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Audiosmile was a rubbish name anyway...
Spectral Morn
16-03-2015, 01:05
http://www.audio-forums.com/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=March
Audiosmile was a rubbish name anyway...
Awful place, my first audio forum experience, no place for a subjectivist, they treated me like the villagers chasing the Frankenstein monster. Admin and members mocked and trolled posts. Equally unethical re how lots of posts I deleted which the previous owner agreed to keep deleted were restored.
I came here and never looked back nor visited again. Frankly if it died and blew away as dust in the wind I would smile.
Sorry if that comes across as harsh but the degree of upset and stress these people caused me was awful, a pack of dogs would behave better. There were a few decent folks there but very much in the minority, most moved on too.
Regards Neil
fatmarley
16-03-2015, 06:59
they treated me like the villagers chasing the Frankenstein monster.
Glad to hear I wasn't the only one.
The worst I ever saw was on a photography forum (don't worry mods, I wont mention the name). I saw people getting picked on when they were already down in the dumps. One poor guy had all his gear nicked and was looking for some sympathy but he just got abused by everyone (I stuck up for him because I felt sorry for the poor chap).
jandl100
16-03-2015, 09:10
Frankly if it died and blew away as dust in the wind I would smile.
Very poetic. :lol:
-- yes, there were some really nasty characters there. I remember getting beat up and harassed by a particularly vile individual.
Good luck to Rob and Simon, the Audiosmile guys, as the forum is a TOTALLY different place now from the old Zerogain, which was, as has already been stated, a rabid hellhole, populated by arrogant, belligerent, self-serving sub-humans, behaving as geriatric ‘keyboard warriors’: everything I detest about most on-line forums, and a big reason why this place was born, as an antidote for such nastiness.
I’m currently a member of Rob and Simon’s place, so should post there sometimes, but in reality it just goes on the back burner, as helping run here takes up all my available forum posting time :)
Marco.
Never heard of the place tbh, but good to hear its been cleaned up Marco. This is the only forum I use.
There were a few, shall we say, ‘interesting’ forums around in those days, Grant.
The old Zerogain seemed to attract the nastiest characters from everywhere, particularly as Neil says, those who were incapable, in any way, of tolerating subjectivist audio opinions, and that included the management, so the ‘disease’ started from the top!
I remember it was a bloke called Michaelab, from Portugal, I think, who used to be in charge, and I had umpteen run-ins with him, before eventually being banned, but not before going down in a ‘blaze of glory’! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
nothing worse than humans behaving like a pack of dogs. As you say it always stems from the top.
Spectral Morn
16-03-2015, 12:13
Very poetic. :lol:
-- yes, there were some really nasty characters there. I remember getting beat up and harassed by a particularly vile individual.
And his number shall be 666, no doubt ;) Particularly vile individual.
Regards Neil
Ah yes, ‘The Devil’. I remember his tag-iine: ‘Here to help’. The irony was hilarious! :lol:
It should’ve read: ‘Here to help others justify and endorse my purchase decisions’….
Marco.
Spectral Morn
16-03-2015, 13:00
Yes, remember his tag-iine: ‘Here to help’. The irony was hilarious! :lol:
Marco.
Marco I try not to, as I say the stress and upset that experience caused was bad. I know alot of folks would say, ahh yes but its just the net, you need a harder skin etc. Well no its not just the net, what people say and do on the net has very real effects on people and that time there was simply awful. I was there trying to offer advice and informed opinion and well.... as I say the villagers wanted to burn me, for daring to say I could hear cable burn in etc.
I must confess I was somewhat nervous about joining here but reading over the forum before I joined I could see AOS was a very different proposition so joined and been here eversince.
Regards Neil
Beobloke
16-03-2015, 13:03
the villagers wanted to burn me, for daring to say I could hear cable burn in etc.
Quite right, too... ;) :D :ner:
I must confess I was somewhat nervous about joining here but reading over the forum before I joined I could see AOS was a very different proposition so joined and been here eversince.
Yeah, what was the name you first joined here with, as you were understandably quite cagey about joining another forum, and wanted to hide your identity? I forget now…
I understand how you felt at the time, but I was different: I battled to the death with the best of them, and simply wouldn’t allow the idiots to win!
My view was that it was better to be considered a ‘heretic’, and go down fighting, standing up for what you believe in and feel passionate about, than give into the antagonistic, blinkered and belligerent keyboard warriors, not to mention an ill-informed objectivist belief system that was considered then as the ‘accepted norm’.
Fook that!! :nono:
Marco.
Spectral Morn
16-03-2015, 13:28
Yeah, what was the name you first joined here with, as you were understandably quite cagey about joining another forum, and wanted to hide your identity? I forget now…
I understand how you felt at the time, but I was different: I battled to the death with the best of them, and simply wouldn’t allow the idiots to win!
My view was that it was better to be considered a ‘heretic’, and go down fighting, standing up for what you believe in and feel passionate about, than give into the antagonistic, blinkered and belligerent keyboard warriors, not to mention an ill-informed objectivist belief system that was considered then as the ‘accepted norm’.
Fook that!! :nono:
Marco.
I think at times my skin can be a bit too thin, but frankly I stuck it as long as I could and then left. The pain and argro of sticking it out would really require that individual to be somewhat of a masochist and that isn't me.
I think that first net name, should stay lost ;) but I was concerned that some of those there might have hounded me here. I was very ignorant of the net and the workings of forums in general, being still relatively new to using computers as well - I was a very late user of such. So my zerogain experience was a real baptism of fire.
Anyway history now and water under the bridge.
Regards Neil
Spectral Morn
16-03-2015, 13:38
Quite right, too... ;) :D :ner:
:D
regards Neil
nothing worse than humans behaving like a pack of dogs. As you say it always stems from the top.
:scratch: that description vaguely reminds me of another place in virtual space.
:scratch: that description vaguely reminds me of another place in virtual space.
Crufts online?
southall-1998
16-03-2015, 16:00
I can't stand that site. Boooooaring as ferk!
S.
It was awful - but not as bad as.... > moderated <
Not heard of it thankfully. I looked around here before joining and have had a welcoming experience... This is my main forum and it'll stay that way as I doubt there's another that could come close to the friendly members and help one receives on AOS
walpurgis
22-08-2016, 18:14
Yup. You're safe here mate. :)
:cool:
Yup. You're safe here mate. :)
The old Zerogain seemed fine to me, but then I'm genuinely easy-going and don't take forum politics too seriously. As for the objectivist bias, well most forums have such biases, reflecting the views of the owner(s)/mods, and if you're a committed objectivist who finds subjectivism irritating, or vice-versa, it's probably best not to prolong the agony and to find somewhere more suited to your own beliefs. Otherwise it's like going on to a veggie forum and wanting to discuss the best way to cook veal.
I completely agree, Joe, certainly with your latter sentiments.
The problem was that back then there wasn't the same choice of forums available from which to adopt that policy, and join the one that best suited your beliefs, as it were - and those that existed, to one degree or another, shared a rather similar 'outlook' :)
Marco.
pfm has always struck me as being quite 'broad church' in its approach; a bit Linn/Naim-centric in its early days, but embracing all varieties of audiophiles, from extreme subjectivist to equally extreme objectivist. The problem with that is the endless circular arguments that arise from time to time, akin to debates between atheists and believers.
In any case, I think the whole subjectivist/objectivist thing is often as much down to misunderstanding of the other person's POV as actual difference of opinion. There are very few at either extreme; i.e. objectivists who rely on measurements and don't do any listening to aid their choice of equipment, or subjectivists who believe that measurements count for nothing and that any difference they hear must be 'real'. Though of course the extremists do tend to be the most vocal!
StanleyB
23-08-2016, 12:24
In any case, I think the whole subjectivist/objectivist thing is often as much down to misunderstanding of the other person's POV as actual difference of opinion. There are very few at either extreme; i.e. objectivists who rely on measurements and don't do any listening to aid their choice of equipment, or subjectivists who believe that measurements count for nothing and that any difference they hear must be 'real'. Though of course the extremists do tend to be the most vocal!
There is a third way, which is the one that I follow and practise. And that is to get confirmation from more than one person that what you hear is also heard by others.
I got a piece of audio gear in my office that has a particular fault. The fault cannot be measured, or seen on a scope. But it can be clearly heard. I am more than happy to let anyone with the right skills and equipment have a go on it and come up with a method how to measure this particular fault condition.
pfm has always struck me as being quite 'broad church' in its approach; a bit Linn/Naim-centric in its early days, but embracing all varieties of audiophiles, from extreme subjectivist to equally extreme objectivist.
I like pfm, and agree that the above is an accurate summary of the status quo now, which is why it's the only other forum, apart from this one, which I regularly read.
However, it wasn't always like that until Tony culled the activity of some 'age-old' trolls, who used to poison the forum with their belligerent agendas, determined to be nothing other than irritants - and many of whom, 'back in the day', shared dual membership with Zerogain, thus creating a rather unpleasant atmosphere on both forums for folks with an opinion contrary to the 'accepted norm', and which they weren't afraid to voice! ;)
The 'accepted norm' (read as mantra) then often being: 'If you can't measure it, then it indisputably doesn't exist', and if you believed otherwise, you were a fool. That was the (rigidly held) view of the majority - or certainly the controlling majority/clique, whose opinions were considered then by those who ran the forums to be the most 'worthy' or important.
It's certainly how it was on the old Zerogain, and others and I became victims of that rather blinkered attitude and the toxic atmosphere it created, especially if like me, you stood up for yourself and didn't allow the worst offenders to get their own way... Ultimately though, due to the biased nature of the moderators, who would protect the interests of the clique at all costs, there was only ever going to be one winner - and it wasn't us!
Hence why this place was born, to provide a safe haven for happy, friendly, well-mannered and open-minded people (not just subjectivists) to discuss hi-fi and music, in a challenging, but chilled-out environment :)
Marco.
I like pfm too - it's as Joe describes.
100% Analogue
There is a third way, which is the one that I follow and practise. And that is to get confirmation from more than one person that what you hear is also heard by others.
I got a piece of audio gear in my office that has a particular fault. The fault cannot be measured, or seen on a scope. But it can be clearly heard. I am more than happy to let anyone with the right skills and equipment have a go on it and come up with a method how to measure this particular fault condition.
Indeed, Stan, which is why it's a fallacy to believe that every phenomenon that exists to man can *currently* be measured. Correction - it probably can, but you first need to know what exactly it is you're measuring, how to measure it, and what to measure it with, which can be easier said than done!
That's why I used to fight those fuckers, tooth and nail, even if my contrary views clashed with their 'scientific belief system', which I knew would eventually end up in my banning, simply because I knew that I was right - and you've provided a valid example of where I was coming from.
Of course all of us have the capacity for imagining what we hear - there is no argument there whatsoever, but being TOLD, in no uncertain terms that I was, and often also ridiculed, without conclusive proof I actually had 'imagined' what I'd heard, by an arrogant Internet entity, simply because what I was reporting didn't fit with his 'world view', is one sure way of waving a red rag at a bull - and with the inevitable consequences...! ;)
Marco.
I like pfm too - it's as Joe describes.
Yes, since 'Blzebub' and some of his cronies were at last shown the door (including the most rabidly intransigent types, with a penchant for a circular argument over the same old shit) ;)
It was those idiots I used to always clash with, as we were quite simply, polar opposites! Po-faced, snooty 'science-types'/computer geeks and I rarely get on.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
23-08-2016, 13:24
I still very very strongly disagree with you on this Marco and always will.... just in case anyone thought I'd "mellowed" ;) I just tend to keep it to myself more than in the past to erm...avoid trouble...
That absolutely fine, mate (and ditto).
It's about accepting that it's one of those topics where it's simply best to 'agree to disagree' and move on, as neither of us are liable ever to 'convince' the other that they're wrong... It's called pre-empting a completely pointless and circular argument! ;)
There are, however, other things that we do very much agree on... At the end of the day, it's about accepting that none of us knows everything, and that there are always new things to learn - and not just in audio :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
23-08-2016, 13:32
That absolutely fine, mate (and ditto).
It's about accepting that it's one of those topics where it's simply best to 'agree to disagree' and move on, as neither of us are liable ever to 'convince' the other that they're wrong... It's called pre-empting a completely pointless and circular argument! ;)
There are, however, other things that we do very much agree on...
Marco.
Very true! :)
I almost joined that forum simply to ask this question "how do you measure for soundstage depth" but thought better of it :rolleyes:
walpurgis
23-08-2016, 23:01
"how do you measure for soundstage depth"
Can it be done though? I doubt it. The perception would be a subjective thing surely? :)
Doubt it could be exactly but probably explained why in general... Soundstage and width are interesting concepts, and depend on people and rooms, plus how far you are from the sound etc, etc. you can often change from depth to width by changing toe in.
Arkless Electronics
23-08-2016, 23:08
I almost joined that forum simply to ask this question "how do you measure for soundstage depth" but thought better of it :rolleyes:
I may put that on a plaque above my bench.... Very good question! I think we're getting there as far as knowing how to design gear that is more likely to give good depth to the soundfield, but measure it.. not yet.
I just wish I had the erm.. resources.. to be able to devote my time to working on things like just that but, sadly, the wolf must be kept at bay..
walpurgis
23-08-2016, 23:34
But you don't believe in 'subjectively judged' stuff (yet) Jez :D.
One can possibly measure what one thinks we should hear (or not hear), but there's no way of quantifying what we actually do perceive. And I suspect this will always be a grey area.
...which is why, for non-builders of equipment, it's best just to trust your ears and instincts (the poor fallible things that they are), and be done with it! ;)
Marco.
But you don't believe in 'subjectively judged' stuff (yet) Jez :D.
One can possibly measure what one thinks we should hear (or not hear), but there's no way of quantifying what we actually do perceive. And I suspect this will always be a grey area.
This is why I joined AoS, I can share what I hear without being asked to back up my findings :)
This is why I joined AoS, I can share what I hear without being asked to back up my findings :)
Can you prove that statement?;)
walpurgis
24-08-2016, 09:56
Yes. We require reams of substantive data to support any observations! :D
This is why I joined AoS, I can share what I hear without being asked to back up my findings :)
Nice one, Oliver.
I think being politely asked to back up your findings is fine, should one be willing to do such, as some evidence helps add credibility to statements being made.
However, being *demanded* to produce such by rather arrogant and intolerant individuals, who are all too ready to rudely dismiss one's valid findings as 'nonsense', in the absence of such evidence, simply because what's being reported doesn't fit with the scientific belief system, is another matter entirely.
It's the latter I abhor, which indeed is responsible for causing countless nasty arguments and fallouts on forums, and as such will ensure it never infects AoS in that way :)
Marco.
Yes. We require reams of substantive data to support any observations! :D
Yesh, and lots and lots of graphs and squiggly lines, whilst sporting a nice wee double-blind mask, white lab-coat, and what looks like a rather protuberant appendage! :lol:
Marco.
walpurgis
24-08-2016, 10:16
Anybody suggesting that ears can be trusted will be pilloried and publicly flogged. :eek: ;)
...and some will undoubtedly enjoy that just a little too much... ;)
:whippin: :whippin:
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
24-08-2016, 10:29
But you don't believe in 'subjectively judged' stuff (yet) Jez :D.
One can possibly measure what one thinks we should hear (or not hear), but there's no way of quantifying what we actually do perceive. And I suspect this will always be a grey area.
I've always believed in subjective testing along with objective testing, as I've said dozens of times What I VERY STRONGLY disagree with is blithely believing in and giving credence to things which are simply impossible... just because one thinks one has heard a difference. So for example cable burn in, mains cables etc are things I dismiss as the rantings of the gullible/those searching for something to believe in, in the way some believe in healing crystals etc. Funny how none of these airy fairy ideas have anything to do with actual engineering isn't it.... All of them have the link of being something that those with zero engineering knowledge can "fit" in seconds or minutes....
This sort of thing debases the pursuit of high fidelity sound reproduction. It has no more intellectual credence than claiming that leaving a half empty cup of a certain brand of coffee on top of the amp improves the sound....
I refrain these days from jumping on every request to "recommend a good mains cable" by yelling at them that they're deluded if they think that any of that guff is in any way true... but only to avoid conflict and stick to the erm... ethos of the site...
walpurgis
24-08-2016, 10:34
leaving a half empty cup of a certain brand of coffee on top of the amp improves the sound....
Does that work? Which brand? :D
I actually agree with some of your views Jez, but not all of them. :)
Arkless Electronics
24-08-2016, 10:50
Does that work? Which brand? :D
I actually agree with some of your views Jez, but not all of them. :)
Mellow Birds can sooth a harsh top end:ner:
My "views" are the same as all professors of physics, electronic text books and the same electronic theory that gave us radio, the internet and put man on the moon.... Now am I going to stick with these "views" or believe some hi fi enthusiast who couldn't put a DIN plug on and after maybe a few glasses of vino reckons he can hear things which cannot exist and which go against the laws of physics?
I actually agree with some of your views Jez, but not all of them. :)
Same here.
What Jez needs to learn, with all due respect to him, is to portray his views (as that's all they are) in a less dogmatic/absolutist way, and refrain from telling people that certain things are "impossible", simply because 'science says so', when science currently doesn't conclusively know the answers to everything that we genuinely experience in life.
If he did that, he'd get on much better on forums, and perhaps succeed in educating others in matters where learning would be genuinely beneficial ;)
The scientific process is a moving object, which evolves with our human experiences, not a rigid entity to be endorsed, unquestioningly, as some form of 'facts bible'.
Marco.
Firebottle
24-08-2016, 11:12
.... white lab-coat, :lol:.
I've got dirty white lab coat, does that fit the bill?
It does if you look sexy in it! :D
Marco.
Mellow Birds can sooth a harsh top end:ner:
My "views" are the same as all professors of physics, electronic text books and the same electronic theory that gave us radio, the internet and put man on the moon.... Now am I going to stick with these "views" or believe some hi fi enthusiast who couldn't put a DIN plug on and after maybe a few glasses of vino reckons he can hear things which cannot exist and which go against the laws of physics?
The difference is that landing on the moon doesn't work just because you think it does. There is no internal process. You either land safely or you crash.
With the appreciation of recorded music a good chunk of it is internal. 'We believe we are getting a good sound' and 'we are getting a good sound' are the same statement. So if I hook up a box of say, cat litter and coat hangers, and hear an improvement then there is an improvment, ipso facto.
Whether there has actually been an objective, independant improvement is irrelevant. This hobby is one of few where science and art seperate and yet remain equally valid. You can't apply the same rationale to, say, model plane building, since the designs that don't work objectively will just crash into the ground.
Arkless Electronics
24-08-2016, 11:56
Same here.
What Jez needs to learn, with all due respect to him, is to portray his views (as that's all they are) in a less dogmatic/absolutist way, and refrain from telling people that certain things are "impossible", simply because 'science says so', when science currently doesn't conclusively know the answers to everything that we genuinely experience in life.
If he did that, he'd get on much better on forums, and perhaps succeed in educating others in matters where learning would be genuinely beneficial ;)
The scientific process is a moving object, which evolves with our human experiences, not a rigid entity to be endorsed, unquestioningly, as some form of 'facts bible'.
Marco.
The difference is that landing on the moon doesn't work just because you think it does. There is no internal process. You either land safely or you crash.
With the appreciation of recorded music a good chunk of it is internal. 'We believe we are getting a good sound' and 'we are getting a good sound' are the same statement. So if I hook up a box of say, cat litter and coat hangers, and hear an improvement then there is an improvment, ipso facto.
Whether there has actually been an objective, independant improvement is irrelevant. This hobby is one of few where science and art seperate and yet remain equally valid. You can't apply the same rationale to, say, model plane building, since the designs that don't work objectively will just crash into the ground.
As you will no doubt guess gentlemen, I couldn't possibly disagree more strongly with both of you....
I will never stop saying certain things are impossible and will never say laws of physics are "just my view"!
As may or may not be obvious, I am NOT in this for the money! The main way to have a small fortune out of hi fi is to start with a large one:D
If I was in it for the money I would sycophantically agree with all and sundry and do anything to not rock the boat... as all the other traders do:D I would then produce gear with 3% distortion and inaccurate RIAA.... just to give a bit of extra heft in the bass and round off the top a little so harsh recordings sound more acceptable... plenty of manufacturers do just this and they tend to be the most popular and well reviewed.
My aim is to produce accurate hi fi equipment. Not "NICE" sounding hi fi equipment. That should be up the recording and what's on it... not added as an extra ingredient by the false presentation of the equipment. As I've said before I believe some folks are so far out in what they believe to be good sound that I think they should buy a graphic equaliser and digital reverb to add to their systems.... they can then make it sound as "nice" as they want! They'll probably claim to hear an improvement from changing the fuse in the graphic eq mains plug of course... even though there are another 6 fuses inside it :lol:
As you will no doubt guess gentlemen, I couldn't possibly disagree more strongly with both of you....
I will never stop saying certain things are impossible and will never say laws of physics are "just my view"!
:
My point was that the laws of physics do not take into account the human mind. Which is why hi-fi is not the same as landing on the moon and a diferent understanding of the processes involved are required.
My mother had terrible arthritis to the extent that she could not raise her arms above her head without intense pain. She bought one of those copper bracelets from Boots and has never suffered since. Now the laws of physics say the bracelet cannot possibly work in any objective way. But subjectively it solved the problem. Hi-fi is no different.
Nothing more dangerous than a closed mind. Pity they dont come with closed mouths. .... Just a couple of quotes that come to me..
Oh yes,,, Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.
― Isaac Asimov
:eyebrows:
Arkless Electronics
24-08-2016, 12:36
My mind is open to concepts of genuine merit but resolutely and proudly closed to hogwash such as healing crystals, homoeopathy, religion and witch doctors... and I really couldn't give a toss what anyone else thinks... that's their prerogative.
Anybody suggesting that ears can be trusted will be pilloried and publicly flogged. :eek: ;)
:lol: The only measuring equipment I own is a DB app on my phone, all my coats are black, only science I was good at was human biology, so public flogging for me then !!
My point was that the laws of physics do not take into account the human mind.
Indeed, which is precisely why in some respects its core principles are too 'broad brush' to be successfully applied to the psychoacoustic aspects of audio, which don't automatically conform to those laws. Is it any wonder then why there are so many claims of stuff being heard that can't be measured? And not ALL of it is 'imagined'! ;)
The fact is, if you're using the wrong 'tool' for the job, as it were, how can hope to prove what does or doesn't exist?
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
24-08-2016, 15:36
My point was that the laws of physics do not take into account the human mind. Which is why hi-fi is not the same as landing on the moon and a diferent understanding of the processes involved are required.
My mother had terrible arthritis to the extent that she could not raise her arms above her head without intense pain. She bought one of those copper bracelets from Boots and has never suffered since. Now the laws of physics say the bracelet cannot possibly work in any objective way. But subjectively it solved the problem. Hi-fi is no different.
It's called the placebo effect and yes it can have amazing effects on the human mind! It completely explains why people believe they hear improvements from mains cables, hifi fuses etc. I'm sure that to them the improvement is real, that's how strong placebo effect can be. It does not mean though that the mains cable actually is improving the sound (it can't), only that a psychoacoustic placebo effect is causing the listener to "imagine", "believe" call it what you like, that it is improved.
If you were to switch back to the "ordinary" cable without them knowing it then I guess the improvement from the new cable would continue to be heard until they realised the cables had been switched!
It's called the placebo effect and yes it can have amazing effects on the human mind! It completely explains why people believe they hear improvements from mains cables, hifi fuses etc.
No it doesn't. It's a recognised psychological phenomenon that *sometimes* explains why people hear what they hear.
It doesn't completely or indisputably explain why they may genuinely hear certain things (such as sonic improvements from the use of mains cables, designed for high-fidelity applications), which superficially seem 'scientifically unprovable'.
See my last post (60). It's all too easy sometimes playing the placebo-effect card, rather than analysing properly what else may more accurately explain what's going on ;)
However, Jez, we're in danger of once again entering the realms of a pointless circular argument..........
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
24-08-2016, 15:54
No it doesn't. It's a recognised psychological phenomenon that *sometimes* explains why people hear what they hear. It doesn't completely or indisputably explain why people genuinely hear certain things that superficially seem scientifically unprovable.
See my last post (60). However, Jez, we're in danger of once again entering the realms of a pointless circular argument..........
Marco.
On that we can agree :) I very nearly came back and edited my post to say the same to you!
Lol... It doesn't mean that we can't debate the subject now and then though, as long as we both realise when to back off and simply 'agree to disagree'. There's a point reached in any debate where the parties involved arguing further achieves nothing but arguing for arguing's sake.
Well-adjusted adults tend to know when that point is, and act accordingly :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
24-08-2016, 16:23
Lol... It doesn't mean that we can't debate the subject now and then though, as long as we both realise when to back off and simply 'agree to disagree'. There's a point reached in any debate where the parties involved arguing further achieves nothing but arguing for arguing's sake.
Well-adjusted adults tend to know when that point is, and act accordingly :)
Marco.
Indeed. It's only a stereo:)
One thing I did learn in human biology, is that our hearing is not linear, so for example, the frequency response that we hear from our systems may measure nice & flat, but would not be perceived as flat if we listened at low volume.
This, together with our perception of a 3d soundstage (even from mono recordings :scratch: ), and our ability to suspend belief (is Sade really in my room :eyebrows:), separates us from machines.
It's called the placebo effect and yes it can have amazing effects on the human mind! It completely explains why people believe they hear improvements from mains cables, hifi fuses etc. I'm sure that to them the improvement is real, that's how strong placebo effect can be. It does not mean though that the mains cable actually is improving the sound (it can't), only that a psychoacoustic placebo effect is causing the listener to "imagine", "believe" call it what you like, that it is improved.
This is where we differ as I think there is a possibility that the bracelet does more than act as a placebo. I don't believe, or commit, one way or the other, I just accept that it may be the case that there are things going on that we don't understand (yet). The history of science is littered with examples of this.
This, together with our perception of a 3d soundstage (even from mono recordings :scratch: ), and our ability to suspend belief (is Sade really in my room :eyebrows:), separates us from machines.
Indeed, Oliver.
The problem is that some folk seek to shun the instincts that they were born with to such a degree, fretting over what might or might not be 'fooling' them, that they may as well be machines! ;)
Marco.
That (copper)seems to work for a lot of folk with diagnosed arthritis. Not tried it myself as i dont think they do hip ones lol.
A good way to stop a woman crying is to perform the himlich manover on them.......:eyebrows:
I just accept that it may be the case that there are things going on that we don't understand (yet). The history of science is littered with examples of this.
In terms of the first bit, I don't think that anyone who claims to possess a genuinely open and inquisitive mind could argue with that.
The second bit is an undeniable truism, but bizarrely according to some, the subject of audio, and how the human brain interprets musical information, is already a 'done deal', fully covered by the laws of physics, and so is excluded from further investigation or knowledge being applied to it :hmm:
Marco.
A good way to stop a woman crying is to perform the himlich manover on them.......:eyebrows:
Another way to shut them up is to fill their gob with something big and thick :D
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
24-08-2016, 17:24
Indeed, Oliver.
The problem is that some folk seek to shun the instincts that they were born with to such a degree, fretting over what might or might not be 'fooling' them, that they may as well be machines! ;)
Marco.
Ah but if you properly understood the workings of the average power supply it would become abundantly obvious to you that a change of mains cable cannot change the sound....
I guess you would claim that by understanding it to the point that this is obvious to me I am closing my mind to other things :D ... whereas I would claim that although I'm sure people genuinely believe it to sound better it can all be put down to placebo effect/expectation bias;) Placebo effect has been proved to be so strong that people with genuine illnesses have been cured by it! The belief that the pill really is some new high tech pharmaceutical wonder gives them hope, increases their "inner fight" and may reduce stress levels (they believe they are now on the way to being cured). All this in itself helps recovery...
That (copper)seems to work for a lot of folk with diagnosed arthritis. Not tried it myself as i dont think they do hip ones lol.
A good way to stop a woman crying is to perform the himlich manover on them.......:eyebrows:
Unfortunately I have arthritis in BOTH hips, I find a TENS machine works, while listening to my system of course.
Another way to shut them up is to fill their gob with something big and thick :D
Marco.
Lol, tried that once (only once !!!) but my elbow could not fit :lol:
walpurgis
24-08-2016, 17:42
Another way to shut them up is to fill their gob with something big and thick :D
Marco.
Cucumber? :)
Ah but if you properly understood the workings of the average power supply it would become abundantly obvious to you that a change of mains cable cannot change the sound....
I guess you would claim that by understanding it to the point that this is obvious to me I am closing my mind to other things :D ... whereas I would claim that although I'm sure people genuinely believe it to sound better it can all be put down to placebo effect/expectation bias;) Placebo effect has been proved to be so strong that people with genuine illnesses have been cured by it! The belief that the pill really is some new high tech pharmaceutical wonder gives them hope, increases their "inner fight" and may reduce stress levels (they believe they are now on the way to being cured). All this in itself helps recovery...
The effects that stress has on the human body is nigh on impossible to quantify, and how our brains react is still a mystery afaik.
Ever tried to play your tunes after a bad day at the office ? I have to give up sometimes cos my perception is my system sounds s**t & I need to upgrade something !!!
Ah but if you properly understood the workings of the average power supply it would become abundantly obvious to you that a change of mains cable cannot change the sound....
I can assure you that wouldn't matter a jot if my ears and experience contradicted the supposed 'facts', especially when 20+ years of experimenting with audio cables, of both the signal and mains variety, have invariably and repeatedly demonstrated clear sonic differences between numerous various types! ;)
I guess you would claim that by understanding it to the point that this is obvious to me I am closing my mind to other things :D
Yes I think that's an unfortunate by-product of you mistakenly considering that all there is to know in that area is already known. It may be in an electrical sense, but not as far as psychoacoustics are concerned. For me, that's your big mistake, as I'm convinced that's where some of the answers to the seemingly "impossible" can be found.
whereas I would claim that although I'm sure people genuinely believe it to sound better it can all be put down to placebo effect/expectation bias. Placebo effect has been proved to be so strong that people with genuine illnesses have been cured by it!
I don't dispute that in the slightest. What I dispute, most vehemently, is that the placebo effect explains every single area of audio reproduction, including crucially how the brain processes sonic/musical information, not covered by the laws of physics, and in every instance when someone reports hearing something that superficially seems 'scientifically unprovable'.
For me, at best, that's just lazy thinking, at worst arrogant dogma.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
24-08-2016, 17:59
I can assure you that wouldn't matter a jot if my ears and experience contradicted the supposed 'facts', especially when 20+ years of experimenting with audio cables, of both the signal and mains variety, have invariably and repeatedly demonstrated clear sonic differences between numerous various types! ;)
Yes I think that's an unfortunate by-product of you mistakenly considering that all there is to know in that area is already known. It may be in an electrical sense, but not as far as psychoacoustics are concerned. For me, that's your big mistake, as I'm convinced that's where some of the answers to the seemingly "impossible" can be found.
I don't dispute that in the slightest. What I dispute, most vehemently, is that the placebo effect explains every single area of audio reproduction, including crucially how the brain processes sonic/musical information, not covered by the laws of physics, and in every instance when someone reports hearing something that superficially seems 'scientifically unprovable'.
For me, at best, that's just lazy thinking, at worst arrogant dogma.
Marco.
It may surprise you but I agree with that!... In general. As I have said several times before there are areas of subjective experience where I can't begin to explain it but I definitely hear it. Sound stage is one. However, these areas are ones where hugely complicated and stochastic phenomena are occurring and the likelihood of such "unexplained" things is pretty high! There are other areas where it is obvious that the likelihood of any perceived differences being real is minute...
Arkless Electronics
24-08-2016, 18:04
The effects that stress has on the human body is nigh on impossible to quantify, and how our brains react is still a mystery afaik.
Ever tried to play your tunes after a bad day at the office ? I have to give up sometimes cos my perception is my system sounds s**t & I need to upgrade something !!!
Very true! I've also had days when I've switched the hi fi on, after being blown away by it the previous evening, and thought "that sounds shite! What was I imagining last night?!"... even though I've done nothing at all to change it in the mean time... Mood? stress? air pressure? relative humidity? 4pints/sober?:scratch::eek:
Just had a cigar in my garden, with Bob Marley playing (my neighbours love Bob so no probs there), closed my eyes & I was in Jamaica :D
Beautiful weather, a glass of Rum & I was in heaven for 30 mins :)
No stress, just cool man !
It doesn't get better than this does it ?
Arkless Electronics
24-08-2016, 18:56
Just had a cigar in my garden, with Bob Marley playing (my neighbours love Bob so no probs there), closed my eyes & I was in Jamaica :D
Beautiful weather, a glass of Rum & I was in heaven for 30 mins :)
No stress, just cool man !
It doesn't get better than this does it ?
Well said that man:)
A "cigar" always go well with Bob Marley :eyebrows:
Lol,
Could never get used to the "other" stuff ;)
It may surprise you but I agree with that!... In general. As I have said several times before there are areas of subjective experience where I can't begin to explain it but I definitely hear it. Sound stage is one. However, these areas are ones where hugely complicated and stochastic phenomena are occurring and the likelihood of such "unexplained" things is pretty high! There are other areas where it is obvious that the likelihood of any perceived differences being real is minute...
Minute, perhaps, but still possible, and perhaps explained by 'thinking outside of the box' in a way one hasn't considered before. However, I'm glad that we agree on the bit in bold. The difference is, for you it's soundstage and me its mains cables! ;)
Seriously though, Jez, when it comes to hi-fi, I'll always trust my experience and instincts more than any measurements or supposed 'scientific facts', purely because I've more often than not been *very well rewarded for doing so*. Therefore, it makes sense to keep repeating for you what works!
Look at it this way, mate: if you've successfully built a hi-fi system that to your ears (and those of many others who've heard it) sounds absolutely fantastic, and many others similar to that in the past, 95% without relying on any objective form of science, and indeed flying in the face of the supposedly "impossible", why should you change tact and disrupt a 'winning formula'? :)
Marco.
A "cigar" always go well with Bob Marley :eyebrows:
Yeah, man... Ya needs some propa qualitee 'erbs :peace:
:eyebrows:
Marco.
N
See my last post (60). It's all too easy sometimes playing the placebo-effect card, rather than analysing properly what else may more accurately explain what's going on ;)
The trouble is that non-techy types like you and me can't analyse what else may more accurately explain what's going on. We're only able to say we can hear a difference/improvement; as soon as we attempt to explain the reasons for the difference/improvement, we're out of our technical depth, or are reduced to guesswork.
walpurgis
24-08-2016, 20:20
You don't have to guess that something sounds better (or worse). I'm hyper critical of changes in sound with my Hi-Fi and hear the difference whenever I subsititute items, even digital interconnects (yes, those do affect the sound believe it or not).
The trouble is that non-techy types like you and me can't analyse what else may more accurately explain what's going on. We're only able to say we can hear a difference/improvement; as soon as we attempt to explain the reasons for the difference/improvement, we're out of our technical depth, or are reduced to guesswork.
Indeed, which is why we say bollocks to all that and just use our ears! ;)
The 'analysing what else may more accurately explain what's going on' thing was aimed at those of a technical disposition, in terms of asking them to do that instead of automatically playing the placebo-effect card, when what's being reported subjectively by someone doesn't *appear* to fit with their knowledge of science.
I'm simply asking them to consider 'digging deeper' and thinking outside the box for a possible valid explanation, out with of what's heard simply being imagined. Trotting out the same answer (using 'audiophile mains leads' as an example) as a universal explanation for effects heard hundreds of times, by hundreds of different people (if not thousands), doesn't strike me as particularly thorough or clever.
Marco.
You don't have to guess that something sounds better (or worse). I'm hyper critical of changes in sound with my Hi-Fi and hear the difference whenever I subsititute items, even digital interconnects (yes, those do affect the sound believe it or not).
I'm not saying that you can't hear a difference; I'm saying that a non-techy type would be hard-pressed to analyse or explain why there's a difference. Put it another way. Let's suppose your amplifier goes wrong. Once you've eliminated obvious easy-to-fix problems, you don't (or I don't, anyway) attempt to analyse the reason for the failure; you get someone qualified to look at the amp and, hopefully, fix it.
Indeed, which is why we say bollocks to all that and just use our ears! ;)
The 'analysing what else may more accurately explain what's going on' thing was aimed at those of a technical disposition, in terms of asking them to do that instead of automatically playing the placebo-effect card, when what's being reported subjectively by someone doesn't *appear* fit with their knowledge of science.
Marco.
OK. But we know how this plays.
Subjectivist: I can hear a difference
Techy type: There should be no difference; however, let's do some A/B blind testing first to determine that you are actually hearing, rather than imagining you're hearing a difference, before we start re-writing the science textbooks
Subjectivist: A/B tests are boring and stressful and I cannot be arsed doing them. I just wanna listen to some choons!
Tech type: Whatever.
I'm not saying that you can't hear a difference; I'm saying that a non-techy type would be hard-pressed to analyse or explain why there's a difference. Put it another way. Let's suppose your amplifier goes wrong. Once you've eliminated obvious easy-to-fix problems, you don't (or I don't, anyway) attempt to analyse the reason for the failure; you get someone qualified to look at the amp and, hopefully, fix it.
Your reducing it to technical or non-technical. When technical ability/knowledge is a sliding scale from those who don't understand and don't want to understand through to the people who design and build (and repair) the kit. I like a broad front advance so I try to learn about the technical side as well, even though I like to listen for myself before I'm personally convinced.
Your reducing it to technical or non-technical. When technical ability/knowledge is a sliding scale from those who don't understand and don't want to understand through to the people who design and build (and repair) the kit. I like a broad front advance so I try to learn about the technical side as well, even though I like to listen for myself before I'm personally convinced.
I try with the science stuff, I really do, but after a couple of pages a drowsy numbness pains my senses, as though of hemlock I had drunk.
walpurgis
24-08-2016, 20:40
Some may be persuaded, but I don't need blind testing to hear differences, nor do I need anybody telling me I may be imagining them.
My excellent sounding system is the product of me having faith in my ears and judgement. So there!! :lol:
fatmarley
24-08-2016, 20:47
You don't have to guess that something sounds better (or worse). I'm hyper critical of changes in sound with my Hi-Fi and hear the difference whenever I subsititute items, even digital interconnects (yes, those do affect the sound believe it or not).
That's because you know the sound of your system inside out.
I've heard unfamiliar systems in other peoples houses and struggled to hear the difference between amplifier changes, even though the owner could obviously hear a big difference (I felt a bit embarrassed to be honest).
My Cambridge Audio AM1 sounds nothing like my Onix OA21 amp in my system, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if some people couldn't hear a difference until I actually point out the differences (biggest difference is probably the thicker sounding lower mid of the CA AM1 and less control over the lower frequencies).
OK. But we know how this plays.
Subjectivist: I can hear a difference
Techy type: There should be no difference; however, let's do some A/B blind testing first to determine that you are actually hearing, rather than imagining you're hearing a difference, before we start re-writing the science textbooks
Subjectivist: A/B tests are boring and stressful and I cannot be arsed doing them. I just wanna listen to some choons!
Tech type: Whatever.
...which is why it's important to know when to say: 'Let's just agree to disagree and move on'! Circular arguments are completely pointless, and on forums especially, an utter waste of bandwidth.
The main point I'm making, Joe, is that I'd like to see more in-depth analysis from 'objectivists' (since they're the ones best equipped to carry it out) as to why 1000s of audio enthusiasts over the years have claimed hearing sonic differences between mains leads, etc, other than just *automatically* blaming it on the placebo effect, or some other form of the brain being fooled.
Don't get me wrong, it's likely that half of the time (or more) that's exactly what *is* happening. However, I don't believe for one moment that it's a valid explanation for *every* time it happens. For me, there exists a large enough body of collective experiences to date, which forms sufficient evidence that something other than that is going on.
Let's see more evidence of genuinely inquisitive minds at work, from the 'science bods'/'cable disbelievers', and less presumptive/lazy thinking, is my view, if we're ever going to learn anything new, other than simply appeasing what best fits with our 'world view'.
Marco.
I try with the science stuff, I really do, but after a couple of pages a drowsy numbness pains my senses, as though of hemlock I had drunk.
I also struggle. I can at best hope for a limited grasp, but better than nothing.
I gave up bothering with people who dont want to know years ago tbh. Its up to them, and their loss. I dont think I get fooled too often, and I do get second opinions.
Some may be persuaded, but I don't need blind testing to hear differences, nor do I need anybody telling me I may be imagining them.
My excellent sounding system is the product of me having faith in my ears and judgement. So there!! :lol:
Ditto! :thumbsup: ;)
Marco.
I gave up bothering with people who dont want to know years ago tbh. Its up to them, and their loss. I dont think I get fooled too often, and I do get second opinions.
Same here, mate.
I look at it this way: owning a quality hi-fi system for me is ALL about hearing my favourite music at its best, therefore achieving the best sound quality is paramount - for me nothing else matters more. I couldn't give a hoot if it's an objectivist's wet dream for 'accuracy' or not.
My system certainly doesn't act as some form of glorified lab apparatus. It exists to reproduce MUSIC to MY sonic satisfaction. I also learn from those who can successfully demonstrate that they're able to assemble a superb sounding system, either by rigidly following the laws of physics, or using their ears and instincts.
So......... If I go to the homes of twenty of each 'types' of people, and the overwhelming majority of one of those types for me have succeeded to build far better sounding systems, using my judgement criteria for such, than the other, then who should I listen to or take advice from?
For me, it's a complete waste of time obeying the laws of physics to the letter, or wanking over measurements, if it results in creating a mediocre or uninspiring sounding hi-fi system!
And I can tell you that, to date, the systems I've heard belonging to so-called 'objectivists' have left me rather cold to say the least - and trust me, that's NOT because they're more 'accurate' ;) That, and the results I've achieved with building my own system, using purely a subjective approach, suggests that those of us who trust our instincts and judgement are doing something right.
Now, if it had been the other way round, or ever becomes that way in future, then I might listen more to the 'science bods' and those telling me that I'm imagining things by considering that 'mains leads designed for high-fidelity applications' (as I prefer to call them) make a difference, but for now, I'll happily live in the land of my 'delusions'!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Quite right too... good post
montesquieu
24-08-2016, 22:01
Classic thread this, three pages on topic then seven on the placebo effect (or non-effect).
Can't say I ever took to zerogain/audiosmile in any of its incarnations. Pfm discussions tend to be a bit too linnie/naimee for me to feel like joining in, though I might have enjoyed it 20 years ago when that was the world I lived in too. Friendly enough bunch though and great classifieds.
nothing worse than humans behaving like a pack of dogs. As you say it always stems from the top.
Remids me of somewhere in particular.
My "views" are the same as all professors of physics, electronic text books and the same electronic theory that gave us radio, the internet and put man on the moon.... Now am I going to stick with these "views" or believe some hi fi enthusiast who couldn't put a DIN plug on and after maybe a few glasses of vino reckons he can hear things which cannot exist and which go against the laws of physics?
Nah, it'll never catch on.
walpurgis
24-08-2016, 22:02
Quite right too... good post
+1
It's rather satisfying having one's 'delusions' leading one to be able to put together a great sounding system ;).
My "views" are the same as all professors of physics, electronic text books and the same electronic theory that gave us radio, the internet and put man on the moon.... Now am I going to stick with these "views" or believe some hi fi enthusiast who couldn't put a DIN plug on and after maybe a few glasses of vino reckons he can hear things which cannot exist and which go against the laws of physics?
Nah, it'll never catch on.
Lol.... Thing is though, Tom, just because people exist who are clever enough to do all of those things Jez mentions doesn't automatically mean that they (or him) are any better judges than you or I are of what constitutes as a 'good sound', or most closely represents the sound of a real instrument, in terms of what's reproduced in that respect by a hi-fi system - and what role 'mains leads designed for hi-fi applications' play in that.
There is no 'definitive data' for such, thus no-one can be an 'expert'. That is FACT. Therefore, in such matters, all opinions are equal.
Like I said before, if all those folks mentioned were still alive and owned quality hi-fi systems, and I visited them and listened to their systems, and to my ears they sounded shit, then it wouldn't matter a jot what their academic talents or achievements were. *That* is the point!
I'm not 'impressed' by what I don't consider in a particular context as important. Now, if I wanted advice on physics or electronics theory, for a project I was doing on those subjects, or how to build a space rocket, then that would be different, but is 'Professor Percy' of physics a better judge of what kind of sound I like than me? I think not.
And hey, perhaps if said 'Professor Percy' was into hi-fi, he'd be able to hear (and acknowledge) the differences between various type of mains leads, so Jez, based on what he said, would subsequently be sharing the same views! :D
Oh, and whether or not you can wire a DIN plug is no automatic arbiter for having a good pair of ears. It really pisses me off when only those who can demonstrate practical skills are considered as having any kind of ability or knowledge to judge audio. That may apply if you build equipment, but not if you're purely an end user of products and simply commenting on sound quality.
We were all born with different skill sets, and put on this earth for a purpose - and our respective purposes aren't made any more 'special', simply because some of us know one end of a soldering iron from another or can recite the laws of physics backwards whilst drinking our own bath water! ;)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
25-08-2016, 01:28
OK. But we know how this plays.
Subjectivist: I can hear a difference
Techy type: There should be no difference; however, let's do some A/B blind testing first to determine that you are actually hearing, rather than imagining you're hearing a difference, before we start re-writing the science textbooks
Subjectivist: A/B tests are boring and stressful and I cannot be arsed doing them. I just wanna listen to some choons!
Tech type: Whatever.
Best violent juxtaposition of nail, hammer and "head" for a while Joe! Nice one:)
Tom "nah it'll never catch on" :D
Marco.. sweetie :D you are losing the debate and starting to sound like Jeremy Corbyn trying to explain why it's good to pay for trident missiles with no warheads on them....
How come all these "improvements" just happen to be something you can buy as a cellophane pre-packaged after-market accessory that can be fitted within minutes by a diy klutz????
Why no craze for lets say "all capacitors should be blue" ? Would this be due to the fact that people would have have at least the knowledge to know which value of capacitor to fit where and also there are soldering skills to take into account? Not very marketable?
You said yourself in an earlier post that 1000's of people have heard the same thing... that's how the con works!! Smoke and mirrors.. "the sound of the crowd" or marketing as some know it. get enough people to agree that it works and be vocal about it and you soon have a landslide of opinion. nothing works like real word of mouth.... even if the whole crowd is shouting "look at the emperors new clothes!".... "Chinese whispers"+internet=.. well... herd mentality+mass delusion in some cases!
Most now accept that this happened in the case of the Linn LP12... but this is much bigger and more fundamental than that:)
Do you want to be the one saying "actually I've believed in the emperors new clothes for years, even told my friends they should come and see them, but now that you point it out to me... yeah I can see he's naked"?? probably not...
Your honour. I rest my case:)
Jez dahling, I'm "losing" nothing but the will to live, continuing an argument with you that neither of us is ever going to win! :D
Just because something is sold as a "cellophane pre-packaged after-market accessory that can be fitted within minutes" doesn't mean it doesn't work, and neither because 1000s of people have reported on its efficacy does it mean it's a con or that they've been 'brainwashed'.
Sure it happens, but it's not *automatically* always the case when assessing the efficacy of something in audio that doesn't fit with your deeply-ingrained scientific belief system!
You talk about "smoke and mirrors", well what about the old adage: 'There's no smoke without fire'? If enough people report the same thing, then perhaps there's something in it, and thus deserves further investigation? And often when such investigation is carried out, what's reported turns out to be true.
We could argue on that point until the cows come home, with you putting your slant on matters to suit your argument, and me vice versa, but it's not really going to get us anywhere.
Why no craze for lets say "all capacitors should be blue" ? Would this be due to the fact that people would have have at least the knowledge to know which value of capacitor to fit where and also there are soldering skills to take into account? Not very marketable?
What, you mean like the Z-foil resistors I've had fitted to my passive preamp, which you claim sound no different from any others? :eyebrows:
Now, that's not a "cellophane pre-packaged after-market accessory that can be fitted within minutes by a DIY klutz", if the job is to be done properly. You need good soldering skills to fit them right, which is why I employed the help of a friend, as I acknowledge my limitations.
It didn't stop me from hearing what I did though, which was that there were notable and repeatable sonic differences between the various resistors that Duncan and I tried, and which I reported the results of on the forum, so I don't just hear improvements with 'piss-easy to fit' mains leads, because I've been 'conned' into believing so! :ner:
And many others since who've fitted the same resistors to their equipment have reported similar sonic improvements, so did I somehow 'con' them into hearing what they did, by using 'smoke and mirrors'? I think not. The same could be said for folks trying different types of mains leads, after following a recommendation posted here by myself or someone else.
Anyway, I'm off now to have my breakfast, whilst I eagerly await the next thrilling instalment of this rather futile debate ;)
Marco.
Yes, since 'Blzebub' and some of his cronies were at last shown the door (including the most rabidly intransigent types, with a penchant for a circular argument over the same old shit) ;)
It was those idiots I used to always clash with, as we were quite simply, polar opposites! Po-faced, snooty 'science-types'/computer geeks and I rarely get on.
Marco.
I agree wholeheartedly - I haven't been there in years but last time I was there those types made it unbearable. Glad to hear it has improved.
The trouble is there is so much snake oil in what can be a very cynical industry - the scalpel of reason therefore has its uses so long as you realise its limitations. The measurement metrics for audio are extremely simplistic compared with the human ear and therefore tend to be quite inadequate especially when looking at broad band time varying nonlinear signals and comparing them with static fixed frequency single tones. The ear is quite the opposite of a linear measurement system.
All approaches involve compromise and people have different tastes, different hearing, different goals and differing ability to tolerate some compromises over others. So we all end buying different kit. No-one I know ever takes a test bench into dems so purchase decisions are ultimately always subjective.
The trouble is there is so much snake oil in what can be a very cynical industry - the scalpel of reason therefore has its uses so long as you realise its limitations. The measurement metrics for audio are extremely simplistic compared with the human ear and therefore tend to be quite inadequate especially when looking at broad band time varying nonlinear signals and comparing them with static fixed frequency single tones. The ear is quite the opposite of a linear measurement system.
All approaches involve compromise and people have different tastes, different hearing, different goals and differing ability to tolerate some compromises over others. So we all end buying different kit. No-one I know ever takes a test bench into dems so purchase decisions are ultimately always subjective.
+1 Especially the last paragraph.
Arkless Electronics
30-08-2016, 00:11
I agree wholeheartedly - I haven't been there in years but last time I was there those types made it unbearable. Glad to hear it has improved.
The trouble is there is so much snake oil in what can be a very cynical industry - the scalpel of reason therefore has its uses so long as you realise its limitations. The measurement metrics for audio are extremely simplistic compared with the human ear and therefore tend to be quite inadequate especially when looking at broad band time varying nonlinear signals and comparing them with static fixed frequency single tones. The ear is quite the opposite of a linear measurement system.
All approaches involve compromise and people have different tastes, different hearing, different goals and differing ability to tolerate some compromises over others. So we all end buying different kit. No-one I know ever takes a test bench into dems so purchase decisions are ultimately always subjective.
Excellent post;) I could add ifs buts and caveats all night long to that but it has a fundamental truth. As I said just the other day, there is nothing I would enjoy more than to have the financial/time/resources freedom to research just this without having to worry about selling anything or what's "in" at the moment... to just research what is really important and what is not in linking up the subjective observations with objective data and come up with the real unified combined theory...
Hi Nick,
I agree wholeheartedly - I haven't been there in years but last time I was there those types made it unbearable. Glad to hear it has improved.
The trouble is there is so much snake oil in what can be a very cynical industry - the scalpel of reason therefore has its uses so long as you realise its limitations. The measurement metrics for audio are extremely simplistic compared with the human ear and therefore tend to be quite inadequate especially when looking at broad band time varying nonlinear signals and comparing them with static fixed frequency single tones. The ear is quite the opposite of a linear measurement system.
All approaches involve compromise and people have different tastes, different hearing, different goals and differing ability to tolerate some compromises over others. So we all end buying different kit. No-one I know ever takes a test bench into dems so purchase decisions are ultimately always subjective.
Excellent post indeed. I wholeheartedly concur, especially with the bit in bold, which is why simply applying the laws of physics to such is too rigid and 'broad brush', and ultimately inadequate as the sole arbiter for 'proving' (or not) what ears can clearly hear, yet seemingly flies in the face of those laws.
We need to dig deeper, apply lateral thinking and utilise more appropriate tools for analysis, in order to find the answers we're looking for in that area, rather than ignorantly (and automatically) dismissing as 'imagined' phenomena that seemingly doesn't 'fit' with our currently accepted measurement metrics for audio :)
Marco.
Hi Nick,
Excellent post indeed. I wholeheartedly concur, especially with the bit in bold, which is why simply applying the laws of physics to such is too rigid and 'broad brush', and ultimately inadequate as the sole arbiter for 'proving' (or not) what ears can clearly hear, yet seemingly flies in the face of those laws.
We need to dig deeper, apply lateral thinking and utilise more appropriate tools for analysis, in order to find the answers we're looking for in that area, rather than ignorantly (and automatically) dismissing as 'imagined' phenomena that seemingly doesn't 'fit' with our currently accepted measurement metrics for audio :)
Marco.
The problem is not the application of physics but the reductionist and linear application of physics. I come from a background in complexity theory and I can assure you things are slowly changing but there is a huge amount of inertia. Largely applying linear reductionist approaches makes problems tractable but over simplifies things in the real world. A good example is the steady state measurement of the human hearing response. This leads to a certain measured bandwidth and upper frequency limit. However due to the nonlinear neural signal processing and the distributed multi-sensor nature of human hearing then phase and time differences across our auditory apparatus with its multiple sensory points enable us to detect leading edges far above the maximum steady state frequency even though individual sensory inputs do adhere to this bandwidth limit. This is before we even consider higher level cognitive effects within the neural architecture that make us sensitive to certain (especially digital) distortions and not others. Can one deduce the complexity of life just by measuring dna bases? Absolutely not. Biological systems give rise to rich complex and emergent properties that cannot be deduced merely by breaking something down into its component parts. So it is with perception also and a lot of what we hear arises solely within our cognitive architecture.
Thats not to say Audiophiles don't imagine a lot of things however ;)
walpurgis
31-08-2016, 21:15
Cor Blimey! :)
(Actually, paragraphing might make that little lot easier to digest)
The problem is not the application of physics but the reductionist and linear application of physics.
Indeed, and I can't abide the behaviour of such reductionists. It's a major bugbear of mine.
Largely applying linear reductionist approaches makes problems tractable but over simplifies things in the real world.
That's exactly my view, and why people with such a rigidly inflexible mindset will struggle to learn anything new. It's almost as if they have an innate fear of questioning their deeply-ingrained dogma/'scientific belief system', which acts as some form of 'comfort blanket'. I blame cognitive dissonance... ;)
Seriously though, I often find 'engineering types' to be precisely like that (why I really don't know), whereas real scientists tend to have more genuinely open and inquisitive minds, considering that there is still much to be learned from the world around us than is explained simply by the laws of physics.
A good example is the steady state measurement of the human hearing response. This leads to a certain measured bandwidth and upper frequency limit. However due to the nonlinear neural signal processing and the distributed multi-sensor nature of human hearing then phase and time differences across our auditory apparatus with its multiple sensory points enable us to detect leading edges far above the maximum steady state frequency even though individual sensory inputs do adhere to this bandwidth limit. This is before we even consider higher level cognitive effects within the neural architecture that make us sensitive to certain (especially digital) distortions and not others. Can one deduce the complexity of life just by measuring dna bases? Absolutely not. Biological systems give rise to rich complex and emergent properties that cannot be deduced merely by breaking something down into its component parts. So it is with perception also and a lot of what we hear arises solely within our cognitive architecture.
An excellent point, very well expressed, and oh so true.
Thats not to say Audiophiles don't imagine a lot of things however...
Oh without doubt, and I have never said differently, as at the end of the day we're fallible humans. Just not that said imagining happens *every* time someone hears something that superficially doesn't conform with the contents of 'Johnny's book of 1950s physics' ;)
That's simply lazy, or some might say, wishful thinking... It certainly doesn't equate to any form of rigorous analysis!
Marco.
Blueflash
01-09-2016, 07:32
I cannot be bothered with any "Advice" from those wedded to double blind testing for audio.
The blunting effects are amazing, try a test for audibility of distortion, it will not show up measurable differences. Do the changing fast enough and you will not even be able to hear in phase or out.
It was used to determine the threshold for MP3 compression. 90% could not tel the difference ....
Then they will try to sell you a super tweeter even though they say "nothing can be heard over 20 kHz.
Bit like using a meter with a low impedance to measure a high impedance circuit.
Precisely, Alex. I can't be bothered with them either, simply because there is little incentive for me to listen to them, as I doubt they could teach me anything useful.
An electronics engineer can certainly teach me about building audio equipment and impart to me the technical knowledge necessary to carry that out, *BUT* he won't necessarily be able to teach me to build a better hi-fi system than I already have; those are two entirely different skill sets, so in that respect an EE is no more of an 'expert' than I am - that is what Jez needs to understand when we're discussing hi-fi.
As I said earlier too, almost every one of the 'DBA fetishists/objectivists' systems I've heard have, to my ears, sounded no more than mediocre (mostly crap), so what incentive do I have to adopt their system building methodology and abandon mine (together with all the 'foo' I use, lol), which has succeeded in me putting together numerous superb sounding/musically satisfying systems over the years?
That's the bottom line for me.
I learn from people that I both respect as human beings and who can demonstrate that they have a good pair of ears, not from dogmatic, self-appointed experts with an ego that, IMO, far exceeds their true talents - and by that I mean their ability to assemble hi-fi systems that can impress me, sonically. It means 'hee-haw' to me what technical qualifications anyone has, because that matters not a jot when judging issues relating to sound quality.
The fact is, just because you've got technical qualifications coming out of your wazoo, doesn't mean that you've got a better pair of ears than anyone else for judging sound quality!
Oh and in terms of this ridiculous mania amongst some for DBA testing, as Nick said earlier:
All approaches involve compromise and people have different tastes, different hearing, different goals and differing ability to tolerate some compromises over others. So we all end buying different kit. No-one I know ever takes a test bench into dems so purchase decisions are ultimately always subjective.
Absolutely, and I don't see the DBA-fetishists choosing their system that way, so in the absence of conducting a DBA test in said dem room, how do they *know* that they didn't 'imagine' that the amp they ended up buying was better than the others that they listened to, or the CD player or whatever? And if they 'imagined' that, and consider it ok, then what's wrong with us 'imagining' that mains leads make a difference, or any other subjective aspect of audio?
Where do you draw the line for accepting what is real and what is 'imagined', and who or what gets to be the final arbiter?
It's all nonsense.... At the end of the day, outside of those building the equipment we use to play our music on, hi-fi is ultimately judged subjectively, so as an end user of products and music lover, not a electronics engineer, all you'll ever need to build an excellent sounding system is a good pair of ears!!
:exactly:
Marco.
"All approaches involve compromise and people have different tastes, different hearing, different goals and differing ability to tolerate some compromises over others. So we all end buying different kit."
I have been saying this for some time now; though probably not expressed quite so eloquently.
I think the first sentence should be displayed in the Welcome area. It neatly encapsulates the subjective nature of AoS.
Something rare and beautiful has occurred here today.
Whenever I posted anything like this on P*M I got abused!
walpurgis
01-09-2016, 11:13
Something rare and beautiful has occurred here today.
Whenever I posted anything like this on P*M I got abused!
Well there you go! :D
Abuse is not tolerated here and we make every effort to ensure it does not occur.
Too right... And if you hang around long enough, Nick, which we hope you do, you'll soon find that out :)
Marco.
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