View Full Version : SL1210M5G and DL103R counterweight/Headshell problems
I recently decided to change my gold Technics headshell for a Sumiko HS12 to house my DL103R. all said and done my headshell, cart, and spacer weigh in at 26.5g and I am unable to balance everything, even with the additional technics counterweight. I have heard of a few tricks and actually gaff taped a small socket to the end to finally get it to balance. Now I cant even put my dust cover on:doh:
Though the Sumiko seems to be a better headshell, its a bit fussy to setup with the finger lift and all. not to mention I cant use my technics overhang gauge. shortly after getting the Sumiko I caught word of the AT LH18, so I was thinking of selling the Sumiko and getting that one. Any tips and/or suggestions are appreciated.
Freddy
My Technics 1210M5G is stock except for a KAB Fluid Damper
I think one of these should fit but sure a techy guy will tell you for sure. Its a stub weight the goes in the back of the arm I think.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/251883237570?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0
DarrenHW
24-03-2015, 06:54
I think one of these should fit but sure a techy guy will tell you for sure. Its a stub weight the goes in the back of the arm I think.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/251883237570?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0
+1, alternatively you could source an aftermarket heavier counter weight such as this
14250
Hi Freddy,
Just contact Speedy Steve here, on the forum, and he'll make you a bespoke counterweight, no problem! See here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?6216-Speedy-Steve-s-custom-made-counterweight-balance-and-armboard-service!&highlight=speedy+steve%27s+counterweight
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29401-Magna-Audio-News-amp-Product-Updates
:cool:
Marco.
Thanks Marco, Do you recommend I get the ATLH18 headshell instead of using the Sumiko, or would it be a negligible difference? Also with the non-technics counterweight and heavy headshell/cart, do I need to buy some kind of device that measures tracking force?
+ 1 on Speedy Steve. I am very happy with his work for me.
As regards headshells: My experience with headshells is usually that their difference is very small, ( exception with an Ebony headshell).
I certainly recommend cartridge scales. Scales are cheap and you only have to buy them once. They are more accurate than the rotation system of counterweights. I consider that part and parcel of good setup. It is worth the trouble to isolate the table, make sure it is level, Keep fiddling with the VTA until it is accurate, use a spirit level for azimuth. Aficionados will have thier own preferred tracking weights but I just go for the middle of the manufacturer's recommended range.
Good luck and keep us posted. :wave:
Hi Freddy,
Thanks Marco, Do you recommend I get the ATLH18 headshell instead of using the Sumiko, or would it be a negligible difference?
Yes, in that respect my experience is contrary to Andrei's, especially with a 103 in the equation, which needs plenty of arm/headshell mass, in order to function optimally. Furthermore, due to the nature of its construction, the LH-18 deals with resonance much more effectively than the Sumiko, so yes, it's purchase is rather a no-brainer :)
Also with the non-technics counterweight and heavy headshell/cart, do I need to buy some kind of device that measures tracking force?
Yup, a good digital stylus force gauge is mandatory. You can get loads of good ones on ebay for not too much money.
Marco.
Hi Freddy,
Yes, in that respect my experience is contrary to Andrei's, especially with a 103 in the equation, which needs plenty of arm/headshell mass, in order to function optimally. Furthermore, due to the nature of its construction, the LH-18 deals with resonance much more effectively than the Sumiko, so yes, it's purchase is rather a no-brainer :)
Marco.
I suppose there are (at least) two variables, one being weight and the other being materials. My comments pertain to materials - I'm sure you are right about mass.
Hey, Andrei, it's what ever your experience has told you - there are no rights or wrongs. In my experience, different headshells have made quite a difference to the performance of my arm and T/T, due to how they make the cartridge attached 'behave', for a number of valid reasons.
I've used the LH-18 that Freddy mentions, with a DL-103, and it's a combination I'd wholeheartedly recommend :)
Marco.
Thanks everybody for your input. I have contacted speedy Steve, and now I have to weigh my crude counterweight setup and give him the total weight. but since I want to swap the Sumiko for the ATLH18, I will unfortunately haft to wait even longer to play some LP's. Will it be necessary to have a spacer with the DL103r and ATLH18? I just want to make sure I order everything i need in one shot. I saw that some folks just add another mat to their turntable to help with the VTA, is one method better than the other?
Freddy
Hi Freddy,
I would recommend a spacer, as the 103 is a rather low-bodied cartridge, and with the stock Technics arm, it's impossible to get VTA bang on, due to not being able to wind the arm down low enough to get it level with the playing surface.
Therefore, a spacer would be ideal, and sonically better than a using thicker mat. The spacers I'd recommend are these rather nice hardwood ones, from China (if you don't mind importing stuff). Simply choose your favourite wood finish. The spacers are tailor-made to fit the DL-103:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190506528284?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Or if you fancy having the ability to fine-tune the thickness, these carbon-fibre ones are rather nice: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321216173128?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
Marco, is there any chance those wood spacers would not work with the ATLH18 or are they made to work with any headshell, just trying to avoid future issues. maybe I could ask speedy steve to make a spacer, when he makes my counterweight??
You could indeed, out of ebony, even ones of varying thicknesses, so you could experiment. The ones on ebay will definitely work with with your headshell, as it's simply a matter of lining up the holes with those on the underneath of the LH-18.
The decision is yours, but I'd definitely fit a spacer of some description, as you'll need it to get VTA spot on :)
Marco.
Marco, I came across one of your comments about the LH18, would this apply to my situation with my Stock (except for fluid damper) 1210M5G
Don't go for an LH-18, mate. I've been there and done that.
It's a superb quality headshell, but the problem is the 'bulky bit' at the back, where the azimuth adjustment is, sits too low down, and when a record is playing, almost touches the surface when correct VTA has been achieved, as the 103 is such a low-bodied cartridge, so usually the arm needs to be lowered down to almost the maximum point possible.
Hi Freddy,
Yes that was an issue, but if you fit a nice chunky spacer (maybe get Steve to do you one) between the headshell and cartridge, that will then allow you to raise the arm more to compensate, which will help lift the back end of the headshell off of the record and ensure that it doesn't touch it :)
Marco.
Just drove by a metal works place around the corner from my house, driven by it many times during this search for a cartridge spacer. think I will ask him to replicate the metal magnetic spacer that helps my VTA, but with a non-magnetic material.
Sounds like a good plan, but try and keep the mass down to a minimum, as you've already got 18g with the headshell, excluding cartridge mounting hardware. Overdoing the mass will result in a dull and thick sound, which isn't what you want.
Marco.
decided to go with these, cheap and light. I will try something more exotic in the future.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111630453567
Excellent choice, Freddy!
They'll work well. Get at least a couple of them, to ensure that the 'bulky bit' at the back of the LH-18 is able to be raised far enough up from the record surface, via suitable VTA adjustment, so as not to cause any issues.
Come back and let us know how you're getting on when everything has arrived and been set-up :)
Marco.
Finally got my AT-LH18 and temporary spacers and weighed everything https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8697/16815531229_af4940395f_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/rBVZAe)20150401_113117 (https://flic.kr/p/rBVZAe) by Velvet Spider (https://www.flickr.com/people/29540220@N05/), on Flickr
Nice one, Freddy. Let us know how it sounds, and don't forget to remove the little rubber washer, attached to the bayonet fitting of the headshell, as it will sound better that way :)
Marco.
No get Steve to make you a three piece counterweight that is heavier, lighter or 160odd grams to give you flexibility. I did this to great effect when I used a Technics, sold em, but someone should make these again! Shame Thru / John isn't around the forums anymore.
Thanks Neil, You say 3 piece Counterweight, can you post a link to what your talking about? If I have speedy steve make me a regular single counterweight how does that limit my flexibility?
I bought a set of 5 auxiliary weights for my SL-1210 M5G, no problems anymore with Denon DL-103R, DL-102 and Ortofon SPU Synergy. The last two can't still be leveled at 0 g but can be adjusted at the right VTF of 3 g. See URL below.
http://www.3345rpm.gr/en/turntable-parts/auxiliary-sub-weight-for-technics-mk2-sub-weight-sh1200w-s.asp
Thanks Ronald,
I have been reading on this site and others, that its better to have your counterweight as close to the pivot point as possible. your solution sounds/looks great, except that a big chunk of the weight will be on the very end of the tonearm. should this be a concern?
If I compare the biggest aux. weight for the Technics arm (26 gr) with the counterweight of my 12" Jelco arm (wich is also allmost at the end when used with the DL-102 or SPU) I do not think it will be a problem. I use the DL-103R with ebony body and ebony headshell (total weight 23 gr) in the Technics arm and it sounds very good.
Ronald, I was able to balance my tone arm last night with a socket attached to the aux weight, and it needs to be 44gr, so the heaviest C/W in that package you sent the link for would still be too light. So I guess I will get Speedy Steve to make me 144gr bespoke C/W since the technics main C/W is 100gr and the socket/aux weight jimmy rig weighs 44gr.
Definitely the way to go, Freddy. Let us know how you get on when you get your bespoke C/W, and yes, you want it to end up as close to the arm's pivot point as possible, when optimal VTF has been achieved :)
Marco.
Here is my latest rig with temporary spacers on the headshell and a makeshift counterweight, next stop Speedy Steve. https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7654/16849080417_a9d0bbbf98_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/rETWAv)DSC_2756 (https://flic.kr/p/rETWAv) by Velvet Spider (https://www.flickr.com/people/29540220@N05/), on Flickr https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8769/17056581385_27df3d8a59_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/rZerpp)DSC_2751 (https://flic.kr/p/rZerpp) by Velvet Spider (https://www.flickr.com/people/29540220@N05/), on Flickr
Ronald, I saw that you said the correct VTF for the DL103R was 3g, is that what you prefer because my spec sheet says 2.5g. please anybody chime in on their VTF for the DL103R. I recently found a Shure test record called Era IV Audio Obstacle Course, anybody have experience with it? I'm wondering if it would help with the final adjustments of the DL103R/AT-LH18 azimuth, VTA, etc..
3g, in my experience (and I've been using DL-103s on and off for over 25 years) is WAY too high! The VTF 'sweet spot' is 2.6g, and VTA bang-on level with the record playing surface.
Try that, Freddy, and you should be smiling! :)
Marco
walpurgis
08-04-2015, 09:54
3g, in my experience (and I've been using DL-103s on and off for over 25 years) is WAY too high! The VTF 'sweet spot' is 2.6g, and VTA bang-on level with the record playing surface.
Try that, Freddy, and you should be smiling! :)
Marco
That reflects my experience with the 103. I've also had them tracking happily at around 2.5g.
Marco, Geoff, what is your goto way to get the VTA bang-on level with the record playing surface? Is it a myth that the DL103R is not susceptible to VTA being off a bit, due to the (stock) stylus shape? one last question for you guys (before i order from Steve) Does my spacing between cart and headshell look about right? I am having Steve make me a single wood spacer that covers the length and width of the DL103R.
Seems fine, Freddy. The 'bulky bit' at the back of your AT headshell is well up off of the record playing surface, so that's the important thing. Also, the thicker the spacer you've got, the more adjustment overall you'll have with VTA.
The easiest way to get the latter bang on (and also azimuth, which is also crucial) is to use a little headshell bubble-level, such as those available on ebay, like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turntable-Tonearm-Spirit-Level-Highly-Accurate-Headshell-/351363647014?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item51cee7c626
Marco.
Hi Freddy, I have to reread my posts, maybe I did a typo meaning the DL-102. My 103R has a Shibata stylus and i use it with a VTF of 2.5 gr. For my SPU Synergy and DL-102 I use a VTF of 3.0 gr. Sorry for the confusion.
I am able to use the aux. weights size 3 - size 5 with the 103R and adjust the right VTF of 2.5 gr., with the size 5 aux. weight the C/W is very close to the tonearm bearings when adjusted at 2.5 gr.
These are on their way, in the air, across the pond, to the Paris of the Piedmont, Carrboro North Carolina http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Armboard/IMG_5730.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Armboard/IMG_5730.jpg.html)
keiron99
23-04-2015, 12:57
Marco, Geoff, what is your goto way to get the VTA bang-on level with the record playing surface? Is it a myth that the DL103R is not susceptible to VTA being off a bit, due to the (stock) stylus shape?
There is a pretty convincing school of thought that says VTA makes bugger all difference. If you have 5 minutes, I highly recommend you read this article, which actually became a bit of a legal issue: http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html
I got my Counterweight and spacers from Speedy Steve, they look great. but....I have a problem getting the bespoke C/W over a little nub/tongue thing (not sure what it's called) towards the end of the tonearm. I am hoping to not have to take the whole thing apart, and also fear that removing the little piece will prevent me from ever using the stock technics counterweight for lighter headshell/cart combos. here is a pic so you guys can see what i am talking about. thanks ahead a time for your help. https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7647/17051865290_78e3501d5a_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/rYPgtq)20150422_193922 (https://flic.kr/p/rYPgtq) by Velvet Spider (https://www.flickr.com/people/29540220@N05/), on Flickr
Thanks for that article Keiron. I had trouble finding any results from the tests the TNT guy (Geoff Husband) setup. Do you have a link to any of the results?
There is a pretty convincing school of thought that says VTA makes bugger all difference.
Well that's certainly completely contrary to the 25+ years of experience I've got of setting up turntables. There are certainly some cartridges (and styli) that benefit more from an accurate VTA setting than others, but IME, in most circumstances, even the minutest of adjustments are usually audible, and either sonically beneficial or not.
Marco.
I got my Counterweight and spacers from Speedy Steve, they look great. but....I have a problem getting the bespoke C/W over a little nub/tongue thing (not sure what it's called) towards the end of the tonearm.
That's a queer one, as I don't remember that being there when I used a Technics arm... Does it look as if it's meant to be there, and if so, can you determine its purpose? It's a pity you didn't notice that 'tongue' before, and allow for it, before Steve made your bespoke counterweight balance.
Marco.
keiron99
23-04-2015, 16:22
Well that's certainly completely contrary to the 25+ years of experience I've got of setting up turntables. There are certainly some cartridges (and styli) that benefit more from an accurate VTA setting than others, but IME, in most circumstances, even the minutest of adjustments are usually audible, and either sonically beneficial or not.
Marco.
Did you read the article? I know you're not a measurements kind of guy, but it does make an extremely convincing case! (FWIW, when I've made VTA adjustments I've never heard a difference.)
walpurgis
23-04-2015, 17:00
There is a pretty convincing school of thought that says VTA makes bugger all difference.
To what?
Lets face it. There are still people who would argue that the earth is flat and you fall off the edge if you go too far.
Did you read the article? I know you're not a measurements kind of guy, but it does make an extremely convincing case! (FWIW, when I've made VTA adjustments I've never heard a difference.)
Yes, but you're prone not to hear differences in many things, which others consider as obvious ;)
If I adjust my tonearm's VTA, so that the cartridge is significantly 'tail up' or 'nose down', I'd need to be deaf not to hear the resultant impact on tonality and distortion!!
I had a quick scan at the article, but as its basic premise is so diametrically opposed to what experience has taught me with tonearms, and what I can clearly hear, that the contents have about as much interest or relevance to me as the problem page of the Daily Star.........
Marco.
Marco, it does indeed look like its suppose to be there. in fact on the inside of the technics C/W there is a swirly groove from front to back that the tongue rides in as you turn the weight.
Not sure how to get round that. The solution would've been to have gotten Steve to allow for some 'play' in the design of the C/W, by adjusting the diameter slightly to compensate for the 'tongue' on the arm stub. You don't have that option now unless you ask him to make another counterweight.
Marco.
yes, this is true. I know that he has done other C/W for my turntable in the past, so I didnt think to investigate.
keiron99
23-04-2015, 19:01
Thanks for that article Keiron. I had trouble finding any results from the tests the TNT guy (Geoff Husband) setup. Do you have a link to any of the results?
It is a fascinating article. I'm not sure what results you are referring to? The article contains the calculations.
For those who have only skim read it, I thoroughly recommend this as essential reading even if you are a VTA believer. It explains the relationship (mathematically) between VTA, SRA (which is the important thing, not VTA) and tracking force.
The author's findings made such a mockery of Roy Gregory of HiFi Plus that he threatened legal action...then backed down in the face of the evidence.
keiron99
23-04-2015, 19:05
but IME, in most circumstances, even the minutest of adjustments are usually audible, and either sonically beneficial or not.
How minute are you talking?
As the reports states in an example, a 1mm change in arm height will change SRA by 0.19 degree. Given that changes in arm height at the pivot end have considerably less influence than any geometric changes at the cartridge end, just think of the relatively enormous changes in SRA that will be created by even the smallest of warps or imperfections in a record, or the difference in thickness between records!
I got my Counterweight and spacers from Speedy Steve, they look great. but....I have a problem getting the bespoke C/W over a little nub/tongue thing (not sure what it's called) towards the end of the tonearm. I am hoping to not have to take the whole thing apart, and also fear that removing the little piece will prevent me from ever using the stock technics counterweight for lighter headshell/cart combos. here is a pic so you guys can see what i am talking about. thanks ahead a time for your help. https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7647/17051865290_78e3501d5a_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/rYPgtq)20150422_193922 (https://flic.kr/p/rYPgtq) by Velvet Spider (https://www.flickr.com/people/29540220@N05/), on Flickr
At the end of the the stub there is a little screw that holds the copper tongue, if you unsrew it you can remove the copper tongue and use your new C/W. To unscrew the tiny screw you either have to remove the arm or use a small bit and plyers.
Nice one, Ronald! There you are, Freddy, sorted :)
Marco.
How minute are you talking?
As the reports states in an example, a 1mm change in arm height will change SRA by 0.19 degree. Given that changes in arm height at the pivot end have considerably less influence than any geometric changes at the cartridge end, just think of the relatively enormous changes in SRA that will be created by even the smallest of warps or imperfections in a record, or the difference in thickness between records!
Your point about the thickness of records is valid, and so ideally, one should adjust VTA when switching between playing thin bog-standard vinyl, and say, 200g audiophile pressings, as the difference in thickness of records will alter VTA sufficiently for the effect to be audible. Sometimes I do, but most of the time, I simply set VTA for the best compromise between various vinyl thicknesses, and live with it. One can sometimes be too obsessive... ;)
However, I've heard notable changes in sound with incremental adjustments to VTA of as little as 0.5mm. In my experience, ALL adjustments on a T/T set-up have a significant impact on how faithfully music is reproduced: minute adjustments to azimuth, for example, where the headshell is tilted very, very slightly to one side or the other, can be the difference between no sibilance on 's' sounds, and the introduction of some, and with it, distortion.
Tiny incremental changes to VTF can be the difference between the cartridge possessing the ability to track 'difficult' passages of music on certain albums, as well as controlling whether the cartridge sounds bright, dull, or just right - in the exact same way as tonearm VTA, if notably 'out', can make the partnering cartridge sound forward and 'shouty', or muddy and bass-heavy.
In all honesty, and I mean no offence, if you can't hear any of that, then I really don't know quite what to say, as it should be immediately obvious to anyone with discerning ears and an ability to differentiate between what sounds right and what doesn't.
Marco.
keiron99
24-04-2015, 08:37
However, I've heard notable changes in sound with incremental adjustments to VTA of as little as 0.5mm.
So what you are saying is that you can hear when the SRA is adjusted by less than one tenth of one degree. Put it another way, a “variation” of about 0.001%. (Someone may care to check my maths...but either way it is a vanishingly small number.)
Really, that is an astonishing, exceptional talent (or curse).
In all honesty, and I mean no offence, if you can't hear any of that, then I really don't know quite what to say, as it should be immediately obvious to anyone with discerning ears and an ability to differentiate between what sounds right and what doesn't.
No offence taken, I feel blessed!
(I believe I am right in saying I am in the company of Rega's Roy Gandy on this matter so I don't feel too left out!)
Lol.... That's cool, as long as you're happy.
In terms of your first point. I hear what I hear. I don't give a jot about the maths :)
Marco.
keiron99
24-04-2015, 19:35
I got my Counterweight and spacers from Speedy Steve, they look great. but....I have a problem getting the bespoke C/W over a little nub/tongue thing (not sure what it's called) towards the end of the tonearm. I am hoping to not have to take the whole thing apart, and also fear that removing the little piece will prevent me from ever using the stock technics counterweight for lighter headshell/cart combos. here is a pic so you guys can see what i am talking about. thanks ahead a time for your help. https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7647/17051865290_78e3501d5a_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/rYPgtq)20150422_193922 (https://flic.kr/p/rYPgtq) by Velvet Spider (https://www.flickr.com/people/29540220@N05/), on Flickr
So was it established exactly what this little lump is?
Keiron,
On the inside of the stock counterweight, there is a swirl that goes from front to back. The lump/tongue glides thru as you adjust the C/W ......:scratch: I THINK??
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