real music?

[Gordon Steadman]

I spend my early sunday mornings, reading the papers on-line whilst enjoying some fresh croissants and black, very strong, very sweet coffee. My week's highlight.

I also tend to put the headphones on and listen to some music at high level without disturbing Ronnie, who spends her sunday mornings wrapped up in the bedclothes without me to disturb her.

Anyway, I'm sitting here listening to Nina Simone. This is an old cassette recording that has been imported into iTunes. The problems are obvious, a bit of hash, slight wow and a trace or two of distortion. So..... how come....... it sounds more like a real, living person singing to me than most of the wunnerful digital tracks in the collection.

It doesn't matter how often people try and tell me that digital is where it's at, the evidence seems to point the other way. I enjoy it a lot, it is convenient and easy to organise but..... it's that 'but' that always rears its ugly head. I've been listening almost exclusively to records this week and haven't thought about the hi-fi, just bunged another one on the TT. (Apart from the morning discovering that the Quad33 is one of my favourite per-amps:lol:)

When I listen to digital, I tend to become a hi-fi fan rather than music fan and worry about the reproduction etc.

[prestonchipfryer]

Personally I use digital only as a background medium and analogue (vinyl) as my mains listening medium. I think that digital sounds unacceptable as a serious source, after listening to analogue, as it is a series of on/off pulse and our brain find it difficult to assimilate the digital information. Whereas analogue is continuously on as it is being played and our brain finds it much easier to folllow. Does that make sense?

[awkwardbydesign]

Personally I use digital only as a background medium and analogue (vinyl) as my mains listening medium. I think that digital sounds unacceptable as a serious source, after listening to analogue, as it is a series of on/off pulse and our brain find it difficult to assimilate the digital information. Whereas analogue is continuously on as it is being played and our brain finds it much easier to folllow. Does that make sense?
No. :D
I'm not disagreeing that analogue sounds "better"; that's a personal thing, but the sounds coming out of the speakers/headphones are analogue! The "on-off" only applies to the digital stream, so once your DAC has had it's grubby litle paws on that, it IS "continuously on". Whether or not the whole ADC/DAC process is adequate is where the argument rages.

[Gordon Steadman]

No. :D
I'm not disagreeing that analogue sounds "better"; that's a personal thing, but the sounds coming out of the speakers/headphones are analogue! The "on-off" only applies to the digital stream, so once your DAC has had it's grubby litle paws on that, it IS "continuously on". Whether or not the whole ADC/DAC process is adequate is where the argument rages.

This is what I don't understand. I am listening to Nina Simone on the Mac. It's been currupted by digits already but it still sounds better than files that started off digital. Why is this?? Or is it? Is the fact that I know its from a tape making my brain believe it's better?:scratch:

All very peculiar. Back to the main rig and the TT.

[trio leo]

You will never get away from the fact we have analogue ears, my main source is vinyl, but to be be fair I have heard some stunning CD's and many years ago I had a Teac C3 cassette deck and the recordings were indistinguishable from the original IMO.
I've never heard streaming or ripping whatever they are, I'm a dinosaur, but I still enjoy listening.

Enjoy your music :)

cheers Al

[Clive197]

I spend my early sunday mornings, reading the papers on-line whilst enjoying some fresh croissants and black, very strong, very sweet coffee. My week's highlight.

I also tend to put the headphones on and listen to some music at high level without disturbing Ronnie, who spends her sunday mornings wrapped up in the bedclothes without me to disturb her.

Anyway, I'm sitting here listening to Nina Simone. This is an old cassette recording that has been imported into iTunes. The problems are obvious, a bit of hash, slight wow and a trace or two of distortion. So..... how come....... it sounds more like a real, living person singing to me than most of the wunnerful digital tracks in the collection.

It doesn't matter how often people try and tell me that digital is where it's at, the evidence seems to point the other way. I enjoy it a lot, it is convenient and easy to organise but..... it's that 'but' that always rears its ugly head. I've been listening almost exclusively to records this week and haven't thought about the hi-fi, just bunged another one on the TT. (Apart from the morning discovering that the Quad33 is one of my favourite per-amps:lol:)

When I listen to digital, I tend to become a hi-fi fan rather than music fan and worry about the reproduction etc.

I couldn't put it more succinctly myself. The rise in vinyl sales is mainly (but obviously not exclusively) due to younger members of society discovering that digital has its moments but analogue adds the emotion.

Clive

[lurcher]

You will never get away from the fact we have analogue ears

Ironically, we dont.

"The inner ear consists of the cochlea, which is a spiral-shaped, fluid-filled tube. It is divided lengthwise by the organ of Corti, which is the main organ of mechanical to neural transduction. Inside the organ of Corti is the basilar membrane, a structure that vibrates when waves from the middle ear propagate through the cochlear fluid – endolymph. The basilar membrane is tonotopic, so that each frequency has a characteristic place of resonance along it. Characteristic frequencies are high at the basal entrance to the cochlea, and low at the apex. Basilar membrane motion causes depolarization of the hair cells, specialized auditory receptors located within the organ of Corti.[5] While the hair cells do not produce action potentials themselves, they release neurotransmitter at synapses with the fibers of the auditory nerve, which does produce action potentials. In this way, the patterns of oscillations on the basilar membrane are converted to spatiotemporal patterns of firings which transmit information about the sound to the brainstem."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing

[skimminstones]

personally i put it down to people falling in love with what they grow up with. Ive no doubt in 30 yrs forums like these will be filed with people saying the newest medium doesnt sound as good as the digital stuff they grew up with.

The small rise in vinyl sales i personally believe is down to a mixture of people going back to their youth or some younger people buying it as its pretty new to them. I dont see it being a long term thing myself.

[Gordon Steadman]

Real music can be enjoyed on almost anything!!!

I bet these Sony speakers (from a crap class D Sony AV system) have never had a signal like this upem before. I've just changed the mains out socket of the 33 to a modern one (sorry Andre) and am running a little test. Playing some jazz through the tape out socket on the 34 to the 33 and......OK, it might not be the highest of high fidelity but somehow the music still gets through. If I was in a small flat with neighbours a few feet away, I would listen to music on this in spite of (and because of) the fact that they probably cut off at about 200htz:lol:.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/16512982236_f9fe9a6d74_o.jpg

[Firebottle]

Never mind real music - real equipment :stalks:

Great having a play isn't it?

[Gordon Steadman]

Never mind real music - real equipment :stalks:

Great having a play isn't it?

Well, I'm told that life is a serious business. I somehow seem to have misunderstood the message:)

[The Barbarian]

Real music can be enjoyed on almost anything!!!

I bet these Sony speakers (from a crap class D Sony AV system) have never had a signal like this upem before. I've just changed the mains out socket of the 33 to a modern one (sorry Andre) and am running a little test. Playing some jazz through the tape out socket on the 34 to the 33 and......

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/16512982236_f9fe9a6d74_o.jpg

Get that '33' rebuilt & the PSU upgraded you be getting shut of the '34' soon enough. :eyebrows:

[Gordon Steadman]

Get that '33' rebuilt & the PSU upgraded you be getting shut of the '34' soon enough. :eyebrows:

Good grief, don't you think Alan has enough to keep him occupied??:lol:

[walpurgis]

Well, I'm told that life is a serious business. I somehow seem to have misunderstood the message:)

Damn right. Seriousness intrudes far too much for my liking. I'm much too flippant to deal with it. :)

[Marco]

In general, I dislike 'serious' people (particularly those who are old before their time, and act that way), and especially when they're always moody and po-faced, with no sense of fun.... Miserable and depressing bastards!

Life is about (or should be about) having fun, and fulfilling your dreams. That's certainly how I treat it. Glad you're on the same wavelength, Gordon - and yes, vinyl rules!!

At the end of the day, sport a nice smile on your chops, not a scowl :)

Marco.

[The Barbarian]

Nothing worse than a serious Hi-Fi enthusiast.. I get the impression of it with a couple of Members on here.

[Gordon Steadman]

I have quite often wondered what was inside the little Sony boxes that came with the AV system (i was given it as someone I know was clearing cupboards)

So this morning, I took one apart. A bit surprised to see a little tweeter mounted above the main driver. The tweeter dome is about 6mm diameter. There is no crossover so both drivers are wired together. The joint impedence is 4ohms. I have five of these.

Obviously there is no bass whatsoever. However, I do wonder how they would sound with the 8" Celestion units I have upstairs. They are designed to be used with a sub. Maybe two of these in series and a simple crossover.

Only one way to find out!!

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7458/16546097842_eba97109da_o.jpg

[Firebottle]

Sounds like a plan:eyebrows:

The tweeters are probably piezo so don't need any crossover. Good idea to wire two in series to try with the Celestions.

:carrot: Alan

[The Barbarian]

Personally I use digital only as a background medium and analogue (vinyl) as my mains listening medium. I think that digital sounds unacceptable as a serious source, after listening to analogue, as it is a series of on/off pulse and our brain find it difficult to assimilate the digital information. Whereas analogue is continuously on as it is being played and our brain finds it much easier to folllow. Does that make sense?

Im the same, i don't pay attention if it's a CD or File, it's just low level background music. If i do turn it up bordom prods me to switch it off :eyebrows:

Where as Records i could listern all day without any probs, im so desperate to get my man cave finished so i have easy access to playing records, it's a bit hard at the mo with everything upside down. Hundreds of records just stacked up without a proper rack etc. Then i can kiss any CDee or File playback goodbye, I just do not need them.

[paskinn]

Good to see some appreciation of analogue. I too enjoy vinyl far more than anything digital. Digital is excellent...for backround listening. Whether this is just prejudice, or something more, I don't know and don't really care.
It's just a hobby. Like pictures of the 303, I always have at least one of them hanging about. Great amp, and looks straight out of 'Dad's Army'. It's one of those rare components which just sounds 'right'.

[Gordon Steadman]

I was fitting some stair spindles for a customer today (what was that about retirement?) and he asked me if I wanted some big old speakers he had.
Ha!! Is the pope etc.......sadly, his big and mine do not inhabit the same universe.

Some Aiwa boxes made out paper, three way sort of. Anyway, my little project needs some boxes so the butchery started immediately after testing them on the 33/303 and declaring them crap. Really, really crap. A sort of Dundee, "that's not crap...THIS is crap" sort of crap.

They are not quite big enough for the Celestion 8"ers!!! Not unless I cheat a bit so I probably will. Both have the same batch number but the crossovers are different. One has a coil and one just a cap and resistor:scratch:

If I do fit the Celestions, the boxes will need some serious reinforcement. The sides were flapping being driven by the plastic cradled 5" Aiwa driver:eek:

More play tomorrow.

(Got pics in reverse order, too lazy to change them!!!)

[Tom-Brown]

I will listen to music on various formats from radio to spotify!! But it's always got to be vinyl in the end :) :)

[twotone]

I listen to internet radio a lot, specifically FIP (Paris) which is just fantastic and I also play my CDs which were bought on Amazon via itunes and also love the simplicity of that with a genius mix.

Just bought the Bob Dylan Mono boxset which came with a digital download of the entire collection.

The mono vinyl boxset is just wonderful, I love it.

[Gordon Steadman]

:lol:

As these are being developed by the appliance of science in the form of bung it in a box and see what happens.............I didn't try too hard with pretty - or accurate.

So the fronts a lump of old flooring chipboard. There is a white melamine box at the top for the two mid/tweeters and that is as far as it went. The original Aiwas sounded crap as I said but when I took them apart, one of them was wired so that the bass unit got the treble and vici virci. Bit late to see how they would sound done properly but still crap I'm sure.

So, connected to the 33/303 and sat thinking "hmmm....if I listen to these for long, my ears are going to bleed" As there were four of those horrid little piezo thingies blasting away, it seemed likely to be at least one of the reasons. So, I got the wire cutters and just snipped - very scientifically of course - two of the buggers off.

And tried again. Ronnie came in and asked what was playing as it sounded really good. She was somewhat surprised to hear it was these.

So, it looks like I'm going to have to take them apart and make them look as good as they sound. The lower section of the box still rings a bit but that is easy to cure. The top is dodo like because of the mid box. The Celestions haven't moved air for ten years and are already loosening up and the bass is getting better after half an hour.

Quelle surprise!! Accidents do happen then:eyebrows:

[Firebottle]

I just love the adjustment on the fly, snip snip, and leaving the relevant tool in the first photo.

Keep it up :eyebrows: :mental:

[Gordon Steadman]

I just love the adjustment on the fly, snip snip, and leaving the relevant tool in the first photo.

Keep it up :eyebrows: :mental:

Well, I think it's important to apply the scientific method.

[jandl100]

When I listen to digital, I tend to become a hi-fi fan rather than music fan and worry about the reproduction etc.

I kind of find that distinction myself - except it's the file streaming sound that turns me off.
I'm very happy with CD, so it isn't digital as such that's a problem for me.
And my new-born enthusiasm for vinyl continues to grow. It's been my main source for the past little while.

But whenever I hear a streaming system, it seems to have a desperate lack of emotional communication for me. I've never heard a streamer in my own system - and I have no great desire to - but other folks' streamers just seem to me to be so matter of fact and uninteresting. :scratch:

[Gordon Steadman]

I kind of find that distinction myself - except it's the file streaming sound that turns me off.
I'm very happy with CD, so it isn't digital as such.
And my new-born enthusiasm for vinyl continues to grow. It's been my main source for the past little while.

But whenever I hear a streaming system, it seems to have a desperate lack of emotional communication for me. I've never heard a streamer in my own system - and I have no great desire to - but other folks' streamers just seem to me to be so matter of fact and uninteresting. :scratch:

Hi Jerry,

I suspect the emotional connection has something to do with ownership. Certainly is for me, the idea of not having the physical media to hand goes against the grain for this old man. In the same way, I just can't connect with the idea of 'cloud' computing, I need to have my stuff somewhere close at hand and readily available. It's possible that our internet connection might influence that as we have satellite here and it is not the most reliable. Even so, any connection can go down and then where is the music?

Soundwise, I don't really believe there is that much in it but, harping back to my original post, Nina Simone was recorded from vinyl to tape and thence to the Mac - many opportunities for degradation. How come it still felt more like a real person singing to me than normal digital stuff???

As far as streaming locally is concerned, I have an Apple Airport express for streaming from the Mac to the main rig in the next room. The sound is OK but nothing more and I would only use it for background - not that I do that often. As you say, uninvolving. Obviously the quality is controlled by the Airport so I guess I shouldn't expect too much.

I've downloaded quite a bit, both from archives and YouTube. The sound is not terrific but acceptable for most purposes I find. It's still easy to lose interest and flip to something else though and this is what I never seem to do with 'analogue' (and yes I know that most is mastered in the digital domain and has been for some time).

[jandl100]

Well ...
Actually, despite my getting-on-for-old-geezerhood status, I find the concept of cloud-sourced material seriously cool.
I just wish I enjoyed music sourced that way - it sure would be convenient - not to say quicker than waiting for a CD to arrive in the post. :hmm:

Mind you, I do love rummaging in charity shop LP bins! Cardboard box-sourced, rather than cloud-sourced, music. :thumbsup:

[Gordon Steadman]

Whilst my BIL is wrestling with the parallel tracker, I thought I'd have a play with something simple as it's more suited to my mind set.

I've seen this done on the DIY forum but have never trusted uni-pivots as I always feared for the stylus if the arm fell off. However, by making the hole in the tube only just clear the pivot I feel a little more secure!! Its a pen refill (must get a metal one) just resting in a pimple in the arm tube. The tube is just over 32cm (12"+) and I'm undecided if I need a bend on the cart end.

Can't believe how stable this is though. With the weight from an old Garrard SP25, which is nicely underslung, it is incredibly easy to balance and just spins around happily. Just need to sort out some leads and I'll bung it on a deck and see what happens.

I'm beginning to like this retirement stuff:)
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8676/16464472058_aac5a63d16_o.jpg

[Firebottle]

Such simplicity :)
I'd say you definitely need a headshell offset.

[Jimbo]

Personally I use digital only as a background medium and analogue (vinyl) as my mains listening medium. I think that digital sounds unacceptable as a serious source, after listening to analogue, as it is a series of on/off pulse and our brain find it difficult to assimilate the digital information. Whereas analogue is continuously on as it is being played and our brain finds it much easier to folllow. Does that make sense?

Errr -- completely agree with you there John.:)

[Gordon Steadman]

Such simplicity :)
I'd say you definitely need a headshell offset.

'Tis done!!

However, I am unsure about the wire exit. Does anyone know which is best - top or bottom?? The wires will need looping in some way to avoid interfering with the arm movement. I am going to use very lightweight litz leads. The exit will be as close to the pivot point as I can manage of course.

[walpurgis]

Exit the wires on the side nearest the platter just ahead of the pivot and coil them many times, then adjust the 'springyness' of the coils to use them to apply anti-skating force.

[Gordon Steadman]

There you go Alan, just for you, headshell done proper.

Tracks at least. Just waiting for an arm rewire kit as I don't have anything long enough at present. Then we will see how it sounds!!

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8600/16476146439_0dde79fbb8_o.jpg

[struth]

Waow that's a big one[emoji12]

[Gordon Steadman]

Waow that's a big one[emoji12]

Yeah, its is a bit "that's not a tonearm. THIS etc etc"

The effective length is 32cms so only just over 12"

I've added a rest and a lift!!
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8670/16663833735_48eff38bc7_o.jpg

[struth]

Bespoke work of art Gordon

[Gordon Steadman]

Bespoke work of art Gordon

ART:lol:

It will be prettier once I can prove it works (wiring on the way) and then I'll finish the woodwork. I have a suitable piece of worktop left over from the kitchen. The plinth is going to have to be a little larger than those that house the rather more 'normal' sized arms round here.