View Full Version : Am I totally imagining it?
So, this weekend I bought myself some Naim NAC A5 cable from a good bunch of blokes at Audio T in Reading and today I removed my existing cable (Cable Talk, Talk 3 Bi-Wire 1994 vintage) and swapped over to the new cable.
This is not quite all of the story. As I am shortly buying a new pair of speakers which are single wired, I also took out of the system my second Exposure power amp (see separate sale thread) and installed the flimsy Epos bi-wire connectors before plugging in the single wire Naim cable.
I was expecting to be extremely disappointed but accepted this was a short term measure until I got the new speakers…. but to my utmost surprise, the system sounded better, and this was with cable which hadn't had time to bed in… I am assuming as with all good equipment the cables also have a burn in period.
There is sooo much more detail, soundstage, depth and the bass is significantly more controlled - and yes for Dave (DSJR's) benefit the bungs are still out of the speakers, personally I have never liked the sound of the ES-14's with the bungs in, although I understand this is a big no no from Robin Marshall's perspective!.
My question is, am I going slightly mad, to coin the phrase from the Queen track of the same name, or can the speaker cable have made that much difference?
Paul.
No, bi amping speakers is not always good. It depends a lot on the speakers xovers as they are still being used in part. Also a new cable can impart a different sonic signature that can either charm or scunner as we say up here.
If your lugs like it the BINGO :)
Anthony K
29-03-2015, 23:50
A case of your ears telling you yes and your mind saying don't be stupid it's only a cable......of course it's the speaker cable
Oldpinkman
30-03-2015, 14:09
I've been ever so good, avoiding conflict, and I'm going to be ever so nice asking this question
(btw - no surprises a cable or cable arrangement makes a difference)
But cable burn in? Please! No need for real technical knowledge - let your imaginations run wild. What sort of physical changes might happen to a cable because if has an electrical signal run through it?
prestonchipfryer
30-03-2015, 15:22
What sort of physical changes might happen to a cable because if has an electrical signal run through it?
:exactly:
Anthony K
30-03-2015, 16:02
Similar changes to when you power up a cdp or Amp from cold.
The Barbarian
30-03-2015, 16:04
My amps sounds exactly the same ten mins in to ten hours. I must be well & truley def thats all i gorra say
Oldpinkman
30-03-2015, 16:52
Similar changes to when you power up a cdp or Amp from cold.
I'm sorry. I should have been clearer. What sort of permanent changes which remain after the current is no longer flowing through it - ie burn in? (not that I think there are any "warm up" changes either - if we are not talking valves, but lets not confuse the issue)
And as a supplementary - assuming some sort of real physical change does occur, which results in an audible difference, why wouldn't that be measurable?
(It's alright Marco, I'm not going to start a fight about it - more an observation than a mission)
Oldpinkman
30-03-2015, 16:55
My amps sounds exactly the same ten mins in to ten hours. I must be well & truley def thats all i gorra say
Yes - mine to. My advice when asked how long it takes for a Pip to warm up is "the time it takes you to let go of the on button". Actually, probably all my kit "sounds better" after a bit of playing time, but that has nothing to do with any changes to the noises the equipment is making, and everything to do with the state my brain (which is procsesing them) is in.
walpurgis
30-03-2015, 17:14
Different cables have a differing effect on the sound. Never heard "burn in" with cables, I don't believe it happens.
Changing sound as system warms up? Yes, definitely with my Class A SS amps, the sound changes dramatically after about 15 minutes as they get hotter. Same happens with my Class A valve monos too.
I've been ever so good, avoiding conflict, and I'm going to be ever so nice asking this question
(btw - no surprises a cable or cable arrangement makes a difference)
But cable burn in? Please! No need for real technical knowledge - let your imaginations run wild. What sort of physical changes might happen to a cable because if has an electrical signal run through it?
It's not about the wire it's about the dielectric . :)
Different cables have a differing effect on the sound. Never heard "burn in" with cables, I don't believe it happens.
Changing sound as system warms up? Yes, definitely with my Class A SS amps, the sound changes dramatically after about 15 minutes as they get hotter. Same happens with my Class A valve monos too.
The Monarchy dac sounds better once its been running for some considerable time. The firebottle takes 20/30 mins to sing
walpurgis
30-03-2015, 19:34
The Monarchy dac sounds better once its been running for some considerable time. The firebottle takes 20/30 mins to sing
Yeah, mine too.
Oldpinkman
30-03-2015, 21:19
It's not about the wire it's about the dielectric . :)
And exactly how does that permanently change as a result of a current flowing through it, and why wouldn't such a change be measurable?
Oldpinkman
30-03-2015, 21:20
The Monarchy dac sounds better once its been running for some considerable time. The firebottle takes 20/30 mins to sing
The firebottle has valves.
awkwardbydesign
30-03-2015, 22:22
My Jungson doesn't and that takes time to sound at it's best.
BTH K10A
31-03-2015, 04:49
Cables act in a similar way to tone controls.
They cannot make the electrickery any better, only alter the balance between frequencies.
Any night and day change could indicate other issues.
The only burn in to worry about happens if you have a short
The grass is always greener...........
Oldpinkman
31-03-2015, 07:11
Yeah, mine too.
I wouldn't wish to dispute that, but I don't suppose you have ever had a pair of identical Monarchy dac's which you are happy are indistinguishable when both cold and both hot, and compared a hot one with a cold one, with the aid of an assistant so you don't know whether you are listening to hot or cold. So your comment is entirely valid and fair but is a comment about your listening experience and not (necessarily) any "shareable" experience of actual audio changes produced by the DAC. Like I said - my stuff sounds better warmed up - I just assume its me that's warming up.
Gordon Steadman
31-03-2015, 07:48
We have six systems of varying quality and, apart from the Firebottle, they all sound the same from the moment they are switched on to the moment they are switched off. Perhaps French electrickery is different.
Gordon Steadman
31-03-2015, 07:49
Cables act in a similar way to tone controls.
They cannot make the electrickery any better, only alter the balance between frequencies.
Any night and day change could indicate other issues.
The only burn in to worry about happens if you have a short
The grass is always greener...........
Quite so, change doesn't equate to improvement.
I've been ever so good, avoiding conflict, and I'm going to be ever so nice asking this question
(btw - no surprises a cable or cable arrangement makes a difference)
But cable burn in? Please! No need for real technical knowledge - let your imaginations run wild. What sort of physical changes might happen to a cable because if has an electrical signal run through it?
I don't know but was making an assumption to be honest :)
My amps sounds exactly the same ten mins in to ten hours. I must be well & truley def thats all i gorra say
Lucky because mine really does change... When I first turn it on the sound is brittle almost to harsh but after some playing it improves no end :)
We have six systems of varying quality and, apart from the Firebottle, they all sound the same from the moment they are switched on to the moment they are switched off. Perhaps French electrickery is different.
:lol: you never know ;)
The grass is always greener...........
I think you may just be right :)
Just because you cant measure it with a meter doesnt mean its not a fact. but each to there own. I leave the monarchy on all the tome now as it sounds so much better that way. its agin my principles tbh but my ears rules here and it doesnt suck much juice. monarchy dont give a power switch and say not to switch off
Anthony K
31-03-2015, 10:26
[QUOTE=struth;634280]Just because you cant measure it with a meter doesnt mean its not a fact. but each to there own.
I received a Furutech Alpha 3 mains cable last Thursday , for the 1st 3 days my system sounded veiled , flat and lifeless like all the emotion of the music had been drained. Today however it sounds clear as a bell.
Yes I believe in cable burn in - No I cannot measure it, I also cannot measure time , but believe it exists
awkwardbydesign
31-03-2015, 11:38
I was given some Van Damme 6mm Blue and 6mm HiFi speaker cable. I used the Blue for a while, which was OK-ish and then swapped to the HiFi. Aargh! Harsh and horrid. After about an hour it had changed and sounded much better. When I swapped back, the Blue now sounded poorer than the HiFi. So unless the Blue lost something while it was out, then the HiFi had changed. And if the Blue deteriorated, then we have the same effect, just in reverse!
Same plugs on both cables, BTW. I don't use either now, TQ Ultra Blue sounds better than either. In MY system.
Gordon Steadman
31-03-2015, 12:21
I was given some Van Damme 6mm Blue and 6mm HiFi speaker cable. I used the Blue for a while, which was OK-ish and then swapped to the HiFi. Aargh! Harsh and horrid. After about an hour it had changed and sounded much better. When I swapped back, the Blue now sounded poorer than the HiFi. So unless the Blue lost something while it was out, then the HiFi had changed. And if the Blue deteriorated, then we have the same effect, just in reverse!
Same plugs on both cables, BTW. I don't use either now, TQ Ultra Blue sounds better than either. In MY system.
Maybe the air density changed with the weather. Did you note the prevailing conditions??:)
walpurgis
31-03-2015, 14:27
Any perceived changes in the sound of cables is just your ears and brain adjusting to the balance.
awkwardbydesign
31-03-2015, 15:29
Maybe the air density changed with the weather. Did you note the prevailing conditions??:)
Prevailing denial. :rolleyes:
awkwardbydesign
31-03-2015, 15:30
Any perceived changes in the sound of cables is just your ears and brain adjusting to the balance.
Did you actually read what I posted? :doh:
Gordon Steadman
31-03-2015, 15:30
Prevailing denial. :rolleyes:
Nah, don't do denial.............just educated doubt:lol:
walpurgis
31-03-2015, 15:54
Did you actually read what I posted? :doh:
Yes. Why?
BTH K10A
31-03-2015, 19:08
I was given some Van Damme 6mm Blue and 6mm HiFi speaker cable. I used the Blue for a while, which was OK-ish and then swapped to the HiFi. Aargh! Harsh and horrid. After about an hour it had changed and sounded much better. When I swapped back, the Blue now sounded poorer than the HiFi. So unless the Blue lost something while it was out, then the HiFi had changed. And if the Blue deteriorated, then we have the same effect, just in reverse!
Same plugs on both cables, BTW. I don't use either now, TQ Ultra Blue sounds better than either. In MY system.
Sounds like every time you switch off your hifi to change cables it takes about 30 mins for the powered bits to settle in again. ;)
awkwardbydesign
31-03-2015, 19:16
Sounds like every time you switch off your hifi to change cables it takes about 30 mins for the powered bits to settle in again. ;)
If I switched off!
awkwardbydesign
31-03-2015, 19:20
Yes. Why?
When I swapped back,
This!
BTH K10A
31-03-2015, 19:22
If I switched off!
So first your amplifier sees a load, then it doesn't and then it does again. :idea:
walpurgis
31-03-2015, 19:24
This!
I'm still none the wiser.
I suspect you may have misunderstood me. I wasn't commenting on your post. I was just expressing my opinion on cables in general.
This!
Think you are both agreeing with each other tbh....in your own ways. IE Geoff and Richard.
awkwardbydesign
31-03-2015, 21:57
So first your amplifier sees a load, then it doesn't and then it does again. :idea:
It's a modern(ish) transistor amp. It doesn't care, as long as it's not short circuited.
awkwardbydesign
31-03-2015, 22:00
Think you are both agreeing with each other tbh....in your own ways. IE Geoff and Richard.
"Any perceived changes in the sound of cables is just your ears and brain adjusting to the balance."
Hardly.
icehockeyboy
31-03-2015, 22:01
Op
I was given some Van Damme 6mm Blue and 6mm HiFi speaker cable. I used the Blue for a while, which was OK-ish and then swapped to the HiFi. Aargh! Harsh and horrid. After about an hour it had changed and sounded much better. When I swapped back, the Blue now sounded poorer than the HiFi. So unless the Blue lost something while it was out, then the HiFi had changed. And if the Blue deteriorated, then we have the same effect, just in reverse!
Same plugs on both cables, BTW. I don't use either now, TQ Ultra Blue sounds better than either. In MY system.
My story goes.....had TQ Black, great.
Tried TQ Blue, having had it before I had the Black, didn't sound anywhere near as good as I remembered.
Replaced the Black with VD Blue 6mm, buggered if I heard much if any downward trend in SQ from the Black.
Go figure.
Just goes to show, one mans meat etc...
awkwardbydesign
31-03-2015, 22:03
I'm still none the wiser.
I suspect you may have misunderstood me. I wasn't commenting on your post. I was just expressing my opinion on cables in general.
"Any perceived changes in the sound of cables is just your ears and brain adjusting to the balance."
If that's what you meant, you should phrase it differently. It looks exactly like a comment on my post.
walpurgis
31-03-2015, 22:25
Hmm :hmm:. I was generalising Richard. When I said 'your ears', I meant anybody's ears.
Oldpinkman
01-04-2015, 05:17
Hmm :hmm:. I was generalising Richard. When I said 'your ears', I meant anybody's ears.
This is one of the advantages the French have, and causes sue the biggest problems. In French that would have been "ones ears" quite naturally. In English we use "you" to mean "one" and generally have no problem distinguishing them - until trying to speak French, when most English speakers fail to pick the correct pronoun.
awkwardbydesign
01-04-2015, 09:04
I still use "one's". Especially just after someone else's post!
awkwardbydesign
01-04-2015, 09:13
Op
My story goes.....had TQ Black, great.
Tried TQ Blue, having had it before I had the Black, didn't sound anywhere near as good as I remembered.
Replaced the Black with VD Blue 6mm, buggered if I heard much if any downward trend in SQ from the Black.
Go figure.
Just goes to show, one mans meat etc...
I didn't like the TQ Blue, or the Black, but the Ultra Blue gets closer to the Ultra Black, which I couldn't afford! I have some old Vecteur linear crystal solid core star quad cable which sounds beautifully coherent, just rolled off at the top. About 25 years old now. I will try it for the crossover wiring, as the external crossover means I have nearly a metre of wiring to each driver! At the moment I am trying to decide which resistors to use; Jantzen MOX emphasised sibilance, but Mills wirewounds didn't; unfortunately I will need 8 at over £4 each!
But how about the times, you know them when you listen to your system and it sounds boring and lifeless, let's for convenience it's a 11am and then you listen again at 7pm and it sounds engaging and so much easier on the ears, how does that happen?
I can only assume it is just coincidence but it happens so often... And in relation to cables I believe there is a burn in period, maybe it's something along the lines of the equipment getting used to the cable or vice versa.0, but there's something there.
Anthony K
02-04-2015, 12:36
in relation to cables I believe there is a burn in period, maybe it's something along the lines of the equipment getting used to the cable or vice versa.0, but there's something there.
:exactly:
awkwardbydesign
02-04-2015, 14:43
But how about the times, you know them when you listen to your system and it sounds boring and lifeless, let's for convenience it's a 11am and then you listen again at 7pm and it sounds engaging and so much easier on the ears, how does that happen?
I can only assume it is just coincidence but it happens so often... And in relation to cables I believe there is a burn in period, maybe it's something along the lines of the equipment getting used to the cable or vice versa.0, but there's something there.
There are definitely times when my response will be different even though nothing else has changed. That's normal, I think. But when 2 cables (or anything else) are compared with each other, and then compared again after "burn-in", and the results are MARKEDLY different, dismissing them as imaginary is disingenuous at the very least.
There are definitely times when my response will be different even though nothing else has changed. That's normal, I think. But when 2 cables (or anything else) are compared with each other, and then compared again after "burn-in", and the results are MARKEDLY different, dismissing them as imaginary is disingenuous at the very least.
Totally agree with you :)
Paul, I can't remember if I ever told you, but I remember converting my ES14's to Bi-Wiring (Robin gave me the sockets) and couldn't hear any difference, which he thought was quite a reasonable conclusion in this design! The biggest change for me was going from Linn K20 to A5 (when it was a perfectly reasonable £5 per metre [what the fugg are Naim playing at, charging £25 per metre when it costs them tuppence, relatively speaking?), which the system liked.
Cable Talk 3 was a BICC made, good quality general purpose speaker wire and the current Talk 3 is similar copper, but with a better? insulation, made into a closely spaced and jacketed cable. CT 3 and 3.1 could sound a bit ragged as the system improves though and this is where Talk 4, 4.1 and the fig-8 Excel4 came along, E4 being closest to the current Talk 3 (all except Excel 4 designed/specified by Kevin Edwards) I believe.
Back to the Naim A5. It does sparkle up top and I agree the bass and mid is very good, the sonic 'formula' sounding swell with older valve amps too (my Crofted Quads sounded amazing with this cable into ES14's I remember. Since you didn't mind paying the price for it, enjoy it and forget the rest...
See below in my old dem room - I guarantee that ES14's were at the other end :) -
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/TheQuads.jpg (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/DSJR_photos/media/TheQuads.jpg.html)
By the way, I don't know if the shop you bought the cable from has changed management, but my own experiences of the place were rather opposite to yours - opinionated management, condescending yet rather ignorant too where the big wide world of high quality music reproduction is concerned...
By the way, I don't know if the shop you bought the cable from has changed management, but my own experiences of the place were rather opposite to yours - opinionated management, condescending yet rather ignorant too where the big wide world of high quality music reproduction is concerned...
They were certainly opinionated and now in hindsight they were a little pushy towards the speakers they favoured as opposed to the ones I have now bought to replace the ES-14s.
Paul.
... And in relation to cables I believe there is a burn in period, maybe it's something along the lines of the equipment getting used to the cable or vice versa.0, but there's something there.
A someone who has done a lot of experimenting with interconnect cables I have to agree. . Never had it with speaker cables but not messed about with them much.
A someone who has done a lot of experimenting with interconnect cables I have to agree. . Never had it with speaker cables but not messed about with them much.
Entirely agree, I find differences in interconnect cables can be vast irrespective of price and always require a level of burn in.
walpurgis
05-04-2015, 18:54
Entirely agree, I find differences in interconnect cables can be vast irrespective of price and always require a level of burn in.
I've never heard any change myself.
I've never heard any change myself.
Pardon, ay??? Sorry my failing attempt at a joke... I guess it's each to there own, like many other things. Paul.
Spectral Morn
07-04-2015, 10:18
With some types of cables it is possible, very carefully to do comparisons with items still left on, switch inputs to another, turn volume down, switch to standby, make sure the source isn't playing etc. With speaker cables one needs to be more careful and mains cables require items to be switched off - hate doing mains related reviews.
I think its down to methodology, listening to the same pieces of music, making extensive notes, looking to the same aspects of a piece of music each time, cymbal strikes, shimmer, decay, backing vocals, ambience, accoustic, space round instruments, bass depth, tightness etc and then expand outwards to cover other aspects of the whole recording.
If a cable needs run in listen when new, then listen again at various stages of use, but make notes, copious notes. I would say also listen at the same times of the day and again the same pieces of music, maybe a maximum of three, of differrent types.
If you feel the need to switch gear off, then listen after the equipment has been back on for thirty minutes or more but be consistent each time, but again take notes.
Sometimes having a friend do the swapping around works well, leaving you to focus on the listening.
I think a little preparation, consistency of approach and time taken will yield results.
I hear differnces and always have.
Regards Neil
The one make of interconnect cable that - for me - always needs to settle down after making is the Klotz AC110 and MC5000. I have no idea why, but my derided (by some) comments on a 'plump' quality do seem to be there at first, but using an established, well used alternative as a reference, did show me that this 'effect' seems to fade after a while - for me at any rate - and the cable then performs superbly.
As for amp warm-up. It's easily measurable and has been for decades I remember. Many modern designs (and some older ones) with closer tolerance components do seem to stabilise almost immediately with no temperament though in my experience.
Our ears, resulting mood and the listening 'atmosphere' (air temperature, humidity and pressure) do play a huge part though and it's these aspects that can seem to change the sound too I think - and we haven't discussed mains quality changing yet ;)
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