View Full Version : Yamaha NS1000M Genelec version
Finnish National Broadcasting company had Yamaha NS1000M as their standard monitor.
This was a special version modified by Genelec. They removed the original crossover
and bolted on an active crossover and three 120 W amplifiers.
This was called Genelec Triamp S45YA.
I have heard that 90 pairs were ever made.
It is unknown outside Finland.
I am chuffed that I am getting my hands on a well preserved pair this week.
Here is the front:
http://hoone.com/Yamaha2.jpg
And the back:
http://hoone.com/yamaha1.jpg
Will post better pictures later this week.
Ali Tait
23-02-2015, 15:55
:popcorn:
Wow!! How rare!!!!! I bet even Genelec have forgotten they ever made them!!
Wow!! How rare!!!!! I bet even Genelec have forgotten they ever made them!!
Exactly, look at Genelec.com. No mention there. I guess they want to forget the Yamaha origins.
Excellent! Want more info and pics!
walpurgis
23-02-2015, 18:55
Never heard of those. Interesting.
Martyn Miles
25-02-2015, 17:24
Now that is what I call a monitor system...
Wow - interesting stuff.
:popcorn:
I have heard of these but never even seen a pair!
daytona600
25-02-2015, 22:30
new to me as well I had NS1000 back in the 80s myself
I have the Yamaha NS1000M Genelecs now.
These were made 1978. This large order of 90 pairs for Finnish National Broadcasting started Genelec
as a company. The amplifier/crossover unit used is called S30.
Later Genelec made another monitor using the same S30.
Here is some technical details:
Bass amp 50W (momentary 65W)
Mid amp 23W (momentary 65W)
Tweeter amp 3W (momentary 50W)
Slew rate > 20V/us
Distortion <0.1% (THD, SMPTE-IM)
The low tweeter amp wattage guards the tweeter element.
My first impression was that the quality of Yamaha woodwork is amazing.
The Genelec S30 is practically on hinges and easy to open and service.
There is 4 ITT 4700 uf caps on the power section. Half of them are leaking.
So I need 8 4700 uf 40 volt ITT caps with a bolt on the other end.
http://hoone.com/triamp1.jpg
http://hoone.com/triamp2.jpg
Are these the best speakers I ever had?
Hell, yes. But they are so raw. No ribbon tweeter softness here.
But I can now hear everything. All instruments in good balance.
First hour listening I started with usual cd:s. Micromega Drive 1 => RME soundcard => Cyrus Pre => speakers
Cd:s sounded raw, because they actually do sound raw.
After this vinyls on my 1967 Ortofon pickup. No more rawness. :eyebrows:
Awesome!! Raw is a good way to describe even modern genelecs!
[B]
Cd:s sounded raw, because they actually do sound raw.:
Or should you mean, Cd:s sounded raw, because Micromega Drive 1 => RME soundcard => Cyrus Pre
:)
Awesome!! Raw is a good way to describe even modern genelecs!
Or should you mean, Cd:s sounded raw, because Micromega Drive 1 => RME soundcard => Cyrus Pre
:)
Hey Butuz, you were spot on right about the RME soundcard.
It had always sounded good with "sweet" sounding speakers. These brought out harshness that I had not noticed before.
Swapped to Hegel dac. Much better now.
Sure would like to hear a pair of these, for comparison with me own NS-1000M.
I'm poking them with a 270W/8Ohm Karan poweramp, and they seem to like it! ;)
Do you feel there's enough headroom regarding the power?
/Mike
Sure would like to hear a pair of these, for comparison with me own NS-1000M.
I'm poking them with a 270W/8Ohm Karan poweramp, and they seem to like it! ;)
Do you feel there's enough headroom regarding the power?
/Mike
The amps are engineered for purpose. Just black metal boxes. They do promise adequate levels 122 db SPL and low distortion.
I have the same question as you. Are the pro monitor amps good enough for audiophile use?
I don't have the answer yet.
The amp headroom is there. For active crossover and three amps for NS1000M this set-up must be ideal.
Would it be better with normal crossover + large amp?
I am now using balanced XLR cables as the Cyrus Pre has balanced outputs.
I have found replacement for leaky power caps. They are from German Fischer & Tausche.
The new caps might make a difference.
I would expect the new caps to make a worthwhile difference, particularly if the old ones are clearly leaking. Amp wattage appears to go further in active speakers but I'm still surprised these amps are so relatively low powered (would still love to hear them though). In my semi active NS-1000M system (the bass is active) I have 300wpc just on the bass drivers!
I would expect the new caps to make a worthwhile difference, particularly if the old ones are clearly leaking. Amp wattage appears to go further in active speakers but I'm still surprised these amps so relatively low powered (would still love to hear them though). In my semi active NS-1000M system (the bass is active) I have 300wpc just on the bass drivers!
Well, looking back to 1978 and monitoring. BBC was using modified Quad 405's at their music studios.
These amps have 4 medium sized and 2 large transistors each. All from Motorola. They look like Naim amps.
I only have the component list. Genelec does not publish their service manuals.
Sorry, I don't see the point you are making?
Sorry, I don't see the point you are making?
These ware designed in 1978. Amp technology then was such that a 300W amp was quit large and heavy.
There is no way they could bolt on for example three 300W amps on the back of the speaker cabinet.
Oh, I see - sorry, that isn't what I was suggesting - not three 300wpc amps, but I'm surprised they are as low powered as they are.
sq225917
28-02-2015, 13:43
No doubt they were intended for broadcast monitoring no need for head banging levels.
It would be interesting to know what crossover slopes and frequencies were used.
It would be interesting to know what crossover slopes and frequencies were used.
Here is some info on Genelec S30 monitors. My speakers have an earlier version of this amp.
This is a datasheet. I know from internet discussions that crossover frequencies are not the same as on this document.
http://www.genelec.com/documents/datasheets/DS_S30.pdf
Interesting, that describes third order slopes for all the drivers.
Bias current and offset voltage
Genelec service department was kind enough to send me instructions on
setting bias current and offset voltage for the amps on my NS1000M.
Got them on email in just one hour!! How is that for good service.
I am by no means an electronics expert, but managed to do this easy enough.
Of course being very careful as mains voltage has to be on to do this.
After correct settings:
a) somehow less distortion on mid and treble
b) one speaker amps were running hotter than the other. Not any more.
Getting closer to perfection. Should get 8 new power caps on Friday. Lets see if that makes a difference.
It does.
These Genelec S45 models actually pop up for sale every once in a while here in Finland and have heard several pairs during the years. Despite haven't made any direct comparison have somehow feeling that the original Yamaha NS-1000 or 1000M versions are more capable when set up with decent amplification as their passive XO is pretty good without any mods. Or at least have never heard the speakers sound anywhere their best when driven with Genelec plate amps. With the Genelec amps there is always some harshness present that I haven't been able to overcome.
Great catch nevertheless especially for the money they have been for sale lately!
PS: The Genelec guys told me years back that the reason this model is not at their webpages etc is that it was not commercially available product, just custom modification for YLE as a one of order. Then based on this experience the S30 was introduced..
Yamaha NS1000M / Genelec recap done
Power supply electrolytic caps have been changed. Using high quality German F&T caps.
These were the only electrolytic caps in the system. Amp bias also reset.
Harshness / raw sound is now less and less. These are not easy and sweet sounding.
Analytic with high realism. Revealing every detail.
I have them now on original studio trolleys. Bottom heigth is 65 cm from floor level.
Now I have to start pre-amp rolling. All shortcomings will come out.
1. Cyrus Pre: no, no Too dry
2. Velleman 8020 with DDR RFT ECC82 valves from 70's: no good
3. Dada revised Quad 33: now this is something. At least it has a personal sound.
I had a pair of ns 500s a few years back....10'' bass and almost the same tweeter as the 1000s.
wonderfully crisp but hard with poor kit.
sadly, nothing could be done about this as a previous owner had killed the tweeter attenuator. the crossover was also heavily potted with hard mastic so no adjustment was possible.
but you know what I REALLY miss....the wonderful "electronic" smell from the reflex port.
during hard use it was evident in my listening area!!!
NIGE.
http://hoone.com/ns1000.jpg
Yamaha NS1000M - speakers ready for use
Getting a fine domestic hifi sound out of this monitoring system was down to three things.
1. Recapping the Genelec amp power supplies
2. Correct amplifier bias
3. Most of all bass/mid/treble settings on the active amps
Now home hifi is often voiced with sweet tweeter and powerful bass.
To achieve this I turned treble down 2 db and mid down 4 db. Genelec amps have decibel accurate
tone controls. On zero position they promise un-echoic flat response.
Too much mid brought out harshness and over shadowed the tweeter.
So far best listening experience has been Deep Purple "Made in Japan". The Richie Blackmore Marshall stack sound
is 100% accurate.
Mrs. Juha has now declared that 4 sets of large speakers is my maximum here.
The Genelec Triamp S45 YA / Yamaha NS1000M have been in use for a month.
I still like them. They are revealing monitors.
Friends had the same comments: "I can hear everything, these are monitors"
Some stories about them from Finnish Broadcasting sound engineers.
- They are better than ordinary NS1000
- They have "the Genelec sound"
- Among best motors they used. Can only work on Genelecs.
- Positioning height: mid speaker on eye level
- Were selected by blind testing 5 different monitors
- Too accurate for every day listening
- Deeper bass than standard NS1000
Just saw that a pair of these was sold for only 600 eur. Two months ago, good condition but without studio trolleys.
This was on the Finnish auction site www.huuto.net.
To help possible interested parties here is a link that shows all "Genelec" items on the site.
http://www.huuto.net/hakutulos/words/genelec
Alas, this is in Finnish, but Google translator is your friend.
Normal price range is 600 - 1400 eur.
Do you know what other monitors they blind tested them against?
Do you know what other monitors they blind tested them against?
The source says blind tested 5 monitors. 3 unknown, the NS1000 modified and Neumann OY control monitor (http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/neumann-kh/home_en.nsf/root/prof-monitoring_discontinued-monitors_studio-products_OY). I know they also used Quad panels way back in the sixties.
Had the amp dismantled for contact cleaning.
Here is the Genelec S45YA triamp.
Upper right is the active crossover. Then resistors for bass/mid/treble level matching.
Lower from left to right we have bass / mid / treble amplifiers.
The main transistors are 2N3055. A sixties design found in many quality amps.
Here is a picture in high resolution:
http://hoone.com/GenelecS45YA.jpg
Hi,
I have a set of these and would love to know any further details about biasing/offset values.
Wille
Hello
Is there any schematics for the Genelec Triamp S45 YA amps. Need to fix and renovate a pair I just purchased.
Here you go:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ghzko71pei6pcjr/AABw9iKzB-p7ZhEqBmGsW0ADa?dl=0
Motorola 2N 3055s are really a very good staple with years of proof.
Not much in the way of usage by Hi-Fi people of Genelec though.
Great, thank you!
What is C21? It says MKT, but is it an electrolytic or is the mark just where the foil ends or begins?
sq225917
09-11-2017, 07:59
If it says MKT it's a film cap, metalised polyester. They're non-polar.
OK, found it on the schematic, a 10 uF output cap of the treble amp. I'll order a MKP.
The mid amp in one of the speakers has an awful noise, like static but changing in volume every now and then.
Any ideas of the likely culprit(s)?
Here is info on offset voltage and bias for this amplifier.
http://hoone.com/bias.jpg
Noticed that one of the amps doesn't have the 100 pF ceramics across collector and base (I assume) on the power transistors of the mid amp. Found only 120 pF in my junk box. I suppose they are there to stop high-frequency ringing so 20 pF up wouldn't harm? Or what is yr opinion?
In about '74 I took my Nelson-Jones 10+10 into work and it was criticised for the wide bandwidth, they saying that it was asking fro parasitic oscillations at HF. (Went to 1Meg -3dB I think)
The technician bloke, with whom I was equally qualified, put a few puff across a collector and base in a signal section of each shannel. I used it for years like that until one day I questioned his decision.
Then when I removed it a veil was lifted, and the sound opened up, never had an oscillation except with expensive Litz speaker cables much later, and when going from Tannoys to ESS Monitors. Removed the cables and returned to thick mains cable, no problems.
Has anyone got a spare amp for these to sell or borrow? One speaker (following the amp) has a lot of scraping noise. Now mostly from the bass speaker, but earlier from the mid or all speaker. Suspect the protection circuit.
Another option might be to make them passive again, with the original filters or the Danish modded filter. Dunno if it is worthwhile, because these speakers have been stored in a humid place for very long, no idea how corroded the domes really are and how it affects their speed.
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