View Full Version : Technics SL-1210 M3D Upgrade Project / Build Thread
Intro thread here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?37566-Introduction).
Back in 2006 I built an SL-1210Mk5 with the following spec:
- Brand new SL-1210Mk5
- SDS Isoplatmat
- Origin Live Rega Arm Board
- Michell TechnoArm 'A'
- Isonoe Feet
- Pickering Red Button Clamp
I've owned a number of tables since (including a Mk2), but that Technics probably sticks out as my favourite. So when I spotted a barely used M3D for sale locally, I decided to buy it as the basis for a new project. It dates back to 2003, and other than some very minor signs of use, it's virtually as new:
http://s1.postimg.org/ddn9ahgdb/DSC02329.jpg
As far as I can tell, it's more or less identical to the Mk5.
Project Brief:
I've set it up and used it as standard for the past couple of days. The sound is perfectly enjoyable. The frequency balance is broadly as I'd like it, and it times well. Bass is plentiful but much too soft, and the upper frequencies could do with a bit of sparkle and clarity. Compared with the resident Avid Ingenium/SME V setup (and compared with the digital front end), it presents as generally soft and poorly defined. I don't mean that to sound too critical. It's a fine deck for the money as standard IMO, but the Avid/SME (or better) is the standard I'm aiming for with this project.
So, I'd like to upgrade the turntable on a moderate budget (not fixed but think hundreds rather than thousands). I also want it to remain as practical and simple as possible, so no outboard PSUs or plinths. There's no particular urgency, but I'd like to get it to a point where it's significantly improved in the next couple of months.
Upgrade Thoughts
Mat - I was very impressed with the SDS mat on the Mk5, especially in conjunction with the Pickering clamp. Those two components alone transformed the performance of the deck. So my inclination is to go with another set of the same, but perhaps it's worth trying the Achromat 1200? Or the Origin Live 'felt' mat?
Bearing - New territory for me, but there's plenty to read on this forum, and it seems to be fairly broadly accepted that this is one of the most effective upgrade options. So bearing in mind cost (geddit!), is it worth spending a significant sum on the Mike New option? Or are the alternatives equally worthwhile? Is there a DIY option?
Electronics - Is there anything worthwhile to be done whilst keeping all of the electronics and transformer on board?
Feet - Inclined to go with the Origin Live feet at £40, as I was never blown away by the Isonoe feet first time around.
Arm - I'm not a big fan of the original arm. I'm sure it can be made to perform well, but I'd expect it to be the limiting factor. I am very tempted to fit the SME V, but I may want to sell that at some point. So if not the SME, then Jelco? Or Michell? Or Origin Live? Or Linn? Has anyone fitted a Roksan Nima on a 1210? I'd rather just buy the one armboard!
Platter - Again, what's cost effective?
--
All feedback/thoughts greatly appreciated. I'm sure there will be conflicting opinions but the experience is nevertheless valuable. I'd also welcome any offers of used components that you think might compliment the build well.
I'll post further photographs and impressions once the work gets underway.
Very nice looking Deck.
Bearing in mind costs- like I do
The thread on
Can you improve the stock techie bearing???
Will give you an insight to some DIY bearing mods.
If you have access to a lathe or a friend who can help I can give you the info as to how to make one of my modded bearings, should not cost much more than £35. If you can't DIY to that level drop me a PM and I'll help where I can.
I'd try and get the mains transformer out of the deck, gets rid of any traces of 50hz hum and stray magnetic fields
Ianmac
So, I'd like to upgrade the turntable on a moderate budget
I'm convinced a very good 1210 can be done on a limited budget, especially if you are prepared to get your hands dirty and do some DIY. Platter, Bearing, removal of PSU, internal damping can all be DIY.
perhaps it's worth trying the Achromat 1200? Or the Origin Live 'felt' mat?
I've got both. They are ok with the nod going to the Achromat. There are probably better options.
Bearing - New territory for me, but there's plenty to read on this forum, and it seems to be fairly broadly accepted that this is one of the most effective upgrade options. So bearing in mind cost (geddit!), is it worth spending a significant sum on the Mike New option? Or are the alternatives equally worthwhile? Is there a DIY option?
I am running a prototype of IanMacs bearing - it's ridiculously good.
Arm - I'm not a big fan of the original arm. I'm sure it can be made to perform well, but I'd expect it to be the limiting factor. I am very tempted to fit the SME V, but I may want to sell that at some point. So if not the SME, then Jelco? Or Michell? Or Origin Live? Or Linn? Has anyone fitted a Roksan Nima on a 1210? I'd rather just buy the one armboard!
The Jelco 750D is fab value for money - but you really do have to get the Shuggie Collar as well. Over the last few months I was thinking of upgrading but gave up.
Thanks for your input gents.
Ianmac: Having read the other thread re. DIY bearing modification, I think it's a no brainer to give your modified bearing a go if you'd be kind enough to supply one. I've sent you a PM.
belloire
25-03-2015, 17:23
there's a jelco 750d arm and mounting board for sale in the classifieds ;) (it might be mine..... marked as pimped sl1210 for sale) happy to pop to lancs if you want a look/try?
the biggest difference on my 1210mk5 came from taking the psu offboard. this was done using some circuit board/designs from qwin and 6l6 (i think...)
i can't make any comment on the arm, as i bought it on the deck, however the deck was a big upgrade from my mk2 before it with standard arm.
Thanks for the kind offer Darren.
I've decided to give it a try with the SME V, and ordered an armboard. So I'll see how it goes with that, Ian's bearing, and some OL feet. I'll also see if I can pick up an SDS mat if they're at Scalford again.
That might be all that's required for the standard I'm hoping to achieve. If not, I might have a rethink and look at a cheaper arm (such as the Jelco), a MN bearing, maybe an aftermarket platter etc.
Fundamentally, I like the style and practicality of the deck, and I'd really rather not make it a two box affair. So I'll hold off on the external PSU for now, but it may be something to revisit that at some point in the future.
Ian's bearing arrived today:
http://s13.postimg.org/7542jhusn/DSC02337.jpg
Wonder why the original doesn't have the same casting (i.e. the markings on the surface)..
Very quick postage, well packaged, and with a useful information sheet. It certainly looks the part compared with the original, and the quality of Ian's engineering/finishing is superb.
Having not changed one before, I had to look up some instructions online. A 10 minute job to fit it. Pretty sure nobody had been here before:
http://s3.postimg.org/bwl3knihf/DSC02335.jpg
It's a brand new bearing, so I'll leave it running for a day and give it a listen over the weekend.
Some bearings Ive come across dont have the markings on the top and are slightly different dimensionally in some areas.
I assume the markings are a form of date stamp and moulding reference
My own Technics is MK5 and it had the top side markings. Ive bought 4 new bearings in the last two weeks from different sources and all have the same markings and part number.
Perhaps the markings were 'added' after the M3D was made, or that model or batch just didn't have any for some reason. Just wondered really :)
It's a brand new bearing, so I'll leave it running for a day and give it a listen over the weekend.
I was impressed with Ian's bearing out of the box, so to speak. Then after a week, an hour or so a day I suppose, I noticed it was even better.
As for the 'markings': it is curious, but my initial thought is that it does not have any sonic significance.
So how does it SOUND, Alex? That's the main thing! ;)
What sonic improvements can you hear over what the stock bearing offers, and how would you describe the overall sonic improvement (if you perceive it as such) brought about by fitting Ian's modified bearing to your T/T? :)
Marco.
So how does it SOUND, Alex? That's the main thing
^^^THIS^^^
Be patient! :)
I only just started listening to it again today. Initial impressions are very positive, but I've also fitted the OL feet this morning. So I'd like to swap the bearing back out and in a couple of times, before I report back.
allthingsanalogue
29-03-2015, 22:39
http://s3.postimg.org/bwl3knihf/DSC02335.jpg
It's a brand new bearing, so I'll leave it running for a day and give it a listen over the weekend.
Don't forget to put the bearing screws back in (long ones) if you haven't already.
I did :)
What a difference a week makes.
I've fitted the OL feet and pads, Ianmac's bearing, and a Sound Damped Steel Stainless Isoplatmat (285mm). I'm using the standard rubber mat over the SDS for the moment, but may look at the SDS cover. Apart from that, I'm still using the standard arm, but have removed the rubber o-ring from the headshell. All easy 'bolt-on' stuff, but taken together, it's a very significant upgrade to the stock deck (with the same cartridge/phono stage). Specifically, there's clearly less surface noise, much better clarity and definition throughout the frequency range, more detail, better cohesion and much better imaging and projection. There's still room for improvement, but in short, I'd say that it's definitely come into focus and come to life. I'd be quite happy to live with it as it stands. In fact, it's already far better than I expected would be possible with the stock arm!
In terms of the individual 'upgrades', I haven't really had the time (or patience) to try each and every combination in order to discern exactly what is I think each component contributes. All three seemed to offer a clear and incremental improvement, but I think it's very much a case of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. If I was pushed, I'd probably say that the SDS mat had the most profound effect - it genuinely deadens the (very resonant!) platter. My impression is that Ian's bearing isn't far behind, and is a definite improvement on stock.
I'll post more impressions once I've had a chance to listen for longer, and try some alternative arms. But so far, so good.
Nice to read you are making good progress.
I can appreciate the problems associated with commenting on individual upgrades when a few improvements have been made in a very short time period.
Take your time, Enjoy the music.
SME armboard arrived, and SME V fitted:
http://s11.postimg.org/4eanw2cqr/DSC02407.jpg
:D
I wasn't sure what to expect with this, as the deck was already pretty well up to scratch. But it's made a massive difference. What was immediately apparent (and impressive) is that the deck now does PRaT in a way that I've only heard before with digital sources. It's addictive. The SME also unearths about 10 more layers of detail, far more texture and depth of tone, and provides real insight into the timbre and decay of notes. There's also much better stereo separation and soundstage width. I'd confidently say that it's now the best vinyl front end I've had at home.
I had been inclined to sell the SME as it could be considered overkill in this context. But I think the Technics allows it to shine better than the Avid did. I would be interested to see how it compares with a Jelco 750 equipped table. From memory, the Technoarm equipped deck (as much as I liked it) didn't come close to this.
All in, it's now fitted with OL feet and pads, an SDS stainless Isoplatmat, an SDS soft mat, f1sport SME armboard, SME V, and Ianmac's bearing. The only thing I'm inclined to try soon is a record clamp.
belloire
03-04-2015, 12:15
Have a bake off Alex, I'll brink my mk5 with 750d on for a listen ;-)
Got a nice clamp to try too.....
Great stuff, Alex, and looking good! :)
However, unless I've missed it, I can't see where you've reported on the efficacy of Ian's bearing in isolation, before you fitted the SME. If you've fitted both at once, then you'll be unable to determine which upgrade has provided what sonic difference - and therefore interested members won't know how much better Ian's bearing is compared with the stock one......
That said, it's testament to just how good a 'platform' the Technics acts as, that your SME arm is shining more there than on the Avid!! That's one for the badge snobs to ponder ;)
All you need now is a better platter... And yes, that does also make a significant difference.
Marco.
I don't think a better platter will make any difference under the SDS platter mat. :eyebrows:
Thanks Marco.
I have only made one modification at a time (albeit in quick succession), but as I noted above, I think it's very much a case of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. If any one element delivers greater precision or isolation (or whatever it's intended purpose), then it should allow the other components to better play their part, and so on.
However, you're right, I need to report on the influence of Ian's bearing in isolation. So, I've swapped it out with stock bearing three times this afternoon, playing consistent tracks between each swap. The rest of the deck is as per the photo above with SME etc.
I have to say that it's not an easy component to properly evaluate. It's time consuming and distracting to exchange the bearing, so doesn't make for an easy or direct A-B comparison. That being said, my impression is that changing back to the original bearing clearly and consistently introduces a slight veil over the sound. It robs it of some fine detail and expession, and is dynamically constrained by comparison with Ian's bearing. The standard bearing also lends a slightly darker, less vivid, tone to the presentation.
Overall, I'd say that Ian's bearing offers clear and worthwhile enhancements to the performance of the deck, and offers excellent value in doing so. It also allows for further experimentation by changing the oil, which I hope to do at some point. However, the enhancements I've described are relatively subtle when compared with the arm upgrade. The difference in performance with the SME is absolutely night and day for me (and it needs to be at the price). Likewise, the SDS was very clearly superior to the standard rubber mat, and probably goes some way toward the performance of an upgrade platter.
keiron99
03-04-2015, 15:28
SME armboard arrived, and SME V fitted:
Wow. An SME V. You don't mess about do you :stalks:
Maybe one day when I win the lottery...:D
Well I probably wouldn't have bought one especially!
I picked the SME V up from a friend who switched to a Tri-Planar a couple of years ago (that would also be an interesting arm to try on the 1210), and I bought the Avid Ingenium to pair it up with. Although it's their entry level turntable, it's beautifully engineered, and an unusually elegant design. And it's a very competent performer. But it doesn't offer the practicality/ergonomics of the Technics, nor the upgrade potential, as this experiment has proven.
Alex,
many thanks for your feedback.
Ian
You're welcome Ian. Thanks for the opportunity to give it a try. ;)
Got a nice clamp to try too.....
What do you have? What's worth a shot?
The red button clamp I referred to in the OP seems to be discontinued. I'm not really a fan of just using a record weight.
So, maybe a Michell clamp? Or a Souter Clever Clamp? Anyone tried the latter?
belloire
03-04-2015, 22:01
I've got an orsonic ds200g
I really like the look of it, but I'm not sure about its effect on sound. Unless there is an obvious warp I don't think it makes much difference. That's just me though, my pal swears by a Mitchell clamp on his techy.
Hi Alex,
I have only made one modification at a time (albeit in quick succession), but as I noted above, I think it's very much a case of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. If any one element delivers greater precision or isolation (or whatever it's intended purpose), then it should allow the other components to better play their part, and so on.
Yes I do agree.
However, you're right, I need to report on the influence of Ian's bearing in isolation. So, I've swapped it out with stock bearing three times this afternoon, playing consistent tracks between each swap. The rest of the deck is as per the photo above with SME etc.
I have to say that it's not an easy component to properly evaluate. It's time consuming and distracting to exchange the bearing, so doesn't make for an easy or direct A-B comparison. That being said, my impression is that changing back to the original bearing clearly and consistently introduces a slight veil over the sound. It robs it of some fine detail and expession, and is dynamically constrained by comparison with Ian's bearing. The standard bearing also lends a slightly darker, less vivid, tone to the presentation.
Overall, I'd say that Ian's bearing offers clear and worthwhile enhancements to the performance of the deck, and offers excellent value in doing so. It also allows for further experimentation by changing the oil, which I hope to do at some point.
Good to get your feedback on this, which I'm sure will be of benefit to members considering going for one of Ian's modded bearings. What you've reported is also my experience of some of the gains to be had from improving the stock Technics bearing and/or moving to using an MN one. One has to remember that the original bearing, like everything else on the T/T, was built to a price, and so if done right, can easily be improved upon - and not necessarily expensively.
However, the enhancements I've described are relatively subtle when compared with the arm upgrade. The difference in performance with the SME is absolutely night and day for me (and it needs to be at the price). Likewise, the SDS was very clearly superior to the standard rubber mat, and probably goes some way toward the performance of an upgrade platter.
Significant tonearm upgrades are always going to give more 'bang for your buck' than pretty much anything else on a T/T, as their efficacy is of fundamental importance, in terms of accurately extracting musical information from the record grooves.
However, the best tonearm can also only perform at its full potential if given the optimum 'platform' to do so, which is where on any T/T the quality of the plinth, motor unit, PSU, etc, comes in. A turntable, after all, is a system of components, not simply a random collection of disparate parts! ;)
I agree about the SDS. Are you also using it as your T/T mat, as well as an interface with which to dampen the platter? If so, there are better T/T mats around for the purpose of supporting records, than the SDS, once the Technics platter has been suitably damped.
You should consider either an Achromat or Resomat, and use either of them together with the SDS, as that will provide superior results, compared with just using the SDS on its own. Essentially, the latter acts simply as a very effective platter dampener, and the former (either Achromat or Resomat) as an ideal way to support and/or interface with the record itself.
Marco.
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