WAF Factor (again) [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

Marco

20-08-2009, 15:03

For me, when one member of the partnership (married or not, man or woman) starts to dictate what the other is 'not allowed' to have in their home (hi-fi related or not) - a home which is paid for and maintained by the joint incomes of both partners, then that relationship is not one of mutual respect for each other as equals, but more akin to that between parent and child...

As I kid, I was told what I was allowed and not allowed to have by my parents, just like anyone else - this is normal. However, I would never allow this to perpetrate into my married life as an adult! It's just plain wrong and IMO, abnormal. Decisions as to what personal items furnish the home (not just where the hi-fi goes and what it consists of) should be made jointly where the desires of both parties are considered and taken into account, with no-one being 'the boss' - end of. It's your lounge just as much as hers!

Quite simply, there are too many hen-pecked wimpy men in this country who'll do anything for a 'quiet life' and they need to grow some bloody cohonas!! :lol: :ner:

On the other point, yes I do think that 'WAF' has had a detrimental effect on quality 2-channel hi-fi, mainly because so many women won't 'let' (there's that dictatorial approach again) their husbands/partners have decent-sized speakers and/or allow the system as a whole to be set-up properly - by which I mean prioritising the sound of the system, rather than the aesthetics of the room. Ideally, however, both should 'work together' to achieve a common, mutually acceptable, goal.

Often the only 'compromise' that's reached (by 'her') is the use of some God-awful mini system from the local supermarket or a decent separates system whose performance is so hampered by inappropriate placement (particularly speakers - sorry, Dave! ;)) that you'd be as well not having it in the first place!!

Marco (happily married to the same lovely woman for 18 years and owner of a huge 'f*ck off' hi-fi system - proof that the two can harmoniously co-exist).

Steve Toy

20-08-2009, 15:21

I did make the point that, to enjoy our music at it's best, the listener must relegate ALL other consideratios to a secondary role.

This is actually untrue. All other considerations need not come into conflict with the hi-fi but purely aesthetic ones are being allowed to by possibly weak men in the face of superficial women.

It's about making compromises and joint decisions. Clearly this is not happening; one individual is exercising power over the other on the flimsiest of pretexts and for possibly dubious motives...

Scouring through our Gallery you will see true compromise in action if you look, where systems are incredibly well set up to work to their fullest potential and yet complement the overall elegance of the room in which they are situated. The system and the room are allowed to work together both visually and in terms of functionality.

Spectral Morn

20-08-2009, 15:39

I am truly blessed in that my wife does not normally mind in the slightest what I have or don't have, or how it is set up. I have two rooms in use and by osmosis another set up in the master bedroom.

However I have had to power the middle room down except when writing reviews and seek a less power hungry (Electricity) set up for the living room. So to that end I have been using an integrated rather than pre-power combo. I suppose I will just have to look at it that I have an upgrade sitting waiting to be used when I am back in work and paying my way fully again.

However when money is short and rightly so, during my current crap circumstances :steam:(thanks a lot David), she has been less tolerant of what I have perhaps foolishly been doing...limited money and all :( So I have had to wind myself down/back a lot....

Regards D S D L

Marco

20-08-2009, 15:54

I am truly blessed in that my wife does not normally mind in the slightest what I have or don't have, or how it is set up...

Me too, Neil. Perhaps others should be more fussy of who they marry in the first place... :eyebrows:

Harsh but true!

The word 'compatibility' should be considered more carefully, I feel, by the relevant budding happily married couples ;)

How can you be truly compatible if you don't share the same interests/values in life? Certainly you aren't if one of you is willing to run roughshod over the other, showing complete disrespect for that person, just to get what they want!

You see, going back to hi-fi, the problem I have is with guys who, on one hand, portray the image of being perfectly happy with their arrangement at home, but who on the other, come onto various hi-fi forums and moan like buggery about how 'the wife' won't 'let' them have this or that for their system... :mental:

If they're that unhappy about the situation then they should be honest and say so, preferably by telling their wife and doing something about it!!

Or forever let her walk all over you, and use you to improve her 'status' in life...

Marco.

Spectral Morn

20-08-2009, 16:08

Me too, Neil. Perhaps others should be more fussy of who they marry in the first place... :eyebrows:

Harsh but true!

The word 'compatibility' should be considered more carefully, I feel, by the relevant budding happily married couples ;)

How can you be truly compatible if you don't share the same interests/values in life? Certainly you aren't if one of you is willing to run roughshod over the other, showing complete disrespect for that person, just to get what they want!

You see, going back to hi-fi, the problem I have is with guys who, on one hand, portray the image of being perfectly happy with their arrangement at home, but who on the other, come onto various hi-fi forums and moan like buggery about how 'the wife' won't 'let' them have this or that for their system... :mental:

If they're that unhappy about the situation then they should be honest and say so, preferably by telling their wife and doing something about it!!

Or forever let her walk all over you, and use you to improve her 'status' in life......

Marco.

I suspect that its only in very rare circumstances that two can truly become one on every issue, but for the most part we are. I explained everything to my wife to be, so she had a really good idea of what and who she was marrying. She does sometimes joke about me taking over the house and to be fair thats true. She had just bought the house when we met so I moved into her house when we got married, so that wasn't a joint decision. However I must be honest and say I can be selfish sometimes and recently that has got me into a spot of trouble.

Interestingly we both have and manage our own finances, no joint bank account. There is a pot (not literally) for the money needed for the bills etc which we pay(I did until I lost my job)equally. Most people think the idea of a married couple having separate accounts wierd or even down right wrong, but it works for us.

Regards D S D L

DSJR

20-08-2009, 16:34

I wonder how many of you guys have children? I despaired after the third time our then young son pushed the ATC tweeter domes in (rather than shouting, this occasion I hid my head in my hands and almost wept - he hasn't been near the stereo since.....).

When we moved, our small sitting room dictated that the HiFi went in the dining room. It sounded awful and stayed there with main listening on headphones. More recently, our rapidly growing ten year old was given the dining room, which we rarely use, for his Lego, old TV/vid/DVD etc and I was graciously allowed to put the Spendors in the sitting room. I think they're too imposing (and they're under half the size of the SP100's Marco had) yet I've not had a peep of complaint from herself. In fact, she seems pleased by the amount the setup's being used currently and the sound is so much better I'm delighted too. The only difficulty is that the TV has to be in between the speakers.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/BC2sinsitu.jpg

I've been able to increase the distance between each speaker, but the TV is still 16" away from each one.

Spectral Morn

20-08-2009, 16:42

No Dave, no children. We used to review our feelings about having children every 5 years or so. Did we still feel the same etc...and yes our feelings hadn't changed. If I am honest though when my Mum died 3 years ago it did make me question my decisions about this, but deep down my wife and I are to set in our ways now and perhaps to selfish to change.

When people bring young children to the house I clear everything that could be damaged out of the way upstairs...better safe than sorry.

Regards D S D L

Beechwoods

20-08-2009, 17:05

I couldn't live without my kit and a room for it all. I have two kids. The oldest is nearly 4 and the youngest is 2. My room, which is a loft conversion is the only room in the house that isn't childproof and it's also the only room they aren't allowed into :) A man has to have his place of refuge :)

I'm not looking forward to the day when I have to give up my room as the kids outgrow theirs. I'll go from the second biggest in the house to the smallest! I figure floor to ceiling gear would be needed to get it all in there... but that'll be at least 6 or 7 years away by which time they might be trusted not to break a system in the main room :)

Jonboy

20-08-2009, 17:58

For me, when one member of the partnership (married or not, man or woman) starts to dictate what the other is 'not allowed' to have in their home (hi-fi related or not) - a home which is paid for and maintained by the joint incomes of both partners, then that relationship is not one of mutual respect for each other as equals, but more akin to that between parent and child...

I would like to agree with you on this one(hope shes not looking over my shoulder)

On the other point, yes I do think that 'WAF' has had a detrimental effect on quality 2-channel hi-fi, mainly because so many women won't 'let' (there's that dictatorial approach again) their husbands/partners have decent-sized speakers and/or allow the system as a whole to be set-up properly - by which I mean prioritising the sound of the system, rather than the aesthetics of the room. Ideally, however, both should 'work together' to achieve a common, mutually acceptable, goal.

This is what we would all like to achieve in an ideal world

Often the only 'compromise' that's reached (by 'her') is the use of some God-awful mini system from the local supermarket or a decent separates system whose performance is so hampered by inappropriate placement (particularly speakers - sorry, Dave! ;)) that you'd be as well not having it in the first place!!

A Bose has been mentioned when it all gets a bit out of hand once in a while ie various amps and speakers dotted around the house

Marco (happily married to the same lovely woman for 18 years and owner of a huge 'f*ck off' hi-fi system - proof that the two can harmoniously co-exist).

I too have been happily married to the same lovely woman for 18 years and have four kids and i too have had to put up with speakers blue tacked onto the same stand next to the telly, amps, cd player and av stuff all shearing the same unit because thats the way it had to be at that time, but the kids are older no more fingers poking at what they shouldn't, aquiring sticky finger prints and toast posted into video recorders, solid state it had to be, those were the days, i now have got back the Hifi bug and have been chopping and changing the last few years with more or less what i want within my or should that be our budget including ESL63's in the lounge (although the stacked 57's did and still cause some ear bending)
We now have a compromise in that we are lucky enough to have an office at the bottom of the garden where all the ugly and silly stuff gets set up (we both work in it though) and the nice looking amps and speakers are left indoors, a problem shared is a problem mostly solved me thinks or should we all be saying we thinks now in our time of equility :lol:

Perhaps one day Marco all of us will be fortuanate enough to have a partner or wife thats so obviously devoted to you and your Hifi, you lucky bastard:ner::ner::ner:

Mike

20-08-2009, 18:23

I have to laugh at this sort of stuff. :lol:

I wonder if writing about it here is going to change anything... :lolsign:

REM

20-08-2009, 18:27

Transactional Analysis, the parent/adult/child in us all or even I'm OK, Your OK, the holistic/humanist philosophers, Rodgers, Maslow, Egan et al, Self Actualisation, On Becoming a Person....

Might sound like pretentious psychobabble but a little reading can help to understand what we term the modern condition or dilemma. Once the other half sees you attempting to attain greater self understanding/awareness and so increase your ability to adequately explain your needs then she will be all the more willing to entertain your next indulgence. A little judiciously applied psychology can work bloody miracles;)

Cheers

DSJR

20-08-2009, 18:43

A little judiciously applied psychology can work bloody miracles;)

Cheers

Not in my bl**dy house it doesn't!!!!! :D

Alexxus

20-08-2009, 18:52

I wonder if writing about it here is going to change anything... :lolsign:
'Course not, but that goes for a lot of stuff being discussed on fora, innit?

Truth is, if you don't get along with the missus in what concerns hi-fi, a bit of banter on a forum won't solve the problem, but having a moan sometimes makes people feel better, nothing wrong with that, is it?

Far as I'm concerned, if I don't get silly with things (which I don't, mainly because I like to think of myself as a considerate person so I don't take into account my wishes only) there's absolutely no problem. She doesn't want to know what I'm spending on hi-fi, which suits me just fine, but then again I'm not leaving the bills unpaid to get myself the latest cryo mains plug.

It's all about balance, methinks. But you can't have balance if you're not prepared to think about the person next to you. You can't destroy the look of the living room with some fugly equipment (and I have seen some pig ugly stuff out there) just because there's some elusive degree of improvement to your audition and not care about anything else than your satisfaction with that extra increment of joy it brings you.

As has been said, there are solutions. There's so much good stuff out there you don't absolutely have to pick the shittiest looking of them all just to show who's wearing the trousers, I don't think. Now, if your other half turns her nose up at the simple mention of any thing hi-fi, that's different, but if you only discovered that now, then you've got a potentially bigger problem on your hands than just the home improvement and design...

DaveK

20-08-2009, 19:01

Hi Guys,
I guess that I must be crazy mixing it with TWO members of Admin. but here goes - bugger the risk - let's live dangerously. I perhaps should state at this point, so as to remove any doubt, my posting is NOT a 'wind up, they are sincerely held views.
I have no idea what Steve hopes to achieve by raising this subject (again) so soon after it was raised earlier, or Marco with his provocative reference to 'cohonas'. The most favourable interpretation than I can put on this thread is that it is a wind up - if not, it is, IMHO, the biggest load of 'cohonas' it has been my displeasure to read on this forum.
For the purposes of this debate let's leave hi-fi and gender out of it - we are after all talking about principle here, compromise within a partnership, any compromise within any partnership.
I'll try to take the points raised in chronological order if I may:

... men (it's a predominantly male hobby) just allow their partners to rule the roost and dictate to them what goes in the living room and where.
No 'dictation' is involved, if a compromise cannot be reached - be honest guys, it sometimes happens - then the status quo prevails, or as near to it as is acceptable to both parties.

For me, when one member of the partnership (married or not, man or woman) starts to dictate what the other is 'not allowed' to have in their home (hi-fi related or not) - a home which is paid for and maintained by the joint incomes of both partners, then that relationship is not one of mutual respect for each other as equals, but more akin to that between parent and child...
Nice one Marco! This is very easy to say when you have the werewithall to have a dedicated listening room, but Steve's original posting specifically referred to "what goes in the living room and where" - most of us are not so fortunate. In my home I have what I call my office but what my wife calls my kennel (it's far too small to be converted to a listening room). In here I control absolutely what is in there and Sue tolerates it. It's been like that since I first set it up many years ago when I worked largely from home. This is very different from a living room but analogous to your listening room.

Quite simply, there are too many hen-pecked wimpy men in this country who'll do anything for a 'quiet life' and they need to grow some bloody cohonas!! Cohonas is about the only word worth repeating in this statement, IMHO.

Marco (happily married to the same lovely woman for 18 years and owner of a huge 'f*ck off' hi-fi system - proof that the two can harmoniously co-exist). Irrelevant - see my comments above re living rooms and listening rooms.

I did make the point that, to enjoy our music at it's best, the listener must relegate ALL other consideratios to a secondary role.

This is actually untrue. All other considerations need not come into conflict with the hi-fi but purely aesthetic ones are being allowed to by possibly weak men in the face of superficial women.
Oh no it's not untrue! Not all partners see the aesthetics of hi-fi gear in the same favourable light as their partners. Even some 'dyed in the wool' audiophiles would not give house room to some speaker stands that look as if they were left over from the construction of an oil rig, no matter how effective they were, and there are loads of opposing views expressed on this forum about the aesthetics of various bits of kit - beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it's nothing to do with one partner being weak and/or the other one being superficial - I'm tempted to follow that with "How dare you suggest such a thing!!"

.... one individual is exercising power over the other on the flimsiest of pretexts and for possibly dubious motives... And on what evidence do you base that outrageous statement, particularly the last phrase?

I have two rooms in use and by osmosis another set up in the master bedroom. Lucky you ! We should all be so fortunate but it's irrelevant - I remind you that we are discussing furniture and hi-fi gear placement in a living room!!

Perhaps others should be more fussy of who they marry in the first place...

Harsh but true! No, harsh and bullshit, or cohonas, if you prefer it

The word 'compatibility' should be considered more carefully, I feel, by the relevant budding happily married couples and I assume your day job is with Relate (Marriage Guidance) after making that statement. And what about those who succumbed to the charms of hi-fi after they succumbed to the charms of their partner - should they get a divorce purely on the strength of that fact?

How can you be truly compatible if you don't share the same interests/values in life? Compatibility in everything except audiophilia is then not a basis for a successful marriage I take it in your opinion Certainly you aren't if one of you is willing to run roughshod over the other, showing complete disrespect for that person, just to get what they want! Failure to agree in no way implies "riding roughshod" or "complete disrespect" in either partner. Where do you get your weird ideas from?

Or forever let her walk all over you, and use you to improve her 'status' in life... I think that this remark speaks volumes about you and very little about partnership.
Now my general view about the two main protagonists in this thread, Steve and Marco. You two have done a good job by advising others on how to build a good hi-fi set up but please do not try to impose your personal views on partnership compromise and what a good partnership is on us. A compromise is not a compromise if any one partner gets everything they want from the agreement and the other gets nothing, unless other bargaining chips are brought to the table ;) . If it acts like a bully, posts like a bully and walks like a bully...... If the cap fits guys, wear it.
The above post, as you might imagine, has taken some time to put together. Because of this it only responds to posts up to and including no.7. Anything posted after that I will respond to, if I feel the need, later.

Marco

20-08-2009, 19:09

Perhaps one day Marco all of us will be fortuanate enough to have a partner or wife thats so obviously devoted to you and your Hifi, you lucky bastard :ner::ner::ner:

LOL! :eyebrows:

Jon,

I *am* a lucky bastard, but IMO, there should be many more "lucky bastards" out there enjoying the same type of relationship we have in our marriage, instead of folk having to suffer all this WAF nonsense... I just couldn't imagine things being any other way.

It really boils down to quite simply the two people in a relationship treating each other as equals, showing mutual respect for one another, and sharing the same interests and values in life. For me, it's simple common sense, as neither Del nor I would have married each other had that not been the case! :)

There seems to be an awful lot of unhappy people out there, muddling through relationships, bottling things up for the sake of 'peace and quiet' - and for what? Life is for living and feeling happy and fulfilled with your 'lot'. If that wasn't the case with me (or Del) we'd do something about it - and PDQ. Life's too short to be unhappy...

Whoever coined the phrase 'she who must be obeyed' should be shot!

Marco.

Marco

20-08-2009, 19:22

Hi Dave,

Unfortuntely I don't have the time to dissect your lengthy post and reply in detail to all the points made, even though there are many inaccuracies therein that could be exposed.

All Steve and I (and others) are doing is offering our opinion based on our experience. I'm not "imposing" my views on anyone - merely chatting about a subject I'm passionate about. What's wrong with that? This is a forum for discussing things, after all :)

I can assure you that everything I have written, and the views I've expressed, are based on observing the behaviour of either people I know personally, or the behaviour of some people on hi-fi forums. As you say, they are "my sincerely held views".

Pick whatever forum you like and read the main hi-fi section... If you don't find at least one guy moaning that his wife won't 'let' him have this or that for his hi-fi system then you're either blind or you simply don't want to acknowledge the obvious...

Perhaps we've hit a raw nerve? Judging by your rather OTT reaction, this appears to be the case ;)

Marco.

DaveK

20-08-2009, 19:37

Pick whatever forum you like and read the main hi-fi section... If you don't find at least one guy moaning that his wife won't 'let' him have this or that for his hi-fi system then you're either blind or you simply don't want to acknowledge the obvious...

Perhaps we've hit a raw nerve? Judging by your rather OTT reaction, this appears to be the case ;)

Marco.
Hi Marco,
We, or at least I, are not discoursing about guys moaning about what their wives will or will not let them have, although I have no recollection on this forum of any members posting in this manner. We are discoursing about partnership compromise on aspects of hi-fi kit placement in a living room - the two subjects are poles apart - get back on topic.
With regards to hitting a raw nerve, a bit of self inspection might be in order - "Methinks he doth protest too much" springs immediately to mind.
Cheers,
PS now going incommunicado due to arrival of visitors.

Spectral Morn

20-08-2009, 19:37

Hi DaveC

My main system occupies the far end of the main(only)living room in the Edwardian terrace house where we live. It was once two rooms that have been knocked into one room. Its aligned along the wall where a fire place was, so firing across the room. The other end, is the main sitting area, and where the TV sits and the home cinema system lives.

I am after many years being in the audio/video trade well aware, having witnessed many spouse spats about all manner of audio/video gear, truly blessed to have a wife who while she isn't interested in my audio interest does not stop or hinder my pursuit of it. I love her very much.

Some one once told me that as a suggestion I should have her cloned as the perfect audiophile wife...sorry guys but she all mine :)

Regards D S D L

Mike

20-08-2009, 19:49

'Course not, but that goes for a lot of stuff being discussed on fora, innit?

Truth is, if you don't get along with the missus in what concerns hi-fi, a bit of banter on a forum won't solve the problem, but having a moan sometimes makes people feel better, nothing wrong with that, is it?

Far as I'm concerned, if I don't get silly with things (which I don't, mainly because I like to think of myself as a considerate person so I don't take into account my wishes only) there's absolutely no problem. She doesn't want to know what I'm spending on hi-fi, which suits me just fine, but then again I'm not leaving the bills unpaid to get myself the latest cryo mains plug.

It's all about balance, methinks. But you can't have balance if you're not prepared to think about the person next to you. You can't destroy the look of the living room with some fugly equipment (and I have seen some pig ugly stuff out there) just because there's some elusive degree of improvement to your audition and not care about anything else than your satisfaction with that extra increment of joy it brings you.

As has been said, there are solutions. There's so much good stuff out there you don't absolutely have to pick the shittiest looking of them all just to show who's wearing the trousers, I don't think. Now, if your other half turns her nose up at the simple mention of any thing hi-fi, that's different, but if you only discovered that now, then you've got a potentially bigger problem on your hands than just the home improvement and design...

Nice post, Eddie. I agree fully! :)

It's just that the thread title contains the word "again"... we've done this to death already! ;)

This thread seem to be designed to do nothing other than 'stir it' if you see what I mean? :lol:

SteveW

20-08-2009, 19:53

Look ...OK my wife may wear the trousers in our house...but I fookin iron them.

Mike

20-08-2009, 19:57

Look ...OK my wife may wear the trousers in our house...but I fookin iron them.

:lolsign:

Alex_UK

20-08-2009, 19:58

My wife would let me have pretty much whatever I wanted in the living room, but, at the end of the day, no-compromise hi-fi is a secondary consideration to real-life - I'm lucky enough that I could turn a spare room into a listening room - but would I want to spend hours away from my wife & daughter? Absolutely not! (Maybe in another couple of years I'll need a man-cave!)

Marco

20-08-2009, 20:07

Haha, Steve, nice one! :lol:

Dave,

We, or at least I, are not discoursing about guys moaning about what their wives will or will not let them have, although I have no recollection on this forum of any members posting in this manner. We are discoursing about partnership compromise on aspects of hi-fi kit placement in a living room - the two subjects are poles apart - get back on topic.

The two are intrinsically related, old chap, hence why I brought it up. The subject is 'WAF' (Wife Acceptability Factor) and the undisputable fact is that some guys moan about what their wives will accept (or not) with regards to hi-fi!

With regards to hitting a raw nerve, a bit of self inspection might be in order - "Methinks he doth protest too much" springs immediately to mind.

Not at all – I am very content with my married relationship, thanks. The reason I’m participating in this discussion is to try and coax those out of the woodwork whose married relationships resemble what I’ve described, with regards to housing the hi-fi system, and to ask them why they put up with it... What perplexes me most is the apparently accepted notion (by some) that the woman should have sole say (or more say) as to what is put in the living room of the jointly-owned marital home :cool:

To that I say bullshit! :ner:

Marco.

P.S If you want an unbiased opinion of what my wife is like (regarding the hi-fi situation) ask Steve Toy or the other people on this forum who've met her. Incidentally, she's been reading every word of this as I've been typing it - I kid you not! :eyebrows:

Alexxus

20-08-2009, 20:17

It's just that the thread title contains the word "again"... we've done this to death already! ;)

This thread seem to be designed to do nothing other than 'stir it' if you see what I mean? :lol:
Yeah, but I didn't see the other ones. Oh wait, this could be a trap for non-suspecting gullible citizen such as myself. Oh, my God, what did I let myself into :lol:

Look ...OK my wife may wear the trousers in our house...but I fookin iron them.
Good one, Steve, nearly fell off my chair :rolleyes:

Marco

20-08-2009, 20:24

Hi Alex,

I'm lucky enough that I could turn a spare room into a listening room - but would I want to spend hours away from my wife & daughter? Absolutely not!

I completely agree - it would be weird and unnatural to do so.

I also have a dedicated music room, *but* quite often my wife joins me and we both listen to music together whilst enjoying a nice bottle of wine or three :)

No way do I lock myself away in a darkened room like some sort of recluse!

Besides, I have my little 'pets' to attend to in there behind my 'secret door', haha. Daddy's coming my lovelies....... :eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Marco.

Alex_UK

20-08-2009, 20:27

I have my little 'pets' to attend to in there behind my 'secret door', haha. Daddy's coming my lovelies....... :eyebrows: :eyebrows:

be afraid, be very afraid! :chainsaw:

:lol:

Jonboy

20-08-2009, 20:56

Perhaps some or all of us are guilty of our little secrets in the telling the wife that it only cost £300 instead of the real price of £500 and what a bargain it was at that price, honesty prevails in the end as the words SEX BAN come to the fore when you get found out :doh:, i now always try to involve my wife and even my daughters in the pursuit of HiFi nervana as you all know the female of the species always has the better and more disserning ear for sound quility, fact i'm afraid
This thread could go on forever about the virtues and dissavantages of having a spouse, WAF is here to stay so we must deal with it as we can

I to have the wife looking over my shoulder as i write this Ah it's so sweet.

Marco i think we were seperated at birth as it seems we share to much in common :lolsign: and i lived in Wales for a while:doh:

If this dosn't make sense the red wine is taking over:cool:

I wish i was good at English as others hers seem to be very articulate

Joe

20-08-2009, 21:39

Beechwoods

20-08-2009, 21:46

:uhho:

Alex_UK

20-08-2009, 21:53

I think it's children (or lack of same) that make the difference, both in terms of how much spare cash there is and how much room there is, rather than bossy wives. The only person i know of with speakers built in the ceiling is Marco!

I had Kef speakers in the bathroom ceiling in my flat! That was before I got married and had a little 'un - now I just praise the lord for every day the drivers in my normal speakers don't get poked in by very little fingers... :steam: Maybe I should go back to mounting them in the ceiling! :lol:

Marco

20-08-2009, 22:26

I think it's children (or lack of same) that make the difference, both in terms of how much spare cash there is and how much room there is, rather than bossy wives. The only person i know of with speakers built in the ceiling is Marco!

Indeed - in our mad new bathroom, and very good they sound too!

Of course kids (or lack thereof) make a difference, Joe. However, evidence (and personal experience) still shows that in many circumstances it's the woman who dictates what is put in the lounge in terms of furniture, hi-fi gear, or anything else, and the guy just puts up with it - but will often then moan about it later when she's not there... The kids (or lack thereof) have got nothing to do with it. I'm not talking about disposable income, but rather 'who wears the pants', so to speak, (even although Steve will iron them! :lol:)

I run a business supplying artwork and a bespoke framing service to both corporate and private clients. When I visit the latter in their homes (often together as a couple) I can tell you that at least 80% of the time it's the woman who makes the final decision as to which pictures are chosen to hang on the wall and how they are framed, etc, and what matches the decor overall (certainly when dealing with mass-produced bog standard prints).

I have also witnessed first-hand umpteen arguments between boyfriends and girlfriends and husbands and wives, when one likes one thing and one likes the other, and the woman telling the man in no uncertain terms that she's not having *that* on her wall. Trust me, this is the sort of language that is used - and the majority of men just put up with it like subservient little puppies, even when it is obvious that they are far from happy with the situation.

The key thing to note is that they are not doing it as a kind gesture out of love to please their girlfriends or wives - far from it - they are being forced into it, often through emotional blackmail by their partners. It is this lack of gumption from men and (apparent) tolerance towards being manipulated that bugs me. To them I say: 'grow some cohonas!' :ner:

Furthermore, I used to work in a hi-fi shop in Glasgow and have also helped a friend out in his hi-fi shop in Chester on numerous occasions, and if I had a pound for the number of 'in-store battles' I've witnessed between husbands and wives regarding what size of speakers SHE will allow HIM to have in HER living room, it would've paid for the new crossovers in my Tannoys! ;)

No, I'm afraid that "bossy wives" (and subservient men) are alive and kicking in this country, somewhere in a house near you! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Steve Toy

21-08-2009, 00:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
.... one individual is exercising power over the other on the flimsiest of pretexts and for possibly dubious motives...

And on what evidence do you base that outrageous statement, particularly the last phrase?

The fact that a change in layout of a room to accommodate a considerable improvement in your listening pleasure is such a big deal to her. I see a power trip - she has little to lose from the changes and you have much to gain, especially if the logistics or practicalities of any change around are not even open for discussion. If you both enjoy listening to music then she's cutting her nose off to spite her face just to remain in charge!

Outrageous indeed.

Steve Toy

21-08-2009, 03:39

I think it's children (or lack of same) that make the difference, both in terms of how much spare cash there is and how much room there is, rather than bossy wives.

I think children and bossy wives are two entirely separate issues. No responsible parent is going to want

a) to risk injury to their offspring.

b) risk damage to an expensive purchase by their offspring

The WAF issue is purely about issues of relationship dynamics given that most hi-fi hobbyists are male.

It may also be a case of many women perceiving their man's hobby as some kind of threat. My own experience tells me that fewer women than men have hobbies and those that don't have any outside of the usual shopping/circle of friends etc. are more likely feel threatened by the idea of their partner having another pastime, especially if it is fairly recent thing.

DSJR

21-08-2009, 08:19

I think my degree is going to be in psychology. I can then bore you guys with even longer essays on the human condidion :D

Laydeez have a far better eye and sensitivity for getting a room right - usually - and sometimes a smallish living room (which many of us have) doesn't always go with a mega-bling stereo (unless it's a B&O of course).

Marco, your post above is testament that you're almost certainly an exception as a couple. If you suddenly found that you had to struggle with life and living, things may become a little more frqactious at home.

I've not only seen the situation in the shops mentioned above, but i've also been witness to a wife really laying into her hubby (with two boys in tow) because he ventured into the shop for a chat for five minutes... it was all I could do to keep my mouth shut :(

Marco

21-08-2009, 10:00

Laydeez have a far better eye and sensitivity for getting a room right - usually -

I agree, Dave - experience proves this (in general), bearing in mind that I deal with this sort of situation almost every day in my type of business.

However, whist trying to be as modest as possible, I'm not your 'average' male when it comes to interior design or 'arty' stuff. I'm pretty good at this sort of thing and have a good eye for colour and how to co-ordinate it in the design of a room. These skills do come in quite handy as a picture-framer!

As you know, we've had a new bathroom fitted, which Del and I designed together from scratch, and when it's 100% finished I'll post some pictures and you can tell me what you think :)

We chose EVERYTHING together, from the Victorian-style bathroom units, to the shade of paint on the woodwork, the finish of the Zebrano wood toilet seat, to the style of spotlights, down to even the size and shape of the chrome light switches! We like to marry traditional with contemporary.

I love interior design, and go into it in as much detail as I do with hi-fi! Let's also remember that some of the best interior designers are male - although they're mostly gay! Don't start, haha :lol:

Marco, your post above is testament that you're almost certainly an exception as a couple. If you suddenly found that you had to struggle with life and living, things may become a little more frqactious at home.

I know we're not your average couple - we have a very close relationship. It's not 'distant', or like you say, fractious like that of many other couples. I know I'm lucky, but so is she! ;)

I'd just like to see more of our type of relationship around, especially when it comes to the subject of housing hi-fi systems in the home, than you and I have experienced first-hand from working in the industry or witness on forums. It's quite sad really :(

I've not only seen the situation in the shops mentioned above, but i've also been witness to a wife really laying into her hubby (with two boys in tow) because he ventured into the shop for a chat for five minutes... it was all I could do to keep my mouth shut

Nightmare! I know exactly what you mean and could quote many similar examples of such myself... Let's count our blessings that none of us here are so pathetically under the thumb!

Marco.

Alex_UK

21-08-2009, 10:27

I love interior design, and go into it in as much detail as I do with hi-fi! Let's also remember that some of the best interior designers are male - although they're mostly gay! Don't start, haha :lol:

Me too - I suggested the majority of the colour schemes and furniture when we did the house, I can even do rugs and cushions and accessorize, dahling!! That's partly why I won't let the hi-fi ruin the look of the living room - (though both my play room, and the study are a mess!)

Anyway, if Del ever goes away and you fancy a drink... :eyebrows:

:lolsign:

Steve Toy

21-08-2009, 10:29

To be under the thumb like that it needs to have been allowed to happen in the first place. How dare she embarrass him in public by mouthing off like that because he has dared to walk into a shop! That is just control freakery.

Some women really do push the control thing though by locking the man out of the house/withdrawing sex for ages if he dared to challenge such behaviour in the best way possible - walking off for a couple of hours.

Some relationships can go on for many years like that with the guy just doing as he is told and his feelings/wants/needs (other than the basics such as food, sex, clean clothes etc.) completely ignored.

These are not relationships founded on compromise, communication and consideration. They are utterly one-sided. Very sad.

I realise how lucky I am.

Joe

21-08-2009, 10:42

This has played a major role in the demise of the hi-fi industry in recent years .

Major causes of the decline in British hifi, in no particular order;
Cheap hifi from China or elsewhere, sold directly over the Internet or via Richer Sounds, eg the well-regarded Cambridge models

Growth in home cinema with resulting need for several small speakers rather than two big speakers

Growth in downloaded music/iPod market

Poor attitude of many traditional hifi dealers, many of whom were condescending and patronizing, often to the point of rudeness

Traditional hifi becoming comparatively more expensive; outstripping inflation by a large margin (see Paul Messengers recent article in HiFi Plus for some examples of this)

Moreover, its not as if everyone into hifi was using big speakers back in the day then suddenly (or even gradually) switched to small speakers because of WAF issues. Two of the old-school faves were the BBC LS3/5 models and Linn Kans, both fairly compact.

Anyway, this my last post to AoS. I'd rather not be in a forum where the administrator behaves like a tinpot dictator.
----------------------
That is entirely up to you. I deleted your post for saying I was talking bollocks and asked you to elaborate further. You have now done that. I also did this privately. Other forums moderate more publicly. You are free to go and enjoy them! You are also free to stay around and abide by our very reasonable forum ethos.

A 'tin-pot dictator' would not give you that choice.

Steve.

Marco

21-08-2009, 10:44

Joe,

Come on, man, stop acting like a hard done to big girl's blouse - you give as good as you get!

Do you think that your rude and completely unprovoked remark to Steve yesterday was acceptable - shall I remind others and you again of what it was?

Marco.

Spectral Morn

21-08-2009, 10:50

Nonsense.

Major causes of the decline in British hifi, in no particular order;
Cheap hifi from China or elsewhere, sold directly over the Internet or via Richer Sounds, eg the well-regarded Cambridge models

Growth in home cinema with resulting need for several small speakers rather than two big speakers

Growth in downloaded music/iPod market

Poor attitude of many ‘traditional’ hifi dealers, many of whom were condescending and patronizing, often to the point of rudeness

‘Traditional’ hifi becoming comparatively more expensive; outstripping inflation by a large margin (see Paul Messenger’s recent article in HiFi Plus for some examples of this)

Moreover, it’s not as if everyone into hifi was using big speakers back in the day then suddenly (or even gradually) switched to small speakers because of WAF issues. Two of the old-school faves were the BBC LS3/5 models and Linn Kans, both fairly compact.

Anyway, this my last post to AoS. I'd rather not be in a forum where the administrator behaves like a tinpot dictator.

I agree with your assessment Joe though Steve's point is also a factor just a wee bit further down the list.

Joe your comment about Steve can't be allowed hence it was removed but this would apply in any such case, and about anyone management or member alike.

It would be a pity for you to go, as that last post is right on the money IMHO/E

Regards D S D L

StanleyB

21-08-2009, 10:58

I wouldn't call CA products cheap. At least, not at the point of sale over the counter.

Steve Toy

21-08-2009, 11:19

I agree with the points made in Joe's post but would still maintain that WAF has also been a nail in the coffin, especially as hi-fi is no longer regarded as a must-have status symbol to impress the dinner guests.

Now that hi-fi is just about the music (with possibly enjoying the process of improving its reproduction along the way) its true purpose is laid bare.

Perhaps prices have risen due to reasons of shrinking economies of scale as the market itself shrinks due to WAF factors at least in part.

Perhaps many dealers have not really helped themselves and have failed to adapt to these changes by focusing on the true purpose of hi-fi. Others have perhaps simply become more greedy/desperate for sales as trading conditions become tougher.

Then there is AV, multiroom, systems built around the home PC, lifestyle hi-fi from the likes of Bose, B & O and of course the WAF sell-outs from established hi-fi manufacturers who basically have given up on their (shrinking) core market.

The Spike and all the setup implications that have followed it have probably put off the faint-hearted fairer sex who remember wistfully the days of ignorance being bliss when stereo meant no more than simply owning two speakers that could be plonked anywhere, one on a shelf with a plant pot on it and the other behind the sofa.

DaveK

21-08-2009, 11:22

I run a business supplying artwork and a bespoke framing service to both corporate and private clients. When I visit the latter in their homes (often together as a couple) I can tell you that at least 80% of the time it's the woman who makes the final decision as to which pictures are chosen to hang on the wall and how they are framed, etc, and what matches the decor overall (certainly when dealing with mass-produced bog standard prints). Any elements of snobbery here? Nothing wrong with mass produced bog standard prints in the right setting - not everyone can afford original art work - sorry, thread drift

I have also witnessed first-hand umpteen arguments between boyfriends and girlfriends and husbands and wives, when one likes one thing and one likes the other, and the woman telling the man in no uncertain terms that she's not having *that* on her wall. Trust me, this is the sort of language that is used - and the majority of men just put up with it like subservient little puppies, even when it is obvious that they are far from happy with the situation. Sounds like the sort of discussion heard on many car sales forecourts except that the roles are reversed - put another way different partners have different and firmly held opinions about different aspects of partnered life - again, maybe slightly off topic but serves to illustrate the point.

The key thing to note is that they are not doing it as a kind gesture out of love to please their girlfriends or wives - far from it - they are being forced into it, often through emotional blackmail by their partners. That is your opinion, to which you are fully entitled, but it ain't necessarily true - another impartial observer of the same discussion may reach a different conclusion It is this lack of gumption from men and (apparent) tolerance towards being manipulated that bugs me. To them I say: 'grow some cohonas!' :ner: The need for cohonas infers a perceived need for assertiveness and aggression (testosterone related) which have no part to play in discussion or negotiation between equal partners. :ner: :ner: .

No, I'm afraid that "bossy wives" (and subservient men) are alive and kicking in this country, somewhere in a house near you! :eyebrows: I'm sure there are, like there are bossy husbands and subservient wives alive and kicking somewhere in a house near you :eyebrows: .

Marco.

.... one individual is exercising power over the other on the flimsiest of pretexts and for possibly dubious motives...

And on what evidence do you base that outrageous statement, particularly the last phrase?

The fact that a change in layout of a room to accommodate a considerable improvement in your listening pleasure is such a big deal to her. I see a power trip - she has little to lose from the changes and you have much to gain, especially if the logistics or practicalities of any change around are not even open for discussion. If you both enjoy listening to music then she's cutting her nose off to spite her face just to remain in charge!

Outrageous indeed.
The fact is that a change in the layout of a (living) room to accommodate anything is a big deal to most house proud women. Anyone that sees a "power trip" in that has a mysogyny problem IMO. In most partnerships, as evidenced by my reading of the posts on this forum, one partner's enjoyment of listening to music is usually much higher than the other's, so removal of nose to spite face does not apply. No one's in charge in a partnership, by definition - any other view is indeed outrageous in this day and age.

It may also be a case of many women perceiving their man's hobby as some kind of threat. My own experience tells me that fewer women than men have hobbies and those that don't have any outside of the usual shopping/circle of friends etc. are more likely feel threatened by the idea of their partner having another pastime, especially if it is fairly recent thing. That statement is a complete load of mysogynist cohonas, IMHO.

Cheers,

Marco

21-08-2009, 11:25

It would be a pity for you to go, as that last post is right on the money IMHO/E

I agree - I enjoy many of Joe's posts. I've got no idea where he’s getting this "tin-pot dictator" nonsense from, though. Steve was merely offering his opinion on the thread topic, to which Joe made an OTT rude remark that required to be removed...

Then he goes off in a hissy fit because his remark was deleted. I'm trying to work out here what Steve did wrong :confused:

Marco.

P.S Steve, look at Joe's post #40 - you've made an arse of your edit! ;)

Mike

21-08-2009, 11:34

Marco

21-08-2009, 11:36

Dave,

I will get to your above post later, but I must ask you to remove the misogynist remarks aimed at Steve, as they are deeply insulting. I know Steve very well indeed and he most certainly does not fall into that category!

Put your point across robustly by all means, but without using such inflammatory language - ta!

Marco.

Alexxus

21-08-2009, 11:39

What do I do/say next? :smoking:
Just head-butt her. Problem solved, there'll be no next time :lolsign:

Marco

21-08-2009, 11:46

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... Hilarious!! :lol: :lol:

Eddie, mate, you fit in here just fine.

Mikey,

I'll answer your question seriously after lunch!

Marco.

Steve Toy

21-08-2009, 11:49

S'ok Marco I will deal with the mysogyny comment as I think it is a point that needs addressing. For it to be true I would have to hate women. The reality is I like/respect most of them. I do have slight feelings of contempt though for people (male or female) who allow themselves to be walked on by their partners.

If anyone is so 'houseproud' that their partner dare not move anything in the room by so much as an inch or suggest any changes whatsoever to the 'status quo' then there is clearly a control issue and zero scope for compromise.

Mike

21-08-2009, 11:50

Just head-butt her. Problem solved, there'll be no next time :lolsign:

Err, yeah. I could do that, but.... :doh:

Marco

21-08-2009, 11:51

If anyone is so 'houseproud' that their partner dare not move anything in the room by so much as an inch or suggest any changes whatsoever to the 'status quo' then there is clearly a control issue and zero scope for compromise.

Completely agree! Right, me roast chicken awaits :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn

21-08-2009, 11:51

Hypothetical question...

Mrs H and I walk into a shop and I spot some hoofing great speakers (I'll use speakers as an example as they seem to be the bone of contention most often).

"Ooh, I fancy those" Say's I.

"What?... they're bloody hideous. No way!" Say's Mrs H. (and she has a fair point).

What do I do/say next? :smoking:

Explain the value of the upgrade say...BRIGHT RED YAMAHA NS1000 or MARTIN LOGANS etc. Explain that having a listen at home is worth while etc and it would allow them to be seen in the room and heard then take it from there...... hope for the best after that.

Just head-butt her. Problem solved, there'll be no next time

Hi Alexxus , even in humour I do not support the threat of violence to women from men or from women to men. I don't think that comment is ok...even as a joke.... I hate being PC, but thats what I think.

Regards D S D L

Mike

21-08-2009, 11:53

I'll answer your question seriously after lunch!

Lunch!... now there's a good idea! :)

I've been a bit distracted by a UPS parcel thats just arrived, having made it's way from Blackburn! :eyebrows:

Marco

21-08-2009, 11:55

Eddie was only kidding, Neil, FFS! :doh:

Come on, I think some people need to lighten up a little bit! I'd have laughed if it had been the other way round, too...

Besides, some women can pack a mean right-hook! :eyebrows:

Right, maybe I can get me lunch now...

Marco.

Alexxus

21-08-2009, 12:02

Spectral Morn

21-08-2009, 12:07

'Course I was only joking, what's wrong with everybody? :confused:
I thought the place could do with a bit of mood-lightening, that's all...

Marco, you're right mate, I know a few ladies that could knock a guy down no probs, but the question was asked of men.:)

Better get my coat, I'll get mixed up in this if I'm not careful.

Ta

Sorry Eddie I know you were joking, but the problem is due to the nature of the topic and the heat being generated this comment even as a joke might cause more heat...so might it not have been better not to be made. However it has and is out there now.

I agree Marco, humour and lightening things up is good, but I fear the comment will not do that but IMHO cause more heat.

Regards D S D L

Mike

21-08-2009, 12:09

Explain the value of the upgrade say...BRIGHT RED YAMAHA NS1000 or MARTIN LOGANS etc.

Neil, I'm speaking hypothetically... I don't usually have a serious problem with this sort of thing.

With the ML's, I showed her a picture of them beforehand and she responded by saying "Ooh, they're pretty!" - Which I wasn't expecting!

With the red yammies, I showed her a picture and she responded by saying "They're hidious... no way!" - Which I was expecting! However... the next day she added "You know... those red speakers will probably look nice. I'll get some red cushions to match, we could do with a bit of colour in there".

A happy compromise!

I still haven't collected them yet, though... It could all kick off again once they're plonked in the room! :lol:

Spectral Morn

21-08-2009, 12:15

Neil, I'm speaking hypothetically... I don't usually have a serious problem with this sort of thing.

With the ML's, I showed her a picture of them beforehand and she responded by saying "Ooh, they're pretty!" - Which I wasn't expecting!

With the red yammies, I showed her a picture and she responded by saying "They're hidious... no way!" - Which I was expecting! However... the next day she added "You know... those red speakers will probably look nice. I'll get some red cushions to match, we could do with a bit of colour in there".

A happy compromise!

I still haven't collected them yet, though... It could all kick off again once they're plonked in the room! :lol:

Hi Mike

I was just using those as an example not to stir ;), well not much:lol::lol::lol:

I hope they work well for you on the right kit they sound very good. I heard a set on the end of a Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista integrated amplifier and matching SACD player fabulous sound the heart beat at the beginning of Pink Floyd's DSOM was incredible as was the rest of the album. The owner was a customer of the shop I used to work in...I would say I had a bit of a bias against 1970's speakers especially Jap ones...I was wrong big time.

Regards D S D L

Mike

21-08-2009, 12:22

Hi Mike

I was just using those as an example not to stir ;), well not much:lol::lol::lol:

I know! ;) :)

DaveK

21-08-2009, 12:28

Hi Mike,
Nice one!! I look forward to reading the responses to this, both the funny one's like Eddie' with which I have no problem as a joke (very different if intended seriously), and the serious ones yet to come - should be interesting.
Cheers,

Mike

21-08-2009, 12:31

I guess I'm trying to emphasise the 'compromise' bit.

If it does turn out that they look vile in her opinion, then I will take her opinion seriously and look elsewhere or consider refinishing them in some way...

Thankfully we both agree that the sound quality is the most important aspect, but at the same time it is a domestic setting that we both use. It's not my room where 'anything goes'.

It's got sod all to with my cohonas, or lack thereof! ;)

Beechwoods

21-08-2009, 12:35

:scratch:

What are cohonas?

DaveK

21-08-2009, 12:45

S'ok Marco I will deal with the mysogeny comment as I think it is a point that needs addressing. For it to be true I would have to hate women. All your previous posts have referred to women ruling the roost over men. It seems to be a natural assumption to make, IMO.

If anyone is so 'houseproud' that their partner dare not move anything in the room by so much as an inch or suggest any changes whatsoever to the 'status quo' then there is clearly a control issue and zero scope for compromise.

And where did that idea come from? - it certainly bears little resemblence to anything I posted:
The fact is that a change in the layout of a (living) room to accommodate anything is a big deal to most house proud women.

Mike

21-08-2009, 12:50

:scratch:

What are cohonas?

Bollocks!

No to put too fine a point on it! :lol:

The Vinyl Adventure

21-08-2009, 12:53

Marco

21-08-2009, 12:54

Dave,

The fact is that a change in the layout of a (living) room to accommodate anything is a big deal to most house proud women.

Is it really? Not in my experience. And I know plenty of house proud women!

Besides, I'm not really sure what you mean by that. What do you mean "to accommodate anything" and a "big deal"? I showed it to my wife and she doesn't quite understand what you mean either :scratch:

Layouts of rooms are changed all the time to accommodate all sorts of things, such as a new suite, new cabinets, new tables, etc, and perhaps also a hi-fi system...

Where's the problem in that, providing that both parties are happy with whatever new is being accommodated? In our home, my house proud wife would have no problem whatsoever with that.

Perhaps you could explain in more detail exactly what you're getting at... No disrespect, but perhaps this is an age thing?

Marco.

P.S Mikey, nice one on the valves. Let me know how you get on :)

Mike

21-08-2009, 12:56

my missis has expressed a distaste for the light oak finnish of my speakers... im going to use it as an excuse to upgrade..
its just making them belive its thier idea... thats the key to getting your own way i recon!

Ideed!

There are 'ways and means' without having to thow your weight about, or 'show her who's boss'. No need for all that macho shit IMHO. ;)

The Vinyl Adventure

21-08-2009, 12:56

...... and it looks like the pmc ob1i's come in walnut (the wood colour she desires)
.... bonus!!

The Vinyl Adventure

21-08-2009, 12:57

Ideed!

There are 'ways and means' without having to thow your weight about, or 'show her who's boss'. No need for all that macho shit IMHO. ;)

yep, agreed!

Marco

21-08-2009, 13:03

There are 'ways and means' without having to thow your weight about, or 'show her who's boss'. No need for all that macho shit IMHO.

Indeed not, Mikey. However, I'm not sure exactly who has advocated such an approach. I've only said that Del and I decide things together as a couple, as has Steve with Tasha. I would never 'lay down the law' like that to Del - you've met her, do you think she'd stand for that? ;)

She's read everything I've written here and if I'd have come across like that she'd have given me a swift slap across the chops! :eyebrows:

No, it's a matter of no-one being 'dictated to' and both parties needs/wants being considered and catered for equally. No-one should be the 'boss'. *That* is the right and fair way.

You seem to have a pretty harmonious and healthy relationship with your good lady :smoking:

Marco.

Steve Toy

21-08-2009, 13:04

Indeed.

Balance is the key, not a reversal of roles. You have no more right to walk all over her than she does you.

Mike

21-08-2009, 13:12

I'm not sure exactly who has advocated such an approach.

I don't think (or certainly hope) anyone has, to be fair.

But it could be inferred in one of those 'reading between the lines' sort of ways... what with all this talk of growing some cohonas/head-butting and whatnot! Maybe.

Easy enough to misinterpret that sort of stuff, you know! ;)

Anyway... my attention span has expired again. I'm off to fondle my shiny new valves! :eyebrows:

Laterz...

Steve Toy

21-08-2009, 14:44

I said:
S'ok Marco I will deal with the mysogeny comment as I think it is a point that needs addressing. For it to be true I would have to hate women.

To which Dave C replied:

All your previous posts have referred to women ruling the roost over men. It seems to be a natural assumption to make, IMO.

Only in certain circumstances does this seem to happen and only where the men are weak enough to allow it to happen. It certainly doesn't happen chez Toy and in most other households of AOS members.

My understanding of mysogyny is a general, perhaps pathological hatred of women.

DaveC, your weakness towards your woman (whom I respect for trying it on and pushing it as far as she can get away with :D) does not me a mysogynist make.

Alex_UK

21-08-2009, 15:52

Spectral Morn

21-08-2009, 16:22

When I moved in with my (now) wife, she didn't like my black ash effect Kef Coda's - I let her choose the cherry finish of the Acoustic Energy's - and she even paid for them, too! That's the sort of compromise I like!

I provide all the technology in the house and pay for it. With the exceptions of TV, Sky (mostly cancelled now) and DVD my wife isn't interested in the music side of things, but she likes and uses those.

Regards D S D L

Alex_UK

21-08-2009, 16:29

Sue doesn't "get it" - but she let's me indulge myself, she knows I'm a geek and pretty harmless, usually! I don't "get" her soaps, so I do the ironing with my headphones on! I only get told off if I accidentally sing! :D

DaveK

21-08-2009, 19:07

:eyebrows:
I said:
DaveC, your weakness towards your woman ......... does not me a mysogynist make.
Hi Steve,
You are about as wrong in that statement as you are, IMHO, in your previous statements about me and my (over?) willingness to compromise on the layout of our living room. Compromise means exactly that, compromise, not one partner 'negotiating' everything they need/want.
Although my wife is not a member of this forum, 'cos she cares little about any music unless it emanates from her Bose Sound Dock, I would be quite happy to let her post whatever she wants to post about my weakness towards her. Only problem I foresee is that, assuming she posts anything that does not support your view of our domestic arrangements regarding compromise, you'd find a reason to disbelieve it. :eyebrows:
I've been away from the PC all afternoon until now and have only read a few of the more recent posts on this thread but, to strike a positive note, despite previous posts to the contrary, there does seem to be a concensus forming that no partner has any rights to impose a decision on any partner. We can all agree on that, presumably?
Cheers,

Steve Toy

21-08-2009, 19:42

DaveK

21-08-2009, 20:12

Dave, as provocative as I have been I do begin to wonder how committed you are to improving the performance of your music reproduction and how little this actually has to do with your wife's stance on this.

Hi Steve,
If it's OK for 'Admin' to be provocative without making it apparent from the start, can I assume it's OK for 'bog standard' ordinary member plebs like me to do the same - that is a situation I might enjoy ;) . Or are you now trying to back track just a little from your rather forthright views expressed earlier to which I took such exception? - I too can be provocative :ner::ner::ner: .
If you have seen my previous posts on this and other threads I have made it quite clear what my priorities are and hi-fi is a long way from being at the top of that list. To quote, or maybe paraphrase, another member, AlexUK I think it was, I am into music much more than I am into hi-fi. Put another way, my search is one for the best sound I can get that fits into my lifestyle, rather than the best lifestyle that fits into my search for hi-fi Nirvana. This has been my position from day one and has sweet B. A. to do with my wife's stance on this. Why is it so difficult for you to accept that I am quite willing to accept less than what I know would be ideal from a hi-fi point of view solely because that stance is best from our lifestyle point of view. It has absolutlely sweet B. A. to do with any lack of cohonas, wimpy personality or any other such psuedo psychobabble bullshit. Stick to advising folks on hi-fi rather than relationships - believe me you're much, much better at it.
Cheers,

Clive

21-08-2009, 20:20

Dave C, great to see that you are taking a balanced view to life, this in my view is vital for sustainable relationships and general well-being. Good on'yer!

markf

21-08-2009, 21:05

I can't help thinking Steve, if you didn't have your power cables all over
the floor then your system would be very WAF compliant.
The small CD player, the clear rack, the narrow speakers and just the matching pre and power amp.
The only thing that makes it look messy are the power cables traipsed across the floor

But I'm not a woman (nor light in my loafers) so don't take this as an expert opinion on WAF.

Steve Toy

21-08-2009, 21:34

Steve Toy

21-08-2009, 21:43

mark, do you mean my current Hecos or my old Piegas?

Alex_UK

21-08-2009, 21:51

As for the old chestnut about being into the music not the hi-fi, do you listen to music actively or just have it on in the background?

I'm going to jump in here Steve, as DaveC credited me with the "old chestnut" to which you refer. I am obviously answering in my capacity not on behalf of DaveC! To answer your question directly, actively 10% of the time, in the background, 90% of the time. I wish it were more, but that's not viable for me with my lifestyle at the moment. I travel probably 20 hours a week minimum, work 50, spend as much of the remaining time as possible with my wife and 11 month old daughter. Now, at 10.40pm both are in bed - I can't really listen "actively" as I have to keep the volume reasonable, and headphones aren't possible as I am on "baby watch" ready to jump to bottle duty at a wimper's notice. But, I love my music, so when I am in the office or on the train it's the ipod if I can manage it, in the car I am always playing my latest CDs, if I'm not on the 'phone, at home if I can, to some degree, fire up one of my means of listening to my music collection.

Any method to connect with the emotion of the performance, the beauty of the music, escapism - whatever you want to call it - however narrow the window of opportunity in both time and quality. Is it any less enriching to experience a wonderful piece of music via a £100 ipod than a £10,000 hi-fi system? In my opinion - no.

Why do you have to belittle other people's different opinions by using such expressions as "the old chestnut"?

Clive

21-08-2009, 21:54

DaveC, we are now closer to the truth so no need to use your better half as a scapegoat.

As for the old chestnut about being into the music not the hi-fi, do you listen to music actively or just have it on in the background?

Seems to me there's some sort of agenda going on here. Deliberate baiting of folks who are happy with their balance in life ain't too clever. I must admit I have a slightly unhealthy interest not just in music but also sound reproduction technology. To most "normal" people the extent I go to get the sound I want is really quite extreme. Hence I have my own listening room - which btw I've just spent the week renovating. But we're all different so live and let live.

DaveK

21-08-2009, 22:06

Hi Marco,
Forgive me for taking so long to respond to this request but I have only just got round to reading all the 'back-posts' on this thread that were posted earlier whilst I was otherwise occupied.

Perhaps you could explain in more detail exactly what you're getting at... No disrespect, but perhaps this is an age thing?
Gladly but first can I first make a small point? Your previous responses to me have often complained about the detail that I include, with some justifcation I admit :lol: . Now you ask for more detail :scratch::scratch: .
Earlier I posted: The fact is that a change in the layout of a (living) room to accommodate anything (new) is a big deal to most house proud women. to which you replied: -

Dave,
Is it really? Not in my experience. And I know plenty of house proud women!

Besides, I'm not really sure what you mean by that. What do you mean "to accommodate anything" and a "big deal"? I showed it to my wife and she doesn't quite understand what you mean either :scratch:

Layouts of rooms are changed all the time to accommodate all sorts of things, such as a new suite, new cabinets, new tables, etc, and perhaps also a hi-fi system... but not usually without prior agreement between the partners involved
Where's the problem in that, providing that both parties are happy with whatever new is being accommodated? In our home, my house proud wife would have no problem whatsoever with that. Nor would any reasonable person "providing that both parties are happy with whatever new ........." that's the key part of that statement !!

Perhaps you could explain in more detail exactly what you're getting at... No disrespect, but perhaps this is an age thing? Another weird assumption, why should it have anything to do with age - whatever brought that into your mind?

Marco
So here's the detail you requested: -
The introduction of any new item of furnishing, decoration or equipment of any sort into the living rooms of most house proud women, or men, is not usually an 'off the cuff' decision in my experience. IMHO and experience such decisions are usually taken after some thought and discussion between the partners concerned and the bigger or more dominant/noticeable (dare I say alien) the new item is the greater is the time spent thinking and discussing. The choice of the expression 'big thing' was Steve's not mine - I was just trying to avoid unnecessary confusion by repeating the term.
I would be very surprised if you good lady wife now found anything difficult to understand or disagree with now I have provided further detail - hope not anyway :) .
Cheers,

markf

21-08-2009, 22:07

Steve,
either set of speakers, the Hecos and the Piegas aren't that dissimilar as far as I remember
(silver floor standers). But you know what I mean , I don't think you have one piece of equipment
that anyone would complain about.

DaveK

21-08-2009, 22:20

DaveC, we are now closer to the truth so no need to use your better half as a scapegoat. and what the bloody hell do you mean by that? - what truth and a scapegoat for what exactly? I have found it difficult to follow some of the logic of some of your previous pontifications but this one really beats all!! I find it difficult to keep the word 'mysogynist' out of my mind again - sorry, perhaps your further explanation could do something to dispel the thought.

As for the old chestnut about being into the music not the hi-fi, do you listen to music actively or just have it on in the background?
I listen to music actively but not to the exclusion of all else. Sometimes it is like wallpaper in the background and sometimes it has my complete concentration - it depends greatly on what else, if anything, I'm doing at the time and what mood I'm in.
So, as we said in my youth, "Put that in your pipe and smoke it!!" ;)
Cheers,
PS
I was so indignant when I saw this post I did not read Alex's response so bear that in mind if it is likely to make any difference in how you read this.

Steve Toy

21-08-2009, 22:28

mark, do you mean my current Hecos or my old Piegas?

Mike

21-08-2009, 22:30

There's an echo in 'ere! :lol:

Alex_UK

21-08-2009, 22:31

Huh? Steve, do you even exist, or are you a stuck record?;)

Mike

21-08-2009, 22:32

Sorry... I'm starting to get disturbed by my own avatar! :lolsign:

Thinks I'll change it sooner rather than later! ;)

Steve Toy

21-08-2009, 22:33

double post. My phone from which i am posting locked up

Marco

21-08-2009, 22:34

Dave vs. Stevie boy... Not sure who's ahead on points at the moment :eyebrows:

Right now, chaps, I'm listening to some tunes after having the smoothing caps in my preamp upgraded and it sounds bloody amazing... Hey, Steve, I think you'll love the effect! Grounded grid? Pah! ;)

.......So I'll re-enter 'the fray' here (probably) tomorrow :cool:

Play nice now!

Marco.

Alex_UK

21-08-2009, 22:35

Sorry... I'm starting to get disturbed by my own avatar! :lolsign:

Thinks I'll change it sooner rather than later! ;)

I like it - thought I'd go for a change too, but no smutt like you! ;)

Mike

21-08-2009, 22:37

Dave vs. Stevie boy... Not sure who's ahead on points at the moment :eyebrows:

It's a draw, and will forever remain so. This is an 'argument' (and I use the term loosely) that can never be 'won'! ;)

So there! :ner:

Clive

21-08-2009, 22:39

Hopefully this thread dies soon. It has to be just about the biggest bunch of cohonas of all time!

DaveK

21-08-2009, 22:41

It's a draw, and will forever remain so. This is an 'argument' (and I use the term loosely) that can never be 'won'! ;)

So there! :ner:

I'll settle for a draw with Steve on the subject of hi-fi/music any day ;)
Cheers,

Mike

21-08-2009, 22:42

Hopefully this thread dies soon. It has to be just about the biggest bunch of cohonas of all time!

:lolsign:..... Don't beat about the bush now, will you!

Barry

21-08-2009, 22:57

Is it just me, or are there other members who are finding this whole thread boring and distasteful?

alb

21-08-2009, 23:02

Is it just me, or are there other members who are finding this whole thread boring and distasteful?

Can't see it achieving much, to be honest.

Mike

21-08-2009, 23:11

Is it just me, or are there other members who are finding this whole thread boring and distasteful?

Very much so... I tried hinting at such earlier.

It's been 'done'! ;)

Alex_UK

21-08-2009, 23:16

7vvAK_e-o20

Crappy laptop speakers, fuzzy picture - one word sums it up for me "wow" - sorry, it's all about the music. Q.E.D.

Mike

22-08-2009, 01:21

My final thoughts on this....

Go placidly amid the noise and the haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons;
they are vexatious to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain or bitter,
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs,
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals,
and everywhere life is full of heroism.
Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love,
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment,
it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be.
And whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life,
keep peace in your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

:smoking:

Mike

22-08-2009, 01:27

Or.....

vunqB9jarzo

Steve Toy

22-08-2009, 02:47

Sometimes it is good to get to the bottom of things. I know what I need to know re. DaveC. You are of course entitled to do as you see fit with your system but I still wanted to know where you really were coming from, Dave.

In more general terms the WAF issue has always fascinated me so this thread genuinely served a dual purpose.

With Dave it isn't really about WAF anyway....

The hi-fi customer base is ever shrinking and aging due to lack of new blood, so how can we make it cool again to listen actively to music at home without headphones and with maximum fidelity, clarity, dynamic range, involvent and realism?

Mark,

The Heco Celan 700s are bigger than they look. They stand just under 1.4m tall. Tasha lives with them but would prefer something smaller.

REM

22-08-2009, 07:34

Steve Toy

22-08-2009, 11:47

Just as Sky TV has lots of channels, AOS has numerous rooms and within each plenty of threads on a variety of topics, so if any given programme is not to your liking, feel free to change channel. :)

You wouldn't swap from Sky TV to Virgin Media on account of one programme on Sky One, would you?

So, how can we make 2-channel audio for music cool again without compromising performance?

Aesthetics are important to me for I do like my kit to look nice. Anthony has taken care to make my AOS components look the part and his Tube Distinctions stuff all looks either utterly gorgeous (Copper Amps) or visually striking and oozing quality (Soul Series). Large Tannoys look delightful in the flesh as do Marco's Lockwoods. They are beautiful pieces of furniture in their own right.

The acrylic stands I use are to taste. Ironically I care little for their appearance but acrylic has great sonic properties. Perhaps Quadraspire and Audioworks should start making acrylic stands in different colours. I would like black.

Hi-fi can have its wow-factor both visually and musically provided it is afforded proper houseroom from the outset. So lets hear it for kit that does the business on both the sonic and eye candy fronts.

Mike

22-08-2009, 12:02

Noting the time of that post all I can think is it must have seemed like a good idea then but in the stone cold sober light of the new days' dawn, with last nights' customary over indulgence weighing heavily on the soul (and even heavier on the stomach) all I can say is:-
"Helloooo Hugheeeeeeee.........:bog:

:D

Nope!

Feeling just fine, ta! :)

Tonight could be another matter entierly though, beer & curry time! :smoking:

Marco

22-08-2009, 12:04

Make sure you've got plenty of arse paper in! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Steve Toy

22-08-2009, 13:28

:offtopic: :mental:

Steve Toy

22-08-2009, 14:03

Marco's Lockwoods

WAF?

I think so. They sound stunning too.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/2317/august09001.jpg (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/august09001.jpg/)

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1138/august09005.jpg (http://img232.imageshack.us/i/august09005.jpg/)

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1842/august09008.jpg (http://img216.imageshack.us/i/august09008.jpg/)

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3690/august09009.jpg (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/august09009.jpg/)

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/342/august09010.jpg (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/august09010.jpg/)

Marco

22-08-2009, 17:02

Themz some mad pics, matey - cheers for posting them :)

15" drive units need big cabinets with wide baffles, so dunno about 'WAF'. They do the biz undoubtedly though where it counts most! They are very, very naughty shpeakerz, and I love 'em to bits.......... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Steve Toy

22-08-2009, 17:57

I consider them to be pieces of furniture in their own right and they also make good lamp stands.

Marco

22-08-2009, 17:59

Aye, why not have a pot plant on top, too? ;)

Btw, next time you hear the Croft you'll be in for a shock! Be afraid, be *VERY* afraid... :eyebrows:

Marco.

DaveK

22-08-2009, 18:32

Off topic ?

Marco

22-08-2009, 18:37

Some thread drift is part and parcel of AOS, Dave - chillax :smoking:

Besides, the original discussion topic's been done to death now, so if no-one else has got anything else to add it might be an idea to let it die its natural death...

Marco.

Alex_UK

22-08-2009, 21:10

Aye, why not have a pot plant on top, too? ;)

Because, (and luckily they were only second hand Wharfedale Denton's) you'll end up with a nasty staining - an ugly white ring in my case :eyebrows:, where the ex-wife was none too careful about watering her spider plant... That wasn't why she is now the ex-wife, by the way! :lol: No, that was because she turned my amp off once! :(

Alex_UK

22-08-2009, 21:14

Actually, that could be an interesting thread - the worst hi-fi misdemeanours you've suffered - in my case, probably the "thwack" to one of my bass drivers from a Fisher Price something or other... Although I could tell you the story of the demise of an old Dual (503.2?) turntable at my own doing because of the WA(ex)F factor...

Marco

22-08-2009, 21:15

Haha, Alex... Don't worry there'll be no f*cking lamps or plant pots getting near the Lockwoods!!

This is what'll happen to anyone who tries............... :guns: :chainsaw:

:trust:

Marco.

Steve Toy

22-08-2009, 21:19

look at the pics marco. What do you see atop each speaker? <snigger>

Jonboy

22-08-2009, 21:26

As much as i love the speakers Marco, i really think a man in your line of work and with a disserning eye should at least be able to take some decent photo's that don't look like like they have been taken on a mobile phone (perhaps they were)r:ner::ner::ner:

Marco

22-08-2009, 21:38

look at the pics marco. What do you see atop each speaker? <snigger>

Ah... but they're ice-cube globes from Ikea with shpecial properties, for a shpecial case like me :eyebrows:

Jon,

Blame the Toy-boy for the pics - and *that* was supposed to be with his super-duper camera phone! I need someone round with the right tools who knows what they're doing, haha :ner:

I think I'll perhaps leave that to Snapper when he visits on Monday ;)

Marco.

Steve Toy

22-08-2009, 21:52

i was a little short on light or rather it was coming from the wrong places :D

SteveTheShadow

23-08-2009, 12:09

WAF?

Yeah baby

Mozart wafting out of the baffles; dog car and Missus soothed into slumber
by the relaxing toons.

http://homepage.mac.com/scress1958/.Pictures/Bliss.jpg

This is what it's about.
Steve

Mike

23-08-2009, 18:30

I don't see the sleeping 'car'! :eyebrows: :lol:

Macca

23-08-2009, 22:57

I don't see the sleeping 'car'! :eyebrows: :lol:

It's a Gee wizz - parked behind that enourmous 'speaker:lol:

Marco

23-08-2009, 23:12

Hahahahaha... Nice one, Steve! :lolsign:

Marco.

Steve Toy

26-08-2009, 10:11

Lets see Snapper's pics then!

Marco

26-08-2009, 10:16

He hasn't taken any yet, but he will do! As soon as they're ready I'll post them. Right now we're too busy buying records, drinking beer and wandering around town in our slippers... :lol:

Oh, and I've just bought one of these little chaps for copying vinyl to CD:

http://www.dancetech.com/aa_dt_new/hardware/IMAGES/EMU_0202_USB_main.jpg

What fun! :gig:

Marco.

Spectral Morn

26-08-2009, 10:21

Marco

26-08-2009, 10:28

For the car, of course, my boy!! :smoking:

Also, Stevie-boy (and others) will be able to get some top-notch recordings from the Techy of stuff they like that I've got on vinyl :cool:

Marco.

Spectral Morn

26-08-2009, 10:36

For the car, of course, my boy!! :smoking:

Also, Stevie-boy (and others) will be able to get some top-notch recordings from the Techy of stuff they like that I've got on vinyl :cool:

Marco.

I was only joking of course...

The only thing about analogue to digital transfer is the nature of recording level overload. Easy to go analogue to analogue..metal tape allows you to capture all the highs etc and push the tape, whereas digital doesn't go into the red so well, and all you end up with is distortion. You have to listen and monitor the analogue recording in its totality to be able to know the maximum peeks and set recording levels accordingly; to avoid slippage into the red. This is the case with the kit I have. Its for these reasons I won't record albums or tapes for people, as frankly I don't have the patience to do it anymore , even for myself. No doubt there is gear that allows you to get round this issue. Is what you have bought such a device ?

Regards D S D L

Steve Toy

26-08-2009, 11:08

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=67576&page=3

This thread explores the WAF issue rather well. I disagree with the point that Wife Acceptance Factor is sexist for it is a given that this is a male-dominated hobby. Yes there are one or two female hi-fi bobbyists out there some of whom have even had to suffer a male partner not sharing her enthusiasm for getting music reproduction just right at the expense of other requirements in the room, but on the whole WAF = man wants/Woman Has Other Ideas and Gets Her Way.

To opt for the term SAF (Spouse Acceptance Factor) is just excessively politically correct for my tastes and panders to the PC-whistle-blower-apologists-to-the-potentially-offended mentality.

On the internet it is almost impossible not to upset someone and completely impossible not to potentially upset someone. Without being blatantly rude in a way that you'd never dare to someone's face or deliberately cause trouble, I think we can say pretty much what we like here within reason...

This pic was posted on the above thread. Anyone who has a partner objecting to bigger speakers in the room, you could always show her these with a view to buying them instead:

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/1127/notwaf.jpg (http://img193.imageshack.us/i/notwaf.jpg/)