unhappy with crap sound of my turntable

[surfwagon]

Recently bought a turntable (ebay no 141521101827) spent considerable time setting it all up Ariston RD11s with SME3009/Ortofon M20E super MC cartridge.The preamp I was using is a Naim42.5 with MM phono boards it really didn't sound nice.
I then bought another preamp meridian 506 from (ebay £148) fortunetely it had the correct meridian 506 MC phono boards inside it.
It does sound better,but it still isn't good. If I could tweak my turntable to sound half as good as my CDs I would be delighted.

The best way I can describe the sound is its boomy/basy and sounds bad/distorted if I turn it up loud.
My power amps are meridian 205s speakers sonus fabor concertinos.
Any help much appreciated as if this is as good as vinyl gets It is going on ebay to the higest bidder.

[struth]

Welcome James. nice to have another Scottish vinyl join. Your question should be put into the analogue section where it will receive better attention. The welcome area is where you introduce yourself, and tell us about your system, musical tastes etc.
sure you will receive plenty good advice.

[walpurgis]

Welcome to AOS James.

We should be able to sort out your problems.


Are you sure it's an MC. The M20E was MM if I'm correct.

Is your phono stage MM and used with an SUT? An inadequate SUT can give results like those you describe with an MC.

Also, what 3009 do you have, is it the detachable headshell type? If so you need a heavy and rigid cast headshell to work with MCs.

[struth]

Think it is a moving Iron Geoff

[walpurgis]

James, post a photo showing your arm and cartridge clearly. Maybe that will give us an idea. The Ariston is a good sounding turntable. You can get excellent results with it.

[struth]

He has another thread in analogue now geoff

[surfwagon]

I think my cartridge is MM as the calibration card is printed variable magnetic shunt.
141521101827 this is the ebay no of my RD11s price (negotiated outside ebay) for £350.
My meridian 501 definetely has phono boards 515 definitely moving coil.another recent ebay purchase item no(171648077222)
how lucky to find 2 515 boards inside it for £148 bargain.

[surfwagon]

Dont know what a SUT is

[walpurgis]

Not entirely sure what you're saying, but you definitely can't use phono boards intended for low output MCs with an M20 series Ortofon. The input will overload and distort.

[struth]

Yep it is an old moving iron cart. stylii are near impossible to get. it is very high compliance as well. might be best to acquire a better mm cart to get started with. low budget an at 95e or a little up the tree an ortofon 2m red.

[walpurgis]

Dont know what a SUT is

Step Up Transformer. Bumps up the signal from low output MCs, so they can be used into an MM input.

[surfwagon]

Yep it is an old moving iron cart. stylii are near impossible to get. it is very high compliance as well. might be best to acquire a better mm cart to get started with. low budget an at 95e or a little up the tree an ortofon 2m red.
how about (denon DL-103 0.3mv MC cartridge £126)

[Ali Tait]

Recommend one of these, very good for not a lot-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PUNTINA-ACUTEX-412-STR-PER-GIRADISCHI-INTROVABILE-STYLUS-FOR-TURNTABLE-NUOVA-/251802035889?pt=Attrezzature_per_DJ&hash=item3aa09226b1

[walpurgis]

how about (denon DL-103 0.3mv MC cartridge £126)

A cheaper option might be to use a half decent second hand MM phono stage into a spare 'auxiliary' input and not use the existing MC phono input. Your Ortofon is pretty old and may not be in great shape, so as Grant says a change may be worth it. You should be able to find something to suit the SME.

Can you post a photo so I can see what version of SME 3009 you have.

[walpurgis]

Recommend one of these, very good for not a lot-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PUNTINA-ACUTEX-412-STR-PER-GIRADISCHI-INTROVABILE-STYLUS-FOR-TURNTABLE-NUOVA-/251802035889?pt=Attrezzature_per_DJ&hash=item3aa09226b1

Acutex have a good reputation. Not tried one myself.

[RichB]

Recommend one of these, very good for not a lot-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PUNTINA-ACUTEX-412-STR-PER-GIRADISCHI-INTROVABILE-STYLUS-FOR-TURNTABLE-NUOVA-/251802035889?pt=Attrezzature_per_DJ&hash=item3aa09226b1

Looks similar to Ortofon OM5e Ali, sounds decent aye?

I didn't get on with the ortofon which is why I ask.

[surfwagon]

James, post a photo showing your arm and cartridge clearly. Maybe that will give us an idea. The Ariston is a good sounding turntable. You can get excellent results with it.

M20Esuper

[walpurgis]

Dud link James.

[surfwagon]

Also check my ebay item no (141521101827) for more pictures of myRD11s and tonearm.

[walpurgis]

That's the fixed headshell version SME. It's quite a low mass arm and only suited to what are described as highish compliance cartridges (usually MMs). You would not want to use the average MC in it. It would sound thin and bright.

This would suit the arm and probably not cost a fortune: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Shure-M75ED-Type-2-Cartridge-Boxed-With-Genuine-Shure-ED-T2-Stylus-/191510915076?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c96f0a804

Quite a pleasant sounding cartridge the M75 series Shures (I prefer them to the M series Ortofons). The seller has a good reputation.

[surfwagon]

Are the not a bit cheap and I don't think the puntina will be compatable with my meridian 515 phono boards.

[surfwagon]

my meridian 501 has 515 phono boards so surely a mm cart will be no good.

[walpurgis]

my meridian 501 has 515 phono boards so surely a mm cart will be no good.

I'm not familiar with Meridian phono boards, but having done a quick Google, it seems the 515s are MC (presumably low output). So, you have two options, get a low output MC (which won't work properly in the SME) and use the existing input, or buy an MM to suit your arm and get an MM phono stage to match and use it in an AUX input.

Don't be put off by the seemingly 'lowly' status of the Shure. It'll work fine and sound decent. I had one in the same SME arm myself and it was a good combination.

One of these would sort your MM phono input needs: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAMBRIDGE-AUDIO-AZUR-551P-Black-MM-Phono-Stage-/261767601472?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3cf2909d40

I've used the Cambridge units and they are a bargain. Of course you can spend more, but you'd be surprised how competent these are.

[surfwagon]

Thanks for all the help.My decision now is to buy a new MM cartridge and try it with my naim 42.5 which has MM boards inside it.
I intend to sell my meridian 515 MC phono boards and find and buy a set of meridian 516 MM boards or I might just buy a cambridge phono stage.
Will post some photo of my gear soon buy for now Jim.

[surfwagon]

Just bought the puntina cartridge thanks for the advice Jim.

[surfwagon]

just need meridian 516 MM boards

[Ali Tait]

Looks similar to Ortofon OM5e Ali, sounds decent aye?

I didn't get on with the ortofon which is why I ask.

Not aware of any connection Rich, don't know for sure though.

[Spectral Morn]

Welcome to AOS

What is the turntable sitting on, is it 100% level ? What you are describing sounds a bit like acoustical feedback. Not saying cart to phonostage incompatibility isn't an issue. Also if the cart came with the TT it might be knackered.

Photos of your system and set up and please not a thumbnail will help with trying to sort this out.


Regards Neil

[The Barbarian]

Geoff: it's a '3009, S2 Improved' {Fixed headshell version}
James: you need a good high compliance cart cos it's a low mass arm of around 9g

[walpurgis]

Geoff it's a '3009, S2 Improved' {Fixed headshell version}

Yeah. Sussed that when I saw the picture. Only suitable for higher compliance cartridges really. Nice arm though and a good combination with the Ariston. Bung a good ADC in and you're away! :)

[surfwagon]

Hi Neil check out the ebay pictures item no 141521101827.I actually paid £350 (done deal outside ebay avoiding fees naughty).
I think it was a good buy so I don't mind spending some money on it. Jim

[surfwagon]

Sorry don't know what an ADC is.
In 1980 when my sisters bought hifi seperets all akia and hitachi speakers,non of us thought about things like mm/mc cartridges phono stages.we just connected it all up and it sounded good.
Still trying to get my head around high end turntables.
all this advice is much appreciated Jim.

[walpurgis]

Have you got access to a microscope? It may be an idea to examine the stylus diamond tip if you can.

It should look something like this:

http://i62.tinypic.com/4in0ip.jpg

There are 'flats' front and back, but the sides should be rounded and smooth and the conical profile front on should be distinct. Any sign of wear (flats appearing on the sides) and the stylus is dead. It could even be chipped.

[walpurgis]

Sorry don't know what an ADC is.

An ADC is a non MC, magnetic (induced magnet) cartridge. The company, Audio Dynamics Corporation (ADC), has been defunct for many years. But the cartridges they made were excellent. I have a collection of them. So do a few other AOS members.

They're perfect for use in the SME, but there aren't many good ones left, although our Nathan (nuff) is selling one, with a spare stylus at a very reasonable price. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?36537-Swap-ADC-XLM-MKIII&p=621037#post621037

[The Barbarian]

Yeah. Sussed that when I saw the picture. Only suitable for higher compliance cartridges really. Nice arm though and a good combination with the Ariston. Bung a good ADC in and you're away! :)

Well the 3009,S2 Improved would have been their new arm when that version of the 'RD11' came out so pretty much state of the art back then.

[surfwagon]

Decided to connect my old naim 42.5 pre amp which has the correct phono boards.
I also played my clean LPs (carefully washed rinsed under kitchen sink).
It sounded superb.
I must remind myself (CRAP IN CRAP OUT).
Still waiting on my new cartridge and I am planning on buying a external MM phono stage so I can use my Meridian 501.
Big Thanks for all the tips and advice Jim.

[walpurgis]

I also played my clean LPs (carefully washed rinsed under kitchen sink).

I do hope that's a joke?

[shane]

At the risk of teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, I'll clarify what the problem was, as no-one seems to have explained it in detail, and it doesn't sound as though you're familiar with the world of vinyl yet.

Most hifi sources these days, such as CD players, tuners, streaming devices etc put out a signal of about 1 Volt, which is fed into the amplifier, which boosts it up to drive your speakers. Turntables are a bit different. Cartridges like the Ortofon you bought, the ADCs, the Shures and the Acutex are variations of the moving magnet type which puts out a signal of about 1 millivolt, a thousand times smaller than other sources. In the old days, amplifiers had a dedicated input for phono which switched in an extra amplification stage, but the majority of amps these days don't do this so younhave to have an external phono pre-amp.

Moving coil cartridges like the Denon and the more exotic stuff put out a signal at a few microvolts, so about a thousand times less than the moving magnet types. This means that you either need yet another stage of amplification, or you can use a step-up transformer.

Ifbyou were using your Ortofon into a MC input, that would result in gross overloading, giving pretty much the sound you described.

All irrelevant now you've bought the Acutex, its a brilliant cartridge, ideal for the SME, and able to hold its head up with anything on the market today up to about £250.

Enjoy...

[Gordon Steadman]

I do hope that's a joke?

Why is that then??:)

Nothing wrong with a splash of Fairy Liquid and a rinse - worked wonders for my 78s.

[walpurgis]

Why is that then??:)

Nothing wrong with a splash of Fairy Liquid and a rinse - worked wonders for my 78s.

Did you use a Brillo pad to finish off with Gordon? ;)

[struth]

Why is that then??:)

Nothing wrong with a splash of Fairy Liquid and a rinse - worked wonders for my 78s.

pheasant :eyebrows:

[Gordon Steadman]

Did you use a Brillo pad to finish off with Gordon? ;)

Nope, they are too expensive. Wire wool and Fairy works just as well.

[Gordon Steadman]

pheasant :eyebrows:

Plucker:eyebrows:

[Gordon Steadman]

In all seriousness:lol:.....

A couple of times, as I had to get some recording done in a hurry, I have cleaned LPs in the sink. Good scrub with a fine brush, rinse off and dry on a towel and, in all honesty, the LPs were shiny and clean and played silently afterwards. OK, it's not something I would do on a regular basis but it is probably better than nothing - just.

A word of caution though....don't rinse in very hot water:lol:..one of them did a vase impression. Fortunately, the record was still soft so I banged it on the towel atop of the worktop and pressed. Came out dead flat and played perfectly.

You lot are far too serious about bits of vinyl:doh:

[Barry]

In all seriousness:lol:.....

A couple of times, as I had to get some recording done in a hurry, I have cleaned LPs in the sink. Good scrub with a fine brush, rinse off and dry on a towel and, in all honesty, the LPs were shiny and clean and played silently afterwards. OK, it's not something I would do on a regular basis but it is probably better than nothing - just.

A word of caution though....don't rinse in very hot water:lol:..one of them did a vase impression. Fortunately, the record was still soft so I banged it on the towel atop of the worktop and pressed. Came out dead flat and played perfectly.

You lot are far too serious about bits of vinyl:doh:

Well at least you didn't put them in a dishwasher!

[surfwagon]

Really enjoying listening to my vinyls.
Whats the best way of cleaning my LPs.

I think its best to give the dishwasher a miss as I only have tesco value tabs.

[surfwagon]

Well at least you didn't put them in a dishwasher! because I have run out of power ball 3 in 1

[shane]

If you've really been bitten by the bug then it'll be worth getting a proper record cleaning machine. It'll set you back three or four hundred pounds, but it does make a difference. If you're a bit handy, there's plenty of DIY designs on the internet which look pretty effective. If you don't want to go that far (and I seem to have srvived the last sixty years without one), then you can sort out most problems with one of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DISCWASHER-RECORD-CLEANER-VINYL-CARE-SYSTEM-NEW-FACTORY-PACKED-WORKS-GREAT-/351303876429?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51cb57bf4d . They don't get much coverage here, but it's by far the most effective hand-held cleaner I've found so far, and for some reason they're ridiculously cheap on EBay at the moment. I bought mine in 1976 and it's still going strong!

[Ali Tait]

No need to spend that much on an RCM, try one of these-

http://maquinaphk.xpg.uol.com.br/models.html

Doesn't look much, but does just as good a job as machines costing a lot more.

[Gordon Steadman]

If you've really been bitten by the bug then it'll be worth getting a proper record cleaning machine. It'll set you back three or four hundred pounds, but it does make a difference. If you're a bit handy, there's plenty of DIY designs on the internet which look pretty effective. If you don't want to go that far (and I seem to have srvived the last sixty years without one), then you can sort out most problems with one of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DISCWASHER-RECORD-CLEANER-VINYL-CARE-SYSTEM-NEW-FACTORY-PACKED-WORKS-GREAT-/351303876429?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51cb57bf4d . They don't get much coverage here, but it's by far the most effective hand-held cleaner I've found so far, and for some reason they're ridiculously cheap on EBay at the moment. I bought mine in 1976 and it's still going strong!

Hmm........

brush to work the Liquid into the grooves ✓✓
Liquid to brush into grooves ✓✓
Towel to dry it all off ✓✓

Just need the warm tap to rinse off the gunge and it's just like my method:lol:

[shane]

Sort of....

The thing about the discwasher is that the pad is curved in profile with the fibres all pointing in one direction. If you riun a bead of fluid along it's front edge, then slowly apply it to a rotating lp whilst slowly rotating the brush, it does all three of those operations in one go, whilst lifting the crap out of the grooves leaving the disc clean and dry. It's much easier than my description makes it sound, and unlike any other brush I've met it doesn't just sweep all the crap into a line and leave it there, it actually picks it all up. Doddle to use...

[NRG]

Anything that proclaims 'Works Great!' in the description sets of the alarm bells LOL! IME these 'cost effective solutions' are worse than not cleaning at all. Use a good carbon record brush like the Hunt EDA and keep the stylus clean. If you're going to wet clean do it right and get a decent RCM IMHO.

[struth]

just happens i put a new album on there and at start of side 2 it kept jumping back a couple of grooves at same spot on record. under magnification i could see no reason for it. i just put it on the rcm and gave it a good clean... now it is fine... odd that! but shows the value of a good sucking out of old gundge:eyebrows:

[Barry]

No need to spend that much on an RCM, try one of these-

http://maquinaphk.xpg.uol.com.br/models.html

Doesn't look much, but does just as good a job as machines costing a lot more.

Or build your own: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29230-A-DIY-RCM

[shane]

Anything that proclaims 'Works Great!' in the description sets of the alarm bells LOL! IME these 'cost effective solutions' are worse than not cleaning at all. Use a good carbon record brush like the Hunt EDA and keep the stylus clean. If you're going to wet clean do it right and get a decent RCM IMHO.

Yup, can't avoid the fact that it's made in good old Eeemurica, and that our transatlantic cousins' grasp of English leaves a lot to be desired. However, that doesn't stop the Discwasher being the best hand-held record cleaning device I've come across in the last forty years, carbon brushes notwithstanding.

[surfwagon]

New Cartridge arrived today acutex 412 STR.
As it now sounds good with the Ortofon M20E super.
should I fit the new cart? or (if it aint broken don't fix it)

[walpurgis]

New Cartridge arrived today acutex 412 STR.
As it now sounds good with the Ortofon M20E super.
should I fit the new cart? or (if it aint broken don't fix it)

Yes, fit the Acutex. I tended to find the sound of M series Ortofons being not the most full bodied around. I reckon the new cartridge will give you a big surprise. Make sure your mounting bolts are long enough to fit the Acutex first, otherwise you'll take the M20 off and be stuck.

[Gordon Steadman]

New Cartridge arrived today acutex 412 STR.
As it now sounds good with the Ortofon M20E super.
should I fit the new cart? or (if it aint broken don't fix it)

I would say yes. You know that the stylus is new. I have heard the Acutex's younger brother and it is excellent.

[walpurgis]

Have you changed it James?

[surfwagon]

Fitted the new cartridge last night. I didn't know vinyls could sound this good.My teenage son was even even impressed.Up until the last couple of weeks it was 1987 when I last listened to vinyls.
I am looking forward to my next upgrade thinking of the Angle Audio Audiophile MM phono stage as I will then be able to use my Meridian 501.

[walpurgis]

I bet the balance of sound has changed rather a lot in comparison to the Ortofon.

There is, or was an Angle Audio phono stage on sale here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?36942-Angle-Audio-MM-quot-virtual-battery-quot-phono-stage

[surfwagon]

Not sure about a phono stage with internal batteries. I have had bad bad experience with battery leakage.