Technics Bearing Mod

[REM]

Spotted THIS (http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21320&highlight=) over on VE and wondered if any technically minded bods on here had any comments?

Cheers:cool:

[Ammonite Audio]

Well, Dave Cawley has been hinting strongly about a forthcoming bearing mod from Sound HiFi. Hopefully he will comment here.

[DSJR]

Isn't Dave Cawley working on a version of this for the UK contingent?

The original bearing ain't that bad as many are thrashed for thousands of hours with little to no lubrication, but anything to further quieten it from its already impressive levels must be a good thing IMO :)

[Dave Cawley]

Watch this space for one that keeps the oil in!!

Dave

[MartinT]

We're watching and waiting... :)

[REM]

Like the birds.....and the sheep.....watching.....waiting....waiting:mental:

[Dave Cawley]

Not long now...........

Dave

[Tolstoi]

Yes, Dave we're counting on you :D

Cheers

Joerg

[Ammonite Audio]

Not long now...........

Dave

Any chance of a teeny hint on how much it's likely to cost and whether it's going to be a DIY fit?

[Dave Cawley]

It is a total DIY fit. Taking only 10 minutes at the most, and everything done from the top, so you don't even need to move the turntable. All you need is a Philips screwdriver.

The spindle is a solid single piece of polished 303 Stainless Steel and the bearing is polished PB102 Phosphor Bronze. A ceramic ball and PTFE thrust pad are fitted. The whole assembly is in a captive oil bath.

The retail price including UK VAT will be £175.00 and the A.O.S. price £150 or less if bought as part of a package.

They could be as little as 3 weeks away?

Regards

Dave

[Ammonite Audio]

Dave

Please can you put my name against one as soon as they are available?

Thanks,

Shuggie

[MartinT]

Me too - will order one as soon as available.

[Marco]

I don't know whether just to buy one of Dave's refurbished SP10s instead (which is in the pipeline, anyway) and get the 'bearing mod' thrown in for free! ;)

How much is the bearing mod going to be then?

Marco.

[mike1210]

Tidy, looking forward to this mod:)

[Ammonite Audio]

How much is the bearing mod going to be then?

Do pay attention Marco!;)


It is a total DIY fit. Taking only 10 minutes at the most, and everything done from the top, so you don't even need to move the turntable. All you need is a Philips screwdriver.

The spindle is a solid single piece of polished 303 Stainless Steel and the bearing is polished PB102 Phosphor Bronze. A ceramic ball and PTFE thrust pad are fitted. The whole assembly is in a captive oil bath.

The retail price including UK VAT will be £175.00 and the A.O.S. price £150 or less if bought as part of a package.

They could be as little as 3 weeks away?

Regards

Dave

[Marco]

LOL. Missed that. Too many threads/posts to monitor... Hey, it's tough at the top, you know! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[REM]

Here's my order:smoking::smoking:

Cheers

[Tolstoi]

Yes, Dave we're counting on you :D

<---that should have been a :), sorry.

Joerg

[Dave Cawley]

I have one in stock, and a few more to come!

Form an orderly queue................

Dave

[Marco]

How mucho is it, daddy-o? :smoking:

Marco.

[Alex_UK]

:doh: ^^^^^ post #10 or 15 Marco! ^^^^^ ;)

[Marco]

Hahahaha... Therein lays the problem of returning to old threads (at the latest post) where you've forgotten what has been discussed further back! :lolsign:

Marco.

[MartinT]

Form an orderly queue................

Yes please! When do you want an order?

[REM]

One for me please....:)

[Marco]

I think I'll let you chaps be the 'guinea pig', for a change, on this one. Let's hear all about the effects when one of you has done it :)

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

http://www.soundhifi.com/images/bearings.jpg

As predicted, its here now! See http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4475 and http://www.sl-1200-mk2.com/

Dave

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

The photo is fine, but what exactly are we supposed to be looking at? It might be self-explanatory to you, but remember, we're not all techies or engineers! ;)

Why are there three 'thingies' shown in the photograph (what are the differences between all three?), and where exactly have the modifications been carried out? Is the bearing shown at the end the finished article that you're selling? :)

Also, what sonic improvements is one likely to obtain with this modification - have you carried out an A/B comparison between one deck with the standard bearing and another with the modified one? If so, what did you hear? These are precisely the things potential customers will be interested in.

:cool:

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

The link tells all, you did click on it??

Dave

[Marco]

Yes, but this doesn't tell me the thing that I'm most interested in........


The standard bearing on the left cannot keep the oil in place. Instead a high viscosity "anti-fling" oil must be used. The centre Timestep bearing has the spindle as a solid single piece of polished 303 Stainless Steel with a much larges base diameter and the bearing is polished PB102 Phosphor Bronze. A ceramic ball and PTFE thrust pad are fitted. The whole assembly is in a captive oil bath so that you can use more suitable thin oil, or any oil of your choice. The right hand bearing is by Mike New which is precision ground and would not be out of place in a £12K turntable. Mikes bearing includes a Silicon nitride ball, carbide pad, brass for housings and a 35mm long top grade sintered bronze bearing.


What sonic improvements the new bearing brings about! Remember you're dealing with audiophiles/hi-fi enthusiasts here, not engineers ;)

I presume you've listened and compared? :)

The Mike New bearing is the one I'd be interested in (were I not going to buy an SP10 from you), and £400 is quite a lot of money to shell out on a 'speculative' improvement, from a sonic point of view. It certainly looks nice, though!

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

Oh yes!! I believe we actually have quite a few engineers here!! All bearings were brand new and run in for 10 hours, expect greater things after 30+ hours.

As StanleyB always says "I let my customers do the talking"

But yes have auditioned all three on the same deck in the space of 90 minutes. On my bearing the bass is even more solid in a dry, articulate and faster sort of way, as you may expect; the timing/smearing is slightly improved and long piano notes are even smoother. This all comes about because of the better bearing, and especially because there is about twice the surface area, so the platter only does what it should. Mikes bearing is arguably better than the SP-10 and it shows, it is like mine only even more so, relentless electric music from Kraftwerk has metronome timing and classical music on direct cut Sheffield Labs is sublime, musical notes hold their own as if you were in the front row.

But this is subjective. Engineering is not, and that is why we have quoted specifications and materials. I expect customers to comment soon?

Regards

Dave

[StanleyB]

Looking at the technical design construction of that new bearing, I would expect it to be at least a few decibels more detailed than the standard cast bearing. I wouldn't mind trying one with an oil filled mat. -85dB SNR or better looks a distinct possibility. That's Red Book CD territory, but without the missing bits.

[Themis]

Which missing bits ? The ones dropped at the remaster ? ;)

[StanleyB]

Which missing bits ? The ones dropped at the remaster ? ;)
In the A to D conversion process. If you listen to an Ampex tape, a vinyl cut, and a CD pressed from it, a complex orchestral piece can sound wildly different.
This bearing could be a Caiman beater:(.

[Themis]

Hmmm... I'm sure Dave all-amplifiers-sound-the-same Clark would think different... :lolsign:

(all this reminds me once more how good tapes sound :()

[MartinT]

Mike New bearing now ordered. Can't wait to test it out!

[DSJR]

Mr Cawley sir, I cannot get the link to load. Every time I try it, I get the "Internet explorer cannot display the webpage...). What am I doing wrongly?????? :scratch:

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


As StanleyB always says "I let my customers do the talking"

But yes have auditioned all three on the same deck in the space of 90 minutes. On my bearing the bass is even more solid in a dry, articulate and faster sort of way, as you may expect; the timing/smearing is slightly improved and long piano notes are even smoother. This all comes about because of the better bearing, and especially because there is about twice the surface area, so the platter only does what it should. Mikes bearing is arguably better than the SP-10 and it shows, it is like mine only even more so, relentless electric music from Kraftwerk has metronome timing and classical music on direct cut Sheffield Labs is sublime, musical notes hold their own as if you were in the front row.


Well done - this is excellent and the first time I've seen you write that way! I think you should include that information on your website (or at least an edited version of it) :)

It's important to remember, Dave, that the majority of your target customers are primarily interested in the audible sonic effects you detect with your modifications through any comparisons carried out; the fact that they're subjective doesn't matter. People will still be able to relate to what you're describing, and it's this which piques their interest.


I expect customers to comment soon?


I await Martin's report with great interest! :cool:

Marco.

[MartinT]

I await Martin's report with great interest!

Admission time: the GCPH is no longer doing it for me. It's not the sound quality, which is very good. The problem is that it hums and I cannot do anything to reduce a low level but still annoying hum when playing at my normal playback volume. The hum changes with gain and volume control setting and seems intrinsic to the circuit design. No amount of cable swapping and repositioning makes a damned difference to that hum, which now that I'm aware of it I cannot stop from irritating me.

What I want to do, therefore, is sort my phono stage before I receive the new bearing so that I can make the best possible before-and-after comparison. I'm in discussion with Dave C about a possible swap to the Whest PS.30R.

I'll let you know how that goes and will report on the new bearing in due course.

[Ammonite Audio]

Admission time: the GCPH is no longer doing it for me. It's not the sound quality, which is very good. The problem is that it hums and I cannot do anything to reduce a low level but still annoying hum when playing at my normal playback volume. The hum changes with gain and volume control setting and seems intrinsic to the circuit design. No amount of cable swapping and repositioning makes a damned difference to that hum, which now that I'm aware of it I cannot stop from irritating me....................

That's interesting. My GCPH is as quiet as a tomb; much better than the Trichord Dino/Dino+ that it replaced.

[REM]

I was on the blower to Dave ordering my MN bearing last night as MartinT was posting here about ordering his, looks like anyone considering this had better get their order in quick:smoking:.

[DSJR]

Still can't access the 1200-mk2 site. The cached Google one is a week or three out of date :(


It probably isn't worth it, but would the new bearing(s) fit the SL150? My existing one doesn't have the cut-out on the side (the auto variants may well have done back then)

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0462.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0460.jpg

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Dave

I have a SL150 here, but can't get to it right now! (it's buried). If you could have a look at the bearing and send an image or two? BTW the link works perfectly here.

Thanks

Dave

[Tolstoi]

Mr Cawley sir, I cannot get the link to load. Every time I try it, I get the "Internet explorer cannot display the webpage...). What am I doing wrongly?????? :scratch:

It's about time to switch to Firefox :)

Cheers

Joerg

[Marco]

Hey, Dave, there's a bit of a 'hot' debate regarding bearing matters going on over on Vinyl Engine, eh? :eyebrows:

Btw, we're the most polite and friendly forum, not them! ;)

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Marco, yes and one member has already been banned!

However, here is what Mike says:-

For the Technics SL1200:-- a Completely New Designed Rigid Close Tolerance Bearing

Design Philosphy:-----

This completely new design of bearing for the SL1200 arose from an evaluation of the shortcomings of the present bearing, and the realization that to extract 100% of the potential sonic quality from the excellent SL1200 Direct Drive Motor then a completely new design of bearing was justified.

This new design based on the considered application of engineering physics, optimizes the allowable design envelope by the use of Computer Aided Design (CAD) and represents the ultimate possible Bearing that can be designed and manufactured to fit within the constraints of the existing SL1200 motor/platter design. This new Bearing has been manufactured to the highest quality possible and I therefore cannot apologize for the price.

At this time I will have a further batch of 25 bearings available by the end of the year, and from there on, Dave Cawley of Sound HiFi and I will be able to offer immediate deliveries.

It is very interesting to observe how many highly perceptive audio devotees who understand what this bearing will do to their listening pleasure have already ordered one. These are people who seem to have a technical understanding of the merits of the design and who do not demand to have proof of “listening to it”!!! The fact is you are paying for a bearing that you “cannot hear” and consequently what you do hear ‘is all of the recorded music’ faithfully reproduced.

a) The Bearing Housing is machined from a solid billet of machining quality brass bar 65mm dia. by 45mm long.

b) The three locating posts on the Bearing Housing have been made as large as practical (allowing for the manufacturing tolerances of the SL1200) so as to provide the largest possible mechanical contact between the housing and the main chassis and also for maximum accuracy of concentricity with the Magnet Rotor and Motor coil assembly to which it attaches.

c) The centre column of the Bearing, which fits into the centre of the printed circuit/motor coil assembly, has been made as large as possible for maximum rigidity.

d) The bearing bush is made of close sintered bronze impregnated with oil and honed to fit each spindle as a set, to a nominal clearance accuracy of 0.008mm (less than 1/2 of a thousandth of an Inch) There is a procedure to honing sintered bearings A course stone is used on the hone in order to keep the pores of the sintered bearing as open to oil as possible.

e) The main shaft/Spindle is 12.8mm in diameter by 39mm long. The 12.8mm diameter was chosen so as to allow for any under tolerances in the nominal 12.7mm (1/2”) bushes.

f) The main shaft, record spindle and the locating taper are made from a single piece of M200 Cr-Mo tool steel hardened and gas Nitrided.

g) The shaft and Taper are precision ground in a NC grinder to an accuracy of 0.002 TIR. The polished surface finish on Diameter is 0.4 Microns.

h) The vertical load of the Platter and associated copper mat (if fitted) is supported by a 8mm dia. Silicon Nitride Ball. This Ball floats in a 6mm deep cavity cylindrical cavity in the end of the shaft. This cavity allows the Ball to locate within the Honed Bearing for absolute maximum rigidity, removing any possible resonance problems. This design also allows for the maximum length of bearing.

i) The Silicon Nitride Ball rests on a 3mm thick solid carbide pad. These components are housed in a large sealed oil well in the bottom of the bearing housing.

j) The record locating Spindle has been made 3mm longer to cater for those people who wish to use the increasingly accepted copper mats with 200Gm vinyl and center clamps.

k) These Bearings are totally made in Australia by myself with the main spindle being supplied by a high precision tool and gauge manufacturer who is NATA approved and a NCS International-Certified-Quality company for Aero Space and Medical Work.
____________________

And I said:-

I have auditioned all three on the same deck in the space of 90 minutes. On my bearing the bass is even more solid in a dry, articulate and faster sort of way, as you may expect; the timing/smearing is slightly improved and long piano notes are even smoother. This all comes about because of the better bearing, and especially because there is about twice the surface area, so the platter only does what it should. Mikes bearing is arguably better than the SP-10 and it shows, it is like mine only even more so, relentless electric music from Kraftwerk has metronome timing and classical music on direct cut Sheffield Labs is sublime, musical notes hold their own as if you were in the front row.
______________

More to follow.............

Regards

Dave

[Themis]

Very nice explanation, thanks Dave. I like the passage of the "paying for a bearing that you cannot hear" : very accurate.

(It seems I accumulate information about my future deck ^^)

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

Sounds excellent, and I suspect is liable to elevate the performance of the Sound Hi-fi-modifed SL-1200/1210 to a level which almost no belt-drive turntable in the world can match.

In your opinion, how does Mike's bearing compare with what's used in an SP10 - and if you reckon it's better, could it be fitted to one?

I'm thinking ahead here for next year!

Marco.

[Marco]

Dave, I'd like your thoughts on this mate... :cool:

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

In your opinion, how does Mike's bearing compare with what's used in an SP10 - and if you reckon it's better, could it be fitted to one?

It is better than a well used SP-10 bearing. No it could not be fitted to a SP-10. With a wife on crutches and a cat convalescing with only one kidney, the whole story will have to wait.

What I can say, is that within 5 years, I with the help of others, will have completely designed the existing plinth, platter, bearing and control electronics on both the SL-1200 and SP-10.

Regards

Dave

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


It is better than a well used SP-10 bearing. No it could not be fitted to a SP-10.


Thanks for the info. Sorry to press you on this, but it is vital to me deciding what my future plans are.

Ok, I guess that below is really what I need to know. I would very much like your advice.

In your opinion, what should I do: wait for Mike's new bearing to become available, buy it from you and have it fitted to my SL-1210, or buy a fully refurbished SP10 with SP10 Timestep PSU early next year?

What I'm getting at here is this... As the best possible sonic performance is ultimately what matters to me most, what will give me the biggest 'bang for my buck'; the former or the latter option?

Moreover, in your opinion, which has the greater influence on sound quality overall: the superior motor mechanism in the SP10 (together with your larger SP10 Timestep PSU) or fitting Mike's new bearing to an SL-1210 with the standard Time Step?

This is basically what I have to decide on, so your advice here will be invaluable.

Having the facility of fitting two or possible three tonearms to a suitable plinth is partly what makes the SP10 option very tempting, but if in your opinion my deck fitted with Mike's bearing is liable to sound as good, or perhaps even better, depending on the condition of the particular bearing on whatever SP10 I get, then I may think twice about obtaining an SP10.


With a wife on crutches and a cat convalescing with only one kidney, the whole story will have to wait.


Give my regards to Jill. I hope she's on her way to a full recovery - and best wishes to your wee cat, too; one of ours in for some treatment today, too :)

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Marco

As you know 'bang for my buck' does not work for me. If I had the money I would have a £100K Continuum or Goldman right away. What does work for me is "the best I can sensibly afford"

The SP-10 will always be a holistically better deck, the chassis and platter are already so good, and you can get a 12" arm to work. But there is no 'bang for buck' it's a lot of money for a small improvement.

I suggest we start a SP-10 thread? And move posts 47 onwards to it?

Regards

Dave

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

Interesting... Yes, we do differ when it comes to SPPV. I too value superb engineering and genuine innovation, and will pay for it, but only when it directly translates into a level of audio performance which is far and away superior to that available elsewhere. I don't buy hi-fi equipment as an ornament.

Each to his or her own and all that :)

Anyway, the bearing thing is one to ponder. In terms of my SP10 situation, I'll have to weigh things up and decide what to do :cool:

Marco.

[DSJR]

Of all the highest end turntables, for me it's the Continuum which promises the most, especially for the novel arm design. They can sing for £100K though, especially when the standard of the bits of black plastic most often played is taken into consideration. We don't all like many of the direct cut's that were made, despite them proving once and for all how good vinyl *could* be - in my opinion....

[MartinT]

We don't all like many of the direct cut's that were made

Not to mention half-speed masters. I have a so-called Audiophile half-speed master of Supertramp's Breakfast in America which sounds truly awful.

[DSJR]

Half speed masters improve the treble - or should, but bass suffers, as it does with DMM cuts, which have everything below 40Hz removed to stop mod-noise on the cutter.

Some of the best "commercial" vinyl cuts were many of the 1980's 12" singles cut at 45rpm. Quite often, the limiters were switched off and the wider, deeper grooves could handle the extra bass. Some of the better 33rpm "singles" are pretty good too IMO, as long as they don't go much over the 15 minute mark per side.

[Marco]

Of all the highest end turntables, for me it's the Continuum which promises the most, especially for the novel arm design.


I agree. Of all the 'stupid money' turntables, it's the one which appears to have some genuinely innovative engineering inherent in its design, instead of simply being jerk-off jewellery for badge snobs.

As for buying it though at £100k... Well let's put it this way: if it outperformed an SP10 (with SP10 Time Step PSU) to the same degree as said SP10 outperformed, say, a Rega P3, then I might consider selling one of the houses I own outright to raise the necessary capital ;)

However, as the laws of diminishing returns are likely to put paid to any notions of that, I think my assets are safe for the time being! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Alex_UK]

Some of the best "commercial" vinyl cuts were many of the 1980's 12" singles cut at 45rpm.

Absolutely agree - I've got a lot of 80s 12" singles and in the main they are exquisite - I'm surprised my German copy The Cure - A Forest isn't worn through it gets played so much (what a track - I'm even planning a 30th Birthday party for it next March!)

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Marco

I agree. Of all the 'stupid money' turntables, it's the one which appears to have some genuinely innovative engineering inherent in its design, instead of simply being jerk-off jewellery for badge snobs. I'm glad you agree with me!

As for buying it though at £100k... Well let's put it this way: if it outperformed an SP10 (with SP10 Time Step PSU) to the same degree as said SP10 outperformed, say, a Rega P3, then I might consider selling one of the houses I own outright to raise the necessary capital Go see your estate agent tomorrow, honest!

Dave

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

Have you done a direct comparison with your SP10? :)

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

Within a day yes! Have you heard one? You really should.

I don't buy hi-fi equipment as an ornament.

Each to his or her own and all that

Did I say that I did?????? Where did this come from?


Dave

[Marco]

That comment wasn't aimed at you, mate :)

Regarding the Continuum, I'd need to hear it myself. I have my doubts it's *that* good in comparison to a fully tricked out SP10, but I'll take your word for it :cool:

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

That's OK then.

Remember I was the only one to notice the amplifier/speaker issue the other weekend? (actually two others did too, can you guess who they were?) I'm known for being technical, but my ears are bloody good too old chap!

If you came to the Munich High End Show with me, you could hear the Continuum and others correctly set up. You could also hear 1/4 million (currency doesn't matter) loudspeakers, and you would like them.

You, like me, would probably come away saying to yourself "what I have is really good, and to achieve the next step is going to cost me 1/2 million, so I'll stay as I am and be happy!" ? I certainly did and will be happy with my SP-10 for ever, might add a Koetsu Rosewood Signature if I get the next military contract though and a pair of GamuT S7 loudspeakers (the slightly smaller brother of the £64K ones at the show).

That would be it though, nothing else. It's like driving a Maybach, great car, but totally and completely out of my league and I would never get through Above Town in Dartmouth. So a top of the range C Class it is, and a second hand one too..................

Regards

Dave

[MartinT]

a pair of GamuT S7 loudspeakers

Interesting. As an Usher dealer, do you not get a good price on the Be10/20? How do you rate them? I'm curious as I run a pair of Be-20 and I don't think there are many pairs in the country.

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Martin

The Ushers are really great, and even better value, but the support from the UK Distributor caused me and others problems, so we no long deal with them.

The GumuT S7 is more tightly integrated with more bass slam that I really want for 80's electropop ! http://www.avreview.co.uk/news/article/mps/UAN/2616/v/3/sp/ and also http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=88

BTW, will respond to your earlier question later.

Regards

Dave

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

I see where you're coming from and to an extent I agree.

Regarding the SP10 vs. Continuum thing, I'm in no position to argue the point as I haven't heard a Continuum, nor been to the Munich show.

However, what I would say is if I walked away gob-smacked at what I'd heard from (ANY) equipment or speakers at a hi-fi show, no matter the cost, it would be the first time in a lifetime! I mean that seriously.

Rooms, set-up, and all sorts of anomalies, usually combine to significantly undermine the potential of equipment demonstrated, such that I am more often than not left cold.

That's not to say though that the equipment demonstrated isn't intrinsically very good (and would sound better when set-up in a more optimal environment), but show conditions usually spoil things, hence why I am rarely, if ever, 'blown away' by anything I hear at a hi-fi show :)

The only time I've got close to that was at Whittlebury Hall when I visited Guy Sergeant's room and heard his kit on the end of the (superb) Aspara HL1s... Those huge horn-driven speakers were quite outstanding, far more so, IMO, than the Gamuts you're raving about, which incidentally I thought were 'ok' but nothing special.

The most impressive speakers for me at Whittlebury Hall were the Asparas and the huge Cabasse La Sphère. Those were the only two designs I heard which I'd even remotely consider replacing my Tannoys with (the latter if I had the room!) I guess that I'm just not particularly into 'tall, slim' floostanding loudspeakers. Unless there's a 12" driver (or bigger!) in a suitably wide-baffled cabinet, driven by a top-notch valve amp, I'm not interested ;)

These days, for me, three main things must be in the equation in order to obtain the best sound: vinyl, valves, and huge (preferably horn-driven) high-efficiency speakers! :fingers:

I do like the Ushers, though, and I have to be honest here and say that in my opinion they're far better (sonically and in terms of SPPV) to the Focals you stock now. Furthermore, IMO, their top models (such as Martin uses) are superior to either the Gamuts or the Focals, save perhaps the Grande Utopias!

Hey ho, I guess it would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything :cool:

Marco.

P.S As an aside (and I've said this before), you should definitely promote Puresound products as much as you do those of A.N.T Audio, as by not doing so your potential customers are missing out on another superb product option. But I suspect that you have a slight bias against valve-based gear...

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Marco

It is a pity your experience of shows is so limited (so far) Why not come to Munich or CES? Then you would be in a position of knowledge, and knowledge is power man!! Also the food is very good...............

I know of no Ushers that have been reviewed that are better than the expensive GumuT's, can you point me to a source? I believe you misunderstood the GumuT's, slim? no way! see the size of the drivers?? Wow!! You and some friends could live in one.

Your suspicions are thankfully incorrect! One of the best amps I have tried here was a pair of 300B monoblocks, the total cost was > £30K and they really rocked! I rarely if ever push any sort of power amplifier. But I do push Phono Stages, and the top runners in my very wide experience are Plinius, Whest Audio PS.30R and A.N.T. I have a lot of equipment passing through here on loan from manufactures, my experience is very wide and I can speak with authority on my visits to Munich and CES. You really, really must come next time and compare notes with me in real time. I can show you the light at the end of the tunnel, and take you there.

Regards

Dave (can you see my tongue firmly implanted in my cheek?)

[chris@panteg]

If had won that 45m pot last week i would 1st in the Que for a continuum but for speaker's i would be checking out these

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/livingvoice2/olympian.html

A mere snip at 190k but hey ' out of 45m

I have not heard them but i have heard the Tone scouts and air partner system , truly staggering .

[Marco]

can you see my tongue firmly implanted in my cheek?


LOL - of course I can! ;)

I'd love to come to Munich, so give me a shout when you're organising to go next year :cool:

As for the Gamuts, they're 'slim' compared to my Lockwoods! What size of main drivers do they use?

Regarding the Gamuts vs. the Ushers, I'm not talking about reviews; I'm talking about what I've personally heard. I've heard both big Ushers (can't remember which models) at shows, and the Gamuts at Whittlebury Hall, and can say quite categorically that I preferred the Ushers.

However, I never form definitive opinions on anything I hear at a show, so would reserve final judgement until I heard either in my own system, not that this is ever likely.


I can show you the light at the end of the tunnel, and take you there.


Thanks, but I'm not sure I need that particular direction :eyebrows:


But I do push Phono Stages, and the top runners in my very wide experience are Plinius, Whest Audio PS.30R and A.N.T.


Yes you do, and in my opinion you push the A.N.T much more than the P10 or Guy's new designs. Have you heard some of his new stuff? It's stunningly good! Out of interest, how much Puresound product do you sell on average per month?

Now you might think that the A.N.T is better (and I agree it *is* really good), but the fact is your ears/hearing is different to those of your potential customers (or certainly not necessarily the same), so by 'pushing' the A.N.T so heavily, and (judging by the evidence of what you write here) virtually ignoring the Puresound products, you're inadvertently restricting their choice, and in a way making it for them, rather than letting their own ears be the judge.

Do you see my point? :)

In my opinion, you should promote all of your products equally, and with the same passion, otherwise why stock the others in the first place?

Btw, I'm not having a go at you; just being honest and giving some friendly advice, like you are with me :cool:

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

This one is interesting ' any thoughts Dave' Marco '

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Technics-SP-20-direct-drive-audiophile-turntable-Rare_W0QQitemZ150390580053QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Au dioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables?hash=ite m2303fa2355

[DSJR]

Ooooh, that looks good :)

What a shame that the LP12 had such a stranglehold back then in the UK! After the Pinks and Voids etc, there was no room for the SP10 and its siblings :(

[chris@panteg]

Hi Dave

Take a look at this '

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Linn-Sondek-LP12-Turntable-modified_W0QQitemZ110461725879QQcmdZViewItemQQptZT urntable_Parts_Accessories?hash=item19b8082cb7

Was this something you were familiar with back then ? , i refer to the motor mod of course .

[DSJR]

I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole personally. Not because of the mod, which looks over-done to me, but because of the old sub-chassis, the tambourine like early plinth and probably (by now) knackered bearing (they didn't last *that* long, judging by my 1976 sample after six years or so).

Seriously, if anyone wants to explore the LP12 boogie factor, get a post 1986 model (80*** onwards) which has the better plinth and newer bearing pre-Cirkus.....

[chris@panteg]

I thought as much ' why peeps pay so much for these old original LP12 's does make me wonder :confused:

[Marco]

This one is interesting ' any thoughts Dave' Marco '

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Technics-SP-20-direct-drive-audiophile-turntable-Rare_W0QQitemZ150390580053QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Au dioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables?hash=ite m2303fa2355

Hi Chris,

This is one for Dave, as I've never seen an SP20 before... It would be interesting to know the difference in spec (if any) between it and the SP10 :)

Dave, over to you!

Marco.

[MartinT]

Mmm, I'd like to get a Dynavector or Triplanar arm on that SP20.

[Marco]

A plinth would be nice first, though :eyebrows:

Marco.

[MartinT]

Did you read the question placed in the eBay page? :)

[Marco]

Yes - it was quite funny!

Maybe I'm imagining it, but it doesn't look quite as 'substantial' as an SP10 - perhaps that's because it's not in a plinth, I don't know...

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

Well chaps, this is as close to a mystery as you might get. See http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Faudio-heritage.jp%2FTECHNICS%2Fetc%2Fsp-20.html&lp=ja_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

So It's a SP-10 right? wrong!!! The SP-10 looks the same, but has a huge external PSU. The SP-20 has a built in PSU, so how does it all fit in?

Look at the position of the switches, look familiar..................

Regards

Dave

[Mike]

Link doesn't work! :(

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Mike, run Explorer on a PC, and the link does work old chap.

Dave

[Marco]

Works fine for me (for a change!). Here's some info from the link:


The high performance was actualized by the fact that the development know-how of SP-10mkII is utilized, the quartz [hueizurotsukudokontororu] DD turntable.

Starting torque 1.5kg cm, prudence 2.5kg (inertial mass 345kg cm2) the large-sized turntable, from when starting with 1/4 revolutions is made speed limit revolution.

The powerful magnetic circuit with big starting torque, using 150 tone arms of stylus pressure, 2g there is no change of rotary speed. In addition, while performing also it is possible to use the cleaner.

Smooth stop of the turntable is actualized with the pure electronic brake.

The Strobo of the LED illumination by the stripe eye in the Ichijo one line is adopted.

The finish the special surface was processed and makes aluminum die-cast the [rinkuru] finish which prevents surface change.
　
Rating of type:

Type Direct drive turntable
Turntable 32cm aluminum die-cast make, 2.5kg
Inertial mass 345kg cm2
Motor Quartz phase locked control
Brush less DC motor
Drive system Direct drive
Rpm 331 /3, 45rpm
Wow flutter 0.025% (JIS C5521) W.R.M.S.
signal-noise ratio 60dB (IEC17B)
73dB (DIN45539B)
Starting torque 1.5kg cm
Starting time 0.7 seconds (90゜) within (331 /3rpm)
Brake Pure electronic brake
Load fluctuation Within 0% 1.5kg cm
Rpm deviation Within ±0.002%
Power source AC100V and 50Hz/60Hz
Electric power consumption 4W
External size Width 368.5× height 99× depth 368.5mm
Weight 8.0kg


Hi Dave,

If the SP20 has a built-in PSU, then in my view that makes it significantly worse than the SP10. Apart from anything else, we know from our experiments with the SL-1200/1210 just how sonically detrimental having a PSU (and associated magnetic field) is underneath the platter and in close proximity to a (possible) partnering MC cartridge.

One of your SP10s with an SP10 Time Step PSU would likely wipe the floor with it!

I suspect though that the rarity value for collectors may attract a few bidders.

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Its kind of like in between the SP15 and SP25 ' then i guess ' its quite astonishing really just how many turntables and motor units ' Technics and the other Jap company's produced .


There was also an SP12 ' which is as rare as hen's teeth

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/view_images.php?cat=Analog&catnick=analog&cfid=149664&image_id=1247741

[Marco]

That's very different and rather cool looking! :)

Marco.

[MartinT]

So it's more like a 1210?

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Martin, at last someone bothered to read my message! Well done!!!!!!

And thanks

Dave

[Marco]

Hi Martin, at last someone we bothered to read my message!


Eh? :scratch:

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

So you didn't read it either Marco?

Never mind, and me with the brain the size of a planet..........

Dave

[Mike]

Hi Mike, run Explorer on a PC, and the link does work old chap.

Dave

I did, and it didn't.

Working fine now though... :scratch:

[Marco]

So you didn't read it either Marco?

Never mind, and me with the brain the size of a planet..........


Do you mean this, Dave:


Look at the position of the switches, look familiar..................


If so, I see what you mean now, but at the time it flew right over my head. You're sometimes a wee bit too cryptic! ;)

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

Flew over my head Why? :scratch: Me cryptic? no way!! :)

There is often more between the lines of what I say, than there is in the lines themselves.............

But do they look familiar, the position that is?

I'm researching quite a lot on SP-10 and SL-1200, as you all know, there are a few Technics decks made out of very strange parts, masquerading with inappropriate model number series, and this is one of them.

Regards

Mystic Dave

[Marco]

There is often more between the lines of what I say, than there is in the lines themselves.............


Aye, you don't say!! :lol:

Marco.

[MartinT]

So they took an SP-10 chassis but lost the external PSU and loaded it with 1210 parts, motor and switches. Cheeky! Still, it's their product design but confusing for us punters.

[MartinT]

Oh and I particularly liked "using 150 tone arms of stylus pressure".

[TONEPUB]

Hi Marco

It is a pity your experience of shows is so limited (so far) Why not come to Munich or CES? Then you would be in a position of knowledge, and knowledge is power man!! Also the food is very good...............

I know of no Ushers that have been reviewed that are better than the expensive GumuT's, can you point me to a source? I believe you misunderstood the GumuT's, slim? no way! see the size of the drivers?? Wow!! You and some friends could live in one.

Your suspicions are thankfully incorrect! One of the best amps I have tried here was a pair of 300B monoblocks, the total cost was > £30K and they really rocked! I rarely if ever push any sort of power amplifier. But I do push Phono Stages, and the top runners in my very wide experience are Plinius, Whest Audio PS.30R and A.N.T. I have a lot of equipment passing through here on loan from manufactures, my experience is very wide and I can speak with authority on my visits to Munich and CES. You really, really must come next time and compare notes with me in real time. I can show you the light at the end of the tunnel, and take you there.

Regards

Dave (can you see my tongue firmly implanted in my cheek?)

Hi Dave:

I'm with you on the GamuT S-7's, my current reference speakers that are about to be replaced this month by the big boys, the S-9's! Whether they are the "world's best speakers" or not, they are my favorites.

But back to the bearing, with your new bearing, can it also be replaced with just a phillips screwdriver? Will definitely have to purchase one after the new year!

Can't wait. And am definitely going to try and make the Munich show this year....

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Jeff

I'm trying to get a customer to take a pair of S-7's, the factory will do a good price on two pairs, so one for me perhaps? I heard the S-9's at the show Marco was at. David Price (editor of Hi Fi World) agreed that they were without doubt one of the World's best speakers. The sheer scale of dynamics achieved with a third more 'bass driver cone area' than a single 15", was an experience not to be missed.

Right now my Focal 1038Be's with one third less cone area than a 15" unit, are now working exceptionally well. Stupidly I had them on each edge of a bay window, all the bass as they say "went out of the window" Now I have moved the contents of the room by 90 degrees I get thundering bass as Focal suggested. Still want a pair of S-7's though!

The bearing mod is 20 minutes, operation only from above, and only needs a Philips screwdriver.

Munich, a place to explore bold new worlds of Hi Fi, to watch listen and learn. Add you favourites up, consider the £450K credit card bill, and go home knowing your existing system isn't that bad after all. But no nagging doubts anymore, you have seen the light at the end of the tunnel, travelled there and seen the big picture!

Regards

Dave

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


I'm trying to get a customer to take a pair of S-7's, the factory will do a good price on two pairs, so one for me perhaps? I heard the S-9's at the show Marco was at. David Price (editor of Hi Fi World) agreed that they were without doubt one of the World's best speakers. The sheer scale of dynamics achieved with a third more 'bass driver cone area' than a single 15", was an experience not to be missed.


You must visit me sometime and listen to the Lockwoods (or perhaps come to the forthcoming Scalford Hall bake-off), because if you think what you heard there at Whittlebury Hall was impressive in the way you've described (which I heard too, so I can make the comparison), then quite clearly me old mucker, you ain't heard nothing yet! :eyebrows:

Regarding what you're alluding to with your observation of "a third more bass driver cone area than a single 15", theories are all good and well, but it's how things translate in the final analysis in the real world, that count – i.e. when you listen… That's the real proof of the pudding!

Like I've said before, the GamuTs were (by my standards) good but nowhere near as special as you're making out. You're of course entitled to disagree, and that's fine, but then you haven't heard the Lockwoods with Tannoy 15" Monitor Golds, which for me do all the GamuTs did and more at a mere fraction of the price ;)

Quite simply there is no way on this earth that I'd swap them for the GamuT S-9s, good as they are in their context.

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Marco

Of course you wouldn't swap, we all know that! Why would you? The comments certainly weren't directed at you. And I would not even attempt to persuade you, but fresh customers yes I would!!

But we are talking about new loudspeakers here, and until I hear some new Westminster's, GamuT is the way to go. And that is from experience of almost every make of new loudspeakers, gained by staying several nights in Munich to do the show for three days, and staying a lot longer at CES to evaluate everything there.

Regards

Dave

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


Of course you wouldn't swap, we all know that! Why would you?


Well, if they were unquestionably superior to my ears, (and I considered them to offer high SPPV), then I would. Nothing is forever :)

However, the above clearly isn't the case.


The comments certainly weren't directed at you.


I realised that, although you did mention my name. I was simply commenting and offering a different perspective for the benefits of our members, and since you were making a point which I didn't particularly agree with.


And I would not even attempt to persuade you, but fresh customers yes I would!!


And you'd be quite right to do so.

Marco.

P.S With regard to Westminsters, I don't think you'd like them, as despite being very talented in many areas, they exhibit rather more horn coloration than the Lockwoods (which in them is virtually absent); an effect which I suspect wouldn't sit entirely comfortably with the way you like music to be reproduced.

[TONEPUB]

Hi Marco

Of course you wouldn't swap, we all know that! Why would you? The comments certainly weren't directed at you. And I would not even attempt to persuade you, but fresh customers yes I would!!

But we are talking about new loudspeakers here, and until I hear some new Westminster's, GamuT is the way to go. And that is from experience of almost every make of new loudspeakers, gained by staying several nights in Munich to do the show for three days, and staying a lot longer at CES to evaluate everything there.

Regards

Dave

I definitely agree with you...

I love my S-7's. I've got ML CLX's, and a pair of Harbeth Mon 40.1's that I really enjoy, but the GamuT's really do it for me too. We have the new YG Anats in for review (very intriguing), the Focal Utopia Scalas (also very nice) and the Verity Sararstro II's, but I keep coming back to the overall balance of the GamuT, at least for my personal preference.

We'll definitely have to talk about that bearing!

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Marco

I didn't mention your name, honest mate!

Remember I was talking about new loudspeakers and hence to put the ball back into your court, if you reject the GaumuT which new speakers would you recommend to someone like me?

And for those following this thread, as of today I have the big Revolvers here on demo. if anyone wants a chocolate biscuit and a cup of tea?

Regards

Dave

[DSJR]

I'd recommend a pair of old Wharfedale Dentons in an attempt to deflate some (mine's bigger than yours) ego's :lolsign:

[MartinT]

LOL :)
Mine are bigger than most, but I started out with Wharfedale Chevins.

[Dave Cawley]

which new speakers

No one reads my posts............

Dave

[Marco]

Hi Marco

I didn't mention your name, honest mate!

Ahem (typed from your very keyboard earlier)...


I heard the S-9's at the show Marco was at.

:kiss:


Remember I was talking about new loudspeakers and hence to put the ball back into your court, if you reject the GaumuT which new speakers would you recommend to someone like me?


I wouldn't necessarily reject the GamuTs - they are very good; just not really 'my thang'...

Do you 'dig' high-quality large standmounts? If so, the Harbeth Monitor 40.1s are excellent. These feature 12" bass drivers and have a suitably visceral, open and highly musical sound:

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2659/m40large.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/m40large.jpg/)

More info here: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0801/harbeth40.htm



I also love these (ATC EL-150 SLP Towers):

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/2846/el150slp.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/i/el150slp.jpg/)

Spec and more info here: http://www.traveltraxaudio.com/atc/EL150SLP.htm

I think you'd love' em, too! They feature 15" drivers per side. You need to get into speakers which use 'proper' man-sized drive units, mate... One 15-incher per side is 'plenty', and far better than three piddly 8" or 10"s ;)

Wide baffle area rules!

Marco.

[MartinT]

2 x 12" per side here, plenty of air movement.

[Marco]

Indeed... I've told Dave that I much prefer the big Ushers to his Focals, too! ;)

In fact, I prefer the whole Usher range to anything Focal produce, save perhaps the Grande Utopia. I've no idea why he ditched Usher for Focal... :scratch: That was a bad move (in a sonic sense), IMO. Perhaps it was a better one in a business sense?

Ushers make a far nicer sound, IMO, and they also represent much superior SPPV.

Marco.

[MartinT]

Interesting. I came from Focal (Mezzo Utopias) to Usher (Be-20).

[Marco]

How would you describe the difference in their sonic signature/musical abilities, Martin?

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Marco

Have you heard the Focals, the Be20's or the EL150 SLP?

And yes, I did mention you, opppps!

Dave

[MartinT]

The Mezzo's main strength was its midrange. Transparent, uncoloured and gorgeous within a slightly cool presentation. I used to think the advanced Teoxid inverted dome Focal tweeter was sweet and extended, but the Usher's Beryllium tweeter is frankly in a different class with incredible detail and extension but not in-your-face at all.

In the midrange they are closest but the projection and focus of voice and sheer neutrality of the Usher wins the day, not to mention the latter's serious dynamic punch.

No contest in the bass. The Mezzo was impressive for a single 11" driver per side, but needed a REL Studio II subwoofer to reproduce the bottom octave for my beloved organ recordings. No such need with the Be-20, which is a large speaker for my room and benefits from good room treatment.

Build and finish-wise, both speakers are superb.

Overall the Mezzos were always on the slightly cool side of neutral. The Ushers are as near as dammit neutral or very slightly warm in their presentation and better match my preference for transistor electronics.

[DSJR]

The ATC SCM200ASL's have two 12" bass units and the 300A's have two 15" drivers. The dynamics are better than any donestic setup I've yet heard, but they're NOT an easy listen as they can reproduce the natural dynamics of a drum kit or trumpet or sax for example. The big PMC's are similar I'm told, although I've never heard the BB15's, surely light years ahead of blingy domestic stuff ?

[Dave Cawley]

I may be convinced yet! Marco, where did you hear the ATC EL150's?

Dave

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

LOL - tempting you, am I? :eyebrows:

Trust me, the big ATCs are the dogs danglies!

ECS (http://www.ecsamplifiers.co.uk/product1.aspx?id=11) demo'd them at a show a while back with their 200W EA-1 monoblocks (amps I used to own before going the valve route).

To say that the sound was staggering in a 'there's a live band in the room!' way was an understatement! :eek:

I've heard these too, and they're even naughtier (JBL K2)...

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8331/k2s9800dg.jpg (http://img267.imageshack.us/i/k2s9800dg.jpg/)

More info here: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-10313992-47.html

Marco.

P.S Martin, regarding Focal vs. Usher... I don't have as much direct experience as you, but from what I've heard of both I completely concur with your views!

[Dave Cawley]

JBL's look good, but way smaller than the GamuT, not sure I could live with that compromise? Which show did you hear the ATC's at? and where will they be showing next? Assume you haven't actually heard the Focal's though? You really should?

Dave

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

LOL... The JBLs might look 'small' in the picture but in the flesh they're humungous! ;)

It was at one of the London shows a few years ago that I heard the ATCs. I've no idea where they will be showing next, if at all. Do you fancy them, then? What are you going to do with the Focals? :)

I know Focal speakers pretty well. I heard some (Mezzos?) at Whittlebury Hall and I thought they sounded dreadful. However, I've heard them sound much better than that though at Acoustica in Chester. Mind you, those were the older models before the update.

I've also heard Micro and Mini Utopias, many times in various systems, and various models in the Elektra range, right up to the biggest floorstanders.

They're good in some respects, but a bit 'toppy' in the French tradition. I much prefer the overall, IMO, more natural balance of the Ushers (large and small), which I first heard in Hi-fi Sound in Darlington (now Stockton-on-Tees) a few years ago.

Marco.

[Marco]

Dave,

Jamo R909 open-baffles are also rather nice:

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/1355/jamor909.jpg (http://img692.imageshack.us/i/jamor909.jpg/)

More info here: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/jamo/909.html

I really like them in red (shown in the above link)! :eyebrows:

All the new speakers I've posted here (at your request) represent my cup of tea and what I consider as 'serious'.

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

In my youth, I had huge JBL's but the ones you suggested are not that big!! I'm looking way above Usher level, something with real bass and real drive, fast dynamics and little compression. At least two things contribute to that, a large bass cone area and a large cabinet, hence the GamuT's score so very well. I have heard them, and had an individual demo, it's no wonder the Worlds Hi Fi press like them. I need to hear the big ATC you suggest, hence my asking? My budget is up to £60K retail.

Dave

[Marco]

In my youth, I had huge JBL's but the ones you suggested are not that big!!


Then you need the DD66000EB Everests:

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/9300/jbls.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/i/jbls.jpg/)

More info here: http://www.jbl.com/EN-GB/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?PID=DD66000RW And here: http://www.price.ro/specificatii_jbl_dd66000eb_everest_rosewood_134546 .htm

Those should do the trick! :eyebrows:


something with real bass and real drive, fast dynamics and little compression. At least two things contribute to that, a large bass cone area and a large cabinet...


This I know... It's why I don't 'do' diddy little speakers!! ;)

Regarding the ATCs, contact Bob Polley - he's yer man :)

E-mail: bob@atc.gb.net. Phone: 01285 760561.

Marco.

[MartinT]

I'll bet they (the JBLs) can move air, they'd probably compression load the average room until your ears popped.

[Marco]

Indeed. I can get precisely that effect with my Lockwoods, when playing suitable material, and that's with a 30W Class A valve amp! :eyebrows:

30W Pure Class A into 95db 15" drivers in a relatively small room like mine, creates some serious SPLs... I was playing Rammstein's new album last night at 'silly' levels and it felt like I was being pinned to the wall and pummelled into oblivion by David Haye!

The Lockwoods are much smaller than those JBLs, of course, (44" high, 28" wide and 18" deep) but then so is my room fairly small... The speaker/room interaction is therefore such that a similar effect is achieved as that likely obtained by the JBLs when used in the humungous-sized room they deserve :)

Having been spoiled by efficient 15" drivers, I honestly now couldn't go back to anything smaller, although I'd imagine that your Ushers also pack a fairly hefty punch.

Marco.

[Alex_UK]

I was playing Rammstein's new album last night at 'silly' levels and it felt like I was being pinned to the wall and pummelled into oblivion by David Haye!

I hope it wasn't the box set... :eyebrows:

[The Grand Wazoo]

I hope it wasn't the box set... :eyebrows:

Ahem, yes! Being pummelled into oblivion by that new box set is not something I signed up for when I said I was interested in hi-fi..........I guess Marco must suffer for his art!! (...................or not, I dunno!)

[Marco]

I was playing Rammstein's new album last night at 'silly' levels and it felt like I was being pinned to the wall and pummelled into oblivion by David Haye!


Yes I realise now how this could've been interpreted - and, no, my arse canal hasn't been 'visited'! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[MartinT]

I'd imagine that your Ushers also pack a fairly hefty punch

They do indeed, my favourite 'pummelling' music being The Man-Machine from Kraftwerk's Minimum Maximum live album. The bass on that is really something.

[Alex_UK]

They do indeed, my favourite 'pummelling' music being The Man-Machine from Kraftwerk's Minimum Maximum live album. The bass on that is really something.

They're all at it - what sort of forum is this!? :lol:

[Marco]

http://www.smileys4me.com/getsmiley.php?show=3896

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

[chris@panteg]

http://www.smileys4me.com/getsmiley.php?show=3896

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

:lol:

[therockst4r]

Does anyone here actually have the box set? I have been hinting at it to friends as a possible birthday gift, but somehow I don't think they will be getting it for me :/

[Dave Cawley]

I have the boxed set, very nice it is too! Bought it on Amazon. The CD is quite good, have that too...................

Dave

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Martin

Just checked that track out, very good, but somehow the live versions Autobahn and The Model do it for me more!

You might light to try Jean Michael Jarre "Aero" throw the DVD away, keep the CD and revel in the über fast bass that only multiple bass drivers can do!!! :christmas:

Regards

Dave

[chris@panteg]

Hi Dave

I have been thinking about getting one of the bearing upgrades ' at the moment i am leaning towards your timestep option ' i think it will more than enough to keep me happy .

[Marco]

You might light to try Jean Michael Jarre "Aero" throw the DVD away, keep the CD and revel in the über fast bass that only multiple bass drivers can do!!!

...Or single 15-inchers per side in huge (wide front baffle) cabinets!! ;)

Yes, I've also got the Kraftwerk stuff, and it's a total riot...

For stunt bass, though, IMO nothing beats 'Electro Cardiogram'. When the bass line kicks in it's like a f*cking earthquake through the Tannoys - fast, deep, tight, and massively extended!!! :eyebrows: :eyebrows:

:rave:

:fingers: :fingers: :hairmetal: :hairmetal: :fingers: :fingers: :hairmetal: :hairmetal: :fingers:





ovCK97hFiSI

Enjoy!!

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

Or single 15-inchers per side in huge

TOOO slow man!:santa:

Let the debait begin?

There is more "real" bass on the start of Autobahn, can you feel it?

Dave

[Marco]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... There's nothing 'slow' about them!! You really must come up sometime, mate, so I can 'educate' you... You'll wet your pants :lol: :kiss:

Are you coming to Scalford Hall in March?

'Electro Cardiogram' is on Disc 4, Track 4 of the 'Minimum Maximum' box set, which I have on vinyl.

Marco.

[Marco]

There is more "real" bass on the start of Autobahn, can you feel it?


Yes, when the truck starts up... Feel it??? It's stomach-churning in its intensity.........

You could probably measure it on the Richter scale, baby!!! :lol: :gig:

Marco.

[Marco]

Have you listened to the track, Dave? :)

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

There is more "real" bass on the start of Autobahn, can you feel it?

I think that indicates I heard it! :eyebrows:

Guys, please read my posts carefully, otherwise I'll give up!!

Have you got Yello "Lost Again" on 12"?

Dave

[Marco]

There is more "real" bass on the start of Autobahn, can you feel it?



I think that indicates I heard it!

Guys, please read my posts carefully, otherwise I'll give up!!


LOL!! What are you like? I was referring to the other track 'Electro Cardiogram' on The 'Minumum Maximum' box set, not bloody Autobahn!! :doh:

Is this what it'll be like when I'm over 50? :lol: :lol:

;)

I asked you to listen to it - have you got it?

I'll check on the Yello 12" - should have it :)

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

Marco, I'm tired of this, please read my postings! Of course I heard 'Electro Cardiogram' , how else could I have compared it with Autobahn ? Autobahn if you look is also in your boxed set.

But I'm bowing out on this topic! Too much hard work.....

Respect

Dave

[Marco]

Marco, I'm tired of this, please read my e-mails!


What emails are you referring to, Dave? Did you dream them? :confused:

I've just checked, the last email I received from you was on 25th November about the A.N.T Audio award, etc...


Of course I heard 'Electro Cardiogram' , how else could I have compared it with Autobahn ? Autobahn if you look is also in your boxed set.


All I meant was if you'd listened to that particular track (Electro Cardiogram) yet, that's all. You might not have listened to every track on the box set if, for example, you've only recently got it - I don't know, do I??


But I'm bowing out on this topic! Too much hard work.....


I could say the same!!! Anyway............................................ .. :)

Marco.

[MartinT]

Peace, guys!

Now then, I've just played all four tracks at mega volume to satisfy my curiosity (I have the double CD set):

Honourable mention: The Model. Good tight upper-bass thwacks but not a lot of deep stuff going on.

3rd: Elektro Kardiogramm. Nice tight deep bass and the whole thing moves along at a swift pace (for a live recording, all these tracks are truly marvellous).

2nd: Autobahn. That truck starting up really starts to move air in my room and creates a proper impression of being half-way up its exhaust pipe.

1st: The Man-Machine. No doubt about it, the middle two instrumental sections create seismic movements of tectonic scale, threatening the doors and windows and making me fear for the structure of the house.

These are all great songs. My tuppence worth. Discuss!

BTW, Dave, I shall look up that JMJ pronto. Oh, and Yello's The Race on 12" is quite something too.

[dmckean]

JBL's look good, but way smaller than the GamuT, not sure I could live with that compromise? Which show did you hear the ATC's at? and where will they be showing next? Assume you haven't actually heard the Focal's though? You really should?

Dave

I've heard the Focals. I liked them enough to bring them home for a weekend audition from a local shop. I couldn't get the bass response I need from them though. My room is just too large.

Dave

[Dave Cawley]

Guys, guys, guys

When I said to Marco "please read my e-mails" I actually meant "please read my posts" and I altered that, but too late, Marco had correctly read that post!!

I take great care and attention on my posts. I have rather a lot of real world experience and a test area / laboratory that would disgrace a few Hi Fi Magazines (World/News excepted). I find it very difficult when anyone on any forum simply replies only to the last two posts, without reading the whole story. I sometimes think I'm wasting my time.

I also find it difficult to swallow, that the subjective people are fluent, but the technical people are reluctant to talk about real measurements, and they of all people really should be able to? This is a coment again about all forums, not just this one.

Then there is the "if it costs a lot of money, it's not good value" who cares! not me! I can't afford the best, but I do not try to kid myself that spending £100K+ would not improve my system.

Now I know this is the invitation to WW3, so bring it on? :sofa:

Regards

Dave

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for clearing that up. I knew you'd misunderstood me. But you not realising it, and stating the contrary, was beginning to make me think I was losing my mind!! :lol:

I think that you should start a new thread in Blank Canvas to discuss the points you've raised, as they deserve their own separate thread.

All I'd say with regard to this:


I take great care and attention on my posts. I have rather a lot of real world experience and a test area / laboratory that would disgrace a few Hi Fi Magazines (World/News excepted). I find it very difficult when anyone on any forum simply replies only to the last two posts, without reading the whole story. I sometimes think I'm wasting my time.


...Is that not everyone has the time (or inclination) to 'read the whole story' (whatever that may be). Often people just scan through things quickly, picking out the bits they're interested in, and so then sometimes miss information.

That's just human nature, I'm afraid, and why it's so important to be very clear and specific in your latest posts, not automatically assuming that people have read things exactly the same way as you. It also doesn't help when sometimes you are less than clear about what you mean ;)

For instance, I don't really understand what you mean by this:


I also find it difficult to swallow, that the subjective people are fluent, but the technical people are reluctant to talk about real measurements, and they of all people really should be able to?


:scratch:

Anyway, this is something for another thread. Feel free to copy and paste our latest entries here into a new thread and continue this discussion elsewhere :cool:

Marco.

[jonners]

Anyway, this is something for another thread. Feel free to copy and paste our latest entries here into a new thread and continue this discussion elsewhere :cool:

Marco.

I think the last ten pages or so should have been something for another thread! :rolleyes:

[Marco]

Yep, I agree. But there's 'thread drift' and there's real thread drift, if you see my meaning ;)

Marco.

[SteveW]

Yep, I agree. But there's 'thread drift' and there's real thread drift, if you see my meaning ;)

Marco.

OK... more to the point...or what I was originally hoping the thread was about...

When is someone going to tell me/ review the new bearing ?? How does it compare...with the original, versus other decks now etc.

Thankyou.

[Marco]

That's what I'm after too, Steve. However, Martin (who I believe is the only AoS member so far to have ordered one - Dave can correct me on this if necessary) hasn't received it yet.

When he does, he's already promised to review it :)

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Yes that's what i am interested in finding out ' i think the Kraftwerk malarkey can be sorted out at Scalford ' perhaps , handbag's at dawn ! .

[MartinT]

Yes, I will review the bearing when I've received it. Xmas pressie for me!

I was enjoying the Kraftwerk shootout... :)

[chris@panteg]

Guy's a question to everyone with a 1200 in any form using the stock bearing .

Have you ever oiled the main bearing and if so how often .

You see i did mine yesterday (1st time since JAN) and:eek: it was as though my techy had gone out of focus ' sounding a bit smeared , .

It was quite a shock ' i do realize now that the new timestep and Mike New offering will eliminate this inconsistency ' although the stock bearing sounds great but i think ' Technics every 2'000 hours is way off the mark ' for me more like every 6 months or less .

Any thoughts guy's .

[DSJR]

The standard bearing appears to have the cutout that originally fed the auto-cam on the old auto models (1300/1400 mk2 etc). My SL-150 bearing is totally enclosed although I suspect it's the same inside. A drop or two on the thrust pad *shouldn't* leech away but if you use too much, it will (I learned from my horology interest).

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0462.jpg

[MartinT]

Chris - I haven't tried oiling my bearing but only because my SL-1210 is only about six months old. I'm not going to disturb it now until I get the Mike New bearing.

[MartinT]

Hey, that was my 500th post!

Do I get the equivalent of an eBay blue star?

[Marco]

Congrats, Martin! When you get to 5000, we might consider it! :lol:

In the meantime, would like a custom-user title of some description to commemorate your small but significant landmark? :)

Marco.

[MartinT]

Aww, thanks Marco. I feel properly initiated now.

[Themis]

I passed 1000 without even noticing it... :(

[MartinT]

It's all about quality, Dimitri :)

[Marco]

Aww, thanks Marco. I feel properly initiated now.

You're welcome :)

If anyone else would like a custom user-title, just ask!

Marco.

[dogpile]

I would like to hear from those who went from the stock bearing to the Timestep bearing and what the differences were.

I'm quite happy with the stock bearing, however, I am always looking for ways to make this table sing better.

Is this a worthwhile upgrade :scratch:

[MartinT]

I believe Chris of this parish is using the Timestep bearing.

[chris@panteg]

Yes i have the Timestep bearing ' its a very good value for money upgrade, just take into consideration its not suitable for use with the Mike New heavy platter ! as i understand it.

In my opinion it improves the bass quite markedly , being clearer and more controlled but also a much better sense of depth and clarity , more space around everything, alowing you to follow the various strands in the music.

In fact i would say i think it could be all you need ,add in a better psu and arm+cart of your choice , the right mat and just sit back and take it no further .

I just think that with the Mike New bearing and platter ,another £1100 or so pushes it into SP10 price range and unless convinced otherwise ' that despite the servicing cost and so on is a superior option ! but that's just my Opinion .

My deck with the mods i have done is still less than a Spacedeck which the current version retails for around £1200 give or take , mine less arm is just a shade under £1000 .

1210 £320

Timestep psu £300
Bearing £150
Isonoe feet £90
Mat £80

Actually quite a bit less £940 and for the money an excellent table , the Bearing upgrade is no brainer but i strongly recommend getting an outboard psu with it:)

[Marco]

Hi 'dogpile',

Welcome to AOS :)

What's your first name? When you get a chance, please add it to the signature on your profile. Thanks, and enjoy! :cool:

Marco.

[dogpile]

Chris. Thanks for the detailed comments on the Timestep bearing. I want the bearing and psu but can't decide which yet (can't afford both right now).

- Can you tell me if the Timestep spindle is longer than the Technics?

- Do you think the psu will have a greater impact and sonic improvement over the bearing mod?

Thanks :cool:

[chris@panteg]

Hi
What is your 1st name BTW , Dogpile kind of reminds too much of what happened last sunday after 3 pm lol.

The bearing is a straight swap , no difference in length as Dave uses the the original bearing housing ' you drop in a PTFE pad and ceramic ball, 10 drops or so of oil and finally the spiindle shaft ' which is a very tight fit , then run in for about 80 hours for maximum improvement.

The PSU makes a bigger improvement as it not only improves the deck but also the cartridge as the built in psu gives off a magnectic field , whcich does no favours for an MC especially .

If funds are a little tight ' the bearing mod is a great place to start i recommend it wholeheartedly , 2 points! don't put too much oil in or if you do make sure you clean off the excess , 2nd point when removing the platter press down lightly on the spindle otherwise the bearing will come out with the platter , but dave provides all the instructions anyway.

I think you will like it , then save up for the PSU perhaps the HE version will be worth the extra .

[dogpile]

Chris. Thanks for the advice and comments... you've convinced me. I will start saving and get both.

PS. You mentioned the HE version. Any experience with this psu? I can't seem to find any info from users.

:cheers:

[chris@panteg]

Hi Harry

Well its probably just a well to go for the standard version , but here is a recent thread with some pics ' there are of course other psu's to consider such as the Paul Hynes .

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6369

[Gdg]

Hi Harry

Well its probably just a well to go for the standard version , but here is a recent thread with some pics ' there are of course other psu's to consider such as the Paul Hynes .

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6369

I quite don't remember if Marco said that in same thread, but which Paul Hynes' PSU fit the SL 1200?
He has many with different prices:
http://www.paulhynesdesign.com/index.html

[Marco]

It's the SR3 or SR5 PSU for the Techie :)

Marco.

[DSJR]

Can he supply them in kit form for us impoverished paupers? ;)

[Gdg]

It's the SR3 or SR5 PSU for the Techie :)

Marco.

Uhm... I can't find them on the Pauls' web site.
But if the SR2 costs 510 GBP, I can guess the SR3/SR5 should cost much more. Is that right?

[Citation16]

http://www.stantondj.com/v2/prod_st150.asp

Do any of you have a Stanton 150 turntable? It seems to be made by the same people as the technics and look very similar.

So similar, I would bet it has the same bearing & platter..

Could it accomodate an outboard power supply and a custom bearing and platter??

very curious about the Stanton

Yves

[Marco]

Hi Giovanni,


Uhm... I can't find them on the Pauls' web site.
But if the SR2 costs 510 GBP, I can guess the SR3/SR5 should cost much more. Is that right?

I'm not sure that's right in terms of cost. Best to PM Paul and check - he's a member here and very helpful :)

Marco.

[Gdg]

http://www.stantondj.com/v2/prod_st150.asp

Do any of you have a Stanton 150 turntable? It seems to be made by the same people as the technics and look very similar.

So similar, I would bet it has the same bearing & platter..

Could it accomodate an outboard power supply and a custom bearing and platter??

very curious about the Stanton

Yves

Yves, just read this thread, and you'll get your answer ;)

[Gdg]

Hi Giovanni,
I'm not sure that's right in terms of cost. Best to PM Paul and check - he's a member here and very helpful :)

Marco.

Marco, you know I got the Soundhifi HE I (Dave Cawley will upgrade to II for free), not too long ago, so I'm not changing it (...well, not in the short term).

Anyway, I think it is a good thing, for all the forumers willing to buy a new PSU for their SL 1200, to know the cost/benefit ratio. To me is not enough to say "PSU X is better than PSU Y", if X costs the double of Y, well, maybe I'll get Y...
*BUT* (this is the point) I'll be very happy if X is better than Y *AND* costs the same or less. ;)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

he sounds pretty damn confident about the HE and even MORE confident about the HEii ... tis interesting
(trying not to be a spokes person)

[Gdg]

he sounds pretty damn confident about the HE and even MORE confident about the HEii ... tis interesting
(trying not to be a spokes person)

'He' who ?

OT: wow Hamish, wonderful photos you did :stalks:

[colinB]

Can he supply them in kit form for us impoverished paupers? ;)

SR3 £125 kit.

[Marco]

he sounds pretty damn confident about the HE and even MORE confident about the HEii ... tis interesting
(trying not to be a spokes person)


Well he would be, Hamish. Dave's never exactly been 'shy' about proclaiming his Technics mods as best!! He is, after all, the self-proclaimed 'World's leading SL-1200 expert'!! ;)

IME, sometimes his mods are best, sometimes not. When I think they are the best I acknowledge them as such, and equally so when, IMO, they are not. I am no-one's loyal 'fanboy', and so I like to keep my options open. Experience shows it usually provides dividends.

It certainly did when I decided to audition the Paul Hynes SR3, which in my system, quite frankly, grossly outperforms the stock Timestep PSU, excellent though it is in its own right. Sometimes certain people have the edge in areas of design over others, and in my experience so far, Paul's T/T PSU designs are superior to Dave's.

I've no doubt whatsoever that the HE (and HEii - why not just build the best he can first time and be done with it? :scratch:) are excellent products and significantly improve the performance of the SL-1200/1210. Dave will certainly have put a lot of R&D into their design.

However, as ever, the proof of the pudding is in the listening, so I will judge the HE (and HEii when it is available) against the Paul Hynes SR5 and the Tube Distinctions Revelation, and as ever form my own opinion from practical experience before arriving at any definitive opinions on which is best - and in the end it will only be 'best' to my ears in the context of my system :)

Marco.

[Hypnotoad]

Hey, that was my 500th post!

Do I get the equivalent of an eBay blue star?

I just past 100.

Maybe there should be a Bronze Medallion for 100+, Silver for 1000+ and Gold for 10,000+?

Just a thought.:eyebrows:

[MartinT]

I'm a little further along now and still no stars, medallions or even handwritten tick :(

[DSJR]

The higher the post count, the tighter the straight-jacket will be when the men in black suits come to call.

[Marco]

I'm a little further along now and still no stars, medallions or even handwritten tick :(

There's a special outfit on its way when you get to 2000! ;)

Marco.

[Barry]

There's a special outfit on its way when you get to 2000! ;)

Marco.

Do we all get one?

[Marco]

Aren't you allergic to taffeta, shweety? :eyebrows:

Marco.

[MartinT]

There's a special outfit on its way when you get to 2000! ;)

Hmm, I've seen what they did to Adrian Brody in "The Jacket"...