Mega SUT shoot-out - seven (and a half) SUTs on trial!! - a brief review

[montesquieu]

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x440/montesquieu61/SUTS_zpsnzidovfc.jpg (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/montesquieu61/media/SUTS_zpsnzidovfc.jpg.html)

Fascinating visit from the eponymous 'Mike Adams' today all the way from Devon - he brought with him four SUTs to add to my current collection of three (plus the MC input to the Aurorasound Vida) making seven and a half MC options in total!

My current collection


Hashimoto HM7 (acquired in japan in November and built up by Ampregen/Valvebloke) 1:30 and 1:15 options
Sevens and Billington TX103 step-up (built up by Ampregen/Valvebloke) 1:20/1:10/1:7.5/1:5, with open + 3 resistor loading options at each ratio)
Auditorium A23 for Ortofon - 1:30 step-up no options


Plus Mike brought:


Miyajima KSW - 1:29 designed for Miyjima Shilabe (which is my current stereo cartridge)
Art Audio SUTs - not quite sure what the ratio here is but they seemed in the 1:30 sort of are in terms of comparative volume
Altec 4722 (belonging to Guy Sergeant and borrowed by Mike) seemingly fairly high gain I would say around the 1:30 mark
Sowter 1:10 boxed


It should be noted that the cartridges in use were my Miyajima Shilabe (0.23mV/16 ohm) and Miyjima Zero (0.4mv/6 ohm) - also briefly my Miyajima Premium 78 (0.7mV/ 6 ohm) so any conclusions here are probably not universal in application as while the Zero is pretty close to the 3-4 ohm of a typical Ortofon, the Shilabe is a bit of a strange one when it comes to matching.

Some of this was just for fun really as the Sowters and Altecs while both pretty musical had their limitations in terms of detail and nuance - the Altecs proving better in terms of scale, but there were whole chunks of information missing with the Shilabe at least.

What surprised me most was the Hashimoto HM7s. I'd head these before in a Choir Audio incarnation and was blown away - indeed it was hearing the Choir Audio with a Miyajima Waza nearly 2 years ago now that set me on my current path that involved selling up my Audio Note Io2 and Kondo-era AN S6c SUT in pursuit of something potentially more musically engaging (I had always had a love-hate thing with the Io .. flawless as it is, it just never quite sucked me in as much as, say, a vintage SPU). Anyway, I had been a little underwhelmed after the buid was complete and I loaned this to Mike soon after. But it seems that a couple on months of run-in has transformed the Hashimotos and to my mind (in stereo at least) it stood head and shoulders above everything else here - all at once (hugely) more dynamic, more detailed, more energised, and more musical. Just like I'd head them before.

The TX103 is a swiss army knife of phono stages and is typically very musical and sweet .. it had plenty of oomph but didn't quite catch the magic of the Shilabe in the same way as he HM7 ... I suspect the limitation here is the 1:20 ratio at 120 ohm. It sounded better at 1:10/83 ohm (and the preamp cranked up a bit) but never quite caught up with the HM7 - the opposite of what was the case before I loaned the HM7 to Mike, when the TX103 seemed the better option. A really surprising turnaround as I'm not a great believer in stuff like burn-in.

The Miyajima KSW and A23 sounded quite similar to me - both softer and less dynamic than either the Hashimoto or the TX103, but both having a musical charm about them and a way with space and detail ... hapilly live with either + Shilabe. Better with classical and jazz than with harder-edged rock or electronica, nevertheless the Hashimoto revealed more micro-dynamics than either.

The Art Audios trailed a bit here - while quite musical and fun, there was something of a thin vocal rendition, recessed midrange and obscuring of detail, and I don't think they quite pulled off the trick here. But I suspect they may be suited better to higher gain, lower impedance cartridges - SUTs are always horses for courses (I suspect the Altecs are in the same category). The Shilabe is a queer fish for matching and these results can't be universalised.

All of this was into the MM input of the Vida. The MC input is actually not bad, but I found it was easily bettered by just about any of these SUTs into the MM input.

Switching to the mono Zero (which is more typical in terms of impedance characteristics) the differences between the SUTs actually reduced dramatically. The clear winner in terms of detail and dynamics (as well as front to back soundstage) was still the HM7 (in my eyes) but there was huge charm from both the KSW and A23, while the TX103 also came into its own. In fact, at the higher end, the matching here was less about 'correctness' and more about preference, about chosing the right 'tone control' to match musical preference. There wasn't a huge amount to choose from here in terms of tone, back to front staging, or detail delivery.

In some ways the conclusions are easy to draw - the HM7 is state of the art (possibly better than my old Kondo SUT), but the KSW, A23 and TX103 all have their charms. On the other hand - we were really spoilt for choice. You won't land a pair of HM7s in the UK for much less than £900 (before any effort to case them up), or a buit-up Choir Audio for less than £1400 after import duty. The TX103 is only available now built up in a fancy case from MFA for £1800. The KSW retails for around the same, the A23 for around £1100. Not cheap options, any of them.

Anyway a really fun afternoon and great to catch up with Mike again!

[User211]

Interesting. I very, very nearly ordered a Choir Audio a while back - a couple of years ago maybe? Import tax put me off and he will only ship at full value.

Burn in on wire does seem a little surprising though:D

[paskinn]

Well, yes, burn-in of wire does seem an odd concept...what possible mechanism could be at play? I've always suspected that 'burn-in' might be another term for getting used to a new sound. In the same way, I often return to a bit of kit after a while, and get a quite different reaction. Human beings are not machines, moods and judgements change all the time.
Having said that, Jonathon Billington at MFA insists in running-in his tvcs and step-ups for at least 24 hours, and he is no fool. Puzzling stuff. I love the MFA step ups, and agree that using one into the Vida gives a big improvement. But then, I tend to prefer SUTs....
One other thought; Lundahl have a big range of step-ups at different prices. Very posh manufacturers such as Thrax, use them. Although the MFA sounded rather superior to the step up in the Thrax, and that's a £13000 phonostage.

[Mike Adams]

An interesting afternoon as ever.

The results were similar to what I had achieved but with some subtle differences. (perhaps not surprising given the similarities in our systems)

My comments would be as follows:
HM7s initially these seemed a little grainy but over the time that I have had them it seemed to have disappeared. These were the most dynamic, and revealing, no obvious tonal tilt or deficiencies. Weirdly I preferred them on the high ratio 1:30 setting with all the MCs Ive tried? A good balance of hifi-musicality.

TX103 had a similar tonal balance to the HM7s but lost out in dynamics, size of soundstage etc.

Art Audio Score Ive had these for a while and found them a upgrade on the inbuilt Tx in my Art Audio V1 (so much so that when I had it upgraded to the reference model I had Tom remove them) In my system they sound great and only lose out to the HM7s in the fullness of their midrange however they didn’t suit Tom’s Shilabe and they sounded like the mid range was missing leaving a (in Tom’s words) deconstructed feel to the sound. (I think the loading was miles out as I think they are 1:10ish?)

Sowter 1:10 (Guy’s)
I had found these initially not great in my system, I felt that they were much better in Tom’s, they are more balanced and musically very enjoyable to listen to but the tonal balance seems tilted downwards to me, and the top end lacks a little sparkle. (Could be the loading)

KSW was perhaps the most interesting/odd. I had found it very soft with my stereo cartridges and better suited to the Zero. The results with Toms Shilabe were similar. It isn’t as dynamic as the HM7s, and sounded smaller, however there were a couple of things that I did really like about it. It seemed to emphasise the midrange slightly which seemed to move them forward in the recording. It also seemed to allow you to hear the subtleties of tone, in particular with some classical lieder we were listening to I found myself preferring it. With the Zero I felt it suited the type (and time?) of recording.

Altec 4722 (Guy’s) had a similar sound to the KSW but was more rolled off and lost some the HF information. Where I have tried with the Zero I found the KSW sounding tonally richer as well as having better extension. (Ive also had some Pritecs on loan which are similar if different.)

A23 I didn’t like with the Shilabe it seemed very dark sounding and lacking extension. It was better with classical but probably as it didn’t have much HF information to process. With the Zero the darker sound suited the program material better and I liked it much more…

I do wonder if the grain/coarseness with the HM7 was down to the number of switches and options Tom has had fitted, and all those joints ‘wearing in’? Seemingly getting better with use this was the sure winner with the Shilabe.

With the Zero however I preferred my KSW, the slightly vintage sound it has seems to suite the mono material. Typical as this is pretty much the most expensive option! I suspect the system Mr Miyajima has (with WE type horns) doesn’t need any help dynamically and hence the slightly vintage softer sound suits his system…

I have to say that the VIDA Tom has also sounded great and if it wasn’t that Im very happy (I am very happy I am am very happy I am very happy) with my Vinyl One, would be on my list.

I think it is also worth pointing out that every one of these Tx had a slightly different tonal balance and that they are therefore probably very much system and cartridge dependent. Also the better ones were all an improvement on the inbuilt SUT in the VIDA.

Thanks as ever Tom (and Guy!)

[paskinn]

An interesting afternoon as ever.



I think it is also worth pointing out that every one of these Tx had a slightly different tonal balance and that they are therefore probably very much system and cartridge dependent. Also the better ones were all an improvement on the inbuilt SUT in the VIDA.



And there's the nub of the problem. Taken out of a specific context (system) any results are unreliable. You just can't generalise about what is 'best'. Even with the context of the same system, people can reach quite different conclusions. Which is why hi fi recommendations need to be treated with great caution. They are too personal, simply matters of individual taste.
BTW: having owned both the Vinyl One and Vida, I think I can say with fair confidence that they don't sound all that similar. In fact, phonostages in general sound more different than you might expect. Presumably they shouldn't, but they do.

[awkwardbydesign]

Fascinating. I have different MCs (SPU and OC9 Mk1) and different SUTs (EMT STX20 and SPU SUT), but always like to hear about others. Mind you, I am using the Decca at the mo, so don't need to use them! When the GL75 has been pimped, I will put 2 arms on it and have a play.

[walpurgis]

I have a pair of the Art Audio SUTs. They're decent enough sounding in my system, but not the best I've heard. My modest Fidelity Research FRT-3 sounded more vibrant and possibly more open, and the elusive Osawa OS-100T even better. This is with a variety of decent MCs. The Osawa really sounded superb with a Technics EPC-305MC. The Art Audio SUTs are currently working with a ZYX R100 Yatra and sounding pretty nice.

[Mike Adams]

Well even in different systems the basic qualities of the SUTs were evident though I do agree that ones personal preference both with material and sound will obviously come into play when talking about better and best...

The point I was making was that it would be possible to tilt the tonal balance of a system through the use of a a SUT with a particular characteristic.

Id agree that the Vinyl one and VIDA don't sound that similar, it would make an interesting comparison, but TBH Im happy with the Vinyl One...

[anubisgrau]

if you run a 16ohm cart into A23 built for SPU, you've most likely had an impedance mismatch as that SUT really works optimal only with a 2-5 ohm cartridge. not that i'm crazy about auditorium SUT (apart from being a no-nonsense solution for SPU), it's just worth a mention. also, do you know what sowther you had there? 6xxx are a bit mediocre but 9990x can sound very competent if it's matched well with a cartridge.

anyway thanks for sharing this with us. it's my by far the most favorite bake off and the differences between SUTs are actually much bigger than you can imagine. sometimes it's quite shocking what improvement a proper matching can do.

[walpurgis]

Mind you, I am using the Decca at the mo, so don't need to use them!.

I have to admit, I'm rather fond of Deccas too. Not got one at the moment, but if a nice 4RC or C4E came along, who knows.

[montesquieu]

And there's the nub of the problem. Taken out of a specific context (system) any results are unreliable. You just can't generalise about what is 'best'. Even with the context of the same system, people can reach quite different conclusions. Which is why hi fi recommendations need to be treated with great caution. They are too personal, simply matters of individual taste.
BTW: having owned both the Vinyl One and Vida, I think I can say with fair confidence that they don't sound all that similar. In fact, phonostages in general sound more different than you might expect. Presumably they shouldn't, but they do.

Well I think both of us did try to caveat things - the Shilabe is a funny one to match in particular. But doesn't mean comments are worthless, so long as people take the specifics into account.

Incidentally I've also owned a Vinyl One and totally agree it's very different to the Vida. Nice phono stage though.



if you run a 16ohm cart into A23 built for SPU, you've most likely had an impedance mismatch as that SUT really works optimal only with a 2-5 ohm cartridge. not that i'm crazy about auditorium SUT (apart from being a no-nonsense solution for SPU), it's just worth a mention. also, do you know what sowther you had there? 6xxx are a bit mediocre but 9990x can sound very competent if it's matched well with a cartridge.

anyway thanks for sharing this with us. it's my by far the most favorite bake off and the differences between SUTs are actually much bigger than you can imagine. sometimes it's quite shocking what improvement a proper matching can do.

Certainly explains the A23's slightly shut-in feel with the Shilabe and its coming to life with the Zero ...

Agreed on the fun aspect this was a pretty cool bakeoff to do :)

[petrat]

Different time, different ears, but might be of interest to readers of this thread ...

I did a similar comparison a couple of years back using some low DC resistance carts (Transfiguration Spirit, SPU, Koetsu Black Goldline) .... and found that the SUTs I tried mostly sort of fell into two 'camps': those that were detailed / 'hi-fi', majoring on information retrieval (neutral?); and those that were somehow more 'musical' and dynamic, but losing a bit of the detail. Usually caveats apply, but the findings were consistent across all those low resistance cartridges.

Ortofon ST80 SE - very detailed and somewhat 'etched'. Best with the SPU, where it sort of compensated/complemented.
EAR MC4 - lovely detail, very neutral, but missed out on dynamics a bit. Excellent all-rounder.
RFC MC1 - this was X10 gain and was best suited to an AT33, where it was an excellent combination.

Auditorium 23 - used with a Denon103, this was fun and musical, lacking ultimate detail, but I was too busy dancing to notice :)
Audio Note S2L - once in the system, it rarely left it. Addictively musical, with real 'weight' and presence. Only niggle was that to get the detail it was missing/losing meant a big outlay moving up the range.

And I finally found one that would do both ... Hashimoto HM3. Since I plugged it in, I've never had any 'niggles' or thoughts of upgrading ... 'tis very good and just 'right' to my ears.

One thing I did find out was that using loading resistors can further improve a SUT, and that it is well worth becoming familiar with the calculations regarding matching/loading and experimenting a bit. I could detect no loss of quality when using good resistors BTW.

[Moko]

Any chance of a rematch using an SPU:)?

I currently use a pair of Altec 4722's with a Classic GM II SPU and a very nice combination it makes too, but I will let you know if it's beaten with a set of Hasimoto HM-3's that I have just bought.

But it would be great to hear your opinions on the SPU with such a range of SUT's

[Beavis]

Yes, I'd like to read opinions regarding the Hashimotos teamed with an Ortofon SPU GM and/or GME as I have both cartridges.

[montesquieu]

Any chance of a rematch using an SPU:)?

I currently use a pair of Altec 4722's with a Classic GM II SPU and a very nice combination it makes too, but I will let you know if it's beaten with a set of Hasimoto HM-3's that I have just bought.

But it would be great to hear your opinions on the SPU with such a range of SUT's


No probs if you want to bring the SPU round (I'm a few min off J4 M3) ... I have the HM7s here and the A23 Ortofon, plus the S&Bs (which I thought were very good with the SPUs I had) till after the Easter Weekend, before it makes it way to Russia! That plus the Altec and HM3s could be a reasonable test.

[Valvebloke]

Well, yes, burn-in of wire does seem an odd concept...what possible mechanism could be at play? ...

A good question. I should start by saying that I am absolutely NOT a transformer expert, so what follows is just me 'wandering around' an area I'm largely unfamiliar with. But when it comes to transformers in general, particularly those that have to handle significant powers and/or high frequencies, I'm aware that they can exhibit non-ideal behaviour not due to the wire but due to the properties (saturation, hysteresis etc) of the core material. Every so often I'm reminded that under some circumstances cores can become permanently magnetised, for example, and that this can lead to an asymmetric response as the signal oscillates about an offset point on the B-H curve. One of these days I'll check to see if I can see any effect of that in a push-pull output transformer which might have had one valve fail, thereby exposing it to a substantial DC field from the other valve. Getting back to SUT burn-in, I have no idea if the mechanism of forming new core material might leave it in a partially magnetised state, or if the field levels in an SUT core would get anywhere near big enough to relax that magnetisation (even slowly, over time). If this was an issue then I'd expect that the transformer winders would try to wipe any magnetisation before putting their product onto the market. But might there be a process of recovery, similar to the dielectric recovery which can recharge capacitors so annoyingly ? Is it even possible that physical effects such as mechanical shock or thermal changes could induce any magnetism ? If there's anyone here who is expert in the ins and outs of this then I'd be very interested to hear.

VB

[pure sound]

Did I set the Altec 4722's at 150 Ohms Mike? Certainly with many MC's I'd expect the 38 Ohm setting to be preferable but perhaps not with those Miyajimas expecting to see the 60 Ohms or so presented by Miyajima's own SUT.

BTW, The Sowters were their bottom of the range item so do surprisingly well given their modest cost. I bought the Altecs, some UTC A-12's and a couple of other vintage studio Mic transformers all at one time to ensure that the T10 transformers I do had performance at the right sort of level.

I'd expect the HM-7 to be a class above given the price as were the Koetsu ones I tried (not sure who makes those for them)

[anubisgrau]

Did you try UTCs? We had UTCs here on our SPU SUT shootout and they were very interesting. It seems like a rule with the vintage SUTs that they excel on tone and natural sound, while losing on resolution and detail. Still I found them superior in my system to Lundahl LL1943 (Thomas Mayer uses in his RIAA preamps)

[montesquieu]

Did I set the Altec 4722's at 150 Ohms Mike? Certainly with many MC's I'd expect the 38 Ohm setting to be preferable but perhaps not with those Miyajimas expecting to see the 60 Ohms or so presented by Miyajima's own SUT.

BTW, The Sowters were their bottom of the range item so do surprisingly well given their modest cost. I bought the Altecs, some UTC A-12's and a couple of other vintage studio Mic transformers all at one time to ensure that the T10 transformers I do had performance at the right sort of level.

I'd expect the HM-7 to be a class above given the price as were the Koetsu ones I tried (not sure who makes those for them)


That was my concern on the Altecs ... when I borrowed them years ago (for Koetsu I think at the time) they were spot on for a IIRC 3 ohm cartridge, I suspected they weren't quite right for the oddball Shilabe as I really liked them back then. Same issue I guess as with the A23 + Shilabe.

[anubisgrau]

it's very possible that you're loading A23 with higher impedance shilabe than its primaries.

[pure sound]

I've got some UTC A-12's (which I think Tom borrowed at one point). They can be nice with the right cartridge and have a good number of options so can be configured for different impedances/ratios.

[montesquieu]

I've got some UTC A-12's (which I think Tom borrowed at one point). They can be nice with the right cartridge and have a good number of options so can be configured for different impedances/ratios.

Yes I remember these very fondly I but very hard to source these days (even harder than the Altecs I think).

[Moko]

With my Altec 4722 's with GM SPU or DL103 switching between the various ratios does not seem to make a huge difference in the sound produced, the changes only seem to be very slight certainly not night & day differences

[anubisgrau]

Yes I remember these very fondly I but very hard to source these days (even harder than the Altecs I think).

The UTC SUT I liked a lot was A-10 with SPU Spirit. Lots of similarities with Ortofon JS-6600, just much cheaper. And not that difficult to find, bare txs are around $200-250 tops.

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?110238-Interesting-SUT-for-SPU-shootout&highlight=UTC
(not sure if this is allowed, pls feel free to delete the link if not)

[Mike Adams]

Sorry a bit of a delay in replying to this...

Guy you are correct, the vintage SUTs were set up for the Zero not the Shilabe...I think the choice was to show the cartridge 38 or 150 Ohms -which we though 150 would be better and then loaded across the secondary to show 100 Ohms to the cartridge.

The Miyajma cartridges seem fairly flexible with their loading, and the basic character of the SUTs has seemed the same regardless to their loading options.

As already mentioned the SUTs seemed to split into two camps, one that excelled on tone, and delicacy but lost out in dynamics, scale etc. I found the 4722 nice but the KSW is definitely better (as it should be for the price) and of the same camp.

Id like to hear the bigger brother to the 4722 the 4665, and from what Ive read they were the no holds barred version...