View Full Version : Interesting New Direct Drive TT comparison with Technics SL1200
http://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-4
Could be good choice for future upgradable DD TT:)
The Black Adder
13-03-2015, 08:00
Love that Pioneer... Something about it appeals to me more than the Techy for some reason. I've been tempted before with the techy but this Pioneer look more like the business... will it sound better than a stock techy?... I'd like to say aye.
Wonder if I could be a Journalist... "Before I moved to the moon I used to live at the center of the universe"...lol
For you, daftee, as a second T/T, no worries, but it or any other ‘Techy' (modded or not) won’t do what your TD-124 does! :nono:
Have you seen this: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?36723-Interesting-video-comparing-an-SL-1210-with-the-new-Pioneer-PLX-1000
Marco.
Clive197
13-03-2015, 09:28
Wasn't the Pioneer TT mentioned in a thread a few weeks ago along with a pretty dodgy review?
That’s the link I’ve just posted (above), Clive ;)
Marco.
It's been compared to a 1210 Mk. 5....but I owned one of those and found my old belt driven Dual to be more musical.
The Black Adder
13-03-2015, 16:01
For you, daftee, as a second T/T, no worries, but it or any other ‘Techy' (modded or not) won’t do what your TD-124 does! :nono:
Have you seen this: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?36723-Interesting-video-comparing-an-SL-1210-with-the-new-Pioneer-PLX-1000
Marco.
Aye chap... My Thorens is the biz n I loves it ta bitz. - On reflection the Pioneer (inside) looks pretty poor. Can't believe the pitch control is attached to a board.... wtf. My mate always bust the slider, or wore it out on the Techy but it was a pretty easy job to fix so he said.
2nd TT?... A techy... one day. :) - Problem is I'd be forever tricking it up... lol
Clive197
13-03-2015, 19:02
That’s the link I’ve just posted (above), Clive ;)
Marco.
See, I told you so.
The Barbarian
13-03-2015, 19:13
Joe don't even think about it man ;)
Aye chap... My Thorens is the biz n I loves it ta bitz. - On reflection the Pioneer (inside) looks pretty poor. Can't believe the pitch control is attached to a board.... wtf. My mate always bust the slider, or wore it out on the Techy but it was a pretty easy job to fix so he said.
2nd TT?... A techy... one day. :) - Problem is I'd be forever tricking it up... lol
Indeed - and that’s the point: A TD-124 doesn’t need ‘nannying' so much to sound good! ;)
Marco.
The Barbarian
13-03-2015, 19:39
Hey Marco
Why not take the 'TD124' plunge instead of farting about with new cartridges?
:eyebrows:
Lol - defo will one day, when I have the room for another T/T! :)
Marco.
The Barbarian
13-03-2015, 19:55
Well i was actually thinking about dumping the bag of shite for one
:D
The Black Adder
13-03-2015, 19:59
indeed... there are parts available to trick up the 124 but the jury is still out on some so called upgrades. The stock unit runs as good as it ever did once refurbished, quite amazing really.
I will be upgrading one part though soon which is the idler wheel to the new Schopper wheel. More news on that later.
Well i was actually thinking about dumping the bag of shite for one
:D
Lol… Trouble is, it doesn’t sound like a bag of shite (far from it)! ;)
Marco.
indeed... there are parts available to trick up the 124 but the jury is still out on some so called upgrades. The stock unit runs as good as it ever did once refurbished, quite amazing really.
I will be upgrading one part though soon which is the idler wheel to the new Schopper wheel. More news on that later.
Have you thought about trying one of these Joe? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261203625784?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
It's one of the things on my 'to do list' for next month. :)
Love that Pioneer... Something about it appeals to me more than the Techy for some reason. I've been tempted before with the techy but this Pioneer look more like the business... will it sound better than a stock techy?... I'd like to say aye.
Wonder if I could be a Journalist... "Before I moved to the moon I used to live at the center of the universe"...lol
It certainly is quite a looker.
Ammonite Audio
14-03-2015, 06:55
Have you thought about trying one of these Joe? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261203625784?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
It's one of the things on my 'to do list' for next month. :)
I have. Contrary to expectations, it's not quiet.
I have. Contrary to expectations, it's not quiet.
Oh - that's disappointing to hear Hugo. Did you have to run it in? I ask because I have a couple of spare Thorens rubber idler wheels. Some time ago I replaced the original idler wheel with a Thorens replacement and to my surprise and dismay found the new wheel was noisy. Didn't try running it in; removed it and went back to the original!
Ammonite Audio
14-03-2015, 16:10
Finding a good TD-124 idler wheel is something of a lottery, so I cherish the few good ones that I have. So, the Audio Silente idler seemed to be a good thing, but sadly it is simply not quiet. Methinks there's a reason why every idler wheel has quite a bit of rubber around the edge! I can't see how running in would help because the thin silicone 'O' ring is not going to deform at all. Maybe this idler works a treat in a wholly new deck like Simone's, but it certainly does not in mine. Similarly, I have one of his graphite arm boards, but that doesn't really work either.
Much tinkering with TD-124 idlers has made me realise that the stepped pulley itself is a significant source of noise, not just from worn bearings, but also from slightly irregular running surfaces. There's much that can be achieved by gently filing and polishing the steps to make them as smooth as possible. My TD-124 now makes a discreet and cultured 'whirring' noise; at least until it's motor pulley needs cleaning.
The Barbarian
14-03-2015, 16:26
If i were totally rebuilding a 'TD124' i would use nothing else but Schopper items
http://www.schopper.ch/index.php?page=idler-wheel-new
The Black Adder
14-03-2015, 17:47
Have you thought about trying one of these Joe? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261203625784?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
It's one of the things on my 'to do list' for next month. :)
Yep... tried one and it wasn't good so I popped the original one back on.
The new Schopper one looks like the biz so I'll do a write up on that when I install it. :)
The Black Adder
14-03-2015, 17:47
If i were totally rebuilding a 'TD124' i would use nothing else but Schopper items
http://www.schopper.ch/index.php?page=idler-wheel-new
Yup... they really know their onions.
Ammonite Audio
14-03-2015, 17:56
Yup... they really know their onions.
And how to charge for onions!
That idler wheel does look nicely made, but would cost something like £220 in the UK, taking into account VAT, import duty and customs handling fees.
The Black Adder
14-03-2015, 18:19
Aye... very true. It's nothing new in HiFi though I suppose.
nekoni koban
24-03-2015, 16:07
Unfortunately anything denominated in Swiss Francs is now more expensive. But their non-mag platter, idler wheel, main bearing, aluminium upper platter, rubber mats ... all first class. On top of which Jeurg is a nice guy.
Unfortunately anything denominated in Swiss Francs is now more expensive. But their non-mag platter, idler wheel, main bearing, aluminium upper platter, rubber mats ... all first class. On top of which Jeurg is a nice guy.
Agreed, Schopper are very friendly and helpful people to deal with.
keiron99
14-06-2015, 10:58
Out of interest, and back to the original topic, has anyone heard the Pioneer PLX-1000?
Is the engineering based on the SL1210, or is it just the case that the external design pays homage to it?
I am intrigued by the overall cost of some of these vintage decks. Just how much would a 'fully schoppered' 124 cost? My guess is around £6000 or more. If that is correct...and it is just a rough estimate...then these decks cost as much as, say, an SME 20-3.
And the other issue for me is whether they remain 'genuine' with so many none standard bits.,but got to admit, a 124 can look quite fabulous In the right plinth. One of the best looking decks ever, to my eyes.
I am intrigued by the overall cost of some of these vintage decks. Just how much would a 'fully schoppered' 124 cost? My guess is around £6000 or more. If that is correct...and it is just a rough estimate...then these decks cost as much as, say, an SME 20-3.
Yup, and it may sound just as good, or perhaps even better, which is the whole point of why these types of T/Ts appeal to discerning enthusiasts [particularly those able to think 'outside the box']: take something essentially superb, in its own right, and through sympathetic and judicious modifications, unleash its full potential; potential that wasn't able to be realised when they were first built.
I know which I'd rather have! ;)
And the other issue for me is whether they remain 'genuine' with so many none standard bits.,but got to admit, a 124 can look quite fabulous In the right plinth. One of the best looking decks ever, to my eyes.
I agree. However, for me, 'genuine' doesn't really come into it.
One is not seeking to preserve a valuable antique, where authenticity is paramount. The exercise in this instance is to maximise the efficacy of the unit as a vinyl transcription device, which in my experience with these types of 'pimped T/Ts', (for want of a better description), from the likes of Audio Grail/Schopper, is exactly what is achieved.
If you have the funds, it's a great way of getting the biggest bang for your buck, as well as owing a beautifully built and completely bespoke turntable, in a way that the purchase of something like an SME 20-3 could never hope to replicate.
Marco.
I am intrigued by the overall cost of some of these vintage decks. Just how much would a 'fully schoppered' 124 cost? My guess is around £6000 or more. If that is correct...and it is just a rough estimate...then these decks cost as much as, say, an SME 20-3.
And the other issue for me is whether they remain 'genuine' with so many none standard bits.,but got to admit, a 124 can look quite fabulous In the right plinth. One of the best looking decks ever, to my eyes.
It needn't cost as much as that. For the 'full works' Schopper will charge:
Motor and chassis restoration (refurbished motor with upgraded bearing, new motor mounts, upgrade main platter bearing, new stepped-pulley thrust plate, new belt): CHF 990
Non-magnetic platter: CHF 1490
New idler wheel + oil: CHF 300
Total CHF 2780.
Taking 1.446 CHF = £1, this converts to £1924. Add on customs duty at say, 20% and VAT, then the total is £2767.
However, you still have to pay carriage both ways. Let's say £300, so you could probably get away with £3000 all in.
For the quality of engineering on offer (and the resulting sonic upgrade), sounds like a bargain to me, in 'high-end' terms... :)
Marco.
You'd have an arm, cart and plinth too so they will knock it up a fair bit
For the quality of engineering on offer (and the resulting sonic upgrade), sounds like a bargain to me :)
Marco.
Yes, and that includes the new Schopper platter. Most 124 users will be quite content retaining the (lighter, 3kg) zinc/aluminium alloy platter, rather than go for the near £1,000 heavier (5kg) platter.
You'd have an arm, cart and plinth too so they will knock it up a fair bit
Apart from supplying a copy of the original plinth (should you want one), Schopper don't do anything to the arms or cartridges used.
Yes, and that includes the new Schopper platter. Most 124 users will be quite content retaining the (lighter, 3kg) zinc/aluminium alloy platter, rather than go for the near £1,000 heavier (5kg) platter.
Indeed. I'm a big fan of the modifying route (providing in the first place that something is truly worth modifying), as one look at my system will tell you. Quite simply, the rewards of going that route can be significant.
I've yet to hear a hi-fi system containing judiciously modified high-quality vintage components being sonically outperformed by anything modern/'off the shelf'. Besides, isn't it good to be a bit different? :)
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
15-06-2015, 07:39
Yes, and that includes the new Schopper platter. Most 124 users will be quite content retaining the (lighter, 3kg) zinc/aluminium alloy platter, rather than go for the near £1,000 heavier (5kg) platter.
The Schopper platter is actually a Swissonor platter. Schopper charge a healthy (massive) premium on Swissonor stuff, but UK buyers can order directly from Swissonor. Apart from mass and sonics, the Swissonor platter does have a significant advantage over the original Mk2 alloy platter - it's precisely machined to sit snugly over the bearing spindle, so no more faffing around with adjusting edge run-out - it just fits. The Swissonor top-platter is excellent too - beautifully made and utterly flat, something difficult to achieve with an original part.
I am intrigued by the overall cost of some of these vintage decks. Just how much would a 'fully schoppered' 124 cost? My guess is around £6000 or more. If that is correct...and it is just a rough estimate...then these decks cost as much as, say, an SME 20-3. And the other issue for me is whether they remain 'genuine' with so many none standard bits.,but got to admit, a 124 can look quite fabulous In the right plinth. One of the best looking decks ever, to my eyes.
I cannot imagine how it is even remotely possible to push a pimped TD-124 to the price level of an SME 20-3, even using Schopper's services. Fettling a motor costs very little and is a DIY job, with care and patience; a Schopper bearing may be expensive, but actually servicing the standard one yields the same results, again for very little. Even with a new Swissonor platter and top-platter, and a decent solid plinth, it would be difficult to spend £2k on a TD-124, including the original deck.
For the quality of engineering on offer (and the resulting sonic upgrade), sounds like a bargain to me, in 'high-end' terms...
Not at Schopper's prices when there are people here in the UK who can perform the same work for less. But, there is something very special about the TD-124 that makes the effort and a little expenditure most rewarding, so it is a high-end deck, if not ultimately an actual bargain. Also, consider that upgrade parts for the TD-124, like Swissonor's stuff, do retain quite a bit of their value, so pimping a TD-124 need not be money down the drain, and the core deck remains sellable too (unless gilded).
Hi Hugo,
Ah yes, the Swissonor mods are also excellent, and of a very high standard. I wasn't aware you could get the same type of work done in the UK for less, so that's interesting.
As you know, I've always loved the TD124, and consider it one of the most elegant and technically accomplished turntables ever made. That, for me, makes it worthy to judiciously modify and for its latent sonic potential to be fully realised.
If I had one (and at some point I do intend to own a TD124), I'd invest whatever funds on it that were necessary in order to achieve the above, and the company I gave the modification work to would simply be the ones I considered would do it to the highest standard. Ultimate quality, not price, would be the driving force :)
Marco.
Indeed. I'm a big fan of the modifying route
I've yet to hear a hi-fi system containing judiciously modified high-quality vintage components being sonically outperformed by anything modern/'off the shelf'. Besides, isn't it good to be a bit different? :)
Marco.
This is a hobby with lots of opinions and claims. All I can say is that to my ears, even the best vintage decks are not competitive with the good modern designs.
Indeed, decks from twenty years ago, such as the Pink Tria glee Anniversary, seem way ahead of a Garrard or Thorens...I've owned all these designs. There is a lot of romanticism in the vintage movement, but set up a genuine comparison and the superiority of the better modern decks is pretty obvious.
I know people don't like to hear this, but if I thought a vintage deck better, I'd still own one....to my ears they are good, fun and fair value. But world-class? Not really.
If I did run one these days, it might well be a Lenco, which is cheaper, and can sound pretty impressive. Pound for pound, that is a value deck if you like DIY stuff.
Well, Peter, if that's your opinion, based on experience, then of course you're entitled to it. Mine, however, is somewhat different.
I've heard well-fettled Garrards, Lencos, TD-124s, SP10s and EMTs all outperforming some very well-regarded modern turntables, and it's got nothing whatsoever to do with 'romanticism' or nostalgia (I was either not even born or merely a kid when that stuff first saw the light of day), and simply what my ears have told me whenever I've heard the comparison.
Now guess what all of the above have in common over the majority of T/Ts produced today? That's right, NONE of them are driven solely by a rubber band! Conclude from that what you will ;)
As for being 'world class', well, I guess that depends on what you mean. The likes of the TD124, SP10 and EMTs were certainly designed in their day to be state-of-the-art, and built as 'no compromise' designs, so I guess that one could call them 'world class'.
However, I know where you're coming from, in terms of their ultimate status as being audio equipment capable of delivering genuine high-fidelity sound. In stock form, by today's standards, some may fall short. However, that's where judicious modifications come in, and companies such as Schopper or Swissonor, who know exactly how to take a superbly engineered turntable and bring it up to modern sonic standards.
I've heard the results, and not just with TD124s, but by applying a similar modification process to my own T/T, and as such, I would gladly put it, or a judiciously modified TD124, against anything that SME produce today. I'm not saying that it would necessarily 'win', but it would certainly hold its own, by creating a genuine and worthy high-fidelity sound, albeit one with a slightly different 'flavour'.
There is too much misguided thinking in audio today that the latest and the newest is automatically the best, when factually that is far from the case - that is if one is capable in any way of thinking outside of the box and looking beyond snobbish nonsense, such as 'badge desirability'......
Marco.
Fair comment, and this is a debate that never gets settled...because in the end we are left with a range of opinions. But let's go back to the ere of these decks...the design was , centrally, for a fAst start-up for broadcast replay of vinyl. That is the key reason for the complex mechanical design, speed of start up. The other requirement was robust reliability, for obvious reasons.
But this was the 'mono' era, when noise was less problematic because, with mono, it only occurs in one plane. Note that with the arrival of stereo, when noise issues became more obvious, the idler wheel decks were scrapped pretty swiftly.
The truth is, these designs involve too many potentially noisy features. They just were not designed to minimise noise. They are lovely, but designed for use in another era, with different needs. No sane designer would now seek to smoothly drive a noise-free platter with a hard rubber idler wheel. It does not make design sense.
Finally, my reference to modern decks was not confined to belt-drive, I have heard direct drives such as the 'Beat' sound wonderful too.
I make these points not to denigrate vintage decks....any more than I would denigrate vintage cars. I simply want to make the point that the 'vintage' guys are in a minority....a determined and committed minority for sure. My experience, for what it is worth, has been that the majority try the idler wheel designs, have much fun, and then move-on.
And I would still put a PT Anniversary from 1990 up against any vintage deck.
But let's go back to the ere of these decks...the design was , centrally, for a fAst start-up for broadcast replay of vinyl. That is the key reason for the complex mechanical design, speed of start up. The other requirement was robust reliability, for obvious reasons.
I agree, but I'd also say, based on experience, that a by-product of that over-engineering is a uniquely, 'muscular' and authoritative sound; something that is completely absent in the majority of modern (domestic) belt-driven turntables, which sound lightweight and 'weedy' in comparison, and which (with the former) can provide some rather grin-inducing listening!
Quite simply, the bass authority (and how music is 'underpinned' with an almost 'hewn from granite' solidity), from something such as a well-fettled Garrard 401 or an EMT, is something to behold - and if you want a slice of that action [count me in], then nothing else will do.
The truth is, these designs involve too many potentially noisy features. They just were not designed to minimise noise. They are lovely, but designed for use in another era, with different needs. No sane designer would now seek to smoothly drive a noise-free platter with a hard rubber idler wheel. It does not make design sense.
Again, I totally disagree.
Nothing is perfect, of course, but for me a superbly engineered idler-driven T/T makes a lot more design sense than the use of an elastic band being driven by a weeny 'Fisher Price' motor (I'm being slightly facetious here of course, but you get my point), in comparison with what's used on, say, a Garrard 401. It's precisely that huge f*ck-off 'washing machine-sized' motor that's giving the sound its muscular authority! ;)
Noise? With well-fettled examples of idler-driven T/Ts (and I've heard many) it's minimal to the point of insignificance, especially in a home environment. Everything in audio, after all, is a compromise, and I'd rather put up with a minuscule amount of noise, and enjoy that huge big muscular sound, than have total silence and a weedier, less musically involving sound. As ever, you pays yer money and takes yer choice...
Finally, my reference to modern decks was not confined to belt-drive, I have heard direct drives such as the 'Best'' sound wonderful too.
I make these points not to denigrate vintage decks....any more than I would denigrate vintage cars. I simply want to make the point that the 'vintage' guys are in a minority....a determined and committed minority for sure. My experience, for what it is worth, has been that the majority try the idler wheel designs, have much fun, and then move-on.
Fair enough, Peter, and I appreciate that. However, I have a different view. It's patently obvious to me, with your love of SME, that you and I like a different type of sound, which for me is further confirmed by this:
And I would still put a PT Anniversary from 1990 up against any vintage deck.
Well, as much as I rate the PT as a superb T/T, which it is, it's not really my cuppa, and I could say the same with SMEs, although those are different again.
Both however, in my experience (especially the former which IME majors on a kind of ethereal 'master tape' style of presentation), lack the 'balls' (as I've outlined above) of a good idler or D/D - and it's precisely that grin-inducing muscular authority, which does it for me with vinyl replay, and why that's the route I'd pursue for the type of sound I'm looking for.
The problem is, not very many people get to hear what such T/Ts are capable of (especially when judiciously modified), or have the wherewithal or desire to go down that road, and so instead will simply choose the easy option of buying something new - and that's fine.
On AoS, however, we'll always champion the use of quality vintage equipment and try to educate people on the potential advantages of going that route, so that when the times comes to part with their hard-earned cash, they'll be in a better position to make an informed choice, instead of simply walking into a dealer and dropping £10k on an SME, when there could be a better option for them out there that they may not have previously considered.
*That*, for me, is what these types of discussions are all about :)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
15-06-2015, 10:35
Can we really generalise like this? Do all idler drives sound 'robust' and all belt drives sound 'etherial'? I suspect not. Apart from anything else, different systems will let them work better or less so than others.
Top decks sound remarkably similar to my ears. Yes, of course, there are differences but, as ever, those differences are far smaller than most people seem to want to admit. The old night and day thing springs to mind which I reckon is rubbish.
I now have nine working TTs. None of them are perfect and none are quote 'high end' unquote. My favourites are one belt drive (Origin Live) and one idler drive (Dual 1019) Using the same arm and cartridge on both has them performing quite close to each other. In this case, the OL with my linear tracker has more drive and crisp bass than the Dual but the Dual does depth, height and width slightly better!! The Dual is remarkably quiet and makes a mockery of the idler wheels are noisy stuff. It's very well engineered.
In the end, who actually cares about this but the owner of said TT who is getting his music fix from it (if that is actually why he uses it:eyebrows:). It is certainly not worth arguing about although I appreciate that this thread merely contains discussion:)
Can we really generalise like this? Do all idler drives sound 'robust' and all belt drives sound 'etherial'? I suspect not. Apart from anything else, different systems will let them work better or less so than others.
I agree, Gordon, and one shouldn't generalise. However, in my experience, whilst there are many variables that will ultimately influence the sound of a T/T, there is an intrinsic 'house sound' attributed to idlers, belters and direct-drives, born from how they've been engineered (essentially it's part of their 'DNA'), and that 'house sound'/sonic signature is easily heard, if you know what to listen for.
As such, I could probably identify, say, an SP10 and an LP12, blindfolded (using familiar music), regardless of what system they were used in. Therefore, I'm not generalising; I'm stating facts based on what I can clearly hear.
This is not an argument, however; we're simply having a discussion and sharing our respective (equally valid) viewpoints. No-one is falling out about it, and some may even learn from the discussion, so all is good! :)
Marco.
The Schopper platter is actually a Swissonor platter. Schopper charge a healthy (massive) premium on Swissonor stuff, but UK buyers can order directly from Swissonor. Apart from mass and sonics, the Swissonor platter does have a significant advantage over the original Mk2 alloy platter - it's precisely machined to sit snugly over the bearing spindle, so no more faffing around with adjusting edge run-out - it just fits. The Swissonor top-platter is excellent too - beautifully made and utterly flat, something difficult to achieve with an original part.
I cannot imagine how it is even remotely possible to push a pimped TD-124 to the price level of an SME 20-3, even using Schopper's services. Fettling a motor costs very little and is a DIY job, with care and patience; a Schopper bearing may be expensive, but actually servicing the standard one yields the same results, again for very little. Even with a new Swissonor platter and top-platter, and a decent solid plinth, it would be difficult to spend £2k on a TD-124, including the original deck.
Not at Schopper's prices when there are people here in the UK who can perform the same work for less. But, there is something very special about the TD-124 that makes the effort and a little expenditure most rewarding, so it is a high-end deck, if not ultimately an actual bargain. Also, consider that upgrade parts for the TD-124, like Swissonor's stuff, do retain quite a bit of their value, so pimping a TD-124 need not be money down the drain, and the core deck remains sellable too (unless gilded).
That's interesting Hugo.
I didn't know that Schopper buy in the platters from Swissonor (in fact I'm not sure I have even heard of Swissonor).
Who would you recommend to fettle/refurbish/upgrade TD124s in the UK? Simple things like belt and idler replacement, lubrication and electrical servicing (replacement of the spark suppressor) I can do myself, but servicing the E50 motor is beyond me.
Fair comment, and this is a debate that never gets settled...because in the end we are left with a range of opinions. But let's go back to the ere of these decks...the design was , centrally, for a fAst start-up for broadcast replay of vinyl. That is the key reason for the complex mechanical design, speed of start up. The other requirement was robust reliability, for obvious reasons.
But this was the 'mono' era, when noise was less problematic because, with mono, it only occurs in one plane. Note that with the arrival of stereo, when noise issues became more obvious, the idler wheel decks were scrapped pretty swiftly.
The truth is, these designs involve too many potentially noisy features. They just were not designed to minimise noise. They are lovely, but designed for use in another era, with different needs. No sane designer would now seek to smoothly drive a noise-free platter with a hard rubber idler wheel. It does not make design sense.
Finally, my reference to modern decks was not confined to belt-drive, I have heard direct drives such as the 'Beat' sound wonderful too.
I make these points not to denigrate vintage decks....any more than I would denigrate vintage cars. I simply want to make the point that the 'vintage' guys are in a minority....a determined and committed minority for sure. My experience, for what it is worth, has been that the majority try the idler wheel designs, have much fun, and then move-on.
And I would still put a PT Anniversary from 1990 up against any vintage deck.
Not true. The rumble of the old grease bearing Garrard 301 was quickly noticed by engineers at the BBC when used to play stereo records. They asked Garrard to do something about it and Garrard introduced the oil-lubricated 301 as an answer. These decks, as well as the later 401s (and TD124s; also idler wheel driven) were used by the BBC up to the mid '70s and beyond; long after the introduction of stereo.
The BBC also used EMT 930s and the later 948 and 950 decks (as well as the occasional 928 belt drive) along with (modified) Technics SP10s, with the latter becoming the deck of choice up to the '00s.
Ammonite Audio
15-06-2015, 13:24
I love my TD-124 to bits, since it's such a stunning performer, but even I admit that mechanical noise is always present, although it is possible to reduce it to a fairly low level. My recently acquired Kenwood KD-990 has emphasised that noise, by being pretty much silent, but does that make it a better deck? No, it makes it a different deck - that's all.
On the idler noise issue, I'm working with a rubber company to see how much the idler noise can be reduced, perhaps with the aim of producing new idler wheels for the TD-124 (and maybe other decks if the technical matters can be resolved while maintaining affordability). This is far from a straightforward matter!
The Black Adder
15-06-2015, 13:43
The new Idler from Shopper looks interesting I must admit.
They did me a great service when I had my 124 overhauled. It's been running like a peach ever since. Expensive, yes but at that time I didn't know of anyone who knew much about the motor and the mechanics... maybe that has changed now.
I did try to service the motor in mine and I couldn't do it... it was very difficult to align. In fact I left it and sent it to Schopper for that reason.
As a side issue, i worked at the BBC , and spent plenty of time in broadcast studios, from 1976. I can't recall seeing a Garrard being used once, the usual were Technics direct drive units. Same when I worked in commercial stations in the earlyb70s, they did not use old Garrard designs at all, not where I worked anyway. The technics SP 10 was the favoured deck.
But enough of this. The central issue is whether idler-wheel decks compete effectively in 2015. I would say 'sort-of'. But the idea that (say) an SME lacks bass drive and power somewhat puzzles me. As usual, people will have to listen for themselves and make their own judgement. As we know, in audio you always end-up at that point. 'Suck it and see' has to be the guiding motto. My favourite is still the P T Anniversary.
Ammonite Audio
15-06-2015, 17:41
Who would you recommend to fettle/refurbish/upgrade TD124s in the UK? Simple things like belt and idler replacement, lubrication and electrical servicing (replacement of the spark suppressor) I can do myself, but servicing the E50 motor is beyond me.
Sorry, I missed your question earlier. My motor was overhauled for me at very modest cost by Martin Bastin, using new bearings, felts etc that I'd already bought from Jim Campbell in the States. I could have done it myself, with a bit of patience, but Martin has done plenty of these, so I chickened out. I'd happily have a go myself now, including Martin's trick of securing the motor coils in place with silicone sealant to stop them from 'chattering'.
The new Idler from Shopper looks interesting I must admit.
Yes it does look great, is beautifully made, is ground perfectly true, but it's no quieter than a good old stock idler wheel. I bought one thinking that it would be the best value option, but on reflection I cannot recommend it when it does not actually do the job better than most old wheels, which might only need a new oilite bearing (cheap via eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/thorens_parts?_trksid=p2054897.l2559)) and a little re-grinding of the rubber edge. I have to chalk this up to experience - as mistakes go it could have been worse, financially.
But the idea that (say) an SME lacks bass drive and power somewhat puzzles me.
It doesn't lack it under any normal circumstances, Peter, but simply in comparison with some of these big old broadcast T/Ts, which in my experience, can make ANY domestic T/T sound somewhat 'anaemic'.
Also, for me, they produce a different type of bass, which feels more 'grounded', propulsive and effortless, than that produced by any belt-drive turntable. It's rather like comparing, say, a Bentley Continental GT and a Ford Mondeo: both will do 100mph comfortably, but it's *how* they get there that matters! ;)
Marco.
P.S As an aside, perhaps you can help, since you used to work at the Beeb in the 70s. Which arms and cartridges would generally partner the SP10s you seen? I have a real interest in this sort of stuff. Cheers.
As a side issue, i worked at the BBC , and spent plenty of time in broadcast studios, from 1976. I can't recall seeing a Garrard being used once, the usual were Technics direct drive units. Same when I worked in commercial stations in the earlyb70s, they did not use old Garrard designs at all, not where I worked anyway. The technics SP 10 was the favoured deck.
But enough of this. The central issue is whether idler-wheel decks compete effectively in 2015. I would say 'sort-of'. But the idea that (say) an SME lacks bass drive and power somewhat puzzles me. As usual, people will have to listen for themselves and make their own judgement. As we know, in audio you always end-up at that point. 'Suck it and see' has to be the guiding motto. My favourite is still the P T Anniversary.
Peter l have to agree the PT Anniversary is an amazing Turntable probably that or an AVID Acutus..........
Marco, apologies but I can't remember what arms and cartridges were in use. To be honest, it was just seen as a tool to do a job. The engineers installed and fixed it, all it then needed to do was work and keep working. Nobody really cared about the rest. It was just 'kit' to do a job. In fact, I never heard a discussion about 'sound quality' as such.
Still puzzled about the notion of modern decks such as an SME falling short of bass power. I have owned three Garrard decks, and been thus able to make careful comparisons. None of them could equal my 30-12 for bass depth and power. It's not really even close to my ears. In fact I suspect even the smallest SME, the model 10, could outperform a Garrard on bass. Not that I have ever tried that. Other modern decks would, I suspect, perform equally well.
Of course, bass response is also a function of arm and cartridge, so the variables are endless. What the Pink a Triangle Anniversary had was a fabulously sweet and open midrange. And the midrange is the key, without it, the rest of the frequency range cannot compensate.not for me, anyway.
We can all agree on one thing, we won't agree. That is just how it is. Doesn't matter, life goes on.
rubber duck
15-06-2015, 21:26
Never heard the PT Anniversary but still remember the first time I heard the PT TOO with the top Helius arm at home. Even with slightly loose arm bearings that was a revelation in terms of clarity and openness in the midband. I try not to be too dogmatic about things these days and happily flip flop between a direct drive (SL1200) and belt (modified OEM Rega) with the Technics currently in favour. Both have very good, but different rhythmic qualities, that tell me what goes on in the bass in a musically meaningful way to me. My other t/t (in storage) is a Xerxes X, so I must have a thing for timing.
BTH K10A
16-06-2015, 04:01
It doesn't lack it under any normal circumstances, Peter, but simply in comparison with some of these big old broadcast T/Ts, which in my experience, can make ANY domestic T/T sound somewhat 'anaemic'.
Also, for me, they produce a different type of bass, which feels more 'grounded', propulsive and effortless, than that produced by any belt-drive turntable. It's rather like comparing, say, a Bentley Continental GT and a Ford Mondeo: both will do 100mph comfortably, but it's *how* they get there that matters! ;)
Marco.
P.S As an aside, perhaps you can help, since you used to work at the Beeb in the 70s. Which arms and cartridges would generally partner the SP10s you seen? I have a real interest in this sort of stuff. Cheers.
BBC SP10's were designated RP2/9 and RP2/10 and used the MP1-18 tonearm http://www.bbceng.info/EDI%20Sheets/10381.pdf Cartridge was usually a Shure SCs
There BBC Tech info sheet also indicates that the BBC modified SP10's were mainly used for Local Radio and Dubbing Theatres. I presume the EMT's were reserved for the national and international radio studios.
Hi Peter,
Marco, apologies but I can't remember what arms and cartridges were in use. To be honest, it was just seen as a tool to do a job. The engineers installed and fixed it, all it then needed to do was work and keep working. Nobody really cared about the rest. It was just 'kit' to do a job. In fact, I never heard a discussion about 'sound quality' as such.
Sorry for the late reply. No worries, I hear what you're saying. I'm sure that they must've strived for quality too, as well as reliability, so the arms and cartridges used would've also been chosen for sonic performance, or it wasn't the BBC that I knew, who in those days (in that respect) always set such high standards...
I can remember, for example, as a teenager in the very early 80s, just getting into serious hi-fi, how stunning the Radio 1 Top 40 chart show used to sound on a Sunday night (on my then Sony separates system), and the DJs would've been playing vinyl, on those SP10s, which is why I asked about arms and cartridges. The same chart show now (not that I listen to it very often) sounds nothing like as good! Indeed, neither do any of the other radio broadcasts these days, since everything went digital.
Still puzzled about the notion of modern decks such as an SME falling short of bass power. I have owned three Garrard decks, and been thus able to make careful comparisons. None of them could equal my 30-12 for bass depth and power. It's not really even close to my ears.
Well, again that must just simply be down to our respective experiences, or perhaps how the Garrards we've heard have been mounted and set-up, with which arm and cartridge. The big EMTs, however, are the REAL bass monsters! I once had the pleasure of hearing a 950, such as this:
AwqEOr_7Hn8 W83Kv7FNyjk
...and it was breathtaking. It would be interesting to know when the BBC moved from using SP10s to EMTs, or perhaps that only happened in some studios? I've got pictures saved, though, of John Peel at the helm of a 950, in the BBC Radio 1 studios, so it would be interesting to know when that was.
I completely agree that SME T/Ts don't lack bass power, but it's a different kind of bass power, to the likes of what an EMT 950 is capable of (especially in conjunction with those EMT arms and TSD-15 cartridges, which sound superb). It's about sheer propulsive heft and gravitas, and in my experience, NO belt-driven T/T I've heard, SME or otherwise, can produce the same type of bass - and it's that type of bass power which I love!
Of course, bass response is also a function of arm and cartridge, so the variables are endless. What the Pink a Triangle Anniversary had was a fabulously sweet and open midrange. And the midrange is the key, without it, the rest of the frequency range cannot compensate.not for me, anyway.
I agree, the music is always in the midrange. However, what I don't like is when, in order to get the type of midrange performance you're referring to, the bottom end is compromised [I can't go that lightweight 'airy-fairy' type sound, with no 'balls']. Consequently, for me, low-end heft is *almost* as important, especially the ability of the bass to 'boogie like a bastard' and carry a tune.
Any T/T which can't do that, for me, is fundamentally broken - and what I've referred to above is something that the best direct-drives and idlers do superbly well! :)
Here's a lovely TD124, fitted with an SME IV (and Supex cartridge), in a superb McIntosh/Tannoy system:
GAcygQcJYn4
Now *that* is what you call a genuine enthusiast's system, chosen by someone clearly able to apply some lateral thinking!
Marco.
Hi Andy,
BBC SP10's were designated RP2/9 and RP2/10 and used the MP1-18 tonearm http://www.bbceng.info/EDI%20Sheets/10381.pdf Cartridge was usually a Shure SCs
There BBC Tech info sheet also indicates that the BBC modified SP10's were mainly used for Local Radio and Dubbing Theatres. I presume the EMT's were reserved for the national and international radio studios.
Thanks for that, mate. I've seen that link before.
The picture I've got clearly shows John Peel using an EMT 950, at the Radio One studios, so they (along with SP10s) must've been used for local radio :)
Marco.
BTH K10A
18-06-2015, 19:18
Hi Marco
I doubt any 950 made it into a local radio stations as they were so expensive.
Radio 1 was national so the 950 would make sense.
When the Bush House BBC World Service equipment was auctioned off a few years ago there were a number of 950's amongst the lots.
Incidently John Peel also used these :)
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/vlcsnap00008x_zpsqiafkwvf.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/vlcsnap00008x_zpsqiafkwvf.jpg.html)
Yeah, that's what I meant, soz. The 950 would've been used in many studios throughout Broadcasting House. What I'd like to know is whether or not any of those Radio 1 chart shows, which I remember (1980-85), would've had a 950 (with matching arm and cartridge) at the helm...?
I know it's not your kind of music, but I can remember sitting there when Madonna's 'Crazy for You' [then No1], with that deep bass into, came thundering through my speakers in the lounge, in a way that I could NEVER get it to sound in my system at home - it was jaw dropping! :eek:
Zn5OJGucveg
Great pic of John - I know it well. Those are EMT arms, but what are the T/Ts - are they also EMTs? :)
Marco.
BTH K10A
18-06-2015, 19:36
Yes, they are 938's
I managed to find one with an original dust cover and MC phono board. It has the Z plates and finishing strips as well so I could flush mount it like the ones in the JP pic.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/HiFi/IMG_0813.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/HiFi/IMG_0813.jpg.html)
Cool... Looks great, Andy! So, with the above pic of John Peel, do you think he's broadcasting from the BBC studios or from home? It's deceiving because of the dressing gown :D
If it's the former, then it shows that not only SP10s were being used by the BBC, as claimed by Peter - and for me, more importantly, which era was the John Peel photo taken in?
Btw, do you know what I mean about the bass authority (gravitas) of big, broadcast T/Ts, such as EMTs, compared with that of domestic T/Ts? Although many of the latter aren't exactly lacking in that respect, it's a TOTALLY different thing...
Another one of those songs from 80s chart shows that blew me away was The Corgis, 'Everybody's Got to Learn Sometime' (from 1980):
fOVECbr-vsc
I remember Tony Blackburn (I think) saying something like: 'Pin your ears back and listen to this!' It sounded utterly amazing, in a hugely expansive, echo-y and eerie kind of way!
Marco.
Btw, do you know what I mean about the bass authority (gravitas) of big, broadcast T/Ts, such as EMTs, compared with that of domestic T/Ts? Although many of the latter aren't exactly lacking in that respect, it's a TOTALLY different thing...
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Marco.
Lodgesound
19-06-2015, 11:58
I do & know exactly what you mean Marco - the big EMT's we had at the BBC always sounded incredibly solid and extremely in control.
They were also a joy to use...
This over-romantising of BBC equipment is just that...over romantic. It was all bought on strict budgets with the need for durability and reliability, not 'ultimate sound quality.' The first moment that digital became reliable, the analogue stuff was sidelined into history. No one trotted round the studios moaning that quality had fallen as a result.
The true quality of the BBC is in its broadcasting skills, not the equipment. John Peel would have sounded great regardless of what deck was being used. As for stuff like EMT decks...have you actually had the chance to compare them with a good modern deck? I have, at length, with excellent samples. They don't do anything special at all, certainly not to my ears.
BTW. without being too pedantic, I did not say that the BBC used only SP10s at any point. In my experience, they were actually more popular in commercial stations. Probably because of cost.
Lodgesound
19-06-2015, 15:41
This over-romantising of BBC equipment is just that...over romantic. It was all bought on strict budgets with the need for durability and reliability, not 'ultimate sound quality.' The first moment that digital became reliable, the analogue stuff was sidelined into history. No one trotted round the studios moaning that quality had fallen as a result.
The true quality of the BBC is in its broadcasting skills, not the equipment. John Peel would have sounded great regardless of what deck was being used. As for stuff like EMT decks...have you actually had the chance to compare them with a good modern deck? I have, at length, with excellent samples. They don't do anything special at all, certainly not to my ears.
BTW. without being too pedantic, I did not say that the BBC used only SP10s at any point. In my experience, they were actually more popular in commercial stations. Probably because of cost.
No indeed they did not - in fact when digital video machines came along it made the job both easier and more complex at the same time as 4 times the results were expected in given time periods.
The machinery was extremely expensive at the time and extremely well set up. As you say the great artists of the day were not defined in terms of skill by the machinery - the machinery merely augmented what they did.
In terms of analogue broadcast machinery of any kind versus it's domestic or "semi-professional" counterparts yes I have and in terms of overall useability, reliability and consistency of operation and reproduction there is rarely any contest.
Most of the machinery at the time was standardized across the Corporation's main operational facilities.
Which branch of engineering or operations in the BBC were you involved in Peter?
This over-romantising of BBC equipment is just that...over romantic.
Lol - why would I 'romanticise' over something I've never used or been involved with? My passion for high-quality broadcasting equipment is simply because the stuff I've heard sounds superb - and more often than not, to my ears, better than most of its domestic counterparts.
You really must stop banging on about 'nostalgia', and such like, Peter, as that has got shit all to do with why I like some BBC stuff.
I'll get to the rest of your post later [most of which you can take for granted I disagree with], as we're just about to go out for dinner! :cool:
Marco.
I do & know exactly what you mean Marco - the big EMT's we had at the BBC always sounded incredibly solid and extremely in control.
Indeed. IME, they make the majority of domestic (belt-drive) T/Ts sound like toys! ;)
Marco.
Your opinions Marco, seem based, as far as I can tell from what you write, on rather a narrow sample of equipment. Have you actually heard serious modern decks at any length? I rather suspect not. The idea that they sound 'small' or 'weedy' is just plain odd, because they don't, they just don't. Anyone who's done the comparison could hear that..regardless of what deck they end-up favouring, which is always a personal choice.
Anyway, this is all pointless, and the last forum entry I will make.
BTW: I was a Producer at BBC News, and spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours in live broadcast studios. Quite a few of them self-opp. I also worked on feature programmes for quite a long time.
Have fun, but don't believe anyone else's opinions about audio...it's way too personal a choice for that. Fortunately, it's not mainly about how much cash you spend either.
Cheerio.
BTH K10A
19-06-2015, 18:34
Btw, do you know what I mean about the bass authority (gravitas) of big, broadcast T/Ts, such as EMTs, compared with that of domestic T/Ts? Although many of the latter aren't exactly lacking in that respect, it's a TOTALLY different thing...
Marco.
My EMT's do produce good solid bass but without direct comparison it's difficult to tell whether it's down to their heavyweight precision construction, type of drive, onboard phono stages, cartridge, etc.
What is certain is that they were designed as a complete package and all parts work in harmony. Setting them up is a doddle compared to bouncy turntables with various makes of arm or cartridge and all sorts of compatibility issues.
Ali Tait
19-06-2015, 18:45
Your opinions Marco, seem based, as far as I can tell from what you write, on rather a narrow sample of equipment. Have you actually heard serious modern decks at any length? I rather suspect not. The idea that they sound 'small' or 'weedy' is just plain odd, because they don't, they just don't. Anyone who's done the comparison could hear that..regardless of what deck they end-up favouring, which is always a personal choice.
Anyway, this is all pointless, and the last forum entry I will make.
BTW: I was a Producer at BBC News, and spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours in live broadcast studios. Quite a few of them self-opp. I also worked on feature programmes for quite a long time.
Have fun, but don't believe anyone else's opinions about audio...it's way too personal a choice for that. Fortunately, it's not mainly about how much cash you spend either.
Cheerio.
Be sorry to see you go Peter, be good if you would stick around. :-)
Why are you leaving, Peter; merely over a difference of opinion on some turntables? Don't be daft. There's certainly no animosity on my part, no matter how much we disagree! :)
Yes of course I've heard plenty of 'serious modern T/Ts'. Obviously you haven't read many of my posts here, otherwise you wouldn't have asked me that question... I've also heard the SME 10 and 20 (since you're an SME man), neither of which I'd buy, as good as they are, as I much prefer my own modded Technics.
I know that's a hard one to get your head around, if you've never heard it before, but trust me, it's an excellent T/T, and well up to modern high-end standards, as I'm sure those here who've heard it would testify to. If you remember, I've also offered to bring it down for you to assess in the context of your own system, where you can compare it with your SME - an offer that you've so far declined...
The offer is still open. I would urge you to take me up on it, if you're ever to appreciate where I'm coming from with the comments I make about EMTs, Garrards, SP10s, etc, as otherwise there will be no common ground, and so our debates on the matter are destined to go round in circles.
Anyway, as you say, it's all about different opinions, and yours are every bit as valid as mine. All of us are on a continual learning curve in this game, and so ingrained dogma or stubborn intransigence play no part in that learning process. We must always keep an open mind and enjoy the many surprises that this hobby regularly throws up, sometimes at the most unexpected moments! :cool:
Marco.
Lodgesound
19-06-2015, 22:33
I second that heartily Peter...you achieved the position I so wanted in the BBC - one of Producer / Journalist which sadly precluded me due to my lacking credentials in terms of class and educational background.
It would be fascinating to hear things from a production perspective - I myself am sadly just a technical man which although I carry no regret for would have loved to move on from....
One thing I can't get my head around is that the BBC engineers had no interest in sound quality, and just used stuff that 'worked' and was reliable... I'm sorry, but I don't buy that at all :nono:
So all those wonderful sounds I've heard were just a 'happy accident'? Yeah, right...! ;)
Marco.
The Black Adder
20-06-2015, 08:46
I'd love an EMT... I think they are a magnificent decks. Stoooopid prices though, but that's the way it goes. :)
IMO, it's difficult to get better than these two. The first is an EMT 927ST with EMT 139STB (rare balanced phonostage) and Ortofon RMA297 tonearm. I'd simply pop my SPU on the end:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/540/mYxcZf.jpg
Check out this chap [another 927] with the 16" platter... That's a 12" single on there (!) :eek: :
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/661/7GBsWz.jpg
You can keep yer modern domestic pish, *THAT*, for me, is where it's at!! :stalks: :wowzer:
Marco.
BTH K10A
20-06-2015, 17:13
I'd simply pop my SPU on the end:
Marco.
No you wouldn't, the RMA297 has the pins in the EMT/Neumann diamond configuration and the locating pin need to be on the top as there's no slot on the bottom. Also unless your SPU is in an A shell with the EMT/Neumann connector configuration the geometry will be wrong. So you will have to buy a TSD15 like the rest of us.
Your second pic is of a 927F which is the most desirable for obvious reasons.
I probably should have bought the ex Danish Radio 927t with Bruel & Kjaer phono stage for 15,000DM in 1999 which at the time was about £5k. Now I understand they are changing hands for between £25k & £45k :mental:
No you wouldn't, the RMA297 has the pins in the EMT/Neumann diamond configuration and the locating pin need to be on the top as there's no slot on the bottom. Also unless your SPU is in an A shell with the EMT/Neumann connector configuration the geometry will be wrong. So you will have to buy a TSD15 like the rest of us.
Lol - ok, then! :D
In reality, I'd probably buy an SPU-A, as I've always fancied one... ;)
Marco.
BTH K10A
21-06-2015, 04:58
Lol - ok, then! :D
In reality, I'd probably buy an SPU-A, as I've always fancied one... ;)
Marco.
Still a different pin configuration but you could always convert the arm.
Woteva would be necessary, muchacho :)
Marco.
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