French Plane Crash - A Deliberate Act

[RobbieGong]

The French prosecutor, leading the investigation has concluded that the plane was deliberately crashed which is pretty disturbing.

Here are the main points of the press conference held by the Marseille public prosecutor, Brice Robin. (As appears online - theguardian)

The co-pilot of the Germanwings jet that crashed in the French Alps deliberately forced the plane into the descent that led to the disaster, the prosecutor said. He pressed a button that accelerated the Airbus A320’s descent when alone in the cockpit. “It was a voluntary action,” Robin said.

The co-pilot - named by the prosecutor as Andreas Lubitz, 28, a German citizen, was alone because the pilot had gone to the toilet. When he returned, the co-pilot refused to open the door. “The intention was to destroy this plane,” he said.

Lubitz was breathing normally at the point of impact, the prosecutor reveals. He said nothing during the final descent, which lasted about 10 minutes. “Absolute silence inside the cockpit. Nothing, no word during the last 10 minutes.”

There was no indication that Lubitz’s actions amounted to terrorism, Robin said. But he stopped short of declaring it suicide, saying only that was a “legitimate” question to ask.

Cries could be heard just before the impact, the prosecutor said. “The death would have been sudden, immediate.”

Air traffic controllers attempted to contract the plane in the last few minutes before the crash but received no reply from the cockpit.

:(

[r100]

Just read it as well... that is really frightening and shocking that one of the pilots should have done that .. my thoughts go out to the families and victims.

[Spectral Morn]

There is more to this, than a simple suicide, has to be. Shocked, can't begin to imagine the horror of those in that plane. I see scenes from Paul Greengrass United 93 :(

I thought maybe he had had a massive heart attack.

Words seem inadequate to express my condolences to all involved.



Regards Neil

[Firebottle]

Being an aviator myself there are many unanswered questions.
The quoted descent rate is quite a normal figure for descent in a 'heavy' so does appear to have been a consciously chosen event.

If there had been a sudden decompression then a steeper descent would have been initiated, to get down to 10000 feet rapidly.
It does give credence to the suicide rumour that no communication was made to ATC :scratch:

EDIT: Another thought knowing a bit of the French prosecutors approach, they do like to pinpoint blame even if all the facts aren't known yet, so no surprise at present.

Alan

[Haselsh1]

I have just read this on the BBC site and I don't mind saying, it really upset me.

[walpurgis]

I had wondered if something of this sort had occurred.

I said to a friend yesterday that the plane had to have been travelling at a high speed, possibly between four and five hundred miles an hour for that level of fragmentation to occur and that I believed the plane to have been intact until impact as there were apparently no extraneous debris sites.

There's a well known film of an F4 Phantom being propelled into a concrete block at high speed and the total disintegration is similar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZjhxuhTmGk

The only mercy, is that the destruction would have been so instant and catastrophic that none on board would have had time to experience pain. No doubt there are no bodies, just human fragments.

To descend from appoximately eight miles altitude to the height of the crash, I'd quess would average a descent rate (not flying speed) of around 100mph. Presumably the loony at the controls had whacked the throttles on max and flown the thing straight in at a steep downward angle.

Glad I don't fly anywhere.

[struth]

Some planes have an armed guard on the plane. i am of the opinion that this should be mandarory. he could have forced the door with the gun...risky but not as bad as just waiting to die.
Oddly I was talking to my brother yesterday about it and this was the conclusion i came to....its a really shitty thing to do if you want to top yourself...taking hundreds with you ...kids as well

[walpurgis]

OK, unless the armed guard turns out to be the loony!

[fitmartin]

The only blessing is that at that speed of impact, the lives were extinguished without pain, lights out so to speak. So sad for the loved ones left behind, deepest sympathies!

[struth]

OK, unless the armed guard turns out to be the loony!

actually i think there are 2 of them. well on el al flights. they are anonomous and mingle as passengers

[The Barbarian]

That crash test British Rail did that time clearly shows how well built those BR Type 4 locomotives were

[Anthony K]

speechless...

[Audio Advent]

There is more to this, than a simple suicide, has to be. Shocked, can't begin to imagine the horror of those in that plane. I see scenes from Paul Greengrass United 93 :(

I thought maybe he had had a massive heart attack.

Words seem inadequate to express my condolences to all involved.



Regards Neil

I don't see why there has to be anything more to this. I don't understand suicide but still can believe people will do it. Can't understand the desire to teach the world a lesson or cause pain to others out of some sort of revenge etc but can still believe people will do it. Seems irrational but in the minds of anyone doing these things it is always fully rational at that moment.

Interesting how, because he is white German, there is no question in the media that this could have been a terrorist attack. Make him a Muslim convert, or any shade of brown then I'm absolutely certain that suggestions of terrorism links or anti-west ideology would be banded about and his background publically scrutinised for such links. Even Anders Breivik was discounted as a terrorist by the US recently, talking about there not having been any terrorist attacks in Europe for so many years or something, suddenly he's a loan actor despite his desire to cause terror and panic out of ideology.

[Oldpinkman]

Problem is eliminating the vagaries of human behaviour completely. The high security doors, with the ability to lock them from the cockpit are a post- 9/11 modification, required by US federal law, and almost universally adopted by international carriers. They were designed to enable the flight crew to be protected from any attack by hijackers. This is not the first time a flight crew member has been suspected of deliberately crashing an aircraft (EgyptAir flight 990., Silk Air Flight 185 among others). It is suspected as the most likely reason for the Korean airline missing jumbo as well (and of course that pilot turned off his transponder - the proposal now being that planes be fitted with a GPS transmitter to log their position every minute which cannot be turned off by the crew, and which therefore would mean the plane could not get lost). I suggested to Cagey that Airbus design their planes with a rest-room in the cockpit, so pilots have no reason to leave the cockpit for a pee, but the truth is you can't devise a fool-proof method of preventing acts like this by humans. Especially on long-haul flights you would need to provide in cock-pit catering facilities as well.

Horrible thing to happen - but very hard to prevent.

[Marco]

This is an absolute tragedy; and one that must now strike fear into the hearts of every regular flier... I ruled out terrorist involvement almost right away, as what kind of terrorist goes to the (not inconsiderable) effort of taking over a huge passenger aircraft and uses that opportunity simply to crash it into the side of a mountain?

Nope, fuel permitting (and I've heard of no reports mentioning that the plane was short on fuel), the pilot would've guided the plane towards a major city instead (or indeed what was to stop him fulfilling the scheduled destination of the aircraft and crashing it there?) thus causing as much damage and taking out as many innocent lives as possible, in order to make a 'suitable political statement', and the effort of the hi-jack worthwhile.

If that's not true, then he was a pretty dim terrorist.

For me, until proven differently, this is simply a totally bizarre, one-off incident, due to the co-pilot (for an as yet unknown reason) suffering a complete mental breakdown, and deciding to involve his passengers whilst committing the most outrageous form of suicide.

So sad. My thoughts go out to the families of all the deceased.

Marco.

[Tim]

Some planes have an armed guard on the plane.
If you mean an Air Marshall Grant, I agree many flights should have them, especially long haul. However, post 9/11 cockpit doors are now very secure and it's doubtful even an Air Marshall would have been able to breach a door secured by the cockpit occupant, especially a plane flown in a deliberate dive. The questionable failing here is leaving a single pilot/occupant in the cockpit in charge of the plane, with the ability to lock out the other pilot. Many airlines stipulate that there should never be a single occupant present on the flight deck.

The comment earlier about a massive heart attack would not have caused this, the pilot would have been able to access the flight deck under such circumstances.

[struth]

might be difficult but as you say you should never only have one person in cockpit. i guess on these cheap flights there may be less crew i dont know. i dont fly now.

[The Barbarian]

Might sound crazy but every time i step on a plane im 50/50 about seeing tomorrow. I don't like having a crap job with little money but at least it stops the wife wanting to go on holiday putting me through 2 week of boredom :)

[CageyH]

It's difficult to maintain a full flight deck, with only a two man crew when the call of nature beckons.

[Tim]

Many airlines stipulate with a two 'person' crew on the flight deck, if one wishes to leave they must be replaced by a member of the cabin crew until they return, so even budget airlines can adhere to this rule.

[The Black Adder]

It's simply awful... Unbelievable. So very sad.

[Tim]

Might sound crazy but every time i step on a plane im 50/50 about seeing tomorrow. I don't like having a crap job with little money but at least it stops the wife wanting to go on holiday putting me through 2 week of boredom :)
Still very safe André, statistically if you are a regular flyer there is a one in 12 million chance of being involved in an 'air incident' and even then you are more likely to survive than perish. Not all aircraft incidents end in such a catastrophic total loss of life. To get one in 12 million into a comprehensible understandable form, if you were to board an international flight at random every single day, statistically it would be over a thousand years before you would experience an air incident and as previously stated, you would still have a chance of surviving it than perishing.

Sit near the exits over the wings, know where your exits are and don't panic - its all good :)

Having said all the every-time I get on an aircraft there is always an uneasiness I experience at take off and then during the descent, which is stupid really, I never feel that before I get in my car, which is far more risky!

This however is quite incomprehensible.

[CageyH]

Many airlines stipulate with a two 'person' crew on the flight deck, if one wishes to leave they must be replaced by a member of the cabin crew until they return, so even budget airlines can adhere to this rule.

To quote from the Guardian

At least four airliners, including EasyJet and Norwegian Air Shuttle, announced they would adopt new cockpit rules. Unlike many US carriers, European companies generally do not require two people in the cockpit at all times. Lufthansa does not voluntarily implement such a protocol.

[Tim]

It's shocking that 150 people had to die for European carriers to realise they were operating with flawed cockpit safety regulations?

Mind you it's never easy stopping a determined aggressor if they catch you by surprise, so even with the addition of a member of cabin crew in the cockpit, is no guarantee it won't ever happen again. Some things are almost impossible to stop, no matter how many rules or regulations you have.

[CageyH]

It's an FAA requirement, not an EASA one.
That may change now though.

[Jason P]

It's shocking that 150 people had to die for European carriers to realise they were operating with flawed cockpit safety regulations?

Mind you it's never easy stopping a determined aggressor if they catch you by surprise, so even with the addition of a member of cabin crew in the cockpit, is no guarantee it won't ever happen again. Some things are almost impossible to stop, no matter how many rules or regulations you have.

The problem with this 'two in the cabin at all times' rule is that you're replacing one risk with another. Given the cost and time of training pilots (£100k give or take and years of study, initial commercial flight and eventually a chance for a first officer position, with numerous psych tests and crew assessments on the way) and the training of a cabin steward (a few months and paid for by the company), if I were hell bent on accessing the flight deck for nefarious means I know which route I'd take - and now the airlines have mandated that the remaining pilot be left alone with a member of cabin crew that is subject to far less rigorous testing. So you've potentially replaced one problem with another.

One possible solution is two lockable doors - one to the flight deck and another between the main cabin and the forward loos, locked when the pilot or copilot needs to use it - but again this would cost millions to retrofit.

In truth there is no way to legislate against such random and rare occurrences, without making flying more expensive and even more uncomfortable for both passengers and crew. Many professional pilots feel that the post 9/11 security measures have done little to mitigate risk, but have to be 'seen' to be done. Then you have a culture within the airline industry that means any admission of mental health issues effectively means 'game over' for your career - changing that mentality could lead to more openness with regard to stress and pressures at work, and that might go some way to preventing this terrible tragedy happening again, but again the brutal truth is there is a cost/benefit/likelihood equation that plays out in all decisions relating to mass transit of all kinds.

None of that takes away the horror of the event in France, and the pain the families of the victims (and of the pilot) must be going through right now. But, knowing a few professional pilots, they are generally all of a mindset - they love to fly, they take great pride in their job, and feel the responsibility of their charges sitting behind them quite keenly. Shocking and tragic though this event is, I'd happily get on a plane tomorrow and feel safe in the hands of the crew up front.

[Firebottle]

A very good post Jason.

Well it looks like the Co-pilot was crazy from articles in the press. He certainly gets my 'Bastard of the Decade' award.

Alan

[Marco]

Well it looks like the Co-pilot was crazy from articles in the press.


I don't buy newspapers, Alan. Got any links to the above being reported on-line? :)

Marco.

[Gordon Steadman]

I don't buy newspapers, Alan. Got any links to the above being reported on-line? :)

Marco.

Just about any of the papers are reporting this Guardian, Indy and of course, if you want the lurid, just Google Daily Mail. As Alan says, even if he was sick, to knowingly take 150 people to their deaths because you want to end it all is worthy of rotting in hell - if there is one. Otherwise there is nothing that could be considered justice.

[walpurgis]

ITV site: http://www.itv.com/news/story/2015-03-27/germanwings-co-pilot-hid-illness-from-employers/

[RobbieGong]

Yes, It's being reported that he was suffering from an 'illness' / depression and that something very significant was found at his home. Still terribly sad and shocking the way he's decided to 'resolve' his issue though.

[struth]

Apparently Germanwings had slogan, "Get ready to be surprised," :doh: it has been removed from the London underground unsurprisingly.
Saw Reports the investigators found a sick note at his home that had been torn up