IPL speaker build

[Covenant]

I started work at the weekend building a pair of IPL S2TLK CD3 Ribbon transmission line speakers.
My father in law who is 80 this year, did most of the graft but I lent a hand and made sandwiches and tea.
The way that it was built was to screw it all together then take it apart again to glue it together. About 80 wood screws used I think.
I used an old curtain pole inside to stiffen up the structure, it all seems solid enough.1426714268

[walpurgis]

I reckon you're going to like those Jerry, IPL speakers have a good reputation. I have a liking for transmission line speakers myself. It's good the father in law can help you, two pairs of hands is often essential on that kind of job. :)

[Zoidburg]

I have a pair of ipl's as my main speakers, I think they're very good though I bought them already built by the previous owner.

Good luck be v interested to hear your impressions of them once up and running

How are you going to finish them?

[Covenant]

I have a pair of ipl's as my main speakers, I think they're very good though I bought them already built by the previous owner.

Good luck be v interested to hear your impressions of them once up and running

How are you going to finish them?

Oak veneer Ben, ironed on to the MDF. I am not sure how to get a really neat edge and will be looking for advice!

[walpurgis]

Just a bit of advice. Oak is one of the trickier veneers to work with. It can be very brittle and prone to distorting and splitting. I've used it and it can be a real pain to apply. If you're not experienced in this type of work, I'd suggest looking for an alternative, easier to handle wood veneer in a colour you like.

[Covenant]

Just a bit of advice. Oak is one of the trickier veneers to work with. It can be very brittle and prone to distorting and splitting. I've used it and it can be a real pain to apply. If you're not experienced in this type of work, I'd suggest looking for an alternative, easier to handle wood veneer in a colour you like.

Already got it Geoff!Bought 5 rolls of it off IPL.

[walpurgis]

Already got it Geoff!Bought 5 rolls of it off IPL.

OK Jerry. Best have a good read up on applying it then. Good luck with it. :thumbsup:

[The Alchemist]

Hi Jerry,
I have just completed a pair of S2 tlK's for a customer and you will be pleased to know that they sound great! I have a pair of S2tlP's myself which I am very happy with but the Kevlar coned drivers have a bit more more bass which is ideal if your room is large enough. I'm sure that when they are finished you will spend a lot of time listening to your favourite music. I certainly did. I will post some pictures of the build when I get some time.
I used to use PVA glue and screws but these days I use 5 Minute Polyurethane wood glue and no screws at all. It is particulary good when the last side is fixed because it has a slight foaming action so will fill any gaps. I see that you have opted for iron on veneer. Every method has its pros and cons but I have not used it because the roll will not be wide enough to cover the sides without a join which is why I use 8 foot by 4 foot paper backed sheets which are just large enough to cover an S2 cabinet without any joins. As far as trimming the veneer I can offer some advice if you need it. A long steel rule and a wheel cutter will be of great help!

[Covenant]

Hi Jerry,
I have just completed a pair of S2 tlK's for a customer and you will be pleased to know that they sound great! I have a pair of S2tlP's myself which I am very happy with but the Kevlar coned drivers have a bit more more bass whcih is ideal if your room is large enough. I'm sure that when they are finished you will spend a lot of time listening to your favourite music. I certainly did. I will post some pictures of the build when I get some time.
I used to use PVA glue and screws but these days I use 5 Minute Polyurethane wood glue and no screws at all. It is particulary good when the last side is fixed because it has a slight foaming action so will fill any gaps. I see that you have opted for iron on veneer. Every method has its pros and cons but I have not used it because the roll will not be wide enough to cover the sides without a join which is why I use 8 foot by 4 foot paper backed sheets which are just large enough to cover an S2 cabinet without any joins. As far as trimming the veneer I can offer some advice if you need it. A long steel rule and a wheel cutter will be of great help!

Hi Richard,
It's good to know the end product will be worth the effort. I wish I had talked to you before ordering the veneer! Where do I get the wheel cutter?

[Reffc]

For the veneer, I agree. Use paper or wood pulp backed veneer, and buy a sheet. It wont tend to split as easily as non-backed veneers. For glue, a high quality PVA (NOT the stuff you buy at DIY shops). When veneering, allow 10mm or so all round for ensuring a good fit and because the veneer will move a little during line up and gluing. Use a veneer hammer or block (a lump of smoothed timber rounded at the edges) to press down from the centre to the outside. If using an iron, be careful as too much heat will damage the glue. Only just enough to heat it up so that it thins out, grabs and starts to bond, then immediately smooth over with lots of pressure using the veneering block. This takes the excess heat out of the glue and allows it to set properly. When one side is done, reverse it so it lies flat aganst a cutting surface, and very carefully use a veneering cutting wheel or scalpel to trim to within 1mm of the edge. Then carefully, using a flat sanding block and 320 grit paper gently sand the edges lightly to the join. Dont attempt to cut to the join as it will end in tears if you're not proficient with the cutter and experienced with the veneer. Personally, I wouldn't use iron-on veneers (as opposed to using an iron with veneer and PVA glue). They never seem to stick properly, have a tendency to bubble and can really try the patience!

[awkwardbydesign]

Just a bit of advice. Oak is one of the trickier veneers to work with. It can be very brittle and prone to distorting and splitting. I've used it and it can be a real pain to apply. If you're not experienced in this type of work, I'd suggest looking for an alternative, easier to handle wood veneer in a colour you like.

But not Wenge. Oh God, NO!

[walpurgis]

If you are obliged to use iron on veneer. I've found a useful trick is to give the surface to which it is to be applied a thin coat of contact adhesive first and allow it to dry. Thixofix is what I use, not had any problems with it.

[struth]

If you are obliged to use iron on veneer. I've found a useful trick is to give the surface to which it is to be applied a thin coat of contact adhesive first and allow it to dry. Thixofix is what I use, not had any problems with it.

Good tiip..

.... also if yo wait inbetween pieces a while is advisable as it can occasionally shrink very slightly and can leave a join split

[The Alchemist]

Hi Jerry,
I got my wheel cutter from Clas Ohlson but they shouldn't be too difficult to find. It is just like a miniature pizza cutter.
Use a long steel rule against the cabinet and carefully run the blade along it. You will then be able to safely trim to within a mm or so. Going with the grain is easy and one cut will usually suffice but going accross the grain is more difficult so to avoid tearing the grain, score the veneer with a few light passes before making the final cut. Paul has suggested using fine paper to finish the edge but it will take forever and a day using 320 grit. If you are carefull you can start with a fairly coarse paper and the use progressively finer paper to give the final edge. Bear in mind that if you want to lacquer the cabinets ( I get mine professionally finished with 2-pack lacquer), you will need to "round off" the edges slightly. If the corners are too sharp the lacquer will not stick properly. I have not used PVA glue to stick veneer but I am a fan of Scotchweld 30 which is a water based neoprene contact adhesive. It is not horribly messy like some contact adhesives but it takes no prisoners! No movement is possible when contact is made so very carefull alignment is essential. A roller (no wider than 3 inches) is then used to very firmly stick the veneer on. I am looking forward to hearing your impressions of your new speakers when they are finished. As far as I am concerned the are amongst the best speakers on the planet- regardless of cost and I will be interested to see if you agree with me.

[r100]

I'd really like to build one of these myself but shipping of the driver kit is super expensive (to Switzerland). sigh !

[Reffc]

Hi Jerry,
I got my wheel cutter from Clas Ohlson but they shouldn't be too difficult to find. It is just like a miniature pizza cutter.
Use a long steel rule against the cabinet and carefully run the blade along it. You will then be able to safely trim to within a mm or so. Going with the grain is easy and one cut will usually suffice but going accross the grain is more difficult so to avoid tearing the grain, score the veneer with a few light passes before making the final cut. Paul has suggested using fine paper to finish the edge but it will take forever and a day using 320 grit. If you are carefull you can start with a fairly coarse paper and the use progressively finer paper to give the final edge. Bear in mind that if you want to lacquer the cabinets ( I get mine professionally finished with 2-pack lacquer), you will need to "round off" the edges slightly. If the corners are too sharp the lacquer will not stick properly. I have not used PVA glue to stick veneer but I am a fan of Scotchweld 30 which is a water based neoprene contact adhesive. It is not horribly messy like some contact adhesives but it takes no prisoners! No movement is possible when contact is made so very carefull alignment is essential. A roller (no wider than 3 inches) is then used to very firmly stick the veneer on. I am looking forward to hearing your impressions of your new speakers when they are finished. As far as I am concerned the are amongst the best speakers on the planet- regardless of cost and I will be interested to see if you agree with me.

You have to be careful not to use too coarse a grit when sanding the edge of veneers as they can be quite brittle and a slight snag is all it can take to split them. I always use either 180 or 320 grit but admittedly cut up to around 0.5mm from the edge so it takes no time at all to gently sand flat.

Good tip RE slightly rounding the edges as you're right about lacquer not liking a sharp edges (as with most finishes). Note that professional results can be obtained at home these days with patience using something like the General Finishes PU water based gloss top coats and they're tough enough for flooring too. Uniquely, they can be applied over the top of oiled finishes providing that the oil finish has been left to fully cure for several days to a week. The Raptors I make are finished this way. The oil brings out the grain beautifully and very slightly darkens the finish and General Finishes top coat provides a durable finish which is UV resistant so the finish wont fade or yellow with age unlike many others. I wouldn't recommend contact adhesives for first time veneerers purely because you only get one bite at the cherry which often is not enough.

[Covenant]

I must say I am hugely impressed with the knowledge and time/effort given in these replies. I really appreciate it.
I am probably a week or two off the veneering as I work full time and am knackered of an evening. No way would I attempt the veneering other than at the weekend.

[The Alchemist]

Paul is absolutley right in advising caution as far as using a coarse paper is concerned. What I ommited to mention was that when using a coarse grit I angle my rubbing block slightly away from the cabinet and only make a flat contact in the later stages when I have moved on to a fine paper. If you have not done this process before, make a few joints and veneer the surfaces. You can then practice rubbing down to a final edge without risk of damaging your cabinets. You will also have something to experiment with various finishes to see how they look.

[Covenant]

Another Saturday morning has seen the cabinets finished other than a sand and final check over. I have to say its quite a job just getting to this stage but hopefully I will be able to try the drivers and crossover tomorrow before attempting the veneer over the bank holiday weekend.14293

[walpurgis]

I have to say its quite a job just getting to this stage

Yeah. I know what it's like. :)

[awkwardbydesign]

Another Saturday morning has seen the cabinets finished other than a sand and final check over. I have to say its quite a job just getting to this stage but hopefully I will be able to try the drivers and crossover tomorrow before attempting the veneer over the bank holiday weekend.14293

I have found that veneering when it is cold and/or damp means that the veneer may shrink after it is applied. Especially if brought into a centrally heated environment.

[Covenant]

Fitted the drivers for a test run today. Everything worked ok. They were only held in with one screw so not a proper test but I can tell I am going to enjoy the finished product. The bass is very strong but it is well controlled and not boomy which was my big worry.:)

[oscarsaudio]

Nice thread hijack :scratch:

[struth]

Nice thread hijack :scratch:

I was in the process of moving that Oscar :)

[Covenant]

Gave the cabinets a final sand today and spent about two hours ironing some of the veneer on. A bit shocked at how much it shrinks and not evenly. At the top corner of one speaker I have a tiny gap, maybe 0.5mm that will need filling somehow.

[brian2957]

Good luck with this Jerry , sounds like a very steep learning curve with little room for error :rolleyes:

[awkwardbydesign]

I gave up on the ironing lark, and went back to contact adhesive. I cut and block sand the edges to be joined, and then stretch masking tape across the join to pull them tight, then run a strip of tape all the way along. I also give it a coat of pre-cat lacquer first to stabilise it and prevent the glue seeping through and marking the face. http://morrells.co.uk/pre-catalyst-lacquers-fastmatch-colours/ I use the 10% sheen, you can brush it on for the first coat, and then roller it on with a very short pile varnish roller. It's meant for spraying, but I get away with it.

[Covenant]

Good luck with this Jerry , sounds like a very steep learning curve with little room for error :rolleyes:

Agreed, still got to face the edge trimming. I think the edge problem is capable of being sorted, its a tiny gap, probably some light coloured filler will sort it.

[awkwardbydesign]

I use wax, I have several colours, and it is possible to mix them. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Veneers-Online-Softwax-or-Hard-Wax-Stick-Wood-Furniture-Scratch-Filler-Repair-/300894531431?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item460eb62f67

[Covenant]

I use wax, I have several colours, and it is possible to mix them. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Veneers-Online-Softwax-or-Hard-Wax-Stick-Wood-Furniture-Scratch-Filler-Repair-/300894531431?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item460eb62f67

Thanks Richard, thats probably the answer

[struth]

If t crosses a grain line then you can buy graining pens to reinstate it thus the eye doesn't get drawn to it. I use both waxes myself. you can get special tools to use with them and touch up wood paint as well. Dunno if you can get the paint in uk though, I got mine from the US.

[The Alchemist]

For people who are following this thread who like the idea of building their own speakers but are apprehenisve about veneering I can suggest cheap and easy alternative.


http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah213/thealchemist3/DSCN0032_zpsjgbx98kn.jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/thealchemist3/media/DSCN0032_zpsjgbx98kn.jpg.html)


The cabinets are painted with matt black paint and then covered with grille material which is sewed together to make a tube. There is , of couse, a seam at the back of the speakers but who looks at the back? The top and bottom overlaps are stapled to the cabinets and then a "capping" piece of suitable material is used on the top of the speaker. I used Blue Pearl granite which matches the decor in my room, but marble or wood could be used as appropriate. Since I have no young children in my house I have not attached the granite to the speaker but it would, of course, be safer to firmly fix the capping material to the cabinet.


http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah213/thealchemist3/DSC_0001_zpslipayges.jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/thealchemist3/media/DSC_0001_zpslipayges.jpg.html)


The advantage of this method is that is is easy, inexpensive and quick. In the case a transmission line speaker it very neatly covers the open mouth of the line. If the cloth is damaged it is easy to replace.:)

[Covenant]

They are like my old Vandersteen 1C,s.

[Covenant]

Work has proceeded very slowly on the cabinets as I am generally working until about 7.30pm. The veneering was really difficult. Following instructions, I taped the joints vertically and horizontally before ironing but the joints still opened up. The adhesive on the back of the masking tape is very difficult to remove as sandpaper gets clogged-scrapers were used but there is more to do. I have one or two splits in the veneer to deal with as well. But the cabinets are starting to take shape and small plinths have been added. I set them on a recessed block so they look like they are floating-well, that,s the idea anyway. The plinths are taped up at the moment but they are solid oak with a hollow section which will be fitted with something heavy.
1458514586

[The Barbarian]

Ahhhhhhh that's cheating :D Nothing new tho, The Mordaunt Short 'Pageant 3', Kef 'Concordant 3' & 'Celeste 3' to name a few did the same.

[Covenant]

I am getting near the end of the cabinet work so have been thinking about the finish. Reading another thread, it seems that Danish oil is a good choice. As I don't want to change the colour much, that is what I will go for assuming its ok on a plain oak surface?

[Firebottle]

They look good Jerry. Yes Danish oil is a very nice finish, and easy to use :D

[Reffc]

I am getting near the end of the cabinet work so have been thinking about the finish. Reading another thread, it seems that Danish oil is a good choice. As I don't want to change the colour much, that is what I will go for assuming its ok on a plain oak surface?

Danish is fine with Oak. The secret to a good finish is not to apply the coats too thickly. The first coat will soak in and takes more oil, so dont worry about applying too sparingly for that one. Wipe the excess off after 10 minutes or so and leave for a few hours before applying (sparingly this time) the second coat. Leave to dry and lightly rub down by hand with 320 grit finishing paper next day. A very light rub with that is all that is needed followed by a buff with a clean lint free cloth before applying more oil. You may need to rub down after every other coat for the first 4 or 5 coats following which just lightly applied coats of oil are all that's needed. If you are patient, and allow each consecutive coat to dry and start to oxidise and harden off (24 to 48 hours), then you can start to build up a nice sheen after 6 or more coats. I usually apply up to 9 or 10 coats of oil for the best finish. Once done, a final polish with Carnauba/beeswax mix polish and lots of elbow grease brings up a lovely finish for Oak.

[tiguan]

Danish is fine with Oak. The secret to a good finish is not to apply the coats too thickly. The first coat will soak in and takes more oil, so dont worry about applying too sparingly for that one. Wipe the excess off after 10 minutes or so and leave for a few hours before applying (sparingly this time) the second coat. Leave to dry and lightly rub down by hand with 320 grit finishing paper next day. A very light rub with that is all that is needed followed by a buff with a clean lint free cloth before applying more oil. You may need to rub down after every other coat for the first 4 or 5 coats following which just lightly applied coats of oil are all that's needed. If you are patient, and allow each consecutive coat to dry and start to oxidise and harden off (24 to 48 hours), then you can start to build up a nice sheen after 6 or more coats. I usually apply up to 9 or 10 coats of oil for the best finish. Once done, a final polish with Carnauba/beeswax mix polish and lots of elbow grease brings up a lovely finish for Oak.

I did almost the same on vertical surfaces of turntable, one difference instead of danish oil I had to use tung oil (could not find danish oil here, and yes it changed the color a little to darker side) and second applied the oil with 1000 grit paper. I was suprised how it was shiny after 7 applications, was not expecting that it shall be shiny like that.

[Covenant]

Thanks chaps, oil it is then. I will have a trial go on a spare piece of veneer first. There is some work to do on the gaps between the veneer sheets first. I have filled them with wood filler but have ordered some touch up pens to try and make the joints disappear....

[awkwardbydesign]

Consider whether the filler will take the oil differently from the rest of the veneer. I know that lacquer/varnish is affected, but have very little experience with oil. Hopefully someone with more experience will be able to comment.

[Covenant]

Consider whether the filler will take the oil differently from the rest of the veneer. I know that lacquer/varnish is affected, but have very little experience with oil. Hopefully someone with more experience will be able to comment.

Good point Richard,
I will make a joint with filler and touch up paint on my sample piece.

[Reffc]

Almost all fillers become more obvious if using oils or varnish over them. One trick is to use a little sawdust and mix with pva to make some filler that dries out to a similar colour to the timber which works well for smaller areas. It will still leave an obvious line where applied as the oil/stain/varnish take up into the pores of raw timber will be different to that of any filler. You can also fill small gaps or dints after the surface finishing using a soft wax filler stick colour matched to the timber. It takes patience and a knack to apply properly but the results are usually pretty good.

[Covenant]

Almost all fillers become more obvious if using oils or varnish over them. One trick is to use a little sawdust and mix with pva to make some filler that dries out to a similar colour to the timber which works well for smaller areas. It will still leave an obvious line where applied as the oil/stain/varnish take up into the pores of raw timber will be different to that of any filler. You can also fill small gaps or dints after the surface finishing using a soft wax filler stick colour matched to the timber. It takes patience and a knack to apply properly but the results are usually pretty good.

Paul,
You are right, the filler becomes more noticeable when I applied oil to a sample with a filled joint. Would wax be a better solution?

[Covenant]

In the end I used a water based varnish as I thought the oil darkened the wood too much. I will probably add a wax finish to help mask the odd joint. Just got a cover to put on the bass port.
Sound quality:
I have had them working for about a week now and was prepared for the bass response which is tremendous but not overpowering. I wasn't prepared for how good the ribbon tweeter is and how musical the finished product is. I have some more tweaking to do in terms of the long haired wool but its more just to see if it makes any difference rather than sorting a problem.

[Covenant]

How they look at this stage14734

[walpurgis]

Very smart Jerry. :thumbsup:

[alan47]

If it's any help,i spent a month changing the amount of long haired wool,and ended up where i started.:eyebrows: Maybe best to use what Ivan suggests and just listen for a while,hard not to thou'..:lol:.

[tiguan]

They look beautiful. Enjoy new speakers.

[Puffin]

IPL done, next task......drink lots of IPA and listen to dem choons. Nice Job.

[Firebottle]

+1.............and aren't there a lot of choices of IPA around, brilliant :cool:

[Covenant]

IPL done, next task......drink lots of IPA and listen to dem choons. Nice Job.

How the devil are you Rob? Haven't spoken to you for ages.As it happens I love IPA and may well be consuming some this weekend.