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jfine
22-08-2009, 02:56
I am debating whether or not I should upgrade my 1200MK5. (Sorry if this is in the wrong forum).

I've read a lot of posts here, and on a few other forums, but I haven't seen much in the way of the comparisons I'm looking for.

I currently have a KAB Fluid Damper, Cardas wired tonearm, external power supply (PS-1200), Isonoe footers, and a few mats I play around with. I run a Dyna 20XH and Dyna P-75 MKII.

I see some here have went with a Timestep PSU, but I do not see much comparison between that and the KAB PS-1200, except on www.soundhifi.com. Well, basically the site says it's better, in so many words. Hmm.

OK, also I'm thinking of the www.soundhifi.com upgrade using either a Jelco or SME arm, and again, I'm looking for comparisons to those arms versus a Fluid damped/cardas stock arm. I'm just looking for opinions, not really things like if an SME costs that much it should be better type of thing. Just a real honest answer really especially if someone's actually tried it.

Thanks in advance :)

Marco
22-08-2009, 09:00
Hi,

Welcome to AOS. What's your first name and where are you from? :)

Well, since I own the same T/T as you (a MK5) and have had it both fully KAB'd and (now) Time-step'd, fitted with a Jelco SA-750D (and also Isonoes), I'm probably qualified to comment...

With regard to the two PSUs, the time-step is a no-brainer upgrade from the KAB, bringing a greater sense of rhythm and drive, less noise, greater clarity and dynamics, and improved pitch and timing (amongst many other things) - all of which combine to give you much more insight into music, allowing it to 'breathe' more freely and really unlocking the magic contained in those grooves.

The other significant factor is that, when fitting the off-board PSU, KAB retain the original unit underneath the platter, leaving a magnetic field surrounding the playing area traversed by the cartridge, and this has quite a detrimental effect on sound quality, causing hum in some circumstances, and giving an 'opaque' characteristic to music that when identified is quite unpleasant. Therefore, if you're using the KAB PSU, a free upgrade is to take the platter off and remove the original PSU and casing. The improvement in sound quality is easily heard!

I can go into more detail on the PSU issue should you wish if you outline any specific information required :smoking:

As far as the KAB-modified stock tonearm goes (with fluid damper) - I also had mine Cardas-rewired; it is very good (fitted with a decent headshell like the Sumiko), but again, much like with the PSU, things move onto another level entrirely when substituting it for the likes of a Jelco (either the 250 or 750, depending on what cartridge you're using).

What holds the Technics arm back, even when KAB-modified, is that the armtube is quite resonant (as indeed most are), but not in a 'pleasant' or euphonic way. The main resonant arm mode gives a 'peaky, 'shouty' quality to the sound which is very obvious once something much better behaved (damped) in that respect is fitted such as a Jelco or SME.

Therefore, not only is distortion lowered quite significantly, but the higher quality bearings on the Jelco and tighter tolerances in terms of overall engineering, enable the cartridge to reveal so much more musical information it's frightening!

Again, I can go into more detail on this if you wish, and handle any specifics you may have.

Hopefully that should keep you going for now :cool:

Marco.

jfine
22-08-2009, 18:04
Hi,

Welcome to AOS. What's your first name and where are you from? :)

Well, since I own the same T/T as you (a MK5) and have had it both fully KAB'd and (now) Time-step'd, fitted with a Jelco SA-750D (and also Isonoes), I'm probably qualified to comment...

With regard to the two PSUs, the time-step is a no-brainer upgrade from the KAB, bringing a greater sense of rhythm and drive, less noise, greater clarity and dynamics, and improved pitch and timing (amongst many other things) - all of which combine to give you much more insight into the music, allowing it to 'breathe' more freely and really unlocking the magic contained in those grooves.

The other significant factor is that, when fitting the off-board PSU, KAB retain the original unit underneath the platter, leaving a magnetic field surrounding the playing area traversed by the cartridge, and this has quite a detrimental effect on sound quality, causing hum in some circumstances, and giving an 'opaque' characteristic to music that when identified is quite unpleasant. Therefore, if you're using the KAB PSU, a free upgrade is to take the platter off and remove the original PSU and casing. The improvement in sound quality is easily heard!

I can go into more detail on the PSU issue should you wish if you outline the specific information required :smoking:

As far as the KAB-modified stock tonearm goes (with fluid damper) - I also had mine Cardas-rewired; it is very good (fitted with a decent headshell like the Sumiko), but again, much like with the PSU, things move onto another level entrirely when substituting it for the likes of a Jelco (either the 250 or 750, depending on what cartridge you're using).

What holds the Technics arm back, even when KAB-modified, is that the armtube is quite resonant (as indeed most are), but not in a 'pleasant' or euphonic way. The main resonant arm mode gives a 'peaky, 'shouty' quality to the sound which is very obvious once something much better behaved (damped) in that respect is fitted such as a Jelco or SME.

Therefore, not only is distortion lowered quite significantly, but the higher quality bearings on the Jelco and tighter tolerances in terms of overall engineering, enable the cartridge to reveal so much more musical information it's frightening!

Again, I can go into more detail on this if you wish, and handle any specifics you may have.

Hopefully that should keep you going for now :cool:

Marco.

Thanks for reply. I'm from West Oregon USA. As far as my name I could give you a false one to appease you but instead I'll be honest and say that my personal preference is to keep my personal stuff, well personal. :) Don't take it personal. :) Anyways guys it's smart practice not to leave some of your stuff around the internet. Just call me jfine.

I actually would like more info on the KAB vs Timestep issue. What I'm looking for is the technical reasons why. I have heard both sides (not all) to this story, and will say that what I've found is that there's a lot of very enticing and colorful metaphors used when comparing. I've talked with Kevin @ KAB and I'm aware that they [KAB/soundhifi] both know of each other's designs and reasons/arguments to their choices. (I don't however want to start anything). One thing I have noticed is that KAB does not hang out or push his products as hard, so that might be the reason why some people will be swayed by listening to the other product rather forward advertising. I mean, soundhifi does talk about the KAB. Know what I'm sayin? The 2 websites are very different as well. Another selling point. Sometimes, when things (mods) are very close, you hear what you want to hear or what was told to hear. I've done that with power cables, and man I still have a hard time deciding on those.

Also did you have the Isonoes before your Timestep/tonearm upgrade? Did you also use the Timestep upgrade by itself for a while without any other changes?

I've also heard about the magnetic field issue with the old motor, and I did try that, but to be honest, I didn't hear a difference. (So I painstakingly put it back, PITA, cussing myself the whole time). Wonder if that can even be measured. Also I wonder if removing the motor becomes more apparent with the Timestep? Shouldn't, but who knows? Besides, what about the magnets directly under the platter? Must be a different kind of field or not as strong. Any comments on that?

But back to the arms, this is one area that I find hard to make a choice. This mainly due to I dont want to spend that kind of dough and find out it really isn't that much different. Ever done that? I have. I will say that my arm has some cotton batting inside front and back, to help with resonance. I also have a plastic plug in the back where the extra weight screws into--that little metal plate may cause a ring. But those two mods are probably subjective. I know exactly what you mean by 'peaky, 'shouty', that, to me, went away with the fluid damper. I use it half full. I also hear very good arguments about the quality of the bearings/tolerances in the stock arm. Both sides always have good arguments, dang. Like the one about the technics arm costs being cheap but would be as high dollar as some other arms if it weren't mass produced. Not easy to make that bearing setup either. You know the Jelco/SME LOOK better to most people, I will say that. Hard for most people not to be psychologically affected by that. Not to get off the subject too much, but I'm a function over form guy, I dont care much what my gear looks like, I have never drooled over the looks of high dollar TT's, just doesn't hit my you know what I guess :confused:

The last part of the equation is the kind of music I listen to. I don't listen to classical/symphony, which from what I hear brings out a lot of these small nuances. I dont listen to jazz, punk, metal, rap, or country either. (I know sad isnt it?, But this is my vinyl choice, Digitally I listen to a lot of things). I listen to mostly 60's/70's and some later rock. I've always thought that this kind of music first of all most is not recorded that well, and so I dont hear good source. But sometimes I'll pull out a floyd or parsons but even then it's only as good as the source, right?

So having said all that, the differences between the PSU's/tonearms leave me skeptical. But that's why I'm here, to hear other people's experiences since it's cheaper than to just go buy it all. :) I very much appreciate your response, thanks!
.

Marco
22-08-2009, 18:30
Hi J (we'll call you that then, but personally I don't see any issues of 'security' with giving a first name only :))

There's a lot to digest there, and as I never rush my responses, I'll need some time to put my thoughts together to answer the points you've raised properly.

Bear with me and I'll come back to you later :cool:

Meanwhile, could I ask that you pop into the welcome area and introduce yourself and the system you're using (as we ask of all our new members)?

Cheers!

Marco.

SteveW
22-08-2009, 20:00
Be careful jfine...cos we'll groom ya.

DSJR
22-08-2009, 20:10
I was always taught to do the deck first, followed by the arm.

I was offered a shagged tecchie arm to play with. one thing that surprised me was how light weight the tube is. As the bearings are so good, i wonder if there's any mileage in someone making a heavier and better damped tube with dedicated counterweight. this may be possible to do for not much dosh, although Technics wouldn't be interested it seems.

There is another Jelco arm or two around. I don't know how much better the cheaper options are when compared to the standard/modified arm, but it wouldn't hurt to find out - Mr Cawley sir?????

Marco
23-08-2009, 20:55
Hi Jeff,


I actually would like more info on the KAB vs Timestep issue. What I'm looking for is the technical reasons why.


Not my area, I'm afraid. There are others here though who are qualified to comment whom I'm sure would be more than willing to offer you the benefit of their expertise.


I have heard both sides (not all) to this story, and will say that what I've found is that there's a lot of very enticing and colorful metaphors used when comparing.


Indeed; such is the way with hi-fi. All I can say is that I have no vested interest in either KAB or Sound Hi-fi modifications/products - I rate and have used both, so any "colorful metaphors" I may have used in reference to either are genuine and simply the results of what I hear.

Until I discovered Sound Hi-fi (and Dave Cawley) and was introduced to the Time-Step PSU, Jelco, etc, I used the KAB products with great success, and indeed eulogised about them on many forums, including here. Kevin's Technics T/T modifications and his considerable research into the design are what got me into the Techy and the whole 'D/D thing'.

But as with anything in hi-fi, new boys come on the block, and raise the game further still, which was where Dave Cawley and Sound Hi-fi came in...


I've talked with Kevin @ KAB and I'm aware that they [KAB/soundhifi] both know of each other's designs and reasons/arguments to their choices. (I don't however want to start anything). One thing I have noticed is that KAB does not hang out or push his products as hard, so that might be the reason why some people will be swayed by listening to the other product rather forward advertising.


I've also spoken with Kevin on the phone, and we've exchanged numerous emails on the subject of the SL-1200/1210. I have the utmost respect for him and also his products. He's a helpful chap, although he does perhaps sometimes take on more work than he can realistically handle, which can lead to considerable delays in orders being released, particularly to UK customers.

Kevin and Dave are just different characters (as engineers they also have different approaches), and the way they run their respective businesses reflects this. Certainly Dave advertises more rigorously, probably because he's come in at a point where the modified SL-1200/1210 is really taking off now, due not just to his level of advertising, but the numerous reviews on audio forums and in hi-fi magazines, so quite naturally he wishes to maximise his slice of the action. Business is business, after all. Dave is just a little more 'proactive' in his approach - no bad thing, IMO.

Furthermore, he's very passionate about high quality direct-drive T/Ts, and a more methodical and meticulous designer, you'll rarely meet. He's also an absolute pleasure to deal with and extremely efficient in terms of the service he offers to customers. Dave is, all-in-all, a very switched-on chap.


Sometimes, when things (mods) are very close, you hear what you want to hear or what was told to hear. I've done that with power cables, and man I still have a hard time deciding on those.


I know what you mean, but for me, as good as the KAB mods are for the SL-1200/1210, the Sound Hi-fi ones take it to another level. The Time-Step PSU just simply ekes out more performance. Power cables are a thorny subject, but I've always found no trouble hearing pretty big differences between a bog-standard kettle lead and, say, the Transparent Reference cables I'm currently using.


Also did you have the Isonoes before your Timestep/tonearm upgrade? Did you also use the Timestep upgrade by itself for a while without any other changes?


No to both questions. I bought the Isonoes from Kevin (along with my table and all the KAB mods) and had all that from day one. The Time Step came much later.


I've also heard about the magnetic field issue with the old motor, and I did try that, but to be honest, I didn't hear a difference.


Mmmm... That's very strange, as it's most noticeable to me (and others I know), but then there are so many variables with these things it's impossible to always get the same results in every situation.


(So I painstakingly put it back, PITA, cussing myself the whole time). Wonder if that can even be measured.


Why did you bother putting back the original PSU if you've got a PS-1200? It's not doing anything. I'd have just left it out and be done with it.


Also I wonder if removing the motor becomes more apparent with the Timestep? Shouldn't, but who knows? Besides, what about the magnets directly under the platter? Must be a different kind of field or not as strong. Any comments on that?


For me it just makes sense not to have a big lump of ferrous metal with a defunct PSU in it underneath generating a field where a 'delicate' MC cartridge is retrieving musical information. It's just bad practice, in my opinion. I'm surprised that Technics didn't think of this and put it somewhere else, perhaps underneath the plinth. No idea about what effect the magnets under the platter have, but I'm of the opinion that one less field existing is an improvement.


But back to the arms, this is one area that I find hard to make a choice. This mainly due to I dont want to spend that kind of dough and find out it really isn't that much different.


Well, to be quite blunt, if you replace the modded Technics arm with, say a Jelco SA-750D, and you don't hear a big difference, then I'd give up your interests in hi-fi! That particular upgrade is definitely not a subtle one, however much depends on what cartridge is going to be used. What are your plans in that area?


I know exactly what you mean by 'peaky, 'shouty', that, to me, went away with the fluid damper.


The fluid damper reduces the effect but when you fit something that is fundamentally much better engineered such as the Jelco, it renders the stock Technics arm, fluid-damped or not, as pretty poor second-class citizen. You're simply moving up to another league entirely. Have you not had your arm Cardas-rewired? That makes much more of a difference than the fluid damping. Also what headshell are you using? The stock Technics one is only good enough for a budget moving magnet cartridge.


I also hear very good arguments about the quality of the bearings/tolerances in the stock arm. Both sides always have good arguments, dang. Like the one about the technics arm costs being cheap but would be as high dollar as some other arms if it weren't mass produced.


The quality of the bearings on the stock arm are very good - this is not the arm's weak point, and yes it would cost much more if it were made by a smaller manufacturer with considerably less available resources. However, on a Jelco or an SME you not only have superb quality bearings, but an equally high quality armtube, particularly in the case of the SME. Make no mistake, the stock Technics arm in whatever guise is but a toy in comparison to either of the above, but the only way you will discover this is to fit a better tonearm and listen! :)


You know the Jelco/SME LOOK better to most people, I will say that. Hard for most people not to be psychologically affected by that. Not to get off the subject too much, but I'm a function over form guy, I dont care much what my gear looks like, I have never drooled over the looks of high dollar TT's, just doesn't hit my you know what I guess


It's got nothing whatsoever to do with looks, the Jelcos and SMEs are just far superior tonearms - period, *if* you're using a high quality MC cartridge. The stock arm, modified or not, is more than good enough for MM cartridges, which put less demand on a tonearm. I do love the look of the SA-750D, but I can assure you that I did not buy it for that reason. I too am a function over form guy - I wouldn't use multi-level Mana supports, which some say look like rejects from an oil rig, if that wasn't the case! :eyebrows:


The last part of the equation is the kind of music I listen to. I don't listen to classical/symphony, which from what I hear brings out a lot of these small nuances. I dont listen to jazz, punk, metal, rap, or country either. (I know sad isnt it?, But this is my vinyl choice, Digitally I listen to a lot of things). I listen to mostly 60's/70's and some later rock. I've always thought that this kind of music first of all most is not recorded that well, and so I dont hear good source. But sometimes I'll pull out a floyd or parsons but even then it's only as good as the source, right?


Indeed. It also depends what you listen for in music. I'm less into analysing small nuances than I am maximising a turntable's ability to extract emotion and musical communication from recordings - in essence to get right at the heart of the musical message. This for me is what hi-fi is all about, and the Sound Hi-fi-modified SL-1210 provides the requisite level of insight to put a huge smile on my face every time I listen.

Honestly, Jeff, I'd quite happily put my modified SL-1210 up against ANY turntable on the marketplace and feel that it would outperform most, and compete admirably with the very best - yes, that good!!


So having said all that, the differences between the PSU's/tonearms leave me skeptical. But that's why I'm here, to hear other people's experiences since it's cheaper than to just go buy it all. :) I very much appreciate your response, thanks!


You're more than welcome. It's all about sharing experiences and helping each other out - something which is at the core of what AOS is all about. Perhaps next time make your posts shorter, so it won't take me so long to reply! :cool:

Marco.

jfine
23-08-2009, 21:06
OK, thanks. I'll take things one at a time and make it shorter. :)

DSJR
23-08-2009, 21:29
I suspect Dave is more vociferous with his website is to get more people aware of what he does for a living. The last dealer I worked for tended to use his business as a cash-cow and he soon pulled the plug when he realised he wasn't going to get loads of dosh out of it, including a substantial rent on the premises, which he also owned. His ex-business partner went the other way and increased his profile. He's still going last I heard and is something of a legend in certain circles (DEFINITELY non SL1200 circles though :D).

jfine
23-08-2009, 22:32
Also did you have the Isonoes before your Timestep/tonearm upgrade? Did you also use the Timestep upgrade by itself for a while without any other changes?


No to both questions. I bought the Isonoes from Kevin (along with my table and all the KAB mods) and had all that from day one. The Time Step came much later.

So about the second question. When you started using the Timestep, what other mods happened? I guess what I'm driving at is if you changed something else besides just the Timestamp when you got it, how can you know the Timestamp was better than the KAB PSU sonically?

Marco
23-08-2009, 22:46
Hi Jeff,

When I took my T/T down to Dave to have the Time-Step fitted, we listened to some music with it as it was (with the KAB PSU fitted) and then afterwards. The difference wasn't subtle... Then when it got it home and used it in my own system the improvement was even more obvious! :)

The Jelco SA-750D was fitted before the Timestep. Basically, the SL-1210 with Jelco/Time Step, outperformed the same with the KAB PSU.

Marco.

jfine
23-08-2009, 23:09
Hi Jeff,

When I took my T/T down to Dave to have the Time-Step fitted, we listened to some music with it as it was (with the KAB PSU fitted) and then afterwards. The difference wasn't subtle... Then when it got it home and used it in my own system the improvement was even more obvious! :)

The Jelco SA-750D was fitted before the Timestep. Basically, the SL-1210 with Jelco/Time Step, outperformed the same with the KAB PSU.

Marco.

I see, thank you for clarifying.

About putting the old motor back, I just did cause that's just me. Sometimes I do things that are not logical to others, but seem so to me. Who knows maybe I'll take it out again. :)

jfine
24-08-2009, 17:41
It's got nothing whatsoever to do with looks, the Jelcos and SMEs are just far superior tonearms - period, *if* you're using a high quality MC cartridge. The stock arm, modified or not, is more than good enough for MM cartridges, which put less demand on a tonearm.

Yea I'm talking to a guy over on vinylasylum who has had experience with the Jelco/1200, and for different reasons now using KAB fluid/cardas setup, AT150 MLX MM, high compliance, which is probably a wash with the Jelco vs stock, like you say. He really liked the Jelco with a DL-103 though. But that got me thinking. I have a Dyna HOMC currently. It's just preference sometimes, whether it's sound and/or features. I got out of LOMC's a while ago and found while LOMC's can have a great sound, (had these on a few other tables/phono pre's, and the 1200), it seemed like I was losing...something. Like you also say, extract emotion--that can be a very individualized experience. Or maybe I didn't have the right combo/synergy, or dont listen to the right music, who knows?

Also remember when you say things like "Well, to be quite blunt, if you replace the modded Technics arm with, say a Jelco SA-750D, and you don't hear a big difference, then I'd give up your interests in hi-fi!" this can be a system dependent situation, or a preference one, even if indeed there is a difference in sound.

Heck I got back into all this analog stuff some years ago when I heard an old cassette tape of Plastic Ono Band in the cheapest 1988 honda cassette player in the world, But that sound drew me in, it was a bit unreal. It wasn't the clearest, comprehensive sound for sure, but it had something my digital system at that time did not.

Again I'm just always looking, curious about how upgraded parts (or even downgraded) sound better to some given the other components used, room, source, etc., and am always wondering will it work better for me. I really do try and get other peoples take cause I get tired of spending the wrong way. And I often wonder if I'm matching correctly in a certain area. Used to do that with old american V-8's too, the mods for those are simply endless. You really can mismatch in one area, and sometimes it takes a real feel for things to sort out the mess. Did I hear somewhere americans mod everything?? Ah well got off track, back to some CCR, thanks for your efforts! :)

Nigel
26-08-2009, 14:18
Is the Time-Step power supply easy enough to fit? I'm thinking of getting one.

Ammonite Acoustics
26-08-2009, 15:07
Is the Time-Step power supply easy enough to fit? I'm thinking of getting one.

In short, yes it is - very easy.

mulane
27-08-2009, 09:39
i wonder if there's any mileage in someone making a heavier and better damped tube with dedicated counterweight. this may be possible to do for not much dosh, although Technics wouldn't be interested it seems.
There's Funk Firm's carbon fibre armtube for the Techy of course but its ludicrously expensive. Then there's this one but I do prefer my headshells to have offset!:lol:

http://www.turntabletech.com/pickup.htm

But seriously I think there is an opening for someone to make a reasonably priced, high quality armtube for the Technics.

jfine
30-08-2009, 21:30
Cool Update! A friend of mine has a Timestep PSU, and we're going to do some comparing against the KAB PSU. He's a got a 1200 MK2. Mine's a MK5. Well, I think we may disconnect his PSU and use my table as the tester for both, so all other things should be equal.

Trying to smoke out the reasons why the 2 are different build-wise is probably not, in the end, the way to compare--just good ole listening! :smoking: Well, if anyone's interested I'll post back later. :)

Marco
30-08-2009, 21:42
Nice one, J - keep us posted! :cool:

Marco.

jfine
15-09-2009, 04:16
Damn KAB has a new design PSU now. Oh well, as far as my comparisons have been going, I can't tell a bit of difference between my old KAB PSU and the Timestep. And I mean I have tried my @ss off to hear it. I wonder if the UK mains are noiser in some areas and the timestep/kab acts like a line conditioner. Cant seem to find anybody round the states that hear what Marco has heard. Oh well, I had to know. And no I am NOT going to buy the new KAB. :)

Dave Cawley
15-09-2009, 06:50
The new KAB is a switch mode................

I had hoped they would have corrected their comments on the motor/strobe current. It would have been a good opportunity.

Regards

Dave

Marco
15-09-2009, 09:02
Hi J,

Thanks for the update :)

If you don't hear it, you don't hear it - end of. For me, the difference the Timestep makes is very significant.

Marco.

jfine
15-09-2009, 18:43
The new KAB is a switch mode................

I had hoped they would have corrected their comments on the motor/strobe current. It would have been a good opportunity.

Regards

Dave

Is there something about a switch mode.....?

Marco
15-09-2009, 18:44
Yes - they're usually rather noisy and not generally the best in serious hi-fi applications. Much depends on how they're implemented, though. I'm sure that Kevin has come up with a clever way of utilising them.

Marco.

jfine
15-09-2009, 18:46
Hi J,

Thanks for the update :)

If you don't hear it, you don't hear it - end of. For me, the difference the Timestep makes is very significant.

Marco.

Hi, yes I dont hear it. How does that saying go, dont believe everything you DONT hear? :) hmmm...

jfine
15-09-2009, 18:49
Yes - they're usually rather noisy and not generally the best in serious hi-fi applications. Much depends on how they're implemented, though. I'm sure that Kevin has come up with a clever way of utilising them.

Marco.

I see. So KAB uses something that is generally noisy like you say, I wonder why they would do something like that? :scratch: Guess the only way would be to actually try it before the ole judgement call, eh?

Marco
15-09-2009, 18:55
I'm not "judging" anything - far from it; merely commenting on my previous experience with some equipment using SMPSs. I will stress though that they *can* be made to work very well, too! It depends on the application/implementation.

Marco.

jfine
15-09-2009, 18:58
I'm not "judging" anything - far from it; merely commenting on my previous experience with some equipment using SMPSs. I will stress though that they *can* be made to work very well, too! It depends on the application.

Marco.

Haha didnt say you were. I was talking about myself. Man am I in a touchy thread? :confused:

Marco
15-09-2009, 19:06
Haha didnt say you were

Well since, other than you, I'm the only one currently active on this thread, it's a reasonable assumption to make ;)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
15-09-2009, 19:47
It's the general rule in Hi Fi that you replace a switch mode power supply with a linear one to improve performance.

But as they have never owned up to their confusion over strobe current and the 50hz mains over here.................

Dave

jfine
15-09-2009, 20:04
Well since, other than you, I'm the only one currently active on this thread, it's a reasonable assumption to make ;)

Marco.

I figured it was just that, what you said, in that way, yes just like that! :)

Anyways, I'm still futzing around with these PSU's and I've about exhausted my testing, I even had my kids come in and listen here and there. You'd think they'd have better ears than me, or not. :scratch: I'm really wondering like I said if it aint some issue with UK mains/line conditioning, cleaning up the sound, where the KAB does not work as well on that level. I'll never know I guess, maybe I should take a trip someday...:)

Marco
15-09-2009, 20:10
Could be, J. No offence either, but perhaps your system doesn't quite have the resolution to reveal the difference?

You'd certainly be welcome though to pop over sometime to the UK for a listen :cool:

Marco.

jfine
15-09-2009, 20:17
Could be, J. No offence either, but perhaps your system doesn't quite have the resolution to reveal the difference?

You'd certainly be welcome though to pop over sometime to the UK for a listen :cool:

Marco.

Anythings possible, even placebo effect. You mean you wouldn't consider popping over here? I dont drink, so you'd have to byob :)

P.S. I have tried this on my system and my buddies who lent me the PSU, and, I also made wav files besides straight listening for study.

jfine
15-09-2009, 20:23
It's the general rule in Hi Fi that you replace a switch mode power supply with a linear one to improve performance.

But as they have never owned up to their confusion over strobe current and the 50hz mains over here.................

Dave

I see. They say the same about soundhifi, confused, but be that as it may, and I dont want to really talk about that anyways, cause you both could be right and you both could be wrong, or one is right and the other's wrong, and both say they are right, (are there anymore combos? :doh:), like I said no one knows til they tried it.

I think both companies are smart enough to make "sound" designs, so all the switching stuff I'd be willing to bet has been thought about and if it were a problem I'm sure it wouldn't have been considered.
.

Marco
15-09-2009, 20:24
You mean you wouldn't consider popping over here?


It's definitely in our plans to visit the States at some point, but it won't be for a few years :)

What's West Oregon like and which part of America is it in (north, south, east, west, etc?) I'm sorry but my US geography isn't quite up to scratch.

I like places that are 'off the beaten track' somewhere in the country.

Marco.

jfine
15-09-2009, 20:29
It's definitely in our plans to visit the States at some point, but it won't be for a few years.

What's West Oregon and which part of America is it? I'm sorry but my US geography isn't quite the best.

I like places that are 'off the beaten track' in the countryside somewhere.

Marco.

Well I mean like the West side of Oregon state, well really NorthWest Oregon, outside of Portland. Oregon sits above California. It's not really countryside, I wish, we dont live too far from country-like areas though, wish I could afford it. Out here just a lot of little cities that encircle Portland, quiet for the most part, more affordable tax-wise than closer to the city, and about 70 miles to the pacific ocean, which can be downright COLD sometimes!

Marco
15-09-2009, 21:12
Sounds cool :smoking:

Have you ever seen the film 'Duel'? It's a 1970s horror/thriller by Steven Spielberg (his first, actually). If you remember the type of landscape and area shown in the film - those are the sorts of places I like in America :)

See page 3 & 4 of this thread for details:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2711&page=3 See post #30 from Dalek Supreme D L. And #37 from The Grand Wazoo.

Where's the best place to go for that sort of stuff? I like 'one horse towns' and 'the land that time forgot' kind of places, full of old-fashioned American Diners in the country, just off the road. 'Deliverance' kinda funny little towns, too! :eek:

If you read on from pages 3 & 4, you'll see that it all gets a bit weird............. :eyebrows:

Marco.

jfine
15-09-2009, 21:57
Sounds cool :smoking:

Have you ever seen the film 'Duel'? It's a 1970s horror/thriller by Steven Spielberg (his first, actually). If you remember the type of landscape and area shown in the film - those are the sorts of places I like in America :)

See page 3 & 4 of this thread for details:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2711&page=3

Where's the best place to go for that sort of stuff? I like 'one horse towns' and 'the land that time forgot' kind of places.

If you read on from pages 3 & 4, you'll see that it all gets a bit weird............. :eyebrows:

Marco.

Duel? Dennis Weaver? CLASSIC! I remember the first time I saw that as a kid, that truck scared the crap out of me :lolsign:

That kind of landscape not too common up here in the green state. Too much water and lots of trees :smoking: But as you travel east from here, there are long streches like that, just not as desolate looking. Hmm, I'd say your best bet might be southern California, defintely parts of Nevada, never been down those parts myself. Long flat highways, desert looking, then maybe a small town or two with a gas station. Now deliverance, um, well, you may stumble on forest/brush/streams like that all over Oregon. Although the hillbillies, they're all down south, I hope :o

Marco
15-09-2009, 22:04
Hi J,

Noted :)

What I'd like to do is fly as near as possible to one of those places, then hire a big (comfortable) car and tour around the area for a 2-3 weeks, visiting all sorts of mad joints like you describe, so where would the nearest airport be? Remember, I'd be coming in from the UK.

Also, what about around Louisiana? Is there some mad shit there? I love Creole cuisine!

Marco.

Dave Cawley
15-09-2009, 22:19
so all the switching stuff I'd be willing to bet has been thought about and if it were a problem I'm sure it wouldn't have been considered.

Could you justify this please, and let me know your reasoning. And could you tell me why they are still confused about our 50Hz mains frequency?

Oh, and would you bet $1,000 USD ? 'cos I will............

Regards

Dave

The Grand Wazoo
15-09-2009, 23:13
Well I mean like the West side of Oregon state, well really NorthWest Oregon, outside of Portland. Oregon sits above California. It's not really countryside, I wish, we dont live too far from country-like areas though, wish I could afford it. Out here just a lot of little cities that encircle Portland, quiet for the most part, more affordable tax-wise than closer to the city, and about 70 miles to the pacific ocean, which can be downright COLD sometimes!

Hi J,
I spent a while with my family rolling down through West Oregon on a holiday a few years back. Vancouver BC - Crescent City (Redwood National Park) CA & back again. We didn't go into Portland but spent a day mooching around Oregon City, which I think got left behind a bit when Stumptown grew!
I was struck by how some of the rural areas away from the mountains were very reminiscent of parts of England - gently rolling green hills. You've got more Christmas Tree farms than us though!
I plan to go back sometime - we liked it.

jfine
16-09-2009, 02:38
Hi J,

Noted :)

What I'd like to do is fly as near as possible to one of those places, then hire a big (comfortable) car and tour around the area for a 2-3 weeks, visiting all sorts of mad joints like you describe, so where would the nearest airport be? Remember, I'd be coming in from the UK.

Also, what about around Louisiana? Is there some mad shit there? I love Creole cuisine!

Marco.

Well, there's PDX in Portland, but I dunno, I think for you the points of entry are LAX in Los Angeles, or Vancouver B.C. for the west coast, then from there you could fly to wherever. If it were me, I think since I was in LA, I would check all that out, I mean you got Hollywood Hills, and Beverly Hills, then maybe head a bit east and check out those long lonesome highways, or maybe head south down to San Diego, which is a stones throw to Tijuana Mexico :smoking:

Never been down to New Orleans, Mardi Gras town, but since Katrina, it might not be as it was. I have heard stories though of those long Mardi Gras parties...:eyebrows:

jfine
16-09-2009, 04:06
Could you justify this please, and let me know your reasoning. And could you tell me why they are still confused about our 50Hz mains frequency?

Oh, and would you bet $1,000 USD ? 'cos I will............

Regards

Dave

You must have tried the new KAB PSU to be confident enough to bet 1000 bucks! I'm dying to know what you think of it. Really I would like to hear your take and comparisons.

Dave, my statement is IMO. Just like some other audio sites I've read things about, opinions. No one can prove a particular audio product has been completely thought thru for every single possible scenario, including failure and artifacts. No one and nobody.

I haven't a clue as to why "they" are still confused. I think you should ask them, in your best polite manner. :) In fact, I'd be very much interested to hear that conversation. Can I get a transcript?:eyebrows:

jfine
16-09-2009, 04:23
Hi J,
I spent a while with my family rolling down through West Oregon on a holiday a few years back. Vancouver BC - Crescent City (Redwood National Park) CA & back again. We didn't go into Portland but spent a day mooching around Oregon City, which I think got left behind a bit when Stumptown grew!
I was struck by how some of the rural areas away from the mountains were very reminiscent of parts of England - gently rolling green hills. You've got more Christmas Tree farms than us though!
I plan to go back sometime - we liked it.

Hi, there's a LOT of christmas tree farms around here, you'd think we'd get a better price, well 40 bucks last year for a very nice Douglas Fir, floor to ceiling high. Well it's a good price I guess. They end up shipping a lot down to other states and Mexico I hear.

Oregon City, been there many times, for me it's sort of a pass thru city, nothing much to see. Yes that was the original city, but I believe because Portland was closer to the Columbia River and had more room for docks, Oregon City was left behind. Downtown Portland still has some kind of tour in the summer where they take you down underneath some of the old buildings down there. Legend has it (late 1800's?) there are a network of tunnels down there, where you'd get "Shanghai'd". They might knock you out in a bar or something, take you down below and you'd wake up on a ship forced to work. Or you might have to wait for a ship, they would take your shoes and put broken glass down there to make it hard to escape while you're waiting :mental: I haven't read all this link but it might be interesting: http://cgs-mthood.tripod.com/shanghai_tunnels_FAQ.htm

Whew on another note, Yes we actually do have some nice green rolling type hills, out of the city, kind of country like, not too far is Newberg, and a lot of wine valleys out there. Always wanted to own something like that.

Dave Cawley
16-09-2009, 06:33
OK, got it. You convinced me that it was a fact rather than your opinion, apologies for misunderstanding that. I have designed so many power supplies and watch the world for inspiration. Switch Mode is the easy way out and world approval supplies may be bought for less than $10. There is a good reason why audiophiles use linear power supplies.

Until KAB understand and change their web site, there is no point in me talking to them, they have to understand power supply design first.

My $1,000 USD bet is still on, are you going to take it?

Regards

Dave

jfine
16-09-2009, 19:06
OK, got it. You convinced me that it was a fact rather than your opinion, apologies for misunderstanding that. I have designed so many power supplies and watch the world for inspiration. Switch Mode is the easy way out and world approval supplies may be bought for less than $10. There is a good reason why audiophiles use linear power supplies.

Until KAB understand and change their web site, there is no point in me talking to them, they have to understand power supply design first.

My $1,000 USD bet is still on, are you going to take it?

Regards

Dave

Hi, you convinced yourself it was fact, not me. No apology needed. :)

Have you tried it? If not, you cant know for sure.

I'm sure they understand power supply design, you're being facetious, right? :confused: It would appear that, from reading the KAB site, the same conclusions could be drawn about soundhifi power supply design. :doh:

I'm not going to bet anything with you. I would never do something so ridiculous. 1000 bucks thru a forum from one country to another, and I wholeheartily trust you. :lolsign:

P.S. Can you please point to where I can find "world approval supplies" for 10 bucks? Really I do have a need for something like that. Thanks.

Dave Cawley
16-09-2009, 20:05
Hi John

Come on, if you are as sure as you say, lay that bet of $1K ?? You told us all it was so.

If you want the 10 bucks PSU, please give me your company details, bank references and a MOQ of 250 units and I'll certainly fix you up with a supplier in China. It's time to put your money where your mouth is? (this is English slang, not an insult)

Regards

Dave

Dave Cawley
16-09-2009, 20:22
same conclusions could be drawn about soundhifi power supply design.

Hi John

Could you justify this please?

Thanks

Dave

jfine
16-09-2009, 20:58
Hi John

Come on, if you are as sure as you say, lay that bet of $1K ?? You told us all it was so.

If you want the 10 bucks PSU, please give me your company details, bank references and a MOQ of 250 units and I'll certainly fix you up with a supplier in China. It's time to put your money where your mouth is? (this is English slang, not an insult)

Regards

Dave

Answer my question first. Have you tried it?

jfine
16-09-2009, 20:58
same conclusions could be drawn about soundhifi power supply design.

Hi John

Could you justify this please?

Thanks

Dave

You first :)

Dave Cawley
16-09-2009, 21:16
Hi John

You make assertions, and I challenge them, this is a forum after all? Why do you not respond ?

Are you KAB ? I'm beginning to think you are, why else would you not back up your claims or answer my questions?

Are you afraid to take my bet? We won't think badly of you if you cop out, I would be nervous in your shoes too................

Regards

Dave

jfine
16-09-2009, 21:28
Hi John

You make assertions, and I challenge them, this is a forum after all? Why do you not respond ?

Are you KAB ? I'm beginning to think you are, why else would you not back up your claims or answer my questions?

Are you afraid to take my bet? We won't think badly of you if you cop out, I would be nervous in your shoes too................

Regards

Dave

Answer my question first.

Dave Cawley
16-09-2009, 22:21
Will you take my bet, yes/no? I asked you the questions immediately after your comments, instead of answering them you ask me questions? Not too clever. We are all waiting for your answer, why are you so evasive?

Let's put this to bed, just answer my questions and we can move on?

If you don't answer this time, I can only assume you don't know, and you made it all up? This is your chance to stand up and be counted.

Do you remember Dallas and Pam's dream in 1986?

Regards

Dave

jfine
16-09-2009, 22:31
Will you take my bet, yes/no? I asked you the questions immediately after your comments, instead of answering them you ask me questions? Not too clever. We are all waiting for your answer, why are you so evasive?

Let's put this to bed, just answer my questions and we can move on?

If you don't answer this time, I can only assume you don't know, and you made it all up? This is your chance to stand up and be counted.

Do you remember Dallas and Pam's dream in 1986?

Regards

Dave

I'm really not trying to be clever. I asked you have you tried it first, (see post 45) and you still wont answer. Besides, I've already answered your bet question. :mental: (see post 45). I would however like you to answer my question.

Right back at you if you dont answer this time I can only assume you have not :)

P.S. I dont know who Dallas/Pam are, but I'll look it up :)

UPDATE: Is it the TV show Dallas? I never really watched it, sorry!

Dave Cawley
17-09-2009, 07:42
Hi John

In your post 45 you asked me about 10 buck ($10 USD) switch mode PSU's and I replied to you but I have not yet received your order and or your company details. The second line in your post 45 is clearly a rhetorical question combined with a statement.

My post 39 contains a bet and that is still up for grabs. But surely you don't expect me to give you the answer before you take it?

Also in my post 39 I asked you for justification and reasoning, you have not yet provided this.

It is Forum etiquette to answer the first question first, and I would like you to answer my questions raised in post 39 before we go any further. This could and should be educational to those on this forum.

Regards

Dave

Marco
17-09-2009, 07:52
Is it the TV show Dallas? I never really watched it, sorry!


This thread is much better than Dallas ever was! ;)

:popcorn:

Marco.

leo
17-09-2009, 08:01
This thread is much better than Dallas ever was! ;)

:popcorn:

Marco.

Like a more entertaining version of ping-pong:eyebrows:

DaveK
17-09-2009, 08:03
I remember Mr Cawley posting quite chastisingly when I and Steve Toy went off thread on a tangent, having a mild spat. Sauce, goose and ganders spring to mind!! :confused: :confused: .
Just my two penn'orth.
Cheers,

Dave Cawley
17-09-2009, 08:19
Guys

I'm glad you are enjoying it, I predict we are all about to learn some interesting things, watch this space.

DaveK, are you contributing to the off topic area, I can't find anything in your post at all relevant to the on topic subject? At least my diversion into Dallas was just a one liner buried in the main subject? DaveK what is your view on SMPS ? (this is the on topic part!)

Regards

Dave

Marco
17-09-2009, 08:25
Let's keep this civil, guys. No-one here holds the monopoly on thread drift! ;)

Besides, the discussion is largely still about PSUs, which is of course relevant to the original thread topic.

So, please, let's get back to the 'Dave & Jeff show'... :eyebrows:

Marco.

DaveK
17-09-2009, 09:34
DaveK, are you contributing to the off topic area, I can't find anything in your post at all relevant to the on topic subject?
Regards

Dave

Dave,
Sauce, goose and ganders again :ner: .
Where did you contribute to the topic when Steve and I were having our little spat?
Regards to you.

Dave Cawley
17-09-2009, 09:52
DaveK, you missed this bit "DaveK what is your view on SMPS ? (this is the on topic part!)"

Dave

DaveK
17-09-2009, 10:04
DaveK, you missed this bit "DaveK what is your view on SMPS ? (this is the on topic part!)"

Dave

No Dave, I didn't miss it, I ignored it, which is what it merited. As you well know from my previous posts on this forum, I am an absolute newbie to serious hi-fi, but keen to learn, particularly about anything SL1200, which is why I was monitoring the thread. I know sweet B.A. about SMPS, as you well know, which is why you asked the question. I have no problem admitting that I don't know anything about a particular subject - do you get a kick out of exposing a novice's lack of knowledge?
Stop acting like the playground bully, stop playing verbal ping-pong with me and jfine and start being constructive, as you are normally.
Regards,

Dave Cawley
17-09-2009, 10:16
DaveK, well you have now derailed another thread I'm associated with, and yet again after Marco was trying to be polite. If you have something against me, please take it elsewhere, I don't want you messing up every thread I'm involved with. You have contributed nothing at all to this thread, no humour, no information, but you are just having a pop.

I ignored it, which is what it merited. No, this is the topic of the thread, what grounds do you have to say it is not merited?

Dave

Marco
17-09-2009, 10:40
Ok, guys. Let's leave it right there...

Can we please get back to the 'Dave & Jeff' instead of the 'Dave & Dave' show? The former was much more entertaining! ;)

I don't want to have to start deleting stuff, chaps.

Cheers!

Marco.

Steve Toy
17-09-2009, 11:30
I think DaveK should bow out of this thread. Dave Cawley's line of enquiry is justified and should not be broken. I share his, er, suspicions and would also like his questions answered.

DaveK
17-09-2009, 12:37
I hereby withdraw with apologies to all concerned - just thought the thread had begun to drift - no intention of upsetting anybody. :(
I shall continue to monitor the thread though as I am keen to learn.
Cheers,

Marco
17-09-2009, 12:55
No worries, matey - it's cool :smoking:

I'd like to hear again from Jeff, and this time I'd like him to be more honest about his involvement/personal relationship with KAB ;)

Marco.

Steve Toy
17-09-2009, 13:01
People who try to justify not even telling us their first name usually have something quite specific to hide beyond the usual identity theft etc. fears, don't you think?

Marco
17-09-2009, 13:34
I've never understood why *anyone* would have a problem with revealing their first name and a basic location, unless they were a secret agent or their first name (or location) was extremely unusual.

I mean, if you're 'Mike' and you live in 'London, UK' or 'Antoine' in 'Paris, France', or such like, what's the harm in saying so!!

It's not as if anyone's going to be able to come round and nick your hi-fi on the basis of divulging that information, so all this anonymous bullshit is completely unnecessary.

Jeezuz, there can't be that many 'Marcos' in Wrexham, so if you want my hi-fi, as they say in Glasgow, 'come intae mae if ye think yer hard enough'! :upyours:

Marco.

blake
17-09-2009, 19:26
I don't have a horse in this race as I don't own or plan to own a Technics or the Timestep/KAB power supplies at any point in the near future.

With respect to SMPS though, I think it might be a bit of a generalization to state that "there is good reason why audiophiles use linear power supplies" or "switch mode" is the easy way out.

As an audiophile who does own a piece of equipment (and a very good one IMO) with a switch mode power supply, I think that Marco has probably hit the nail on the head with respect to implementation being the key. I'm sure that companies like Linn (my piece of equipment is not Linn, by the way), who use switch mode power supplies in their Klimax series of amplifiers which sell for $10-$15k and other high end manufacturers using switch mode supplies would also have reasonably strong opinions on this.

That is not to say that the new KAB supply is or is not a piece of junk based on its switch mode power supply; I haven't heard it so I can't comment on it.

DSJR
17-09-2009, 20:14
Some years ago, i was given to understand that the high cost of dwindling copper reserves meant that most audio equipment would be fitted with a SMPS by now. i appreciate this info was from a few years ago.

I agree with post 70 that it's *implementation* that's the key - I mean, even Glenn croft is now using a solid state regulator in his preamps and FET's in his power amp - a huge step for him I reckon..

Perhaps those used to solid state circuits and their behaviour and sensitivity (or not) to noise on the supply can use SMPS supplies to good advantage and also make sure that little, if any, noise goes back into the mains (a problem with older Linn "brilliant" supplies I found). the KAB one may be as good as its predecessor and be cheaper to fabricate, something that is important in this current state we're in.

It's times like this when I really miss the in-depth technical reviews that products used to go through. rather than *just* getting two supplies in to hear by listening tests only, the technologies and techniques used would have been discussed in some detail and their effectiveness for the task at hand (supplying a clean supply to a techie 1200). If listening tests contradicted the technical findings, then this would start another avenue of research..

I'm rambling again and in this case, we have Marco giving the subjective results and Dave C publishing technical details on the Timestep, What we need now is a fair and unbiased evaluation of the "new" KAB supply...

Dave Cawley
17-09-2009, 20:19
And/or technical details of the KAB for comparison? And an explanation from KAB about the strobe/motor current confusion?

Regards

Dave

jfine
17-09-2009, 21:33
Well crap this is hard to put together and it's gonna be a long one (I hope I got it right), but here goes (for all you Dallas fans haha :))



Hi John

In your post 45 you asked me about 10 buck ($10 USD) switch mode PSU's and I replied to you but I have not yet received your order and or your company details. The second line in your post 45 is clearly a rhetorical question combined with a statement.

I asked you if you have tried the PSU. You did not answer. Let me try to clear this fog up for you and take it from the top, K? :)

You showed up and said,
"The new KAB is a switch mode................
I had hoped they would have corrected their comments on the motor/strobe current. It would have been a good opportunity."

I replied, "Is there something about a switch mode.....?"

Then you say,
It's the general rule in Hi Fi that you replace a switch mode power supply with a linear one to improve performance.
But as they have never owned up to their confusion over strobe current and the 50hz mains over here................."


So you answer my first question, thanks.


I replied, "I see. They say the same about soundhifi, confused, but be that as it may, and I dont want to really talk about that anyways, cause you both could be right and you both could be wrong, or one is right and the other's wrong, and both say they are right, (are there anymore combos? ), like I said no one knows til they tried it.

I think both companies are smart enough to make "sound" designs, so all the switching stuff I'd be willing to bet has been thought about and if it were a problem I'm sure it wouldn't have been considered."

Then you said,
"Could you justify this please, and let me know your reasoning. And could you tell me why they are still confused about our 50Hz mains frequency?
Oh, and would you bet $1,000 USD ? 'cos I will............"


There's your first questions. 3 I can see.


I reply, "You must have tried the new KAB PSU to be confident enough to bet 1000 bucks! I'm dying to know what you think of it. Really I would like to hear your take and comparisons.

Dave, my statement is IMO. Just like some other audio sites I've read things about, opinions. No one can prove a particular audio product has been completely thought thru for every single possible scenario, including failure and artifacts. No one and nobody.

I haven't a clue as to why "they" are still confused. I think you should ask them, in your best polite manner. In fact, I'd be very much interested to hear that conversation. Can I get a transcript?"


I said it was IMO. Read it again if you missed it. That is the answer. I also answered you about why KAB may be confused. I said dont know, you ask them. The question about the bet, I'm sorry I did not take seriously because it was nutty. :mental: but I do address later.


Then you say,
"OK, got it. You convinced me that it was a fact rather than your opinion, apologies for misunderstanding that. I have designed so many power supplies and watch the world for inspiration. Switch Mode is the easy way out and world approval supplies may be bought for less than $10. There is a good reason why audiophiles use linear power supplies.

Until KAB understand and change their web site, there is no point in me talking to them, they have to understand power supply design first.

My $1,000 USD bet is still on, are you going to take it?".


So now you just asked me another question. The same one about a bet.


I reply, "Hi, you convinced yourself it was fact, not me. No apology needed.

Have you tried it? If not, you cant know for sure.

I'm sure they understand power supply design, you're being facetious, right? It would appear that, from reading the KAB site, the same conclusions could be drawn about soundhifi power supply design.

I'm not going to bet anything with you. I would never do something so ridiculous. 1000 bucks thru a forum from one country to another, and I wholeheartily trust you.

P.S. Can you please point to where I can find "world approval supplies" for 10 bucks? Really I do have a need for something like that. Thanks."


I did ask a question, but I also have answered the bet question. Read it again. "I'm not going to bet with you". I dont know how to be more clear. Also, I'm asking you to point me where I can find 10 dollar supplies. I did not ask you to be my middleman, sending you my bank info and placing an order. That's plain nutty. If I decide to do anything, it will be thru me, not you. So if you have any info on that, forget it. After all this I dont want your help. :lol:


Then you post 2 more times,
Come on, if you are as sure as you say, lay that bet of $1K ?? You told us all it was so.

If you want the 10 bucks PSU, please give me your company details, bank references and a MOQ of 250 units and I'll certainly fix you up with a supplier in China. It's time to put your money where your mouth is? (this is English slang, not an insult)

same conclusions could be drawn about soundhifi power supply design.
Hi John
Could you justify this please?


But you did not answer me. I even asked you twice again to answer. Post 48 and 51. I believe I have answered the first 2 questions, No and forget it. Now I will answer the new one you posed. What I meant here, is that if you go read the KAB site, to me, I can draw the same conclusion that soundhifi may need to "understand power supply design first." Go read the KAB site again. Go read your site again. Both your accusations make it look like one of you is wrong, so, one could draw this conclusion about EITHER site, IMO, see?


About my question being rhetorical. It is not. I was asking you a direct question, have you tried it?


My post 39 contains a bet and that is still up for grabs. But surely you don't expect me to give you the answer before you take it?

You are clearly not reading my answers. I said I will not bet anything with you, and I gave the reasons why already. I dont expect anything really. I think I know the answer anyway, but maybe I'm wrong, dont really care now.



Also in my post 39 I asked you for justification and reasoning, you have not yet provided this.


Read again, I said it was IMO. If you feel that I am wrong about my opinion, then OK, I'm OK with that. I cannot justify this opinion, because I have no proof that a power supply designer actually went thru every process to make sure switching was not a problem. That's all I said. My opinion comes from the fact that I believe I would hear problems from others if there were something wrong with how they design supplies. So I am only guessing that they are doing something right. Maybe they are not, maybe you are not. Who knows? Cripes and who cares at this point? :lol: And I added that I'd be willing to bet...that was just a metaphorical statement. If I wanted to bet with you, brother, you would know, trust me.



It is Forum etiquette to answer the first question first, and I would like you to answer my questions raised in post 39 before we go any further. This could and should be educational to those on this forum.



Again. My statement was simply my opinion, which you said "got it" in post 44 anyhow, but then you wouldn't let up. Dont know why you keep jumping down my back. All your above questions have been answered. If I missed something I apologize, but be concise and ask again.


Now for my 2 cents for all you unbelievers IMO :smoking::

I'm just a consumer. I want to buy products that will increase the quality of playback for my 1200. When I see anyone make claims about custom add-ons, I try to make educated buying decisions. So, if you start knocking switching, or something that another company is making the same product, I want to know more details. So I start digging. I dont think 'mines better than yours', (the feeling I get from soundhifi site), and 'I'll bet you a 1000 bucks', is any indication of superior knowledge. Au contraire, that kind of attitude, to me, makes you look a bit foolish and arrogant, which is not a good character trait for a business selling/designing something that I'm interested in. It just doesn't make you look professional at all, IMO. I'm just a consumer on a forum. You're a business. I've never seen such behavior. I know this stuff obviously gets under your skin, probably for good reason, else you wouldn't be so defensive.

All I'm doing is reading this stuff on these 2 business websites and trying to make sense of it. And the contradictions are flat annoying. Someone mentioned bully, and I thought the exact same word last night. Don't come trying to make me out as anything, I'm just reading what's on both soundhifi and the KAB sites! I'm simply a product of unprofessional postings on BOTH business sites. That's what happens. Get over it. If you cant go talk to them yourself, that is your prerogative.

You can try to twist all this around to suit you. I dont care.

And Marco, not everyone thinks like you. If I choose to not give my name out, it doesn't matter if it's a faceless forum or other public areas. You know, when I go to a store and buy something, I give the clerk my debit card, and sometimes, they will look at it, then start to address me by my first or last name. I know the boss probably suggests this stuff. Probably makes customers feel that extra fuzzy personal stuff. But I dont need that from a clerk. If I want someone to address me by my name, I'll give it. But thinking that just because I dont want to give it out because of this or that reason, is not right. It's just my preference. It's just the way I am. Is that not good enough? It's just me, and you're just you, K? :) If you choose to do what you do with your stuff, I'm not going to say nothin, go right ahead :) Well, OK, just you and a few others can call me Jeff, how's that? :) And that is my name, and dont wear it out. ;)

And I am honest. And I have no relationship with either of these two knuckleheads. (That is said in a joking way, OK?) I am just a lone soldier out here trying to figure out the differences and it has become the longest, annoying, time consuming, process of any audio equipment I've ever been interested in. :confused: :lol: Back to work guys ...

Marco
17-09-2009, 22:13
Hi Jeff ,


And Marco, not everyone thinks like you. If I choose to not give my name out, it doesn't matter if it's a faceless forum or other public areas. You know, when I go to a store and buy something, I give the clerk my debit card, and sometimes, they will look at it, then start to address me by my first or last name. I know the boss probably suggests this stuff. Probably makes customers feel that extra fuzzy personal stuff. But I dont need that from a clerk.


That's fine - you're entitled to do as you wish. However the difference here is that this is an on-line community (just like your local neighbourhood) in real life, although of course we're all music and hi-fi nuts, so on AoS we like to encourage people to be friendly and to get to know each other properly by being on first name terms, just like people would be in real life if they were sharing the same space. We therefore ask our members to be transparent, upfront, and not to hide behind a 'screen name' on a computer.

The fact is, AoS is not a store - *that* is the difference. How can you hope to achieve what I've described above when you don't at least know what someone's first name is?

Do you see where I'm coming from? :)

Anyway, we know you now as Jeff, so that's fine. As for the rest of your post, I'm sorry, but I lost the will to live shortly after the second paragraph...... ;)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
17-09-2009, 22:18
Hi Jeff

Well you call this "crap" but it was you who started it. Then at the end you suggest I'm one of "two knuckleheads" and no, I don't consider this a joke, where is the punch line?

The middle of your post, I have no idea about, repetition and more repetition............

I do understand that you are not willing to take the bet until you know the answer first, shrewd move! And that in fact your company is not interested in the $10 switched mode power supplies even though you showed considerable interest in them, I suspect you have since secured an even better deal?

We are all waiting for you to reply to post 39. Then we can continue. If it is IMHO then let us know the reasoning behind that humble opinion please?

Regards

Dave

Alex_UK
17-09-2009, 22:22
As for the rest of your post, I'm sorry, but I lost the will to live shortly after the second paragraph...... ;)

I wouldn't go quite that far ;) - but as I am not a "stakeholder" in the discussion, I've only been skim reading all of the posts in this thread - I'm certainly not (in any way, shape or form) taking sides, but I appreciate the time it must have taken J to resond with his last post, so thanks for that.

jfine
17-09-2009, 22:31
Hi Jeff ,



That's fine - you're entitled to do as you wish. However the difference here is that this is an on-line community (just like your local neighbourhood) in real life, although of course we're all music and hi-fi nuts, so on AoS we like to encourage people to be friendly and to get to know each other properly by being on first name terms, just like people would be in real life if they were sharing the same space. We therefore ask our members to be transparent, upfront, and not to hide behind a 'screen name' on a computer.

The fact is, AoS is not a store - *that* is the difference. How can you hope to achieve what I've described above when you don't at least know what someone's first name is?

Do you see where I'm coming from? :)

Anyway, we know you now as Jeff, so that's fine. As for the rest of your post, I'm sorry, but I lost the will to live shortly after the second paragraph...... ;)

Marco.

Yea, that's why I ended with you can call me Jeff, because I get the AOS thing, appreciate it :) Sorry I know that was too long, I did that to you before didnt I?

jfine
17-09-2009, 22:39
Hi Jeff

Well you call this "crap" but it was you who started it. Then at the end you suggest I'm one of "two knuckleheads" and no, I don't consider this a joke, where is the punch line?

The middle of your post, I have no idea about, repetition and more repetition............

I do understand that you are not willing to take the bet until you know the answer first, shrewd move! And that in fact your company is not interested in the $10 switched mode power supplies even though you showed considerable interest in them, I suspect you have since secured an even better deal?

We are all waiting for you to reply to post 39. Then we can continue. If it is IMHO then let us know the reasoning behind that humble opinion please?

Regards

Dave

No punch line, sorry I'm not a professional comedian. I'll try harder next time :)

If you wont read what I wrote, then I cannot help you understand anymore. It is clearly laid out, and if it is repetitious for you, maybe a translator?

I do not own a company, and the company I work for would not at all be interested :lol: like I said, I'm not either, anymore, but thanks. Read what I say, K?

I did reply to 39, Read what I say, K? Not going to fall for that again :doh:

The Grand Wazoo
17-09-2009, 22:42
I've been following this thread with idle interest & see no possibility of the latest turn of events reaching a sensible conclusion until the matter of Dave's suspicions are either resolved or put to one side.

As Jeff has described his relationship to the two companies involved, perhaps Dave might like to tell us, & most crucially Jeff, the reason for his assertion that Jeff is in fact the 'KAB knucklehead'?

If Dave is wrong, Jeff can counter his assertion with facts, they'll kiss & make up and we can all carry on as if it never happened.

Alternatively...........

If Dave is right, one would like to think that Jeff/KAB would either behave like an adult & discuss things without the use of deception or bugger off & play his silly games elsewhere.

Sensible course of action?

Marco
17-09-2009, 22:56
Yes, Chris, but the only thing is the chap from KAB is called Kevin, not Jeff :lolsign:

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
17-09-2009, 23:04
Yes, Chris, but the only thing is the chap from KAB is called Kevin, not Jeff

Well between Posts 46 - 50 Dave was calling him John..........is it any wonder I'm confused Marcus?!

Marco
17-09-2009, 23:06
Indeed, Christina!

Marco.

jfine
17-09-2009, 23:13
Well between Posts 46 - 50 Dave was calling him John..........is it any wonder I'm confused Marcus?!

Too funny you too? :lol: :lol: :lol:

The Vinyl Adventure
17-09-2009, 23:23
Good bloody god, how confusing is this thread?!?! I literaly have read it from start to finish and I can honestly say I have no idea what the hell is going on! Urban legend, no... Conspiracy theorys, have been born out of less!! Good luck to anyone who might or might not be responsible for makeing sense ou of all this!! ...

DaveK
18-09-2009, 08:55
I've been following this thread with idle interest & see no possibility of the latest turn of events reaching a sensible conclusion until the matter of Dave's suspicions are either resolved or put to one side.

As Jeff has described his relationship to the two companies involved, perhaps Dave might like to tell us, & most crucially Jeff, the reason for his assertion that Jeff is in fact the 'KAB knucklehead'?

If Dave is wrong, Jeff can counter his assertion with facts, they'll kiss & make up and we can all carry on as if it never happened.

Alternatively...........

If Dave is right, one would like to think that Jeff/KAB would either behave like an adult & discuss things without the use of deception or bugger off & play his silly games elsewhere.

Sensible course of action?

Hi All,
Hopefully I'm not barred from commenting if on topic but, IMHO, this is the first really constructive post on this thread for quite some time. Let's hope the protagonists 'see the light' and get to 'shake hands' over the ether sooner rather than later.
Cheers,

Steve Toy
18-09-2009, 09:48
Indeed. We also need to get to the bottom of Jeff's stance on KAB and what is behind it.

Marco
18-09-2009, 09:57
Perhaps he just feels more loyalty to the manufacturer from his side of the pond? I'm beginning to suspect that there's little more to it than that.

I've exchanged numerous emails with Kevin, which I've just read as a reference, and Jeff has a very different writing style. Also, in my experience, Kevin is generally a man of few words, so for him to have written the 'epistle' Jeff posted last night would've been completely out of character.

Jeff has also spoken with Kevin, but not Dave, so he knows Kevin better. Perhaps Dave could call Jeff (or vice versa) at a mutually agreed time, settle the 'dispute' and their respective concerns that way, hopefully then return here with renewed respect for each other, and we can then put this tittle-tattle to bed? :)

Just a thought!

Marco.

P.S Dave could then speak with Kevin, and if Jeff and Kevin were actually the same person (or not) we'd soon find out! ;)

DaveK
18-09-2009, 10:00
Indeed. We also need to get to the bottom of Jeff's stance on KAB and what is behind it.

I doubt that any more information will (or can?) be forthcoming. Jeff has given his answer to that question and, for whatever reason, I don't see him changing it now, despite any reservations that some of us may have, IMHO.
I am strictly neutral in this, as Dave C has already highlighted I know nothing about SWPS, and am unlikely to be in the market for one in the foreseeable future, so maybe it's best to let sleeping dogs lie.
Just my two penn'orth.
Cheers,

twelvebears
18-09-2009, 10:30
Indeed. We also need to get to the bottom of Jeff's stance on KAB and what is behind it.

From what I've read (and I may have missed bits, work interrupts occasionally), Jeff (James, Jez, Julian or whatever) doesn't really seem to have a stance or angle on KAB. I think that he's just a punter with a 1200 who's trying to work out which os the two is the better option.

I'll be honest, I'd discovered both the KAB and Soundhifi PSU info before I found AOS, and having read both, was probably just as confused as J. At that point, the only (completely irrelevant) things that were swaying my thoughts were:

1. The KAB site looks pretty rubbish (design, layout etc)

2. They're in America and import duty sucks

3. The Timestep unit looks cooler

4. There's a (seemingly to a non-engineer) more detailed explanation of WHY the Timestep could/should be better.

It's only since becoming part of the AOS community and knowing that people on AOS have switched to a Timestep from a KAB unit that it would now be the Timestep which I would and will buy when I've got the cash.

I'm actually hoping that there's some really exciting story behind the Timestep/KAB face-off. A long running blood feud which can only be finally settled with pistols at dawn!

DaveK
18-09-2009, 10:52
From what I've read (and I may have missed bits, work interrupts occasionally), Jeff (James, Jez, Julian or whatever) doesn't really seem to have a stance or angle on KAB. I think that he's just a punter with a 1200 who's trying to work out which os the two is the better option.

I'm actually hoping that there's some really exciting story behind the Timestep/KAB face-off. A long running blood feud which can only be finally settled with pistols at dawn!

Hi Steve,
For what it's worth, this is my opinion also but, having been chided for derailing the topic once already, I hesitated to put it into print. If I'm wrong I'll happily acknowledge the greater awarenes of others.
Cheers,
Dave.

MartinT
18-09-2009, 18:29
Yes - they're usually rather noisy and not generally the best in serious hi-fi applications. Much depends on how they're implemented, though.

Not in Chord power amps. But then, you knew I'd say that :)

MartinT
18-09-2009, 18:45
Perhaps, since challenges are coming thick and fast, I should add that I've owned a Chord power amp for very many years (more than one model) and I'm very familiar with how they sound. I've also heard other power amps with SMPS and they do not all benefit from it (the Linn Klimax coming to mind, which I've tried in my system). However, Chord proves that an amp with SMPS can sound quite superb and therefore there is nothing inherently wrong with its application in hi-fi provided it is properly implemented.

DSJR
18-09-2009, 19:19
I had some experience of the Chord 1200 power amp and the Quad 606 out-performed it, the 1200 sounding grainy and "dead" for ages before "warming up" improved things. having said that, the BBC LS5/8's with Chord were far better apparently than with the "adequate" Quad 405's used previously..

The only other memory of these amps was at a show, driving the Wilson Benesch Bishop speakers - a bigger marriage made in hell would be difficult to imagine, but far more the speakers' fault.....

leo
18-09-2009, 20:32
Performance will vary, some SMPS are worse than others, depends on things like the switching frequency etc.
Most are still noisy on the outputs but theres ways to clean them up starting from a simple cap multiplier to something much more complex

More places are using them now, something capable of driving heavier loads from a tiny lightweight smps is far cheaper and much more compact/lightweight than an equivalent spec linear

Would I use one? depends with what, some of my equipment like say the Sabre based dac is very sensitive to supply noise so would be a definite no no but with some other equipment they work ok especially if some care has been taken with filtering and onboard regulation.
Stans dac sounds great and that uses a smps

Sorry I can't comment regarding using one with a TT
I've seen inside the older KAB psu's, I'd rather not give an opinion on them:)

Hypnotoad
20-09-2009, 02:18
This thread reminds me of a story about a woodcutter.

A man was watching a wood cutter chop down a tree, the man said that's a fine axe you have there. The wood cutter replied yes I have had it for twenty five years and it's only had two new heads and four new handles.

I have a Technics SL 1200 Mk2 and was considering upgrading it with a new power supply, new arm board, new tone arm, new cables, new feet etc. Then I thought the only thing I have left that's original is the motor and the platter.

Then I saw another table for sale for half of new price with an arm that's better than what I would have put on the Technics, the whole thing cost me a lot less than upgrading. I bought a Benz Micro Ace cartridge for it and it sounds superb.

One day I may still upgrade the Technics but at the moment I am more than happy with my new (second hand) table.

The Vinyl Adventure
20-09-2009, 10:58
It more reminds me of my good mmate Ed, he builds raceing cars out of 3 and 5 series bmws, he strips them down, gets rid of all the bits that arnt needed, adds a load of stuff to increase performance and then wins races with them! It's still looks like a BMW, and a lot of the parts are the same, he just knows how to get the best out of them!

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/52193_1189689753.jpg

Hypnotoad
20-09-2009, 14:20
It more reminds me of my good mmate Ed, he builds raceing cars out of 3 and 5 series bmws, he strips them down, gets rid of all the bits that arnt needed, adds a load of stuff to increase performance and then wins races with them! It's still looks like a BMW, and a lot of the parts are the same, he just knows how to get the best out of them!

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/52193_1189689753.jpg

The difference being the Technics is more like a Toyota than a BMW.

Don't get me wrong I think for the price it's a fine table and dollar for dollar it's hard to beat, I would recommend it to anyone in that price range.

Upgrading is something that can be done at your own pace and budget for sure.

But for those who are unhappy with the performance and have to change nearly every little thing, making it nothing like what it started out, they should ask themselves if they should just get another table altogether.

The cost of the table and all the mods with the SME 309 arm comes to over 2100.00 pound.

You could get a pretty decent table for that amount of cash, especially on the slightly used market. A Rega P9/RB1000 comes to mind.

NRG
20-09-2009, 14:42
The difference being the Technics is more like a Toyota than a BMW.

Don't get me wrong I think for the price it's a fine table and dollar for dollar it's hard to beat, I would recommend it to anyone in that price range.

Upgrading is something that can be done at your own pace and budget for sure.

But for those who are unhappy with the performance and have to change nearly every little thing, making it nothing like what it started out, they should ask themselves if they should just get another table altogether.

The cost of the table and all the mods with the SME 309 arm comes to over 2100.00 pound.

You could get a pretty decent table for that amount of cash, especially on the slightly used market. A Rega P9/RB1000 comes to mind.

...but would probably not come anywhere near it in sound quality ;) and certainly not be a factory new direct drive TT....

Hypnotoad
20-09-2009, 15:27
...but would probably not come anywhere near it in sound quality ;) and certainly not be a factory new direct drive TT....


From the Tone Audio Review of a modded SL1200 Mk2 that's posted on Sound HiFi's site. Note that the $2,000 figure comes from fitting it with a second hand SME Tonearm it's a LOT more with a new one.

"Would I give up my Rega P9/RB 1000 or Raven TWO with SME 309 for this table? No, it’s not that good, but it’s so damn good for $2,000, paired up with your favorite $900 car-tridge, that you may not ever need to spend more money on a turntable unless you have a mega system. This truly is a magic combination, being much more than the sum of its parts.The big-bucks tables still offer more resolution at the frequency extremes, with more fine detail throughout, and that’s what you pay the money for."

It's very very good from a so called experts view (see above) it still doesn't measure up to a Rega P9/RB1000 that can be had for the same price if you shop around, not that I am saying go out and buy a Rega, that's just an example.

What I am really saying for all that investment you can get a table as good or better and you don't have to do a thing to it.

I have found in the audio game that you can buy "slightly used" gear, for a huge price reduction. People buy a turntable and then upgrade it a month later to another one, that $2000.00 table quickly becomes a $1500.00 or less table. I bought a $1500.00 table for half price and it's like new.

And you can sell it for around what you paid for it, try doing that with a new or modded table.

I am not trying to offend anyone I just think people should consider every angle before jumping in an spending a lot of money on something, there may be cheaper alternatives.

DSJR
20-09-2009, 15:36
An SME 309 upwards is a bit of a rip-off I think, as tooling costs would have been written off years ago. The M2-9 would make a far more cost-effective proposition for a techie I think and the Sound HiFi site had such a combination pictured IIRC. This is where the jelco arms come in as even with a supplying dealer's profit, they're still relatively "slurp free" compared to other arms, priced at the level the market used to be able to stand....... The Ortofon arms look really good, but do they really justify selling for nearly THREE times the price of a Jelco 750?

Dave Cawley
20-09-2009, 17:34
The Ortofon arms are Jelco's in drag, made in the same factory! I've gone off the M2-9 and like the 309 much better.

Second hand anything will always be better value that anything new, SME 20 included.

If I wasn't who I am, it would be a toss up between an modified SL-1200, Avid Volvere and a SME 20........................

Regards

Dave

Marco
20-09-2009, 17:44
LOL... I'll get back to this thread later - just about to have dinner. P9 indeed!! :eyebrows: ;)

Neal, it was great meeting you again yesterday. We had a superb T/T session I thought at the end of the evening - some truly superb sounds there!

Hope you guys had a good time today :)

Laters,
Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
20-09-2009, 17:54
The difference being the Technics is more like a Toyota than a BMW.

Don't get me wrong I think for the price it's a fine table and dollar for dollar it's hard to beat, I would recommend it to anyone in that price range.

Upgrading is something that can be done at your own pace and budget for sure.

But for those who are unhappy with the performance and have to change nearly every little thing, making it nothing like what it started out, they should ask themselves if they should just get another table altogether.

The cost of the table and all the mods with the SME 309 arm comes to over 2100.00 pound.

You could get a pretty decent table for that amount of cash, especially on the slightly used market. A Rega P9/RB1000 comes to mind.

i belive toyotas have won the wrc a few times!
i personally find the modding process hugly satisfying, having a relativly low cost upgrade path for me is a bonus... and if in the long run i loose out when selling the deck .. well i can tell you one thing for free, i piss a lot more money up the wall on other recreational persuits than this one ... so sod it, im enjoying my self, my record player, and the music it plays.. happy days!!

Hypnotoad
20-09-2009, 20:42
i belive toyotas have won the wrc a few times!
i personally find the modding process hugly satisfying, having a relativly low cost upgrade path for me is a bonus... and if in the long run i loose out when selling the deck .. well i can tell you one thing for free, i piss a lot more money up the wall on other recreational persuits than this one ... so sod it, im enjoying my self, my record player, and the music it plays.. happy days!!

I would love to hear a fully modded Technics but don't have the chance.

I was going to put something like a Jelco 250ST on mine with the upgraded power supply.

Which would have cost me well over $1000.00 not including what it cost for the SL1200 Mk2 in the first place, making it over $1500.00.

Then this other table came up for half that and I jumped on it and have had no regrets.

But would still love to hear someone's Technics with those mods, maybe it would sound twice as good as I paid, you can't tell without an audition.:confused:

MartinT
20-09-2009, 20:55
I had some experience of the Chord 1200 power amp and the Quad 606 out-performed it, the 1200 sounding grainy and "dead" for ages before "warming up" improved things.

I don't know which model that was but I doubt it was a 1200E. Quite frankly, it knocks the 606 into a cocked hat. Oh, and I never turn my power amp off.

jfine
21-09-2009, 15:59
Wow! This thread really went swervy :) I think I'm going to start a new one to pick up where I left off! That's what I get for slacking off on the weekend :smoking:

DSJR
21-09-2009, 16:34
I don't know which model that was but I doubt it was a 1200E. Quite frankly, it knocks the 606 into a cocked hat. Oh, and I never turn my power amp off.

I could be very cheeky and ask WHY you have to keep the thing switched on. is it so unstable (like certain other amps made in the UK) that it only sounds any good when left on 24/7? :eyebrows:

Now, before we start a slanging match, I only said the above to show how "we" can get entrenched in things like opinions. Indeed the 606 needs to be left on for a couple of hours and when it is, it sounds as good as anything else I've heard as long as the speaker is either active, or a sensible load above 4 Ohms. But it's a Quad, and, of course, it's no good for "Top End," is it, unless it's one of the valve jobbies they make?

Your Chord is very expensively finished and very well and solidly made inside and I reckon a good deal of audio snobbery goes into the retail prices they feel they can charge. I'm sure it's an excellent amp nonetheless and obviously you're as thrilled with it as I am with my inherited old "pro" amps and Marco is with his "Copper" amp...

Where does all the above fit in with this thread? Well, if you live in the States, the KAB mods may be the best avenue to pursue first, together with the "Herbie" mat and sorbothane "boots" or Isonoe isolating feet (have no experience of the "Stillpoint" idea with this sort of deck, so I'll leave that suggestion open). If you live in the UK, it would be a great idea to look at SoundHiFi and the Timestep as first choice, as these can easily be supplied and fixed under warranty should this be necessary.

Regarding Jelco arms - for the prices I've seen new examples go for either side of the pond I'd respectfully suggest it's a no-brainer. The cheaper fixed head model (250?) should work fine with the best MM's out there (Ortofon and AT) and also the more "delicate" of the MC's too, like the Denon 304 and AT's. if I'm right about the Jelco 750 having a little damping available at the pivots, then this may work with MM's too, apart from the most delicate ADC's and similar.

I wish I had some free funds for this, as talking about these products with a pragmatic viewpoint isn't the same as actually having these items available to use and work with.


P.S. Another way of explaining how LP12 lovers used to think (still?) from my experience today...

"My Dual 701 has been used with well used Supex 900E and Stilton OC9 with AT630 transformer, yet an Ortofon M20E Super with Spacemat over the supplied one actually sounds better, clearer and far more involving when things get complex. Therefore the MC cartridges are rubbish compared to the Ortofon!"

None of this takes into account that the arm isn't rigid enough to fully accept an MC design, the motor unit hasn't ever been serviced apart from a drop of oil on the bearing tip some years ago and heaven knows how good or bad the arm internal wiring is......

MartinT
21-09-2009, 17:45
I could be very cheeky and ask WHY you have to keep the thing switched on. is it so unstable (like certain other amps made in the UK) that it only sounds any good when left on 24/7?

Because it sounds better warm, and when I get home from work I need an instant fix :)


But it's a Quad, and, of course, it's no good for "Top End," is it, unless it's one of the valve jobbies they make?

I have the greatest respect for Quad speakers and if my appetite were solely for classical music I'd be using them. However, I don't find them good enough for rock so I compromised with (very good) dynamic speakers to get the best of both worlds.


Regarding Jelco arms - for the prices I've seen new examples go for either side of the pond I'd respectfully suggest it's a no-brainer. The cheaper fixed head model (250?) should work fine with the best MM's out there (Ortofon and AT) and also the more "delicate" of the MC's too, like the Denon 304 and AT's. if I'm right about the Jelco 750 having a little damping available at the pivots, then this may work with MM's too, apart from the most delicate ADC's and similar.

I completely agree. As someone who used to own a gorgeous SME IV, I don't feel in any way shortchanged by the Jelco. The proof is in the listening, and it sounds bloody superb with my 33PTG on the Techie.

Magna Audio
22-09-2009, 11:57
I would love to hear a fully modded Technics but don't have the chance.

I was going to put something like a Jelco 250ST on mine with the upgraded power supply.

Which would have cost me well over $1000.00 not including what it cost for the SL1200 Mk2 in the first place, making it over $1500.00.

Then this other table came up for half that and I jumped on it and have had no regrets.

But would still love to hear someone's Technics with those mods, maybe it would sound twice as good as I paid, you can't tell without an audition.:confused:

compare my PL-71 and not fully fully loaded SL-1210 here :)
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=66567&postcount=37

direct link

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=4e5c27740920b3998d78a0e555291609e04e75f6 e8ebb871

Marco
22-09-2009, 12:27
Hi Steve,

I've listened to both again, and the Techie recording sounds much better now with more volume.

However, I still prefer your PL-71 for the same reasons as before. I'd say that it's the more synergistically matched of the two - more 'complete as a whole', if you like, with all its constituent parts pulling successfully in the one direction.

That doesn't necessarily mean though that your PL-71 is intrinsically 'superior'; merely that your Techie (how you've modded it, etc) isn't quite yet as well sorted as the PL-71. There's a difference, so keep working on it! ;)

If I get a chance later I'll post my thoughts on my own Techie vs. Neal's PL-71 from the Owston fest. That was very interesting!

Marco.

P.S I've posted this on the other thread, too.