View Full Version : the more i read the less i understand
just doing a bit of googling about philips cd-850 player.
well to what i can gather it has the TD1541A chip.
lampizator says
After trying many various DAC chips, I found myself to have a preference for one particular chip. Much has been written about TDA1541A DAC all over the world, but I found it without prior opinion seeking - just by my ears. It is funny for a mere electronic component to be worshiped like an object of religion, but this chip is such rare case. Augmented by the fact, that they are no more in production. The chip TDA1541, and especially the single crown selection S1 and TDA1541A/S2 is so desired that there are counterfeit chips on second hand market and unfortunately on ebay too.
AND THEN THIS BY
By realspin / April 12, 2013 / compact disc
To get a gauge of how significant the SAA7350 (and its ilk) were, it’s interesting to hear a non-Bitstream DAC now. You soon realise how odd, or perhaps I should say, ‘exotic’, a TDA1541 DAC now sounds; in today’s hi-fi world where Bitstream is ubiquitous, the first Philips 16-bit ‘multibit’ DAC is a truly racy, thrilling and yet horribly compromised thing. Two dimensional, edgy, glassy, characterful and extremely rhythmically engaging, it’s a bit like going back to twin carburettors in a world of fuel injected car engines. It’s tonally troublesome, musically temperamental and not to everyone’s taste. The SAA7350 aspirated Philips CD850 II is, by comparision, neat and tidy and refined – just like every other modern silver disc spinner. This is how it started.
exotic/racy/thrilling/horribly compromised/two dimensional/edgy/glassy/characterful/extremely rhythmicly engaging.
was he smokoing pot to describe this or snorting crack the terminolgy he uses is beyond me
Ali Tait
06-03-2015, 21:54
Not really. It's just personal preference. Thing to do is ignore all that is written, and go with what sounds best to you (IMHO)
Yep, I quite like the chip tbh but have other preferences above it. For a cd player using its own dac though the philips cd players using it were pretty decent.
Ali Tait
06-03-2015, 22:03
It's not just the chip though, it's how it's implemented. The best sounding thing in the world will sound crap in such a situation to my mind.
well here is a list of payers using that chip TDA1514
some big names amongst them:scratch:
The short list of CD players which have TDA1541A chip.
ACOUSTIC RESEARCH CD-06SE TDA1541A CDM-4
ADCOM GCD-575 TDA1541A KSS-212B
ARCAM ALPHA TDA1541A
ARCAM ALPHA 5 PLUS TDA1541A CDM-9
ARCAM ALPHA PLUS TDA1541A
ARCAM DELTA 70.2 TDA1541-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-4/11 / CDM-4/31
ARCAM DELTA BOX 1 TDA1541A
Bang & Olufsen Beogram CDX2 TDA1541A – SAA7220 CDM-2
Bang & Olufsen CD5500 TDA1541A CDM-4/11
CAMBRIDGE AUDIO CD2 4 x TDA1541 – SAA7220 CDM-2/10
Cambridge Audio CD3 (4 x TDA1541 and CDM1 MKII)
CREEK CD60 TDA1541A-S1 – SAA7220P/B CDM-4/14
GRUNDIG CD9009 2xTDA1541A/S1 CDM1mkII
LUXMAN D-500X’s II TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-3
MARANTZ CD-12 TDA1541A-S2 (Double Crown) CDM-1
MARANTZ CD7 TDA1541AS2 (double crown) CDM 12.3
MARANTZ CD80 TDA1541A/S1/Q CDM1mkII
MARANTZ CD-85 TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1 Mk II
MARANTZ CD880J TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1 Mk II
MARANTZ CD94 TDA1541A CDM1
MARANTZ CD94mkII
TDA1541A/S1 CDM1
MARANTZ CD-99SE 2 x TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1
MARANTZ CDA 94 TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) It’s a DAC
Marantz KI CD10, 11, 16.
Non KI don't count... they are TDA1547
MARANTZ PROJECT D-1 2 x TDA1541A-S2 (Double Crown) It’s a DAC
Meridian 206 mkII
MCINTOSH MCD7005 TDA1541A CDM-2/10
MCINTOSH MCD7007 TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1
MERIDIAN 206 TDA1541
MERIDIAN 207 TDA1541A-S2 (Double Crown) CDM-1 / CDM-4
NAIM AUDIO CD1 TDA1541 CDM-2
NAIM AUDIO CD2 TDA1541A CDM-9
NAIM AUDIO CD3 TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-9
NAIM AUDIO CDI TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-4/27 / CDM-9 Pro
NAIM AUDIO CDS1 TDA1541-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-4/25
NAKAMICHI CDP-2E TDA1541A – CXD1088
NEC CD-10 2 x TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) KSS-150A
NEC CD-816 2 x TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) KSS-150A
NEC CD-830DS 2 x TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown)
ORELLE CD100SE TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-4
PHILIPS CD350 Mk II TDA1541-S1 CDM-2/10 / CDM-2/29
PHILIPS CD-80 TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1 Mk II
PHILIPS CD-85 TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1 Mk II
PHILIPS CD-880 TDA1541A/S1/Q CDM 1mkII
PHILIPS LHH1000 TDA1541A-S1 (Double Crown) CDM-1
PIONEER PD-8070 TDA1541
QUAD 66
TDA1541A CDM-9
ROTEL RCD-820 TDA1541
ROTEL RCD-855 TDA1541A-S1 CDM-4/19
ROTEL RCD-955 TDA1541 CDM-4
ROTEL RCD-955AX TDA1541A – SAA7220P/B CDM-4
SONY CDP-207ESD 1 x TDA1541 – CXD1088 KSS-150A
SONY CDP-301V TDA1541 – CXD1088 KSS-210A
SONY CDP-333ESD 1 x TDA1541 – CXD1088 Sony BU-1E
SONY CDP-337ESD 2 x TDA1541A – CXD1144 KSS-190A
SONY CDP-507ESD 2 x TDA1541 – CXD1144 KSS-151A / KSS-190A
SONY CDP-555ESD 1 x TDA1541A – CXD1088 Sony BU-1E
SONY CDP-605ESD TDA1541 – CXD1088 Sony BU-1E
SONY CDP-68 TDA1541 – CXD1088 KSS-210
SONY CDP-910 TDA1541A – CXD1088 KSS-151A
SONY CDP-M75 TDA1541 – CXD1088 KSS-210A
SONY CDP-M95 TDA1541 – CXD1088 KSS-210A
SONY DAS-R1 TDA1541AS1 (single crown)
SONY DAS-R1 2 x TDA1541A-S1 – CXD1144 It’s a DAC
STUDER A727 TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) CDM-1
STUDER A730 TDA1541A-S1 (Double Crown) CDM-3
SUDGEN SDT-1 TDA1541AS1 (single crown)
SUGDEN MASTERCLASS TDA1541A-S-Crown – SAA7220 CDM 12.1
TEAC CD-Z5000 2 x TDA1541A KSS-210A
TEAC D-500 2 x TDA1541A-S1 – SM5813 It’s a DAC
It's not just the chip though, it's how it's implemented. The best sounding thing in the world will sound crap in such a situation to my mind.
never a truer word spoken.
as i have learned in a different hobby, its what you do with them that counts.
but having the goods to start with to do as one pleases is essential and the only downfall is the beholder
Ali Tait
06-03-2015, 22:21
Indeed. There is a lot of hype talked about this chip. From what I've heard, done well, it is very good.
But then, so are many other things.
I like the implementations in my Naim CDI & Marantz cd40 players.
Spectral Morn
07-03-2015, 13:00
I have a Marantz CD94mk2 and Marantz CD7 and love what they do but what that guy describes is not what I hear. The only thing that a TDA1541 can have is a wee hint of grit in the very upper treble - you can hear it on cymbal shimmer and decay.
The other issue is operating temperature, these DACs in my experience perform best when left on. I know I have been taken to task for saying this before but it is to my ears an audible thing, with TDA1541 using CD players improving in sound the longer they are left on.
Best implementation re modern times is the AMRcd77 fabulous sounding CD player. Zanden did one too but I haven't heard it.
Regards Neil
Ali’s absolutely right: the magic is mostly in the implementation of the chip within a circuit, not in the chip itself. I have the S1 double-crowns in my Sony DAS-R1 DAC, albeit which is heavily modified throughout, by Audiocom.
However….. Properly implemented (and judicious attention to power supply arrangements is paramount, in order to get the most from the TDA-1541), in my experience, the organic, almost addictive, ‘analogue’ sound it produces has never been equalled by any currently produced DAC chip, although those have some sonic advantages in other areas. As ever, you pays your money and takes your choice.
The fact is, though, what you’re essentially hearing is the difference between multi-bit and bitstream, the latter which we were conned into believing was ‘universally superior’, in the same way as were were ‘in the old days’, that VHS was, compared with Betamax, when quite the opposite was true….. In the end, commercialism dictates reality, so you get what the ‘big boys’ want to give you, not necessarily what is best.
Marco.
I am using a Burr Brown PCM63P-K chip at moment.
StanleyB
07-03-2015, 13:09
As far as I can remember from my engineering days working on Philips CD players, the TDA1541 came in various packaging sizes with different amount of pins. And each one sounded different. The most common ones that Philips themselves used was the one fitted to such likes as the CD160 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PHILIPS-CD160-VINTAGE-CD-PLAYER-TDA1541-CDM-2-10-MECHANISM-CD-160-TDA1541A-/261793336961?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3cf4194e81) with its 4x oversampling feature. Then you had the TDA1541 as used in the CD150. For the top of the range CD960 you had the larger version of the TDA1541.
It is fascinating to me that a chip designed in the 80s was only brought to its full potential past the 2000s.
I have some experiences of the idiosyncratic TDA1541A DAC, and my main observations are:
- I am surprised that Philips & Marantz even got these DACs to work given the poor grounding and horrendous power supplies, miles away from the chips and heavily shared. Couple this with sub-standard, noisy and hungry digital filters (sharing the power supplies) and you have a recipe for gritty and muddy sound.
- Sony did a lot better, with dedicated supplies close to the chips and better grounding, but too bad Philips transports were better.
- The major advancement in TDA1541A sound comes from synchronous DEM reclocking, which is not found on *any* TDA1541A machines apart from the AMR CD-77, Audial Model, some DIY kits & modders. Usually the DEM clock is powered by a ceramic cap between two chip pins, but when a dedicated clock is added the following observations are met: Sometimes TDA1541A could be accused of being a bit mushy or not as exposive in the bass end, not anymore. Overall greater sense of scale, dynamics and less grain, in other words seems like a key limitation of the TDA1541A was resolved.
- TDA1541A with an old digital filter is not the solution as these filters add smear and signature. The solution is to remove the digital filter entirely, and go "NOS". This is very contentious, however, my media PC setup allows me to oversample files to 88.2kHz - and do digital filtering in software - so I don't think technical limitations of NOS should just be: "treble droop".
The problem with going NOS as a mod is that the opamp feedback output stages that often appear e.g. in Philips, Marantz, Sony players simply cannot handing the higher signal slopes (effectively square wave rise times instead of filtered smooth sines), so you get a lot of intermodulation distortion from the interaction between DAC and output stage.
The solution is to have an extremely high bandwidth, zero feedback output stage, which is what you see AMR & Audial doing.
...in other words, there are modern designs out there that truly show the potential of this awkward and extremely difficult to optimise chip.
Hi Neil,
...in other words, there are modern designs out there that truly show the potential of this awkward and extremely difficult to optimise chip.
Totally agree, especially with the bit in bold! Get it right, however, and the sonic results are truly magical :)
I’ve not heard the AMR or Zanden, but I’d certainly be willing to put my re-clocked and Audiocom-modified SonyX-777ES/DAS-R1 up against it, and see what would happen! ;)
Marco.
My Micro Seiki (based on the common OEM platform that the CD94 and Philips 960 used) was sounding amazing back in 1998, but I have to agree that this chipset was easily misused and so many players (including mine) seemed sensitive to, and sprayed out as well, loads of ultra-sonic and rf 'mush' that many amps of the period didn't like. I honestly can't say that it's the chipset that makes the difference either, but again, HOW it's used, since I've heard so many lovely players over the years, even if they have got more 'plasticky' as time's gone on.
Loads more to it than that though I think...
Hi Neil,
Totally agree, especially with the bit in bold! Get it right, however, and the sonic results are truly magical :)
I’ve not heard the AMR or Zanden, but I’d certainly be willing to put my re-clocked and Audiocom-modified SonyX-777ES/DAS-R1 up against it, and see what would happen! ;)
Marco.
Yes, my second point in my original post was about how Sony were much better with the TDA1541A, and the DAS-R1 is indeed their statement with what they could do - it's easy to see all the independent power supplies in this DAC and attention paid to it compared to consumer players, which can't get the most of out the TDA1541A anyway. The DAS-R1 also dispenses with early Philips digital filtering and Sony transport long-term reliability, so indeed I would love to have time to listen to this DAC and a current production TDA1541A DAC. :)
Am living in Warrington used to live in Chester, Wrexham isn't far away, perhaps when the weather is nicer?
Absolutely no problem, matey - you’d be most welcome :) The Audiocom mods took the DAC to another sonic level entirely. In bake-offs, I’ve put it up against modern DACs costing many thousands of pounds, and it never disgraces itself!
We sometimes go to the Ikea in Warrington, and to a rather excellent small, family-run Italian pizzeria afterwards, called Donatello, in Orford Lane: http://www.yelp.com/biz/donatello-pizzeria-warrington
It’s kind of off the beaten track, though. Dunno if you know it?
Marco.
Hi Marco I know Orford Lane and have seen the restaurant, never been there though, so now I will as I can only assume they have a real wood fired pizza oven there as this is how you get "high end" pizza ha ha ha.
Lol - they do indeed have a proper real wood-fired oven, otherwise I wouldn’t entertain eating pizza in this country.
Highly recommended! But, if you go, tell the waiter *exactly* how you like your pizza, when you order it and you state the toppings you want, (in terms of quantity of cheese or tomato paste, how you prefer the dough, thin and crispy or whatever), and it’ll be tailored exactly to your requirements :)
Let me know when you fancy a music sesh, too! :cool:
Marco.
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