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Marco
23-08-2009, 00:46
I just wondered if some of you reel-to-reel guys knew of this place:

http://www.tapeproject.com/

Looks interesting! :)

Marco.

Beechwoods
23-08-2009, 06:54
It is a great project - 15ips real-time duplicated '1½ gen' duplications from masters on half track quarter-inch tape, (would work extremely well in Neil's B77). The closest you are likely to get to the original master in the analogue domain.

But have you seen the prices?! If you really like one of their releases the price does start to make sense, but $300 is not the kind of money you pay to see how an album sounds :)

Compare this with the vacuum-bin approach to to duplicating old reel to reels - I've read elsewhere that masters would run at 240ips and slaves at 120ips... that said there are some great factory releases on 7½ips reel to reel, and some of the better 3¾ips releases can sound good too.

A little off-topic, but here are a few things from my pre-rec reel to reels collection, from the olden days (not tape-project stuff - these are a little cheaper :lol:)

http://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_01_s.jpghttp://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_02_s.jpghttp://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_03_s.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_04_s.jpghttp://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_05_s.jpghttp://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_06_s.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_07_s.jpghttp://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_08_s.jpghttp://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_09_s.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_10_s.jpghttp://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_11_s.jpghttp://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_12_s.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_13_s.jpghttp://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_14_s.jpghttp://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_15_s.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_16_s.jpghttp://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/Tapeheads/reel_collection/reels_17_s.jpg

REM
23-08-2009, 07:01
Wow, I'll take that red deck, that is a serious bit of audio pornology:smoking:.
Been thinking lately when we say that a well fettled DD turntable sounds more like CD but in the right way what we should be saying is that it is more like 15 ips R2R;)

Cheers:cool:

Spectral Morn
23-08-2009, 09:22
My understanding though is that your reel to reel needs to be tweaked to play Tape Project tapes.

I don't fancy doing that to be honest (can't really afford it anyway). If I was going to have any mods done/service etc I would send my B77 to Brian Reeves, but that would I suspect cost me about £400 all in, or more perhaps....maybe when I am back in work.

The big problem with old commercial reels is you need a good quarter track machine to play them on. I have done something about that last week...all will be revealed soon ;)

I wonder about SSS with pre-recorded reels or print-through...have you had many problems Nick ? This has put me off buying any.

I plan to make some live simple mic all analogue recordings later this year or early next year of a very talented female singer song writer I know. These will be used to help me evaluate gear.

Regards D S D L

Beechwoods
23-08-2009, 10:44
You're right Neil; they use IEC standard EQ rather than NAB or CCIR. I'm keen to hear more about your quarter track adventure :)

On print through I'll drop some thoughts later, but one thing you should always do is store recordings tails out ; ie don't rewind back off the take-up reel. This keeps any print through 'inside' the recording rather than before it.

DSJR
23-08-2009, 11:11
My understanding though is that your reel to reel needs to be tweaked to play Tape Project tapes.

I don't fancy doing that to be honest (can't really afford it anyway). If I was going to have any mods done/service etc I would send my B77 to Brian Reeves, but that would I suspect cost me about £400 all in, or more perhaps....maybe when I am back in work.

The big problem with old commercial reels is you need a good quarter track machine to play them on. I have done something about that last week...all will be revealed soon ;)

I wonder about SSS with pre-recorded reels or print-through...have you had many problems Nick ? This has put me off buying any.

I plan to make some live simple mic all analogue recordings later this year or early next year of a very talented female singer song writer I know. These will be used to help me evaluate gear.

Regards D S D L

Too far south for you Neil, but - http://www.taperecorder.co.uk/index.html near Ipswich may be an option for southern/eastern tape buffs. the site's worth a look anyway.

I had a collection of IEC equalised tapes and compared to NAB ones, the differences in eq were really small and less than comparing different cartridges on a turntable IMO.

These old Revoxes are so cheap now I'd love another one. Beware with A77's though - an otherwise mint condition one had crumbling presets inside, although once serviced it worked a treat. The B77 had better headroom than an un-modified A77...

Spectral Morn
23-08-2009, 13:10
Too far south for you Neil, but - http://www.taperecorder.co.uk/index.html near Ipswich may be an option for southern/eastern tape buffs. the site's worth a look anyway.

I had a collection of IEC equalised tapes and compared to NAB ones, the differences in eq were really small and less than comparing different cartridges on a turntable IMO.

These old Revoxes are so cheap now I'd love another one. Beware with A77's though - an otherwise mint condition one had crumbling presets inside, although once serviced it worked a treat. The B77 had better headroom than an un-modified A77...


Hi Dave

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately all the mainland service centres are to far south for me. Brian Reeves of Service sound does supply flight cases for shipping to him and back, which I think is a pretty good idea and worth the money....at some point. The B77 I got isn't to bad, but there was no box for it a common problem. Why don't people keep their boxes :doh: I went to Scotland to get it which cost less than posting and my wife and I got a very nice day out as well. A result all round.

Ummm A77 more to tell about those in the future.

Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
23-08-2009, 13:16
You're right Neil; they use IEC standard EQ rather than NAB or CCIR. I'm keen to hear more about your quarter track adventure :)

On print through I'll drop some thoughts later, but one thing you should always do is store recordings tails out ; ie don't rewind back off the take-up reel. This keeps any print through 'inside' the recording rather than before it.


Thank you Nick I asked about this on Tapeheads and was ignored. I asked a question as part of a thread about print through and the term "tails out" was used...silence was my reply. Tapeheads can be a bit frustrating that way.

Thanks for the info Nick


Regards D S D L

Beechwoods
23-08-2009, 16:00
No problem. I must admit that while I really like Tapeheads I don't follow many of the discussions on there just because there's only so much time in the day!

Low-print tape is formulated to minimise print-through, for archiving. 'Backed' tape is also designed to minimise print through by separating the adjacent recorded layers by a backing on the reverse side of the tape.

BTW... what's SSS ? :)

DSJR
23-08-2009, 16:30
Hi Dave

Ummm A77 more to tell about those in the future.

Regards D S D L

Do tell when you're able..

off topic, but I'd love to have an A76 tuner again. I foolishly sold mine in favour of a gorgeous looking Luxman T88-V. Appearances were only skin deep sadly on this one, the thick-toned and squidgey mess emanating from it wasn't too pleasant IMO.

Spectral Morn
23-08-2009, 16:50
No problem. I must admit that while I really like Tapeheads I don't follow many of the discussions on there just because there's only so much time in the day!

Low-print tape is formulated to minimise print-through, for archiving. 'Backed' tape is also designed to minimise print through by separating the adjacent recorded layers by a backing on the reverse side of the tape.

BTW... what's SSS ? :)

SSS is Sticky Shed Syndrome when tape has been stored badly and has stuck to its self or sheds lots of particles....common with quite a few tape makes and periods of time when they were made. Lot of info about this on Tapeheads.


Regards D S D L

DSJR
23-08-2009, 17:04
There are many thousands of 1970's and 1980's master tapes forever unplayable now (I think). You have to bake them before playing, but whether they can be played again after this I don't know.. Mostly Ampex I understand.

the BASF back coated tapes I had, along with the Maxell's, TDK Audua's were ok and perfectly playable. I had to chuck the few Agfa's I had as they squealed through the guides and shedded all over the heads. Nothing important on them though...

Beechwoods
23-08-2009, 17:10
Aha - yeah, I know about sticky shed syndrome, just didn't make the link with the acronym!

Ampex were particularly bad during the seventies, I've heard, but the tape manufacturers did get their act together in the latter part of that decade. My experience buying proper NOS from proper tape suppliers (rather than funny American estate-sale type sellers dealing in all sorts of other stuff) has been fine. I suspect many of the Tapeheads are chasing very old stock stuff (ie. 70's) for collectibility reasons. BASF / EMTC / Quantegy were producing tape right through into the late 90's and early 2000's and so NOS for them is not old at all, and good quantities are available that have been stored perfectly well by reputable suppliers.

Again, my experience of buying used tapes on eBay - I've bought old collectors tapes of stuff by a few bands I'm into - is that if they were recorded on decent tape at the time (TDK, Maxell) and taken care of, even used once tapes are free of 'SSS'. The only ones that have proven problematic are tapes from the 60's and 70's, that have clearly been played a lot or stored carelessly.

Anyway - this seller is worth checking out. He's very helpful, and his tapes and accessories are great, IMO:

http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/fred-gewinnt

You want Tonbandmaterial-neu (http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/fred-gewinnt_Tonbandmaterial-neu_W0QQ_fsubZ5206261QQ_sidZ180314859QQ_trksidZp46 34Q2ec0Q2em322) :)

You may find it better to try shorter lengths of tape (ie. 5" spools) before investing in full 10" reels. See how shorter lengths sound in your setup. And don't be afraid to try the Zonal stuff that's still in production.

Barry
23-08-2009, 21:43
Can't imagine paying $500 for any recording even/let alone, a tape copy (despite it being copied in real time). Tape may have the dynamic range but it is not a robust medium: it suffers from print through, oxide shedding, SSS (as has been mentioned), can stretch and even snap. I suspect that was one of the reasons why DAT failed to catch on - no matter how good the recording method is, you are still limited by the physical nature of the tape. No, I'll stick to vinyl and CDs.

Regarding print-through, I can't see the idea of not rewinding the tape to be of much help in this respect. Regardless of how the tape is spooled, most of the print-through will be masked by the intended signal or 'inside the music' as Beechy puts it. The only difference is that by not rewinding the tape, the print-through becomes an 'echo' not a 'pre-echo'.

SSS is a problem with several brands of tape. The worse are:

Agfa PEM 468/9, < 1990,
Ampex 406/7, 456/7, 1970 - 1985 and later,
Scotch 226/7, 806-808, any vintage.

Have no idea of the status of BASF or of 3M in this respect. Baking seems to work and is a temporary solution but repeated baking will take it's toll on the tape. It seems the Library of Congress are actively looking for a better (and permenant) solution to the problem.

By the way Beechy, how does IEC tape equalisation differ from CCIR?

Beechwoods
24-08-2009, 05:38
By the way Beechy, how does IEC tape equalisation differ from CCIR?

A very good point, Barry! I'd not bothered checking when the point came up earlier :) IEC (specifically IEC1) is CCIR. NAB (aka IEC2 while we're at it) is what's used in most consumer decks, if they're not switchable. A lot of pro-units can switch between the two.

From prior discussions I know that both our Nagra's are set up with CCIR EQ. CCIR is considered a superior standard to NAB.

Interesting article here: http://home.comcast.net/~mrltapes/equaliz.html

Spectral Morn
24-08-2009, 06:30
A very good point, Barry! I'd not bothered checking when the point came up earlier :) IEC (specifically IEC1) is CCIR. NAB (aka IEC2 while we're at it) is what's used in most consumer decks, if they're not switchable. A lot of pro-units can switch between the two.

From prior discussions I know that both our Nagra's are set up with CCIR EQ. CCIR is considered a superior standard to NAB.

Interesting article here: http://home.comcast.net/~mrltapes/equaliz.html

Interesting link Nick.


Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
24-08-2009, 06:35
Can't imagine paying $500 for any recording even/let alone, a tape copy (despite it being copied in real time). Tape may have the dynamic range but it is not a robust medium: it suffers from print through, oxide shedding, SSS (as has been mentioned), can stretch and even snap. I suspect that was one of the reasons why DAT failed to catch on - no matter how good the recording method is, you are still limited by the physical nature of the tape. No, I'll stick to vinyl and CDs.

Regarding print-through, I can't see the idea of not rewinding the tape to be of much help in this respect. Regardless of how the tape is spooled, most of the print-through will be masked by the intended signal or 'inside the music' as Beechy puts it. The only difference is that by not rewinding the tape, the print-through becomes an 'echo' not a 'pre-echo'.

SSS is a problem with several brands of tape. The worse are:

Agfa PEM 468/9, < 1990,
Ampex 406/7, 456/7, 1970 - 1985 and later,
Scotch 226/7, 806-808, any vintage.

Have no idea of the status of BASF or of 3M in this respect. Baking seems to work and is a temporary solution but repeated baking will take it's toll on the tape. It seems the Library of Congress are actively looking for a better (and permenant) solution to the problem.

By the way Beechy, how does IEC tape equalisation differ from CCIR?


I think its more accurate to say that you shouldn't be surprised if you have a problem with these makes and formulations.

I have picked up some of the above with no problems so far, the last two words should be noted, expect to have issues with these in the future. If you buy a nice metal reel and the tapes bad ....well as long as you didn't pay to much its best IMHO to view the purchase as being of the reel and not the tape. Metal 7/10.5 inch reels sell for between £8 to £15, more if they are rare. So don't get sucked into bidding a fortune assuming the tapes okay it may well be for the bin.


Regards D S D L