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DaveK
27-08-2009, 20:52
Hi guys,
For those very few of you that are not already aware - can't be many :lolsign: - I've just taken delivery, at long last, of my Techie TT. It's ex hard house DJ kit via a wannabe DJ (I suspect). Fitted it with a new catridge and headshell, as recommended and set up by Marco, and now enjoying the experience.
Being a Neil Diamond fan I recently paid 99p off eBay (no P&P, local seller) for His Twelve Greatest Hits LP in not very good condition. Given it a good wash in very dilute washing up liquid and scrubbed it with a very soft clean paint brush and it STILL crackles like hell but ......
despite the bloody crackles it's MAGIC !! :gig: - even with the continual crackles I'd rather listen to this LP than any of the various CDs I have by him. None of the songs are new, only the vinyl 'presentation' of them.
Have I got some sort of hearing or mental problem? (please limit your answers solely to the evidence above, if you'd be so kind :lol: ) - if so, I'd rather not take the cure, let me suffer, please :lolsign::lolsign: .
Cheers,

PS Marco: Thanks for the relatively minor part ( ;) ) that you've played in this situation.

Spectral Morn
27-08-2009, 21:06
Well if your ill Dave then so am I.



Regards D S D L

DaveK
27-08-2009, 21:16
Well if your ill Dave then so am I.



Regards D S D L

Hi Neil,
Sorry, don't recall whether it was you that recommended TG's Phaedra to me but I wasn't initially impressed you may recall, just 'Noise' I think I said.
Now listening to it on the Techie - might actually change my mind - I must be ill !!:)
Cheers,

Spectral Morn
27-08-2009, 21:18
Hi Neil,
Sorry, don't recall whether it was you that recommended TG's Phaedra to me but I wasn't initially impressed you may recall, just 'Noise' I think I said.
Now listening to it on the Techie - might actually change my mind - I must be ill !!:)
Cheers,

No I suspect that was DSJR Dave....enjoy the music (whatever that might be)thats what is all about at the end of the day.


Regards D S D L

The Vinyl Adventure
27-08-2009, 22:14
There are 2 infectious equipment deseases go round this place ... See my signature

The Vinyl Adventure
27-08-2009, 22:14
I've just realised how crap the grammer is in my signature

The Vinyl Adventure
27-08-2009, 22:20
That's better! I know you are talking about the listening of vinyl, but I'm talking about the 1210 and Beresford purchase infection!....

DaveK
27-08-2009, 22:37
That's better! I know you are talking about the listening of vinyl, but I'm talking about the 1210 and Beresford purchase infection!....

No probs Hamish,
We're used to your unique command of the language, particularly late at night when the typing finger is improved, but perhaps not the eyesight, by some very enjoyable throat lubrication.
Enjoy,

The Grand Wazoo
27-08-2009, 22:43
When I make a spelling mistake & it's commented on by someone, I tell them that I'm using the Elizabethan spelling.

Back then, they didn't give a hoot about 'correct' spelling - you used phonetics. Many documents have the same word spelt several different ways in the same paragraph. Shakespeare spelt his name several different ways.

The Vinyl Adventure
27-08-2009, 23:00
cheers chris... i now have the perfect excuse :)

Alex_UK
27-08-2009, 23:08
Vinyl Flu?

The Vinyl Adventure
27-08-2009, 23:09
vynil floo?

The Vinyl Adventure
27-08-2009, 23:10
i crack my self up sometimes!!

Varun
28-08-2009, 06:14
Hello DaveC,

One of the better liquids for cleaning records may be the American "The Disc Doctor's Miracle Record Cleaner". It comes with brushes and the liquid is said to be quite effective but not meant to be used in a VPI 16.5 as it blocks the tubes.

I used to use this stuff, putting the LP on a carcass of a DD JVC I think. Rotate the plater by hand clean the record so that there is no spillage, then rinse it and then leave it to drain in the kitchen draing rack. A better method may be some form of suction to take the liquid off the surface.

The crackles will last a while and then they settle- but then the anti-static Milty gun in my case does not work-may be I do not know how to use it- yet another tool.

And then there is Groove Glide also.

StanleyB
28-08-2009, 08:35
I got a few cleaning items, including cleaning arm, that I occasionally sell on eBay. The cleaning kit is in the pic. I don't have a pic of the cleaning arm right now.

http://beresford.me/images/aiw.jpg

PM me for price on the kit and the arm. I have about 4 of each if anyone is interested.

Stan

Marco
28-08-2009, 08:50
PS Marco: Thanks for the relatively minor part ( ;) ) that you've played in this situation.

You're welcome, muchacho :smoking:

Glad you're enjoying the Techy. I recommended the Nagaoka cartridge (an excellent and relatively unknown beastie) and Sumiko headshell because I thought that they'd work very well on the stock Technics arm.

It's a great arm for MM carts, but not so good with MCs, so that's why I thought it best not to go down the route of budget MCs, as they'd likely show some limitations of the arm. It's all about the sum of the parts, and all that... :)

Did you manage to set the arm height correctly, VTF, etc?

Marco.

StanleyB
28-08-2009, 08:59
I recommended the Nagaoka cartridge (an excellent and relatively unknown beastie)
With the boron shank. But that's harder to find than a partridge in a pear tree...

Marco
28-08-2009, 09:16
Hi Stan,

No, I'm talking about the current range, shown here:

http://www.musonic.co.uk/cartridges-nagaoka-c-4_22.html

All are excellent and available, but relatively undiscovered yet. Dave's got the MP-110 :)

Marco.

REM
28-08-2009, 11:07
I used a Nagaoka MP11, IIRC, back in the early 80s on a Rega 3 with the R200 arm, excellent combination with a good 'weighty' sound but with a nice portrayal of rhythm, could have been made for Bob Marley:smoking:
Good to see the range back, Analogue Seduction sell them as well.:)

Cheers

DSJR
28-08-2009, 11:48
When you get vinyl to work well, it should get you going to get the CD side better. When the CD/digital side shows up the vinyl, you go back to tweaking the turntable system. If you know the masters, you either abandon LP's altogether or work like fugg to get them to work properly :)

Dave C, Phaedra really does sound best on the 1990's remastered CD, as early LP's sounded stodgy and later ones were cut from a digital tape with a nasty edit half way through the title track... You could get the Nimbus cut 70-80 box set, which sounds good, allowing for a bit of treble lift in the cut (the chap from "www.skyemastering.com" Dennis Blackham almost certainly cut these).

I appreciate that my Dual 701 (currently with Ortofon M20e Super) is more Rega 3 than exalted race tuned SL1200, but I mst say that in seconds I can forget the vinyl playing, allowing for the fact that when I go to the CD player, the dynamics and "drama" is much greater on my system - the old CD player was quite exceptional at the time and used to sound better than the popular models under £3K except possibly the Copland 288/289 and krell KSP28..

DaveK
28-08-2009, 17:48
You're welcome, muchacho :smoking:
Did you manage to set the arm height correctly, VTF, etc?
Marco.

Hi Marco,
Sorry for the delayed response - too busy enjoying the Techie :) :) .
The Techie came with an Operators Manual in equally good nick and I followed the instruction to the letter as far as setting the arm height is concerned, and it seemed ok but ......
I also set the anti skating control to match the stylus pressure, also as per manual but ....
When I tried to position the stylus over the 'run in' to the first track the arm insisted on slowly gliding back to the rest position. The only way I could persuade it to hold it's position was to move the counterbalance weight slightly inboard so that the tonearm was slightly 'cartridge down'. And YES the TT and platter were dead level both ways according to TWO spirit levels I checked it with :ner: :ner: :ner: . Other than that minor problem everything went as I believe it should.
Cheers,

Marco
28-08-2009, 18:07
Hi Dave,

Mmm... How are you setting VTF - with a proper stylus pressure gauge or via the arm's own adjustment? And what VTF setting did you settle on?

It sounds to me that you've set the downforce too light, or the bearings on the arm are shot. I sincerely hope it's the former...

Marco.

DaveK
28-08-2009, 23:06
Hi again Marco,
I assume that what you call VTF is what the manual refers to as Stylus Pressure, in which case I am setting it via the arm's own ajustment.
With regards to the loading, the leaflet included with the cartridge advised a range of 1.5 to 2.0 grms. so I set it at 1.75 grms.
Two further questions: -
1) the cartridge leaflet advised an overhang of 52 mms - I notice you had set mine to 47 mms - I take it that's as a result of your experience and setting up process?
2) on playing some LPs tonight I began to notice some sybillance (?) - vocalist's esses (plurals at end of words) were more like sssshhhh's (bluured and distorted). I have not noticed this when listening to digital sorces through the 7520 and I am now listening out for it specifically - it just aint present from digital sources. Does that give you any clues or is that another little problem that I have?
Cheers.
PS.
No play in any direction is present on the bearings as far as I can tell.

Marco
29-08-2009, 00:29
Hi Dave,

It sounds like the cartridge isn't aligned correctly (in the headshell) for your arm. I thought the geometry would be the same as with the Jelco I use. It could also be that VTF is too low because you haven't balanced the arm properly to set VTF accurately at 'zero'.

Do you have an alignment protractor? If so, use it in the normal way (presuming you know how to do this), if not, obtain one. There are numerous various types available.

If you don't have one, what you can do in the meantime is to move the cartridge either back or forth in the headshell by about a mm at a time, fix it in position, and see whether or not the sibilance you mention lessens or disappears.

When you get to the stage where you can hardly heard it or aren't aware of it then you'll be in the right ball park of where optimal alignment lies. To get it 100% accurate you'll need a protractor :)

Regarding VTF (vertical tracking force), the adjustment on tonearms is rarely very accurate so you'll need a dedicated stylus pressure gauge to do the job properly, such as the little Shure 'seesaw' one which is widely available, or a decent digital one.

When you balanced the arm, did you do it so that, with a record on the platter, the stylus tip hovered as low as possible over the record surface, but without touching the record itself, by adjusting the counterweight balance accordingly, and then when that was achieved, setting the dial to the 'zero' position before moving it forward to 1.75g?

With regard to anti-skate, there's no rule to say that it must be set to the same value as the VTF, so experiment with what sounds best, or use a test record for the most accurate results. If the arm is gliding back towards the rest position, it would suggest that you might need to lower the amount of anti-skate to pull the arm more towards the spindle; however without having the deck in front of me it's difficult to be sure...

See how you get on with it and let me know :cool:

Marco.

DaveK
01-09-2009, 19:50
Hi Marco,
Herewith an update on the Techie set up status.

Hi Dave,
It sounds like the cartridge isn't aligned correctly (in the headshell) for your arm. I thought the geometry would be the same as with the Jelco I use. It could also be that VTF is too low because you haven't balanced the arm properly to set VTF accurately at 'zero'.

Do you have an alignment protractor? If so, use it in the normal way (presuming you know how to do this), if not, obtain one. There are numerous various types available. No, don't currently have one but Dave Cawley has offered to e-mail me one today.

If you don't have one, what you can do in the meantime is to move the cartridge either back or forth in the headshell by about a mm at a time, fix it in position, and see whether or not the sibilance you mention lessens or disappears. Done that today and set the overhang to the recommended 52.0mm (+/- f..k all as done with vernier caliper :ner: ). The sibliance has totally disappeared ;) CORRECTION!! Just had violins playing really high notes and it 'squealed' a bit, and also noting slight sibilance on some S's with Ms Horne, (but only some and only on a couple of tracks), so maybe not quite there yet.

When you get to the stage where you can hardly heard it or aren't aware of it then you'll be in the right ball park of where optimal alignment lies. To get it 100% accurate you'll need a protractor :)

Regarding VTF (vertical tracking force), the adjustment on tonearms is rarely very accurate so you'll need a dedicated stylus pressure gauge to do the job properly, such as the little Shure 'seesaw' one which is widely available, or a decent digital one. Have you seen the price of these lately, particularly a digital one?? I'm watching a 'normal' one on eBay at the moment.

When you balanced the arm, did you do it so that, with a record on the platter, the stylus tip hovered as low as possible over the record surface, but without touching the record itself, by adjusting the counterweight balance accordingly, and then when that was achieved, setting the dial to the 'zero' position before moving it forward to 1.75g? Nope. I did it by eye, no record on the platter, just tried to get the tonearm horizontal and parallel with the platter, the set dial to zero and then moved it foward to 1.75 grm.

With regard to anti-skate, there's no rule to say that it must be set to the same value as the VTF, so experiment with what sounds best, or use a test record for the most accurate results. If the arm is gliding back towards the rest position, it would suggest that you might need to lower the amount of anti-skate to pull the arm more towards the spindle; however without having the deck in front of me it's difficult to be sure... Arm is now well behaved, staying put wherever I place it, and it doesn't 'bounce' around any more - guess this is probably due to pushing the cartridge 5mm further out along the tonearm.

See how you get on with it and let me know :cool:

Marco.

Cheers,

The Grand Wazoo
01-09-2009, 20:00
CORRECTION!! Just had violins playing really high notes and it 'squealed' a bit, and also noting slight sibilance on some S's with Ms Horne, (but only some and only on a couple of tracks), so maybe not quite there yet.


Sibilance can originate from the source microphone, as well as from your gear. So it may be nothing to worry about.

Clive
01-09-2009, 21:42
Sibilance can originate from the source microphone, as well as from your gear. So it may be nothing to worry about.
Yes, don't get too paranoid about eliminating sibilance. It's unnatural sibilance you need to rid your system of. It's not always easy to distinguish between the two. Once you become sensitive to sibilance it gets a lot harder because any sibilance drives you nuts.

Sibilance & harshness - violins and grand pianos sound really harsh at times when you hear them close up.

DSJR
01-09-2009, 21:44
SSSibilance is a vinyl thing one sort of gets used to after a while. The exception is when you finally get a cartridge/arm combo that's free of it - then you smile smugly :)

Nagaoka's of old needed a good few LP's under their styli before settling down. You may just find that the modern ones are the same. Make sure too that the cueing device is clearing the bottom of the arm-tube and not fouling it in any way and that the arm looks level to ever-so-slightly-down-at-the-back if anything, as many cartridges have slightly too steep a tracking angle. having the arm set too high definitely causes trouble of its own (as I've found on a vintage Ortofon M20E Super I'm currently enjoying - heaven knows what the M20FL would be like...)

The Shure balance I have isn't as accurate as all that. I also have a Michel/Transcriptors balance using a precision unipivot and little trimmed weights (set with the calibrated weights and then adjust the stylus pressure to match) and the Shure was less accurate than many of the better tonearm systems out there. I doubt the techie would be more than 10% out..

Dave, if you have the techie alignment gauge the arm may have come with, this should be pretty well spot on - it certainly used to be back in the very old days of the original 1200/1300/1400/1500 - 1800 series decks according to HiFi Choice. Use a Linn style protractor, as a Rega optimised one will be possibly incorrect.

Spectral Morn
01-09-2009, 21:51
SSSibilance is a vinyl thing one sort of gets used to after a while. The exception is when you finally get a cartridge/arm combo that's free of it - then you smile smugly :)

The Shure balance I have isn't as accurate as all that. I also have a Michel/Transcriptors balance using a precision unipivot and little trimmed weights (set with the calibrated weights and then adjust the stylus pressure to match) and the Shure was less accurate than many of the better tonearm systems out there. I doubt the techie would be more than 10% out..

Dave, if you have the techie alignment gauge the arm may have come with, this should be pretty well spot on - it certainly used to be back in the very old days of the original 1200/1300/1400/1500 - 1800 series decks according to HiFi Choice. Use a Linn style protractor, as a Rega optimised one will be possibly incorrect.

Sorry Dave, but NO. Digital will have and does have sibilance, if its in the recording as does analogue (vinyl). What one will hear if ones arm/cart alignment is wrong is an entirely different thing...its called mis-tracking. My vinyl front ends (budget to high end) have never ever suffered from sibilance as an inherent issue as you imply in the highlighted text. Arm cart mismatching and bad set up can cause issues but vinyl does not have more or less sibilance than digital.


Regards D S D L

DSJR
01-09-2009, 22:03
My typing again - I typed Ssssibilance, infering mis-tracking, as you so rightly called it. Many Linn LP12 owners lived with it for years without noticing it I remember ;)

Actually, if the records themselves are a bit worn, a decent conical tip may be a better bet - one huge advantage the M3D/N21 has for me..

Going back to mis-tracking and my nonsense with the M20E Super. I all but cured the slight mis-tracking on sibilance simply by adding height to the record (a TD124 mat on top of the stuck-on Dual one). The ortofon doesn't load the record as much as a moving coil cartridge would, so the compromised support is irrelevant here. Suffice to say that my mis-tracking disappeared, the soundstage "focus" was restored and I'm happy. I shall still return to the OC9 as soon as I can be bothered to re-instate the step-up transformer...

DaveK
01-09-2009, 22:23
Thanks Dave, Neil, Clive and Chris,
It seems as if I can't help causing differences of opinion to arise, even when I'm not trying :lol: .
My own opinion, based on very little evidence either way, admittedly, is that my sibilance is a factor of the recording, at the moment (am I suitably sat on the fence?).
Over the coming days and weeks I'll keep a weather ear open for it's return and form a more reliable opinion and then post again. At the moment I have no problem living with it and am enjoying my fairly basic MOR vinyl collection.
Cheers,

Alex_UK
01-09-2009, 22:29
I've mentioned the dreaded "S-word" in my comments on the Caiman DAC - on a very few CDs I am experiencing nasty "sssses" on female vocals, and very splashy cymbals - my conclusion is that as you move "up the food chain" in your reproduction system, it is more obvious when you hear a bad recording - if it is not there all the time, then a bad recording would be a logical assumption?

The Grand Wazoo
01-09-2009, 23:38
Sibilance can originate from the source microphone, as well as from your gear. So it may be nothing to worry about.

..............and sometimes 'S'es just come out that way - in real (as opposed to recorded) life

It's only when it happens too much that it's a problem.

Marco
02-09-2009, 07:32
Hi Dave,


Done that today and set the overhang to the recommended 52.0mm (+/- f..k all as done with vernier caliper ). The sibliance has totally disappeared CORRECTION!! Just had violins playing really high notes and it 'squealed' a bit, and also noting slight sibilance on some S's with Ms Horne, (but only some and only on a couple of tracks), so maybe not quite there yet.


Nice one :)

I had a feeling that would sort it. The little bit of sibilance you're still hearing could be 'natural', as the other guys have mentioned. I suspected that there would be some further adjustments required with your T/T set-up, hence why I offered to come round. You really need the deck in front of you to do the job properly.


Have you seen the price of these lately, particularly a digital one?? I'm watching a 'normal' one on eBay at the moment.


Yes, but what you do is go into your local Pound Shop and buy a set of multi-purpose digital scales (they're pretty accurate), which of course can be used perfectly well for measuring stylus pressure - just place your stylus on top and off you go! ;)

Marco.

DaveK
02-09-2009, 07:51
Hi Dave,

Yes, but what you do is go into your local Pound Shop and buy a set of multi-purpose digital scales (they're pretty accurate), which of course can be used perfectly well for measuring stylus pressure - just place your stylus on top and off you go! ;)

Marco.

Good Morning Marco,
Please read this in the context that you're the teacher/expert and I'm the pupil/novice, but are you really saying that 'el cheapo' digital scales from Poundland would be more accurate than the purpose built built-in mechanism on the Techie arm?
I find that difficult to believe (but not argueing !) AND the physical height of such a thing (never seen one so I'm guessing) would surely render it impossible to get the VTF correct at the correct stylus height?
Next time I'm in the vicinity I'll invest a pound and give it a try :) .
Cheers,

Clive
02-09-2009, 08:04
but are you really saying that 'el cheapo' digital scales from Poundland would be more accurate than the purpose built built-in mechanism on the Techie arm?
The digital scales will be more accurate as they measure the actual force. Take care if you use an MC cartridge (I think you have MM?), most scales have a thin steel plate, this needs a non-magnetic stand-off to ensure the cart doesn't clamp itself to the scales - with consequences for the stylus!

Dave Cawley
02-09-2009, 08:05
Especially with a moving coil cartridge that has strong magnets, often these digital scales are affected by the magnet, even though they say stainless steel. The effect is less but still a problem with MM. The best one is made by Shure and is on my web site (free postage and 10% off to A.O.S. members).

The other issue is arm bearings, are they OK, and VTF that mostly needs to be set at the very upper range for best results.

Regards

Dave

NRG
02-09-2009, 08:09
Yes Dave / Clive. I use a Shure balance and I find it very accurate (unlike Dave DSJR)...I even checked it with those little weights from the Michell balance ;) It was just about spot on! :ner:

Marco
02-09-2009, 08:14
Hi Dave,

Clive's right. The 'el cheapo' scales will be much more accurate than the arm mechanism, trust me! I've got the Shure gauge but the digital scales are more accurate and far less fiddly to use.

The only thing is it is a little awkward positioning them so you can get an accurate reading, but with a little perseverance an accurate reading is exactly what you'll get :)

Marco.

DSJR
02-09-2009, 08:15
I have what I have and mine must be out of spec in some way..

By the way, the best (once cheap?) balance I found is the little Ortofon one (Naim use it for the ARO). At play-weights around 1.75g it seemed accurate to me.

NRG, have you compared the "x1" scale with the "x2" scale on the Shure? I seem to remember a discrepancy with my sample (now languishing in the loft as the Dual is very accurate)

Clive
02-09-2009, 08:16
Yes Dave / Clive. I use a Shure balance and I find it very accurate (unlike Dave DSJR)...I even checked it with those little weights from the Michell balance ;) It was just about spot on! :ner:
I also have the Shure and mine too is accurate, for me the digital scales are slightly quicker and less fiddly to use. The Ortofon ones I have are useless - the internal counter balance must have shifted.

I have made a plastic step for my digital scales, this means the cartridge is checked beside the scales rather than on top of - totally fixing any magnetic attraction issues.

Marco
02-09-2009, 08:31
I have made a plastic step for my digital scales, this means the cartridge is checked beside the scales rather than on top of - totally fixing any magnetic attraction issues.


Yep, that's the common solution and is exactly what Dave should do :)

What pisses me off with the Shure gauge is that once you've set VTF, the little slide indicator often moves about (it gets loose with use) when you place the stylus onto the 'seesaw', and so you have to stop what you're doing to reset it, and start again. It's a pain in the arse.

With the digi-scales positioned properly, it's simply a matter of placing the stylus on top (or on the step) and it reads accurately first time without any fiddling, which is much less of a ball-ache.

Marco.

Dave Cawley
02-09-2009, 08:45
In that case you should use the exact model that Marco uses. I have one here that reads differently every time I use it. And then the ones that are sensitive to magnets...............

Also it's a common human trait to confuse resolution with accuracy!

Dave

Clive
02-09-2009, 08:48
The other point about the plastic step is that you can then weigh cartridge/arm at record height.

NRG
02-09-2009, 09:04
I have what I have and mine must be out of spec in some way....

Yep! Just re-checked mine using the Michell weights and they under read by 0.025gm ! ;) Anybody needing greater accuracy than that needs to get out more... :eyebrows:


NRG, have you compared the "x1" scale with the "x2" scale on the Shure? I seem to remember a discrepancy with my sample (now languishing in the loft as the Dual is very accurate)

Yes, just done it.... no difference between the scales, under reads by the same amount on both scales.

Marco
02-09-2009, 09:18
I've never used the x1 scale - well, running cartridges that track at over 2.5g you wouldn't, would you? :eyebrows:

Does no-one else have problems with the slide indicator moving around on the Shure when the stylus is placed on the 'seesaw'? The action of placing it on and lifting it off usually causes the indicator to move, IME. That's what I don't like about it.

The digi-scales I've got have no problem with cartridge magnets. The one I use is a 'UK Scales MS-150'. It comes in a black box with green writing.

Marco.

DaveK
02-09-2009, 10:20
......often these digital scales are affected by the magnet, even though they say stainless steel.
The other issue is arm bearings, are they OK, and VTF that mostly needs to be set at the very upper range for best results.

Regards

Dave
Hi Dave,
It's not very often I can pass on my knowledge on this forum, but on this subject I can, being an ex-metallurgist. The term 'stainless steel' these days means next to sweet FA and even less than that in relation to it's magnetivity.
Adding nickel (and other elements but it is mainly nickel), to the mix reduces the metal's magnetivity but it is very expensive and is therefore kept to a minimum, to the point that some steels claiming to be stainless contain no nickel at all and hence are extremely magnetic.
In other words 'stainless' should definitely not be taken to mean 'non-magnetic'. I can give you 'chapter and verse' on it if you require more details.
With regards to the bearings, I cannot detect any side to side play on the tonearm gimbal or platter but the platter spindle will move vertically up and down a few mm.
Currently I have the VTF set exactly mid range (1.75 grm) according to the dial on the tonearm - I'll crank it up 0.25 grm and see if I can tell a difference.
BTW - please don't forget the alignment protractor e-mail :) .
Cheers,

NRG
02-09-2009, 10:39
Dave, get yourself over to the Vinyl Engine, they have more protractors and setup advise than you can shake a stick at....

You'll have to registerto gain access but it's worth it....

http://www.vinylengine.com/library.shtml

Oh bum...I see they're still playing silly buggers with the redirection from AOS....DAve open up a new browser window and cut n paste the link.....

Marco
02-09-2009, 10:48
You won't be able to do it though from the above link because of 'past history' between the forums, as you'll get a stupid message preventing you from viewing the site - long story!

So you'll have to access VE from the likes of Google :)

Marco.

DaveK
02-09-2009, 19:43
Dave, get yourself over to the Vinyl Engine, they have more protractors and setup advise than you can shake a stick at....

You'll have to registerto gain access but it's worth it....

http://www.vinylengine.com/library.shtml

Oh bum...I see they're still playing silly buggers with the redirection from AOS....DAve open up a new browser window and cut n paste the link.....

Hi Neal,
Thanks for the Vinyl Engine pointer. I found what I was looking for but the Alignment Protracor for the Techie SL1200 appears to be for one with a longer tonearm than mine - it strikes the same arc but on a shorter radius so the 'grid' rectangles are in the wrong positions. As near as I can tell from what I see the alignment seems to be there or thereabouts.
Thanks again, :)
Dave.

Dave Cawley
02-09-2009, 20:01
I am working on the standard arm SL1200 protractor, give me a day extra! There are "issues"

Dave

DaveK
02-09-2009, 20:12
Hi Dave,
Yes, but what you do is go into your local Pound Shop and buy a set of multi-purpose digital scales (they're pretty accurate), which of course can be used perfectly well for measuring stylus pressure - just place your stylus on top and off you go! ;)

Marco.

Hi Marco,
Well, you live and learn as they say !! Couldn't find a cheapy micro scale in Poundland but got a very nice one from Maplin (slightly more than £1.00 but it has a nice blue backlight - WOW, cool ! :) ).
I put it under my stylus and found the VTF to be 0.72 grm, only about 1 grm light !!!. I tweaked the counter weight to get a VTF of 1.96 grm (as per Dave Cawley's advice, top end of range 1.5 to 2.0 grm) and tried that. The sibilance on Ms Horne's S's is still there, as is the 'squeal' from the very high violin notes on one track, but it sounds better and more 'solid' if that makes sense. I'm becoming more convinced that it's the recording rather than my set up. Also the tonearm doesn't bounce around like it did, so it's all looking and sounding better.
Now for the boring and eye rolling bit, sorry. I am now listening to one of my test records, JMJ's Equinoxe and it sounds great - never better - great soundstage, all the high pitched notes are sharp and clear and the bass is taught, no woolly edges. Not saying it couldn't be better, but until I hear it better I won't know, will I? At the moment I'm satisfied.:)
You might also care to look at the post above regarding Alignment Protractor to see if you have any comments.
Cheers,

DaveK
02-09-2009, 20:16
I am working on the standard arm SL1200 protractor, give me a day extra! There are "issues"

Dave

No probs for me Dave - take your time and resolve all the "issues" - at the moment I'm enjoying what I've got.
Cheers,

Marco
02-09-2009, 20:50
Marco,
Well, you live and learn as they say !! Couldn't find a cheapy micro scale in Poundland but got a very nice one from Maplin (slightly more than £1.00 but it has a nice blue backlight - WOW, cool ! ).
I put it under my stylus and found the VTF to be 0.72 grm, only about 1 grm light !!!.


Jeez, what are you like? :lol:

I thought that there was something very wrong going on in terms of how you'd set VTF with the arm mechanism! Anyway, you've now got a nice (and accurate) set of digital scales and it's pretty much sorted your problem, so that's the main thing.

However, I'd bet anything that VTA is not set properly either, which *could* explain your issue with sibilance. Call me tomorrow and we'll have a chat about this :)

Regarding VTF, I'm going to disagree slightly with Dave (nothing is written in stone here) and recommend that you reduce it to 1.75g again now that you've got an accurate way of measuring it. You may find that this improves things further. If not, you can always put it back!

Anyway, keep me posted and we'll speak tomorrow.

Marco.

Mike
02-09-2009, 20:54
Why do people assume 'digital' = 'accurate' when it comes to scales? :scratch:

Quite bizarre! :mental:

They are just as prone to mis-calibration as anything else. All you really get for certain is an unambiguous display, usually with higher resolution... Hey, at least you can incorrectly set your tracking force to several decimal places! :lol:

Marco
02-09-2009, 21:07
Well, Mikey, they're a lot more accurate than the Shure 'seesaw' device, in my experience!

I set 2.7g (optimal for the 103) on the Shure, and had used it at that setting for ages until I got the digital scales. Then I measured it on those and it read at 3.1g - way too high!!

So............ I reduced VTF to 2.7g, as shown on the digi-scales, and bingo, the sound improved quite markedly (as this was obviously much closer to the proper setting) - and I've used it like that ever since!

I tried judging it by ear before that, but it's difficult to assess these things properly with different types of recording and pressings influencing things, so the piece of mind from knowing that it's set as accurately as possible (without spending a fortune) is worth it, IMO.

Also, the digi-scales are much more accurate than any arm mechanism I've ever used :)

Marco.

Mike
02-09-2009, 21:10
You're missing the point, Marco!

...but, whatever you say. ;)

Mike
02-09-2009, 21:14
I shall quote the learn-ed Mr C. :smoking:


I have one here that reads differently every time I use it. And then the ones that are sensitive to magnets...............

Also it's a common human trait to confuse resolution with accuracy!

Dave

;)

Marco
02-09-2009, 21:16
Well I know what I can hear - and that's all that matters! ;)

I ain't interested in anything else.

Marco.

Mike
02-09-2009, 21:19
As you should...

I am merely pointing out that it is folly to assume accuracy due to the presence of a digital display!

*Edit* It is something I picked up on earlier in the thread, BTW... not a direct response to your post. ;)

Marco
02-09-2009, 21:24
I don't disagree. I just felt that I should point out that although what you said may be the case, the fact is that, in my experience, the digital scales I own are more accurate than the Shure 'seesaw' ones.

They've also succeeded in helping Dave identify a major problem with his T/T set-up which would've cost him much more had he invested in some 'fancy' digital scales or even the Shure thingy - I'd call that a result! :)


*Edit* It is something I picked up on earlier in the thread, BTW... not a direct response to your post.


Which is why I misunderstood what you were getting at!

Marco.

Mike
02-09-2009, 21:26
See *Edit* to prior post. :)

Mike
02-09-2009, 21:28
Oops... we're getting out of sync! :lol:

Marco
02-09-2009, 21:28
See mine! Hahahahahahaha....... :lol:

Marco.

Mike
02-09-2009, 21:38
There, see! Out of sync! :)

DaveK
02-09-2009, 21:46
Why do people assume 'digital' = 'accurate' when it comes to scales? :scratch:

Quite bizarre! :mental:

They are just as prone to mis-calibration as anything else. All you really get for certain is an unambiguous display, usually with higher resolution... Hey, at least you can incorrectly set your tracking force to several decimal places! :lol:

Oh ye of little faith !! If it shows 0.00 when it's only weighing air and shows 25 grms when it's weighing 25 grms of baking yeast, I'm prepared to believe it's not gonna be very far out when it's showing 1.96 grms, but I'm new at this and you guys are the experts - what do you suggest? - that we buy around half a dozen and take the average? :lolsign::lolsign:
Cheers,

Mike
02-09-2009, 21:53
Just use it to get you 'in the ballpark'.

Once you find the 'sweet spot' (by ear) use the same scales whenever you change something. It doesn't really matter if it measures it in turnips & potatoes, at least you know that 1.75 neeps & tatties is what you want to see on your scales.

Just don't assume that 1.75 neeps & tatties = 1.75 grammes. It could be 1.62 or 1.88 in real grammes... but does it really matter as long as you keep hitting that same sweet spot? ;)


:lolsign:

DaveK
02-09-2009, 22:04
Just use it to get you 'in the ballpark'.

Once you find the 'sweet spot' (by ear) use the same scales whenever you change something. It doesn't really matter if it measures it in turnips & potatoes, at least you know that 1.75 neeps & tatties is what you want to see on your scales.

Just don't assume that 1.75 neeps & tatties = 1.75 grammes. It could be 1.62 or 1.88 in real grammes... but does it really matter as long as you keep hitting that same sweet spot? ;)


:lolsign:

Hi Mike,
Hope I'm not being divisive here but basically what you are saying is keep the scales in the box until I have found the 'sweet spot' by ear by moving the counterweight around until it sounds right to me, AND THEN MEASURE IT in whatever units I want to call them. Retain that measurement for reproducing any time I change anything. Isn't that more or less what Marco was saying? I guess that your 'out of sync' probably confused me as well as you :lol:
Cheers,

Mike
02-09-2009, 22:08
Sort of...

'Set it' to 1.75 (or whatever) with the scales and the move the VTF up or down till you find what sounds best to you. Check it again with the scales and note the reading. Then, if ever you change anything, you have your reference point! :)

Which might well be what Marco said? :lol:

Marco
02-09-2009, 22:24
Aye, it bloody is (in a slightly different, roundabout way)! :lolsign:

Marco.

Mike
02-09-2009, 22:25
Yeah... but you talk 'scotch'! :ner: