland.

Then you haven't heard a VPI:)

[ChrisKemp]

That is precisely my thinking Chris! The trouble is I have heard so many reports of great bass of the 1200 (and SP10) there must be something to it. In fact my limited experience bears this out. My bass is taut and tight which I did not have on my Clearaudio turntable (actually a Marantz built by Clearaudio). It seems that the larger wave excursions of bass cause some drag and the high torque motor overcomes this better than the increased inertia of mass. I am not sure why this should be. Perhaps you need to go to the highest mountain and sit without food cross-legged for three days to ponder these mysteries.

Anyway, here are a couple of suggestions: one is to consider what would be achieved by a bass plate. I think it would reduce vibration by giving more rigidity. Vibration can be reduced in another easier, cheaper, safer, and reversible way if you did not like the result. Open up the TT, first from the top, and then from underneath so you have access to the metal chassis. Stick a damping material such as dynamat on every spare space. It works an absolute treat!

Another suggestion if you are looking for a change (in addition to an improvement) may be to look at your phono stage. This is the sort of thing that is easier to try at home. A nice valve stage may be the ticket! I think this is an area where a lot of improvement can be made because the signals are so small.
I follow you, Andrei! The 1210 has fantastic tight bass after the upgrades. My biggest upgrade in sound would be the Isokinetic tonearm and MN Bearing. I read a test of a respected reviewer in Norway, that not long ago reviewed the Nottingham Hyperspace. He wrote of fantastic built quality, dynamic open sound with very tight bass. The sound was dynamic and open on all sorts of music.

Then again, it costs alot of money. I know I would not go the upgrade route buying the cheaper Ace Spacedeck and then upgrading it to the level of a Hyperspace. If I buy a Nottingham it would be the Hyperspace. But I also love the sound of my 1210M5 with all the upgrades. Of course, the Hyperspace looks absolutely fantastic, but in the long run it's the sound that is the most important.

The ETP Platter with the base plate is not cheap either, but I love the way it changes the look of the Technics. As many of you know, I use a London Decca Super Gold. And even with Oyaide MJ-12 + Br-one, the platter is not silent. The Decca picks up everything and Hyperspace is well knoen for dead quiet backgrounds. Will 1210 with ETP/ baseplate be dead quiet too??

Is the ETP/ baseplate a big improvement or do owners use big words on small improvements? If you guys know what I mean.

[ChrisKemp]

You are correct. The user starts the platter with a quick spin and the inertia of the massive platter, topped up by the motor, keep it spinning at the correct speed regardless of what the arm and cartridge do. It just ploughs through without hesitation.
Thats how I think about it too. A heavy platter with a great bearing that spins at 33.33 all the time because of the heavy weight, would spin and plough through. Wouldn't it??

[hifi_dave]

Yes it does. No problem with drive and dynamics with a Nottingham Analogue.

BTW. You can't upgrade an Ace Spacedeck to a Hyperspace as there are differences to the motor mount and, crucially, the bearing, which is entirely different.

[Ants]

The direct (and rim or idler) drives obviate the need for big heavy platters and slow start up times and are speed stable due to quartz lock.
Sure they sound different but its a matter of whether the sound characteristics of the combination of turntable, tonearm, cable, cartridge match your preferences. Different turntable configurations will sound different and direct side to side comparisons need to utilise the the same tonearm, cable, cartridge on the two different turntables to ascertain if one turntable is 'better' than the other..... otherwise, everything else like others reviews are just subjective conjecture and hearsay- everyone perceives sound/ music reproduction differently - so you can only make meaningful judgements on what you hear, yourself. Direct comparisons with the different turntable drive units/ plinths with the the same tonearm, cable, cartridge combinations to compare the side to side differences are the ideal but are difficult, if not impossible, to organise and undertake. So my advice is to choose the turntable combination that suits you best - irrespective of what other people say, the way it looks etc. Cost is the main consideration you need to make other than what sound characteristics to value most or want to achieve. Other things like serviceability, spare parts, upgrade path are further considerations.

[Ants]

oops forgot to add quartz lock applies mainly to direct drives.....

[DSJR]

The Hyperspace is chalk to the Technics' cheese, so you can't really compare them - you are likely to love one but not the other. The Technics has that legendary sense of 'drive' but (IME at least) can be musically unsubtle. The Nottingham is exactly the opposite - fantastically musical and delicate with chamber type music, but its low-torque motor philosophy rather tends to let it down when the music gets really dynamic; indeed these decks almost seem to stumble when faced with deep, complicated rhythms. The AceSpace arm is possibly one of the best value arms out there - a true bargain that can be recommended whatever the turntable.

I'd love to hear a Hyperspace with a rim-drive system - that could well be the very best of all worlds.

To answer your question, if you like and enjoy your Technics you could be very disappointed with the Hyperspace.

Hugo, with respect, have you ever directly compared the two? the sheer mass of the Hyperspace platter totally negates the need for a high torque motor (this is what the Linn Lingo does too, just enough power to keep the platter spinning and no surplus which could cause vibration). The 'reason' why a high mass platter and high-drag bearing is often used on tweaked techies, apart from the butch look, may well be to smooth the over-eager Technics servo's for all I know.

The Hyperspace rocks too, really well if the arm and cartridge fitted allow it, but yes, it doesn't sonically jump in with both lead feet as a techie can. A heavily tweaked techie may not do this, but these are better compared to what exactly?

Sorry, I don't mean to thread crap here, but the OP really needs to directly compare the two as the stock techie doesn't offer much competition (told to me by an experienced trade poster here who's done the comparison with a medium-tweaked 1210 and who's ears I trust). A tricked out Techie may well be different though...

[Andrei]

Is the ETP/ baseplate a big improvement or do owners use big words on small improvements? If you guys know what I mean.
Of course big words are used. The thing is though that most of us are intimately familiar with our gear, we know exactly what it sounds like. So when we make a change for the better we hear it straight away and it seems to be a big change. I was a bit surprised at myself just recently when I heard an improvement in sound from just a headshell (Yamomoto Sound made from African Hardwood).

To be specific: An aftermarket platter will I am sure be an improvement. When I did my platter upgrade (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29662-DIY-Platter ) it really did tighten up the sound. I cannot say specifically about the ETP platter as I have not heard it. However it should be better if only because the Technics platter is poorly damped. On the other hand I think you have the best mat (for the Technics) out there and I understand it is made in part from butyl which is what I have put underneath my platter - so the improvement may be small.

[Ammonite Audio]

Hugo, with respect, have you ever directly compared the two? the sheer mass of the Hyperspace platter totally negates the need for a high torque motor (this is what the Linn Lingo does too, just enough power to keep the platter spinning and no surplus which could cause vibration). The 'reason' why a high mass platter and high-drag bearing is often used on tweaked techies, apart from the butch look, may well be to smooth the over-eager Technics servo's for all I know.

The Hyperspace rocks too, really well if the arm and cartridge fitted allow it, but yes, it doesn't sonically jump in with both lead feet as a techie can. A heavily tweaked techie may not do this, but these are better compared to what exactly?

Sorry, I don't mean to thread crap here, but the OP really needs to directly compare the two as the stock techie doesn't offer much competition (told to me by an experienced trade poster here who's done the comparison with a medium-tweaked 1210 and who's ears I trust). A tricked out Techie may well be different though...

Yes I have, more or less, in that I had a modded Technics at the same time as a Spacedeck with Heavy Platter and Wave Mechanic PSU. Not quite a Hyperspace but not that far off in terms of platter mass; and identical in terms of motor and PSU (IIRC it's only when you get to the Dais that a more elaborate PSU is used, with the same motor).

I do agree that the OP needs to hear both, since they are very different beasts.

[DSJR]

Thanks for clarifying. I never had a wow issue, but then, I came to them via an LP12 ;)

[ChrisKemp]

So many great views from all of you!! I´m only guessing, but I too do not think that an ETP will be such a huge upgrade compared to the Oyaide MJ-12 + BR-One. Espesially looking at the cost of the upgrade to an ETP platter.

I´m getting more and more sure that I will save up to a Hyperspace or 294, buy an original 1210M5G tonearm and sell the 1210M5G with all its upgrades. Then I´ll keep my Isokinetik Silver Melody tonearm and install that on a future Nottingham deck. That way I would like to have a 12" analogue arm + my Silver Melody arm on the deck.

I think the sound of a Hyperspace will please my ears and the pure joy of owning a beautiful turntable like the Hyperspace would be huge for me:)
But one day, I would like to take my 1210 to the Nottingham dealer and compare the two:)

http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/bransjenyheter/260552d1400238361-flott-omtale-av-nottingham-analogue-hyperspace-image.jpg

[Ammonite Audio]

Thanks for clarifying. I never had a wow issue, but then, I came to them via an LP12 ;)

I never had a wow issue with the NA either.

[Marco]

Hi Chris,


So many great views from all of you!! I´m only guessing, but I too do not think that an ETP will be such a huge upgrade compared to the Oyaide MJ-12 + BR-One. Espesially looking at the cost of the upgrade to an ETP platter.


I've used both on my SL-1210 MK5G, and my experience strongly contradicts your assertion. The ETP addresses and improves fundamental areas of the musical presentation of the Technics that are completely beyond the capabilities of the Oyaide.


I´m getting more and more sure that I will save up to a Hyperspace or 294, buy an original 1210M5G tonearm and sell the 1210M5G with all its upgrades. Then I´ll keep my Isokinetik Silver Melody tonearm and install that on a future Nottingham deck. That way I would like to have a 12" analogue arm + my Silver Melody arm on the deck.

I think the sound of a Hyperspace will please my ears and the pure joy of owning a beautiful turntable like the Hyperspace would be huge for me...


I think that last sentiment says a great deal.

By all means go for a Hyperspace, if that's what you truly want, as it's your ears and your system, but understand that a judiciously modified 1210 and a Hyperspace are two entirely different entities, with both excelling in certain areas of vinyl reproduction. It's rather like comparing Gevrey Chambertin with St-Émilion: both are superb in their own right, but also exhibit unique charms all of their own - and so it is with the two T/Ts in question!

Just make sure that you make the right decision, based on genuine knowledge and insight, and not simply on which one 'tickles your sensibilities' most - if your ownership of a top-notch T/T is to max-out on your enjoyment of music, rather than your admiration of an attractive ornament ;)

Marco.

[ChrisKemp]

I've used both on my SL-1210 MK5G, and my experience strongly contradicts your assertion. The ETP addresses and improves fundamental areas of the musical presentation of the Technics that are completely beyond the capabilities of the Oyaide.
If I could have tested an ETP platter before ordering, that would make it alot easier for me to deside. The ETP cost almost £600 + VAT. And with the ETP I must have the Base Plate as well. That is a serious amount of cash for me without beeing able to compare it to what I have to day. If I sell my 1210M5G and save up about the same amount as the cost of ETP+base plate I´m getting close to a Hyperspace or Ace Spacedeck with heavy kit.




By all means go for a Hyperspace, if that's what you truly want, as it's your ears and your system, but understand that a judiciously modified 1210 and a Hyperspace are two entirely different entities, with both excelling in certain areas of vinyl reproduction. It's rather like comparing Gevrey Chambertin with St-Émilion: both are superb in their own right, but also exhibit unique charms all of their own - and so it is with the two T/Ts in question!

Just make sure that you make the right decision, based on genuine knowledge and insight, and not simply on which one 'tickles your sensibilities' most - if your ownership of a top-notch T/T is to max-out on your enjoyment of music, rather than your admiration of an attractive ornament ;)

Marco.
As I understand, Marco, you have heard the Hyperspace. And I know how much you like the sound of your modified 1210M5G, but could you please try to describe the difference in sound presentation of the two turntables. Maybe difficult to describe, but I will be very happy if you try:)

[Marco]

Hi Chris,


And with the ETP I must have the Base Plate as well.


Nope. Who told you that? I happily, and very satisfactorily, used the ETP without a base-plate for some time before I got one! The BBP [bearing base plate] is merely a desirable addition (mainly to allow the MN bearing to perform at its maximum potential), not a mandatory one.


As I understand, Marco, you have heard the Hyperspace. And I know how much you like the sound of your modified 1210M5G, but could you please try to describe the difference in sound presentation of the two turntables.

Well, the fundamental differences between both T/Ts mainly (although not exclusively) derive from the intrinsic 'house sound' imparted by their respective drive systems, rather than subjectively which is the 'best' turntable. Quite simply, direct-drive presents music in a certain way, as indeed does belt-drive, and which you prefer in the end will largely be influenced by that effect and how each drive system solves (or otherwise) the challenges of accurate vinyl replay.

I believe that you already own a modded Technics, and so will be familiar with how that sounds, so I'll concentrate instead on what the Hyperspace would be likely to bring to the party, in terms of what I've outlined above. First of all, you should expect the Hyperspace to deliver better soundstaging, instrumental and vocal separation, together with low-level detail retrieval and a superior ability to resolve the 'structural' content within music, and to overall convey greater musical subtlety than the Technics - all of which derive from the inherent differences in how their respective drive systems make both T/Ts 'tick'.

Furthermore, aside from that, due to the nature of the Hyperspace's high-mass design, it majors on delivering low-end impact and bass authority, arguably a little at the expense of overall clarity/openness and high-frequency 'sparkle', although of course much of that effect will be arm and cartridge dependent. Essentially, the Hyperspace produces a very accomplished sound, but one that could be said to be somewhat safe or 'sober'.

A judiciously modified Technics, on the other hand, especially one fitted with an MN bearing (and base-plate), ETP platter and a top-notch off-board PSU, such as a Paul Hynes SR7, presuming the existence of a suitably capable arm and cartridge, is a different ball-game entirely, and 'propels' music along with an infectious impetus and élan, which is totally unique and alien to ANY belt-drive T/T. Pace, rhythm and timing are also in a different league, as indeed are leading edge definition and perceived 'speed' - all of which combine to produce a 'peppier' sound, than that delivered by the Hyperspace, brim-full of vitality and joie de vivre.

Therefore, if the Hyperspace produces a somewhat conservatively controlled and 'sober' sound, the Technics is altogether more ebullient and 'feisty'. The most grin-inducing aspect of its musical delivery, however, is the uncanny way that it sync-locks rhythms, making beat-driven music in particular, foot-tappingly infectious, as well as realistically portrayed, by preserving all of the music's 'fun factor'. In that respect, IMO, a judiciously modified Technics is unrivalled and can make most T/Ts sound fundamentally 'broken'.

In summary, if you're looking for an overall more polished and sophisticated musical presentation, majoring in fluidity and muscular authority, then you'll get that with the Hyperspace, but in my experience, at the expense of that certain magic which makes recorded music truly come alive, and with the appropriate material, give you goosebumps, which the Technics (suitably modified with the items outlined) is capable of delivering in spades!

As they say, however, the decision is yours. Hope that helps :cool:

Marco.

[Tarzan]

I had and Orbe with a Rega arm and a top speck LP12, ekos arm etc but preferred my 1210 to both of them! The 1210 just has great drive and boogie factor.

Get a ETP platter and sell the MJ-12 as you won't need it to raise funds.

Please think very carefully, once you sell your 1210 you cant get it back as the 1210, Oyaide MJ-12 are all discontinued!


:scratch: Had the Orbe been underwater?

[Marco]

I had and Orbe with a Rega arm and a top speck LP12, ekos arm etc but preferred my 1210 to both of them! The 1210 just has great drive and boogie factor.


Yes, that's the major strength of the Technics [especially when judiciously modified]: it boogies like a bastard (and in a way that nothing else I've heard can)! Depends though, on how important that is to you. For me, it's essential :)

Marco.

[struth]

Yes, that's the major strength of the Technics [especially when judiciously modified]: it boogies like a bastard (and in a way that nothing else I've heard can)! Depends though, on how important that is to you. For me, it's essential :)

Marco.

Boy, I must be a great boogyer:eyebrows:

[Marco]

Yesh, I've seen you... :dance: :dance: :dance:

Only thing it looks a little different when you're wearing an adult nappy and a pirate's outfit! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[allthingsanalogue]

:scratch: Had the Orbe been underwater?

Nope, I actually used to sell both and after I bought the orbe I wish I had have bought the Gyro. I found the orbe far to heavy in the bass department.

[Marco]

Any comments on my earlier post, Chris?

:popcorn: :popcorn:

Marco.

[DSJR]

Nope, I actually used to sell both and after I bought the orbe I wish I had have bought the Gyro. I found the orbe far to heavy in the bass department.


Has anyone ever made a wooden armboard for a Gyro or Orbe? I'm still suspicious of aluminium plates for Rega/big SME arms although that's what's been used for more than thirty five years on these decks - I still think the best I ever heard a Rega RB arm was on a Spacedeck with it's collet mount for the arm, allowing height adjustment.

[ChrisKemp]

Hi, Marco:)
I´m sorry for not answering your exellent reply to my question sooner, but I worked night shift last night and just got out of bed:zzz:


Hi Chris,
Nope. Who told you that? I happily, and very satisfactorily, used the ETP without a base-plate for some time before I got one! The BBP [bearing base plate] is merely a desirable addition (mainly to allow the MN bearing to perform at its maximum potential), not a mandatory one.
I know, and it was me not beeing clear here. I meant that if I take the Technics all the way out and invest in an ETP platter I "must" innstall the BBP also, to complete the fully modification:) I did´nt mean it literary.




Well, the fundamental differences between both T/Ts mainly (although not exclusively) derive from the intrinsic 'house sound' imparted by their respective drive systems, rather than subjectively which is the 'best' turntable. Quite simply, direct-drive presents music in a certain way, as indeed does belt-drive, and which you prefer in the end will largely be influenced by that effect and how each drive system solves (or otherwise) the challenges of accurate vinyl replay.
Now, it´s getting interesting:cool:



I believe that you already own a modded Technics, and so will be familiar with how that sounds, so I'll concentrate instead on what the Hyperspace would be likely to bring to the party, in terms of what I've outlined above.
Yes, my 1210M5G is pretty much fully modified, but the ETP platter. But as you know now I have the Oyaide MJ-12 + BR-One. In the last couple of months, I have demoed turntables like Rega P9, Rega RP-8 and even the Rega RP-10. Compared to my modded 1210 I was not impressed at all. One of my favorite LPs is Hugh Masekela "Stimela" (45 RPM LP). The whole record is live from a gig in a small New York club. The sound is so dynamic and the song "Stimela" really put your turntable to the test. With my 1210M5G the sound i so incredibly dynamic, foot tappingly enjoyable and the word PRaT really comes to mind. I get the sense of "being there":gig:
With any of the three Rega turntable I heard I got the feeling :pat: Everything was so laid back and the urge to foot tap was gone. It played good music, but everyone is saying that the top Rega turntables are so dynamic and fun. I find them a little boring actually:rolleyes:



First of all, you should expect the Hyperspace to deliver better soundstaging, instrumental and vocal separation, together with low-level detail retrieval and a superior ability to resolve the 'structural' content within music, and to overall convey greater musical subtlety than the Technics - all of which derive from the inherent differences in how their respective drive systems make both T/Ts 'tick'.
I like that you say low level detail retrieval and musicality. I play alot of jazz and old Decca classical LPs and femail vocalists...


Furthermore, aside from that, due to the nature of the Hyperspace's high-mass design, it majors on delivering low-end impact and bass authority, arguably a little at the expense of overall clarity/openness and high-frequency 'sparkle', although of course much of that effect will be arm and cartridge dependent. Essentially, the Hyperspace produces a very accomplished sound, but one that could be said to be somewhat safe or 'sober'.
If that means that bass is tight, that is very good. I did not find any tightness in the Rega bass. It´s just too lose for my taste. The three top Avid turntables I demoed last month was in a whole different league than the Rega players all together... So if the Nottingham is anything like a top Avid Volvere...because that sound I did like. But even the top Avid did not have the same PRaT (even with an expensive cart like the Lyra Atlas) as my modified 1210M5G with a London Decca Super Gold:eyebrows:



A judiciously modified Technics, on the other hand, especially one fitted with an MN bearing (and base-plate), ETP platter and a top-notch off-board PSU, such as a Paul Hynes SR7, presuming the existence of a suitably capable arm and cartridge, is a different ball-game entirely, and 'propels' music along with an infectious impetus and élan, which is totally unique and alien to ANY belt-drive T/T. Pace, rhythm and timing are also in a different league, as indeed are leading edge definition and perceived 'speed' - all of which combine to produce a 'peppier' sound, than that delivered by the Hyperspace, brim-full of vitality and joie de vivre.
So I will get SO much more with the ETP+BBP compared to just the Mike New and the Oyaide combo? That IS interesting.


Therefore, if the Hyperspace produces a somewhat conservatively controlled and 'sober' sound, the Technics is altogether more ebullient and 'feisty'. The most grin-inducing aspect of its musical delivery, however, is the uncanny way that it sync-locks rhythms, making beat-driven music in particular, foot-tappingly infectious, as well as realistically portrayed, by preserving all of the music's 'fun factor'. In that respect, IMO, a judiciously modified Technics is unrivalled and can make most T/Ts sound fundamentally 'broken'.

In summary, if you're looking for an overall more polished and sophisticated musical presentation, majoring in fluidity and muscular authority, then you'll get that with the Hyperspace, but in my experience, at the expense of that certain magic which makes recorded music truly come alive, and with the appropriate material, give you goosebumps, which the Technics (suitably modified with the items outlined) is capable of delivering in spades!

As they say, however, the decision is yours. Hope that helps :cool:
Marco.
Yes, I like my music to get me tapping my feet and feeling like am in a smokey club listening to a jazz singer in front of me. Or at the opera listening to the full dynamite of an orcestra! Indeed I do, but sometimes I miss a little refinement in the Technics too. Well, of course I have a dynamite of a cartridge, I know, but if a ETP+BBP can give me more refinement and detail in the upper midrange (air and dimension); well then I guess I just have to demo a Hyperspace next to my current 1210. Because if I like my 1210 better than the Hyperspace as it is now, then it would be a smart upgrade to get a ETP platter. If only someone could have been kind enough to lend out an extra ETP platter for demoing:stalks:

Thank you so much, Marco, for giving a reply just as I wanted! I have read it several times now, and it really is much easier for me to understand how the two turntables compare:)

[allthingsanalogue]

As you can see, my TT is similar in mods to yours. I'm adding a Paul Hynes SR-3 21 to mine and apparently the upgrade of the PSU is bigger than the arm upgrade. I'm also getting my new DV cart tomorrow (low output). I'm also seriously considering the ETP platter, although I'll miss the strobe markings!

An MJ-12 sold on ebay the other day for £205, s/h! As I will no longer need mine I could sell it to help pay for the ETP.

I had a LP12 with Ekos arm, Archiv cart, etc. but sold it and bought the Orbe with a RB-250 arm, to my ears I found it to be very quiet and detailed but to bass heavy which to me sounded like it slowed down the music. Then I went into a record store one day to buy some vinyl and listened to a very basic 1210 and was surprised by how foot tapping it was, the rest was history.

I don't think I could stretch to fitting a Base plate as it's a mod I would fear doing wrong and totally messing up the whole deck, also another 6mm increase in height on top of the slightly higher platter, I don't think I could adjust the RB-700 arm to go much higher, it's already got 3 2mm spacers! Although I'm sure the ETP would be a massive improvement.

[ChrisKemp]

Yes, I too heard a big difference after I took out the internal PSU and repalced it with the top PSU from Mains Cables.

I hear you with bass heavy vinyl rigs. That is what I´m most affraid of if I get the ETP platter. I do not want more bass, because the amount and the tightness I have now is just perfect.

[CageyH]

I'm adding a Paul Hynes SR-3 21 to mine and apparently the upgrade of the PSU is bigger than the arm upgrade.

Just to throw a spanner in the works, the biggest upgrade I made to my SL1200 was the arm.
Everything else made a difference, but it was not even in the same league as the arm upgrade.

[Marco]

Hi Chris,


I hear you with bass heavy vinyl rigs. That is what I´m most affraid of if I get the ETP platter. I do not want more bass, because the amount and the tightness I have now is just perfect.

Rest assured that is not what happens, when an ETP is fitted - far from it.

The best thing the ETP does is, sonically, remove itself from the equation, due to how well designed it is, and out of material which is ideal for interfacing accurately with vinyl records. It also rings not a jot (unlike metal platters or mats). As such, it has very little intrinsic sound of its own, allowing you simply to immerse yourself in wonderful sounding music, which is exactly what you want from a turntable platter.

I use my ETP in conjunction with a Nagaoka crystal glass T/T mat, and I've heard no better combination on the Technics. It blows the stock platter, fitted with an Oyaide mat, into the weeds :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Thank you so much, Marco, for giving a reply just as I wanted! I have read it several times now, and it really is much easier for me to understand how the two turntables compare:)

You're welcome - glad it helped, as I know how difficult it is trying to judge these things blind :)

Marco.

[ChrisKemp]

After your helpful reply, Marco, I have been gving it a long thought. I really like the sound of my 1210M5G and it's in perfect condition. Not a scratch on it. And with all the mods I've done, there is some kind of bond between me and my M5G:) I think after a short time, I would regret selling the beauty:)

So I'm 100% sure now. My plan: save up for a future ETP platter from Mike, together with the bearing base plate. Then I would like to upgrade the armboard to a wooden speedy Steve and a wooden headshell for my London Decca Super Gold. With all that in place I think it's going to be hard to beat the soundquality of my 1210M5G:):)

[ChrisKemp]

Just sold my Oyaide MJ-12 today and ETP Platter is about to be ordered. I cannot part with my 1210:)

[Tarzan]

Just sold my Oyaide MJ-12 today and ETP Platter is about to be ordered. I cannot part with my 1210:)


Yay! That makes sense Chris:)

[allthingsanalogue]

Good news indeed. Lots of other TT's sound diferent, some beter in some areas but none are as enjoyable to listen to than a SL1210 modded.

I would like an ETP but I've spent so much money recently that if I spend anymore at the moment it might end in divorce! I will get an ETP soon though. I'm looking forward to an update when yours arrives.

Andrew

[Soulman]

I was going to add my 2p's worth but have jst seen you've made your decision...

I've owned a lightly modded 1210 (feet, modded rb250, offboard psu) and currently have a 2007 Spacedeck with Spacearm. Frankly you can't even mention them in the same breath as it's not even close, the NA has plenty of drive and I feel it keeps time better in any ways (I'm sure the servo constantly trying to keep the light platter spinning at 33.3 is audible) and absolutely destroys the techie I had in terms of musicality and ability to define what the performers are doing. I'm currently trying a Trans-fi Terminator linear air arm and the spacedeck has improved again.

I'm not sure where this "lack of drive" comes from, DD turntables are a bit hurried and rough sounding comared to the best belt and idler drives. My next upgrade will be a Hyperspace or a rim drive (Transfi Salvation is the only one I could afford so will have to pop to Vic's for a listen).

[Marco]

Hi Des,


I've owned a lightly modded 1210 (feet, modded rb250, offboard psu) and currently have a 2007 Spacedeck with Spacearm. Frankly you can't even mention them in the same breath as it's not even close...


Fair enough, as that's obviously what your ears are telling you.

However, from my experience I'd say that what you were largely hearing was the sonic superiority of the Spacearm over the RB250, which in my opinion is considerable, especially as an RB250 is one of the worst arms you can fit to a 1210, if you want to create any form of synergy. Also, did you compare both T/Ts with the same cartridge? :)


(I'm sure the servo constantly trying to keep the light platter spinning at 33.3 is audible)...


Not in my experience it isn't.

However, if you feel it is, then that's as good a reason as any to upgrade the platter to one of the better (more solidly constructed) aftermarket options available, as you presumably have a decent PSU to drive it, and at the same time eradicate the sonically deleterious effects of the rather resonant stock item.

That, IMO, is a significant contributory factor (along with the tonearm difference) as to why your NA "destroys the techie".


I'm not sure where this "lack of drive" comes from, DD turntables are a bit hurried and rough sounding comared to the best belt and idler drives.

Well, in my experience, most (but not all) belt-driven T/Ts sound 'soft', and lacking in low-end authority, in comparison with a well-sorted direct drive - and then of course there is the issue of pitch stability [especially when reproducing solo piano], which also in my experience allows the Techy to 'destroy' most belt-drives, including the NAS.

At the end of the day, however, there is no 'perfect' turntable - all are a collection of compromises, so one pays one's money and takes one's choice, which is precisely what Chris has done. I have no reason to suspect that he'll regret the decision to stick with his Technics :cool:

Marco.

[Soulman]

I'm sure he'll love it Marco and many others do as well but, fo me, it'll aways be trying a little to hard and be a bit rough around the edges and the servo hunting around must have a negative effect, maybe in the same way jitter affects our enjoyment of music from a digital source. I also don't understand the rationale behind buying a £500 deck and then spending £5k on it trying to get it to the level of other good turntables (bit like people spending money on modding cars, half of them end up very expensive and rubbsh but the cost involved means they can't admit to any mistakes). I'm sure your techie sounds totally different to a stock one, or the one I sold recently but that kind of expenditure buys an awful lot of turntable used.

Each to his own though, it's a good thing people like different things, it's what makes bakeoffs so enjoyable :)

[Marco]

Hi Des,

For me the 'servo hunting' thing is a total non-issue, both technically and sonically.

National Panasonic dealt with that by introducing the 'Quartz lock' system, and sonically, I can hear none of the effects you describe with my own T/T - not even remotely, and certainly what you're referring to is nothing like as obvious to my ears as the issues relating to pitch instability, created by a rubber band being driven by a puny little motor; a concept which to me is both fundamentally and fatally flawed.

We'll also have to agree to disagree on the issue of modifications, as in my case what I've ended up with is a totally bespoke turntable, capable of competing against the best - indeed I've tested it against such on numerous occasions, and it's never disgraced itself so far! ;)


Each to his own though, it's a good thing people like different things, it's what makes bakeoffs so enjoyable...


Absolutely, and I couldn't agree more.

You're only in Sheffield, so why don't I pop round sometime, bring the Techy with me, and let you compare it to your NAS, in your own system? I'll bring the beers round and we can have a little mini-bake off :)

I'm sure that would be an interesting experience for both of us, and one that will end in you being able to comment from a genuine position of authority on just how good (or otherwise) you perceive a judiciously modified Techy to be, and crucially whether to your ears you consider what I've spent on has been worth it.

I'm always up for some constructive feedback and the opportunity to listen to some good choons! :cool:

Marco.

[montesquieu]

Been through quite a bit of this journey, including a lesser-model Technics and a rather nice Denon, both DDs.

I had an LP12 for 20 years (bought with a very early pay cheque after I got my first job), being brought up in Lanarkshire a few miles from the Linn factory meant there was only one side to the 'best TT in the world' argument in the circles I was brought up in!

This got put in the loft when kids arrived, for about 6-7 years, and not long after I brought it out again, I was gobsmacked when I heard my first Townshend Rock, which rather put the Linn (classic Valhalla/tictock/ATOC9) in the shade. Bought a Rock Reference, then a 401, fiddled with plinths, arms and a Bastin PSU, went to a 3 motor Voyd, in parallel played with the aforementioned Denon and assorted modded Lencos, before ending up with a TD124 MkII. Never had a techie though not even an unmodded one for the study.

As you say Marco they all have strengths and weaknesses. Normal belt drive TTs (even the Voyd) don't cut it for me these days, as a musician with a hit of perfect pitch on a good day, they just wobble too much. I've heard this on NA and Clearaudio TTs as well (can't remember models/PSUs/heavy or not heavy kit) though in these high mass decks the problem was, for me, less pronounced than 'normal' belt drive decks which for me now are unlistenable. But I still doubt I could live with one. I have enjoyed listening to a fully kitted out Gyrodeck but again, a small amount of pitch wobble was still audible.

Which, for me, leaves the idlers. I'm not a huge fan of the 301 finding it dark. The 401 is better I think (well, mine was very good) but even with the PSU in heavy plinth and with good 12in arms, it was **just** a shade unsubtle. Moddded Lencos I think can improve on the 401 with the right setup. So my destination has been the Thorens. Though it has its own issues and needs far more maintenance than any of the above, clearing rubber off the stepper pulley being a regular chore. Mine has had the motor stripped and rebuilt by Martin Bastin and I must say it's an absolute joy. Intensely musical.

All this is for mainly for lieder and chamber music, which needs drive AND subtlety, but not necessarily a thick, heavy sound. And Jazz of course. You might end up somewhere different (Garrard?) for rock and electronica.

I have to say I'm skeptical of claims for modded Techies. I've enjoyed the several SP10s I've heard, but wouldn't swap any of them for my Thorens, or even for a properly sorted Garrard. I don't really see the logic in modding a mass market consumer deck when Technics already made the premium version and they are fairly widely available. I'd love to hear a fully modded 1210 in my system though - it's certainly impressive what people have engineered for them, leaving only the motor essentially it seems.

BTW I have a Dual 1019 in the study system and for all its lack of high-end pretension, it's a huge amount of fun and would embarrass many a modern deck at £1000 or more.

As for arms, that's another can of worms altogether .....

[Soulman]

Hi Des,

For me the 'servo hunting' thing is a total non-issue, both technically and sonically.

National Panasonic dealt with that by introducing the 'Quartz lock' system, and sonically, I can hear none of the effects you describe with my own T/T - not even remotely, and certainly what you're referring to is nothing like as obvious to my ears as the issues relating to pitch instability, created by a rubber band being driven by a puny little motor; a concept which to me is both fundamentally and fatally flawed.

We'll also have to agree to disagree on the issue of modification, as in my case what I've ended up with is a superb, totally bespoke turntable, capable of competing against the best - indeed I've tested it against such on numerous occasions, and it's never disgraced itself so far! ;)



Absolutely, and I couldn't agree more.

You're only in Sheffield, so why don't I pop round sometime, bring the Techy with me, and let you compare it to your NAS, in your own system? I'll bring the beers round and we can have a little mini-bake off :)

I'm sure that would be an interesting experience for both of us, and one that will end in you being able to comment from a genuine position of authority on just how good (or otherwise) you perceive a judiciously modified Techy to be, and crucially whether to your ears you consider what I've spent on it is worth it.

I'm always up for some constructive feedback and the opportunity to listen to some good choons! :cool:

Marco.

Sounds like a plan, busy for a few weeks but then saturdays or evenings after mid july are good for me. I'll happily provde beer, drinks, food for the mini bake....

[Soulman]

Some interesting stuff there Tom, my ears probably aren't good enough to notice small pitch imperfections, or maybe it's something I can mentally tune out.

Personally if I change the NA it will be for something like the Tans-fi Salvation as Vic seems to be looking to solve the things I don't like and can't tune out (end of side distortion for one, uncontrolled bass is another) and his arm and deck look like they match my own personal thoughts on how it should sound. Added dynamics would be great (rim drive) but not at the expense of subtlety (which I find the 301, 401 and techie all suffer from).

If it was cheaper I'd get the Verus rim drive for the NA but it's pricy and I can upgrade to the transfi for less than a verus would cost.

[Marco]

Hi Tom,

Good post. Needless to say, we're largely in agreement :)


I have to say I'm skeptical of claims for modded Techies. I've enjoyed the several SP10s I've heard, but wouldn't swap any of them for my Thorens, or even for a properly sorted Garrard. I don't really see the logic in modding a mass market consumer deck when Technics already made the premium version and they are fairly widely available.


Lots of folks are sceptical, and rightly so. I would be too if I hadn't heard one or knew just how good they can be when judiciously modified.

There's a difference, though, between sceptical and cynical. Sceptical is healthy, cynical isn't. Too many folk in the latter category simply just won't accept that a "mass market consumer deck" can compete with 'proper high-end turntables', through stubborn, narrow-minded and age-old prejudice - and I have no time for such blinkered and closed minds :nono:

You, however, obviously don't come into that category.

As you know, I've compared my T/T with numerous (very good SP10s) and afterwards have never once felt the desire to sell my own T/T, and go out and buy an SP10; indeed it's been more a case of the owners of the latter considering selling their SP10s and following what I've done - and at least my T/T is full of new (and not 40 year-old) electronics! ;)


I'd love to hear a fully modded 1210 in my system though - it's certainly impressive what people have engineered for them, leaving only the motor essentially it seems.


We've had a bake-off at your place planned for ages, so why don't we get something put into the diary? You'll need to choose what kit you'd like me most to bring down, as the Croft/Copper amp and all the Techy stuff would probably be a little too much to get through, especially with all the superb music we'll be listening to :cool:

Marco.

[Marco]

Sounds like a plan, busy for a few weeks but then saturdays or evenings after mid july are good for me. I'll happily provde beer, drinks, food for the mini bake....

No worries, same here. Mid July sounds good, though. Just PM me when you fancy it, but give me at least a week's notice :thumbsup:

Marco.

[aniki]

... and the servo hunting around must have a negative effect, maybe in the same way jitter affects our enjoyment of music from a digital source...

No. The Technics Servo does not 'hunt'. In fact it 'speed corrects' approximately 50 times per second.
Is it audible? You bet it is! It sounds 'correct'. This is what gives it its potential to sound so freaking awesome!
In fact it is one of the most speed accurate turntable mechanisms in the world, at any price.

[allthingsanalogue]

No. The Technics Servo does not 'hunt'. In fact it 'speed corrects' approximately 50 times per second.
Is it audible? You bet it is! It sounds 'correct'. This is what gives it its potential to sound so freaking awesome!
In fact it is one of the most speed accurate turntable mechanisms in the world, at any price.

:D

[montesquieu]

Hi Tom,


We've had a bake-off at your place planned for ages, so why don't we get something put into the diary? You'll need to choose what kit you'd like me most to bring down, as the Croft/Copper amp and all the Techy stuff would probably be a little too much to get through, especially with all the superb music we'll be listening to :cool:

Marco.


Hi Marco, yes I've been putting off firming anything up (I also have a Classical Music Day planned) awaiting my scratch build preamp from Will at Radford Revival, to go with the STA100, but due to pressure of work his end that seems to have slipped in the schedule, so maybe I should just pick some dates and get on with it (most likely in August if that's possible as I'm away part of July at a wedding and a bit later in Finland - visting the bloke I bought the ST100 as it happens). Will's loaner Woodside SC26 is far from shabby and will certainly do the necessary.

On the Techie, I'm certainly prepared to be persuaded, I've learned long ago in this game that preconceptions are for confronting and often for confounding. Within reason of course (or at least, within the laws of physics).

I suspect TTs are the best way to go for a sesh. While it would be interesting to hear the Copper amp in this setup, I have a stong suspicion that the outcome would be much the same as when an EAR 890 came to visit - another KT90 equipped, very well-sorted PP amp, it sounded very very similar into the Tannoys as the Radford, and so it should being just a perfect match into these speakers.

Having fun tonight playing with my Miyajima Shilabe, recently arrived 1961 Ortofon SPU GE (again - I missed the one I sold!) and a Shibata-tipped Denon 103, all things pretty up your street I would reckon!

[ChrisKemp]

I'm sure he'll love it Marco and many others do as well but, fo me, it'll aways be trying a little to hard and be a bit rough around the edges and the servo hunting around must have a negative effect, maybe in the same way jitter affects our enjoyment of music from a digital source. I also don't understand the rationale behind buying a £500 deck and then spending £5k on it trying to get it to the level of other good turntables (bit like people spending money on modding cars, half of them end up very expensive and rubbsh but the cost involved means they can't admit to any mistakes). I'm sure your techie sounds totally different to a stock one, or the one I sold recently but that kind of expenditure buys an awful lot of turntable used.

Each to his own though, it's a good thing people like different things, it's what makes bakeoffs so enjoyable :)

I think for many hifi enthusiasts it would be easier to "swallow" the cost of upgrades on the SL12xx if the price for the original TT was high end priced. If the price for a SL was around £5000 from start, then it would make sence to upgrade it for another £5000:) Is it more sensible to pay alot of money upgrading a VPI Classic 1 to a Classic 3 plus peripher ring clamp and heavier platter, to fully upgrade a NAS Hyperspace with heavy platter, PSU and arm or a Transrotor ZET-1 to a heavy platter, double belt drive, TMD bearing like the ZET-3.

To me it's the other way around. It makes more sense upgrading a TT like the SL12xx to a high end sounding table, rather than finding the need to upgrade an already hiend priced table that should sound great in the first place, looking at the price tag.... :D

[Marco]

Hi Marco, yes I've been putting off firming anything up (I also have a Classical Music Day planned) awaiting my scratch build preamp from Will at Radford Revival, to go with the STA100, but due to pressure of work his end that seems to have slipped in the schedule, so maybe I should just pick some dates and get on with it (most likely in August if that's possible...


Sounds good to me, Tom. We're not having a summer holiday this year [instead selling one of our smaller UK properties, and using the dosh to 'do up' the one we live in], so a sesh in August would be cool :)


On the Techie, I'm certainly prepared to be persuaded, I've learned long ago in this game that preconceptions are for confronting and often for confounding. Within reason of course (or at least, within the laws of physics).


Exactly; I couldn't agree more.

There are too many folk, especially on forums, who seem scared to think outside of the box or challenge their belief system, and most importantly re-evaluate, and if necessary alter, ancient, rigidly held opinions... The sheer intransigence displayed boils my piss! ALL of us should always be willing to learn in this game, or admit mistakes, and not think that we already know it all.

Arrogance has always been a rather ugly trait!


I suspect TTs are the best way to go for a sesh. While it would be interesting to hear the Copper amp in this setup, I have a stong suspicion that the outcome would be much the same as when an EAR 890 came to visit - another KT90 equipped, very well-sorted PP amp, it sounded very very similar into the Tannoys as the Radford, and so it should being just a perfect match into these speakers.

Having fun tonight playing with my Miyajima Shilabe, recently arrived 1961 Ortofon SPU GE (again - I missed the one I sold!) and a Shibata-tipped Denon 103, all things pretty up your street I would reckon!

Yup, defo. Ok, that sounds like a plan, so when you can, swing me (via PM) some proposed dates for August :cool:

Marco.

[DSJR]

Hi Des,

For me the 'servo hunting' thing is a total non-issue, both technically and sonically.

National Panasonic dealt with that by introducing the 'Quartz lock' system, Marco.


PLEASE may I add that the top line Technics (and others I know from Sony and Pioneer amongst many) decks of the early to mid 70's, before quartz locking came into being domestically, didn't servo hunt at all. Like my Dual 701, they have a lazy servo which will correct speed under moderate drag, but not overshoot when the load is removed - they're more like a good silent belt drive IMO. There WAS an OEM Matsushita direct drive motor used by all and sundry 'other' manufacturers (Rotel, Trio/Kenwood I think,Monitor Audio, JBE and Garrard [DD75] that come to mind), which used to servo hunt all over the place if play-weight went much over 2g and I remember the Technics SL2000 cheapo model, that hunted at 1,5g tracking force, a ghastly thing :( It was these that helped give 'direct drive' a bad name I recall and of course, in the UK, Linn and their often ignorant dealers (of which I was one, although I hope I was a tad more enlightened than many) all but took the market over for fifteen years or more while other markets embraced cord drive heavyweghts - IMO...

I love the NAS Hyperspace, but like all Tom's old designs, it prefers the matching arm (HFW tested their review one with a sodding SME and claimed the sound was musical but 'polite'). No wonder!!!!!! The NAS arm and graphite platter do full (and exceptionally truthful IMO) service with good Decca's and other lively, communicative cartridges IME - ask Hifi Dave as he sells 'em!

As for jitter in 'digital,' I *thought* that was another loss-leader that had been sorted decades ago and never an issue now, despite what the 'me-too' add-on brigade tell you.

[ChrisKemp]

Read trough this thread and must thank every one of you and espesially Marco, that with his post tipped my scale to buy the ETP. I'm back to the Denon DL-103R again, but this time with an Isokinetik brass stabiliser of 8,5g. Total mass of headshell, cart and stabiliser is 31g. Together with the ETP platter the music is SO good; with greater dynamic and blacker background. I was afraid of getting more bass, but what I got with the ETP was deeper, tighter and more tuneful bass. The highs and mids are clearer and the deck just sound SO fantastic.

:cool:

[allthingsanalogue]

My base plate and etp will arrive soon to me also!

[dmckean]

Read trough this thread and must thank every one of you and espesially Marco, that with his post tipped my scale to buy the ETP. I'm back to the Denon DL-103R again, but this time with an Isokinetik brass stabiliser of 8,5g. Total mass of headshell, cart and stabiliser is 31g. Together with the ETP platter the music is SO good; with greater dynamic and blacker background. I was afraid of getting more bass, but what I got with the ETP was deeper, tighter and more tuneful bass. The highs and mids are clearer and the deck just sound SO fantastic.

:cool:

When you wear that one out, treat yourself to the Zu version of this cartridge.

[Marco]

Hi, are you Dave whom I used to chat with on the Audiocircle? :)

If so, I hope you're keeping well :cool:

Marco.

[dmckean]

Yes Marco, that's me and I'm doing great.

I'm back to to upgrade the Techie. I have a MN bearing and ETP platter on order. I'm still trying to decide what direction to go with on the arm, there's so many great choices available.

[Marco]

Nice one, Dave. You'll find all the info you need in The Techiepedia section. If there's anything I can help you with outside of that, just ask! :)

Marco.

[CageyH]

I'm still trying to decide what direction to go with on the arm, there's so many great choices available.

That is probably the toughest decision.

[Marco]

At the budget end, a Jelco SA-750 is a shoe-in, especially J7-rewired and fitted with one of Shuggie's collars! :)

Marco.

[dmckean]

I've been looking at everything up to the $2000 (~£1300) range. There just looks to be so many good choices and it can be hard to narrow it down.

[dmckean]

Besides the re-wired Jelco with upgraded collar and it's brother the Isokinetik Silver Melody, I've been looking pretty seriously at:

Ortofon AS-212S
Ortofon TA-110
SME M2-9
SME M2-9-R

I'd be able to keep using all my current cartridges with the above.

also considering:
Funk FX-3
Origin Live Illustrious MK3C
Nottingham Analogue Ace Space

also curious about:
Pro-ject Signature (lost of chrome looks to be Jelco made)
Schick 9
The Wand (Plus version w/ arm lift)

[Andrei]

Besides the re-wired Jelco with upgraded collar and it's brother the Isokinetik Silver Melody, I've been looking pretty seriously at:

Ortofon AS-212S
Ortofon TA-110
SME M2-9
SME M2-9-R

I'd be able to keep using all my current cartridges with the above.

also considering:
Funk FX-3
Origin Live Illustrious MK3C
Nottingham Analogue Ace Space

also curious about:
Pro-ject Signature (lost of chrome looks to be Jelco made)
Schick 9
The Wand (Plus version w/ arm lift)

My shortlist

Whatever you go for be sure to speak to Speedy Steve about an armboard. http://fosworld.wix.com/magna-audio

[Ammonite Audio]

Besides the re-wired Jelco with upgraded collar and it's brother the Isokinetik Silver Melody, I've been looking pretty seriously at:

Ortofon AS-212S
Ortofon TA-110
SME M2-9
SME M2-9-R

I'd be able to keep using all my current cartridges with the above.

also considering:
Funk FX-3
Origin Live Illustrious MK3C
Nottingham Analogue Ace Space

also curious about:
Pro-ject Signature (lost of chrome looks to be Jelco made)
Schick 9
The Wand (Plus version w/ arm lift)

I haven't heard the Ortofon TA-110, but it does seem like a very expensive way of buying a tonearm that clearly shares all of its major structures with the Jelco SA-250!

[Ali Tait]

Have a look at the Trans Fi Terminator.

[Marco]

Besides the re-wired Jelco with upgraded collar and it's brother the Isokinetik Silver Melody, I've been looking pretty seriously at:

Ortofon AS-212S
Ortofon TA-110
SME M2-9
SME M2-9-R

I'd be able to keep using all my current cartridges with the above.

also considering:
Funk FX-3
Origin Live Illustrious MK3C
Nottingham Analogue Ace Space

also curious about:
Pro-ject Signature (lost of chrome looks to be Jelco made)
Schick 9
The Wand (Plus version w/ arm lift)

Hi Dave,

An interesting and obviously carefully considered shortlist :)

For maximum 'bang for buck', my choices would be either the SME M2-9R, which is a vastly underrated tonearm, and works superbly well on a Techy, or an Audio Origami rewired Jelco SA-750D, fitted with one of Hugo's (Ammonite Acoustics) collars. The latter would easily match an Ortofon TA-110, (as the Ortofon is made my Jelco), and the AO rewiring would put it, sonically, in contention with one, at a fraction of the price!

Or if you fancied a somewhat left-field choice, you could do worse than give this rather lovely thing a go: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?41355-Ortofon-RS212-Vintage-Tonearm&p=698958#post698958 It's a superb vintage tonearm, in very good condition, and would ideally suit a Denon DL-103 or a nice SPU, and work superbly well on a Technics :cool:

Which cartridges have you got, btw?

Marco.

[Neil McCauley]

One more to add to the shortlist perhaps?

Hello Chris and colleagues. No promises and no guarantees but I may be reviewing for Audiophile News and Music Review (formerly HiFi Answers.com; see post at my AoS trade account) one or more NEW vinyl products from Helius / Geoffrey Owen. I suspect high-end vinyl replay. Meanwhile http://www.heliusdesigns.co.uk/alexia.html (One more to add to the shortlist perhaps? Gentlemen … hello. No promises and no guarantees but I may be reviewing for Audiophile News and Music review (formerly HiFi answers.com; see post at my AoS trade account) one or more NEW vinyl products from Helius / Geoffrey Owen. I suspect high-end vinyl replay but with Geoffrey – in terms of innovation – nothing is certain other than peerless mechanical engineering . Meanwhile http://www.heliusdesigns.co.uk/alexia.html)

[dmckean]

Which cartridges have you got, btw?

Marco,

I currently have:

Kiseki Blue N.S.
Zu Denon 103R MK1
Zu Denon 103R Mk2
Zu Denon 103 Mk2
Denon 103R
Shure M3D
Shure M7D
Nagaoka MP-200

Basically all carts that work well with the Technics arm.

[dmckean]

Have a look at the Trans Fi Terminator.

I love the Terminator and plan to put one on a second deck someday when I have a more dedicated listening space. :)

[Marco]

Marco,

I currently have:

Kiseki Blue N.S.
Zu Denon 103R MK1
Zu Denon 103R Mk2
Zu Denon 103 Mk2
Denon 103R
Shure M3D
Shure M7D
Nagaoka MP-200

Basically all carts that work well with the Technics arm.

Ok, that's cool. The majority of those, especially the Denons, would work superbly with the Ortofon arm for sale, which I linked to earlier. You should seriously consider it :)

Marco.

[dmckean]

It's a beautiful old arm, but I'll leave it for someone with an appropriate vintage table. We've come a long way with bearings over the last 40 years and I bet that the Jelco out performs it.

[Marco]

For me, that would be debatable, but you're entitled to your own choice :)

Like I said, all the arms on your shortlist are worthy of consideration, but the ones liable to deliver the biggest bang for your buck, IMO, are the Jelco (suitably fettled) and the SME, although much depends on the cartridge you intend using most on your new arm.

If it's one of the Denons, then you need an arm with a high-ish effective mass, or at least one fitted with a heavy headshell.

Marco.

[dmckean]

It's really not that hard to get the Zu Denons singing because they already weigh 16.5 grams without a headshell. A properly sized counterweight is normally the issue. The Shure's are the really hard ones to deal with because they're less compliant than the Denons and really like a lot of weight. I'm not really worried about these though, I seldom listen with them anymore and I don't have a lot of money tied up in them.

I'm going to keep researching for a while. I just noticed earlier today that I could buy an RS-212D for 1999.00 euro plus 50 euro shipping which would work about to about $2300. So I guess that's on my list now too.

[Marco]

Ah, okies... If you can afford an RS-212D, then go right on ahead. I use one myself and can testify to its efficacy in conjunction with the Technics. It's a superb sounding tonearm in the highest rank, bringing the best out of almost any cartridge you can think of :)

A Speedy Steve ebony armboard, however, is near mandatory to bring the best out of it! :cool:

Marco.

[ChrisKemp]

For about half the price I can highly recommend the Isokinetik SM750 (Jelco 750D with internal silver cables and vertical heavy counter weight). Works fantastic with my DL-103R (with massed up Isokinetik brass stabiliser 8,5g) and AT440MLb:eyebrows:

[Ammonite Audio]

For about half the price I can highly recommend the Isokinetik SM750 (Jelco 750D with internal silver cables and vertical heavy counter weight). Works fantastic with my DL-103R (with massed up Isokinetik brass stabiliser 8,5g) and AT440MLb:eyebrows:

Shameless plug alert! http://ammonite-acoustics.co.uk/product/isokinetik-silver-melody-sm750-9-tonearm-improved-mounting-collar-discount-offer/