View Full Version : Idle advice on new speakers or general system upgrade....
Hello
I am looking to upgrade the stereo, partly because I know it can be better and partly because I love thinking about better stereos and realise that this is something that I have not done for a long time. Our current system as follows was assembled as being perfect for a flat with poor sound insulation, and also was used as AV stereo with a projector:
Rega Brio 3
Marantz DV4003
Tannoy DC4
http://i.imgur.com/oUdPVtG.jpg
This has been added to with:
Technics SL1210ii (recently rescued from my mother's shed)
Marantz CD6000 OSE Ki (shortly to be rescued from cupboard in Wales)
The room the system is now in is huge - 11x7m with 3.5m ceilings. Stereo is in one half of this room pointing out across the room, if that makes sense. We like to listen to all sorts - from Pablo Casals and Alfred Brendel to Johns Zorn & Coltrane, via Zappa and Gainsbourg
At the risk of a long winded post, here is what I have been thinking - as you can probably see I am thinking too much:
1] Upgrade the speakers as the easiest way forward. The Tannoys are astonishingly good for the size, but clearly lack some bass. Ideally get something rather good that would mean I could maybe upgrade the amp sometime. Options I have considered are:
a. Tannoy DC6 SE new - from Richer sounds for £300
b. Tannoy DC6T SE used - from ebay around £400
c. Rega RS3 used - from ebay around £300 if patient or RS5 even?
d. Some other "bargain" (ie new shiny black Quad 22L2s at £600 from emporium)
e. Something cheap as hell from ebay or elsewhere to have a listen to for a month or so then sell on and repeat.
2] Sell the SL1210ii - I think I can probably get £400 for it on ebay - and use the money to get something else - ie like the CJ55 that sold on here the other day, or some other obscure bargain, or an RP1...
3] Replace amp and CD with Rega Brio-R and Apollo which would mean I could put them on top of each other next to the TT and avoid need for ugly TT piece of furniture. This would probably bring high WAF.
4] A large part of me knows that the Brio 3 is a great amp, but part of me hates it as it has a lumpen look to it and that part of me wants to get something like a Naim or a Croft or something else that is out of my budget but looks gorgeous and has Phono input. I also think that maybe due to the size of the room we probably do need bigger speakers and so a bigger amp. We don't so much want to play music loud as just have it fill the room a bit more and sound amazing when at lower volumes.
Well I think that is probably extremely unhelpful, but it should give you an idea of the confusion and thought direction at the moment. I think I really need comments about speakers for the moment as that is the one sure thing to be done...
Robert
Audio Al
04-02-2015, 19:54
Sell the SL1210ii :eek: What :eek:
If you want proper audio KEEP IT
If you can find any see if you can purchase some Ram 200 speakers these sound very good and are usually cheap ( I have 2 pairs )
Or put your speakers on some decent stands and try them
Its all good fun this Hi Fi malarky :D
Biggest boxes you can for the money in that of size room. My tannoy DC6 don't cook enough beef in my 4x5 metre room
Or put your speakers on some decent stands and try them
Its all good fun this Hi Fi malarky :D
Thumbs up to the "fun" but as much as I love these speakers they are just way too small stands or no stands they ain't got much bass. They would be ideal in a very posh 5.1 system, not so much as hi-fi. But where they are good, they do sing beautifully with some recordings, which is why I am looking at bigger Tannoys for a possible upgrade. Plus they are very pretty and my other half likes the look of the DCs a lot.
RE the SL1210 all I have found says that they can sound wonderful if you spend £1000 or so on them, but I sadly don't have that kind of money to spend. I do kind of like it though, but if I can get a different deck and so realise £100 or so in price difference to put towards a better amp or pair of speakers, then alls good. Plus I have a new deck to play with and an excuse to change it again down the line. Saying that it sounds like you know about the 1210 - what can I do to it to make it sound better without spending a load? [maybe a FUNK ACHROMAT?]
R
Biggest boxes you can for the money in that of size room. My tannoy DC6 don't cook enough beef in my 4x5 metre room
Is that the stand mounts? I think you are probably right, although even the DC6 SEs would be an improvement over what I have now.
Do you think the DC6T SE would be enough?
The more I think about it the more it starts seeming inevitable that I am going to need more AMP.
Another problem is that although the room is large, the speakers will have to go pretty close to the wall - ie the *front* of the cabinets cannot really be more than 50cm from the wall [I think that the Rega RS series might be good here as they have front ports, is that correct?] I think I am also limited to height of about 95cm due to WAF.
R
Gordon Steadman
04-02-2015, 20:11
Is that the stand mounts? I think you are probably right, although even the DC6 SEs would be an improvement over what I have now.
Do you think the DC6T SE would be enough?
The more I think about it the more it starts seeming inevitable that I am going to need more AMP.
If you get big efficient speakers - not necessarily.
Audio Al
04-02-2015, 20:12
Does the 1210 run OK , speeds OK , arm all good ?
If yes to the above use it as it is or put a decent cartridge on the arm , use a amp with a built in phono stage , Thats assuming you have some vinyl
I have a full blown 1210 MK11 with just about every mod you can have , needles to say I am very happy ;)
Does the 1210 run OK , speeds OK , arm all good ?
If yes to the above use it as it is or put a decent cartridge on the arm , use a amp with a built in phono stage , Thats assuming you have some vinyl
Immaculate v light use deck but it just packed in last week [stop/start button wasn't working as it should, then finally it just stopped spinning] and a man is coming to have a look at it tomorrow and reckons he can get it back up to speed for £50... Annoyingly when I bought it 12 years ago or so I went to buy a new cartridge for it and ended up with a fancy concorde nightclub S on it, which was probably not the best use of my money. As I understand it the Elliptical one would be better, but still not best I could do with the TT. I still have the Technics head in a drawer so could put a different cart in it - any recommendations?
And yes Brio 3 has phono stage and I have about 4 metres of vinyl, about half of which is very nice indeed.
http://www.djdeals.co.uk/prod-downloads/Ortofon-Concorde-Nightclub-.jpg
Audio Al
04-02-2015, 20:40
Thats annoying , It will be fixable
The Ram200 speakers are sealed boxes and will go against the wall OK
Is your amp a MC or MM phono stage ?
I would look at B&W, Q Acoustics or EPOS for that money. You can get a home demo on any new speakers before you buy .The mark up on new gear is quite high. I would expect to pick a pair of B&W 685 S2 for £400 new with a home demo if you trade a few places off against each other. Get lots of home demos before you purchase so you get it right. I think port position is not much of an issue. Tannoy DC6 are rear firing but weak on bass. B&W 685 are front firing but strong on bass. The low energy is dispersed around the cabinet and not from the port. The port is for tuning.
All new speakers are efficient so will work with your amp.
You can get a hellava lot of used speaker for £400. Am sure some of the seasoned legends on here will help you out in that direction :)
Is your amp a MC or MM phono stage ?
I am pretty sure that the Brio is MM. Still I am tempted by the price I see 1210s fetching on ebay to cash it in and get something less "DJ-tastic". (I am even tempted to buy yours at £240 and flip them on ebay for a lot more...)
You can get a hellava lot of used speaker for £400. Am sure some of the seasoned legends on here will help you out in that direction :)
Yes I have seen the modified Rega Juras for sale but am worried that they might be difficult to get the money back if I didn't like them as ebay only seems to understand unmodded ones at £100-150. Also they might be a bit ugly for WAF... The Tannoy DC6Ts should have way more bass than the straight DC6, plus they would probably meet the decor factor, which is an important factor...
R
R
Keep the technics whatever you may do.
Maybe spend 100quid on a better cartridge and headshell. Keep your eyes peeled here for a second hand bargain.
I used to have rs3 speakers and I expect they'll work nicely with your amp if you enjoy the Rega sound. I now have rs5 and whilst they do bigger scale and more bass I'd say the 3 is the more 'balanced' speaker and dare I say more musical. Whether they're enough for your room is anotheranother question. They can get a bit shouty if you push em hard. You'll only really know by hearing them.
Like others have said, stuff comes up here all the time. Stay patient, keep your eyes open and something good will come up!
Maybe spend 100quid on a better cartridge and headshell. Keep your eyes peeled here for a second hand bargain.
There seems to be a lot of love here for the 1210, eh?
I think I can probably sell the Ortofon for £30-50 on ebay, so maybe I should just do that and put it towards something better.
Would the original Technics headshell that came with the TT be okay to put a new cartridge on?
If anyone could point me to a site where I can find out about this please let me know - or if you just want to save time and say "Get X Y or Z" that would be even better.
Is setting up a new cartridge easy? The concorde is just plug and play, which is good, but I think what you are suggesting is more intricate?
I have read so often that Rega speakers sound great with Rega amps, so maybe I should just look out for some 3 or 5s...? Saying that I do like the whole game of hi-fi and going Rega/Rega takes some of the fun out of it. Also I would then feel locked in to Rega amps and I do like the look of those Croft integrateds...
But, one step at a time and as I have said the speakers come first (though I can allow for some 1210 fettling alongside that) then after we have enjoyed the jump in quality for a while, then we cna look at amps. Seems a shame to just get one big upgrade when you can do it in stages, eh?
R
RE the SL1210 all I have found says that they can sound wonderful if you spend £1000 or so on them, but I sadly don't have that kind of money to spend.
what can I do to it to make it sound better without spending a load?
R
Robert
You are in luck. The great thing, or rather one of the great things, about the SL1200 family is 'upgrade-ability'. Some upgrades are cheap, some are expensive, some in between, and some you have to get your hands dirty. If you are prepared to do the cheap upgrades and the DIY upgrades you can get yourself 90% of the way for cheaps.
The single best upgrade you can do is the 'Isonoe Feet'. They are not expensive and are the best bang-for-buck upgrade you can do. The platter and the power supply can both be diy jobs. There are DIY platter upgrade threads (mine) and Externalizing the Power supply threads on the Techipedia. Next you can service the Techie yourself. Open it up from the top. There are heaps of Youtube clips on this, especially by a chappie called Viperfrank. When you have opened it, give it a clean, then treat every connection with Caigs Deoxit, then take out the bearing and give a clean and reoil with a good quality motor oil. Also check out the thrustpad and the bottom of the shaft that rests on the thrustpad. If they are worn a new bearing can be obtained for £30.00 or so. Get rid of the dreadful mat. If you cant bring yourself to do the platter upgrade then this is another area where you should be prepared to chuck a few quid. Get a cheap record weight - I favour the Michell Clamp as it gives lots of grip without adding weight to the bearing. Some people swear by their headshells and I have thrown a few hundy that way but not for much benefit to be honest. Another upgrade that will require a few £ is the tonearm wiring - both the internal (Headshell to internal PCP) and external (Internal pcb to amp).
The nice thing though is that you can do these one at a time. Anyway look through the history of the Techipedia subform and you will find lots of ideas.
If you are prepared to do the cheap upgrades and the DIY upgrades you can get yourself 90% of the way for cheaps.
Hi Andrei - thanks I appreciate your enthusiasm for the 1210, I really do but I am not sure that I can follow the route. After reading your reply I have spent a couple of hours looking at a few upgrade videos and whilst nothing looks so difficult that I wouldn't be happy to try .... some fairly brief googling has thrown up some prices:
Isonoe feet - £100
PSU - £200?
Rewire - £100 for kit - plus a soldering iron
Achromat - £70
Clamp - £30
Already we are at £500 and I didn't even get a new headshell (£40?) or cartridge (min£80?), which brings me up to £620 - [lets call it £600 for selling my concorde...]
Now, I would be happy to service the TT myself but right now I find myself with a deck that does not spin, and a man who says he can fix it for under £50 turning up hopefully tomorrow night. A service and a diagnosis/fix are quite different I think.
If we take that £600 and add it to the say £350+ I could probably get for the just serviced TT that leaves me £950 to spend on a turntable...
The reality is that I can't afford the £600 and so won't be looking at a £1K deck. I can maybe stretch to a new cartridge... but I am really still wondering what kind of delight I could maybe pick up for maybe £300 used.
R
:violin:
There's a lot of love for the Technics hereabouts but you're right, its not the only answer. For your budget there's plenty of alternatives of which that CJ55 was a very nice example. You should be able to stretch to one of the non-Linn 70's/80's belt drives such as the Walker, my favourite Heybrook or Systemdec, or for a more left-field alternative look for an idler-drive from Lenco or one of the Duals. The belt drives will give you rhythmic coherance, sweetness and nuance, while the idlers will give you drive and slam (this is a monstrous over-simplification, by the way).
Don't forget also that Technics wweren't the only direct drive Jap turnatables. There are some very good Pioneers, Rotels, Yamahas etc out there that are excellent but don't have quite the cachet of the Technics, so don't attract the same price premium. Sadly, there's a fair bit of dross in this area as well, so caution is needed!
A quick trawl throuugh ebay brought up this lot in the first couple of pages. Any of them would be fun, and I still had another 4000 listings to look through!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Systemdek-llX-Rega-RB250-/261759361087?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item3cf212e03f
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Goldring-Lenco-GL-75-Record-Player-Swiss-Turntable-Shure-M55E-Cartridge-/251812927817?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item3aa1385949
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Michell-Mycro-Vintage-Turntable-Record-Player-Deck-Original-Mains-Adaptor-/251818148715?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item3aa188036b
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Acoustic-Research-classic-high-grade-stereo-record-player-turntable-/281576650782?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item418f46b81e
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-PS-4750-DIRECT-DRIVE-turntable-/221678745259?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item339d1536ab
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CJ-Walker-CJ55-Excellent-condition-/271758876903?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item3f461760e7
Gordon Steadman
05-02-2015, 09:03
There's a lot of love for the Technics hereabouts but you're right, its not the only answer. For your budget there's plenty of alternatives of which that CJ55 was a very nice example. You should be able to stretch to one of the non-Linn 70's/80's belt drives such as the Walker, my favourite Heybrook or Systemdec, or for a more left-field alternative look for an idler-drive from Lenco or one of the Duals. The belt drives will give you rhythmic coherance, sweetness and nuance, while the idlers will give you drive and slam (this is a monstrous over-simplification, by the way).
Don't forget also that Technics wweren't the only direct drive Jap turnatables. There are some very good Pioneers, Rotels, Yamahas etc out there that are excellent but don't have quite the cachet of the Technics, so don't attract the same price premium. Sadly, there's a fair bit of dross in this area as well, so caution is needed!
Indeed, however, it's sort of true -ish. My favourite deck is a Dual idler drive. Technology that was written off as noisy and crap. Well it ain't. I paid €50 for mine and it outperforms my Origin Live based TT in nearly every respect. Its dead quiet, has rock solid speed consistency (7.5lb platter helps) does real bass and the rest is pretty good too.
Shane has it right, don't get hung up on one make because it is popular here.
Isonoe feet - £100
PSU - £200?
Rewire - £100 for kit - plus a soldering iron
Achromat - £70
Clamp - £30
Don't be discouraged. The PSU is almost a freebie. There is a thread somewhere to the effect that what you are doing is not so much purchasing a power supply but taking it out of the turntable. Thereby you are getting rid of the transformer hum.
The Achromat is a goodie, and I have one but apparently the Resomat is even better, and costs something like £20. (Incidentally with the resomat you cannot use a clamp). The Isonoe feet - well it is just worth it. The other thing to bear in mind is that you can do these one at a time. The 1200 is good to go out of the box and you can start off with one tweak, and then next month or so do another. Maybe leave the rewire altogether, and in a year or so plonk in a Jelco tonearm. I did the rewire thing for a modest improvement but then lost the benefit of that when I replaced the tonearm.
There seems to be a lot of love here for the 1210, eh?
I think I can probably sell the Ortofon for £30-50 on ebay, so maybe I should just do that and put it towards something better.
Would the original Technics headshell that came with the TT be okay to put a new cartridge on?
If anyone could point me to a site where I can find out about this please let me know - or if you just want to save time and say "Get X Y or Z" that would be even better.
Is setting up a new cartridge easy? The concorde is just plug and play, which is good, but I think what you are suggesting is more intricate?
I have read so often that Rega speakers sound great with Rega amps, so maybe I should just look out for some 3 or 5s...? Saying that I do like the whole game of hi-fi and going Rega/Rega takes some of the fun out of it. Also I would then feel locked in to Rega amps and I do like the look of those Croft integrateds...
But, one step at a time and as I have said the speakers come first (though I can allow for some 1210 fettling alongside that) then after we have enjoyed the jump in quality for a while, then we cna look at amps. Seems a shame to just get one big upgrade when you can do it in stages, eh?
R
I know what you mean about it not being very 'hifi' but if you can get some rs3 for 300quid then it will give you a lot of enjoyment with your amp.
The stock headshell isn't that bad and there's plenty cartridge choices under 100quid.
Also some good advice from Andrei here, some of which I'll be trying myself over the coming months.
Don't be discouraged. The PSU is almost a freebie. There is a thread somewhere to the effect that what you are doing is not so much purchasing a power supply but taking it out of the turntable. Thereby you are getting rid of the transformer hum.
The Achromat is a goodie, and I have one but apparently the Resomat is even better, and costs something like £20.
I have to admit defeat searching the Techipedia forum for a definitive PSU thread. I would certainly be up for doing something if it was very cheap, but that forum I find is really hard to search. The reso-mat (£35 delivered) is also interesting and makes me wonder if you couldn't come up with something DIY for a few pence, maybe using an old LP as the mat with something stuck on similarly to the reso cones. I am guessing that you guys have probably thought about this already?
The feet will have to wait - as it is I am not sure where the deck is going to live. Would putting it on a granite slab or similar alleviate the need for the feet? I actually have a rather nice old black granite [?] kitchen worktop that could be cut down to make a rather nice shelf/mat.
I have also been having a look at cartridges and it seems that they get really expensive, really quickly. I notice KAB do a cartridge for teh Technics which look exactly like my Ortofon Concorde - Does anyone have an opinion on whether it would be good to just put an Ortofon OM10[£40] or OM20[£120] onto my Concorde set-up? (I think my budget runs out above that, and probably finds it hard to justify the 20 just at the moment!) Maybe there is something special about the KAB one, but if it is purely all about the needle then would that work, or would spending same amount on a regular cart get better sound?
//EDIT
Then I just found this JICO CONCORDE30 (http://stylus.export-japan.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=59&products_id=726). Does anyone here have any experience with this one? It's cheap and is going to certainly be an upgrade on my spherical nightclub hammer I am guessing.
//EDIT
Otherwise what are your best recommendations for a new cartridge that would fit on the standard Technics headshell, lets say for under £100, or close to it?
I am slowly learning about this forum - I think I need to keep questions to ONE SUBJECT. This thread was originally hoping for speaker advice, and now is really just talking about the TT, which is fine. In future I shall keep questions separate.
Thanks for all the responses so far.
Robert
I have to admit defeat searching the Techipedia forum for a definitive PSU thread. I would certainly be up for doing something if it was very cheap, but that forum I find is really hard to search. The reso-mat (£35 delivered) is also interesting and makes me wonder if you couldn't come up with something DIY for a few pence, maybe using an old LP as the mat with something stuck on similarly to the reso cones. I am guessing that you guys have probably thought about this already?
The feet will have to wait - as it is I am not sure where the deck is going to live. Would putting it on a granite slab or similar alleviate the need for the feet? I actually have a rather nice old black granite [?] kitchen worktop that could be cut down to make a rather nice shelf/mat.
I have also been having a look at cartridges and it seems that they get really expensive, really quickly. I notice KAB do a cartridge for teh Technics which look exactly like my Ortofon Concorde - Does anyone have an opinion on whether it would be good to just put an Ortofon OM10[£40] or OM20[£120] onto my Concorde set-up? (I think my budget runs out above that, and probably finds it hard to justify the 20 just at the moment!) Maybe there is something special about the KAB one, but if it is purely all about the needle then would that work, or would spending same amount on a regular cart get better sound?
Otherwise what are your best recommendations for a new cartridge that would fit on the standard Technics headshell, lets say for under £100, or close to it?
I am slowly learning about this forum - I think I need to keep questions to ONE SUBJECT. This thread was originally hoping for speaker advice, and now is really just talking about the TT, which is fine. In future I shall keep questions separate.
Thanks for all the responses so far.
Robert
Here is the PSU thread - a bit scary I must admit :) http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?26620-SL-1200-DC-Power-Supply-DIY (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?26620-SL-1200-DC-Power-Supply-DIY&highlight=power+supply)
Platter thread http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29662-DIY-Platter
Cartridge: go to http://www.referencefidelitycomponents.co.uk/shop/nagaoka-phono-cartridges/ and check out Nagaoka!
A Granite slab is a modest help - something to do with the mass I believe, and I use one myself. The object is to remove / ameliorate external vibration. It really does not matter how its done. The Isonoe feet are a convenient and very effective method. Once I heard a REga RP3 turntable sound fantastic: the reason is that it was in a separate room, away for the airborne vibration of the speakers.
Your home-made mat idea is interesting! Worth a go! Maybe some small pods of sorbothane would do the trick??
The Nagaoka MP110 works well on a stock Technics and will give you a more refined sound than your nightclub cart whilst keeping some of the 'balls' to the sound.
Thanks for the links Andrei I will have a look.
The Nagaoka MP110 works well on a stock Technics and will give you a more refined sound than your nightclub cart whilst keeping some of the 'balls' to the sound.
Will the MP110:
1. be much better than an Ortofon 20 on the end of my concorde?
2. happily fit the standard Technics headshell?
As it comes down to cost really, anything with the Technics headshell has a c£30 headstart if I sell the concorde cart on ebay. Saying that, I do like the ease of cueing up a track with the concorde nose, and also fact that there is no need for any pissing about with setting it up.
I suspect it will be better but better is subjective so can't say for certain you will agree with me. I'm recommending it because I have one and I know from experience it works well on the Technics.
It will work fine in the standard Technics head shell but you should consider a better head shell too. Get a Technics alignment gauge (about a fiver on eBay) makes setting it up correctly pretty easy.
The Nagoaka looks interestingly priced and people seem to like it.
I have also found a Grado Gold open box for £98.
But the Ortofon 10 or 20 stylus on my concorde is suuuch an easy option....
andrasszamek
08-02-2015, 10:34
i might get stoned for saying this but even though the sl1200 IS a sweet deck, with the current prices you are better of selling it for a load of cash and getting a project debut if you want new or a used thorens td160 if you want vintage. the 200 bucks you save, you can use to extent your speaker budget to 600. if you are willing to tip your toes in computer audio (and have a laptop already) you might get better sound with a dac instead of a CDP (no spinning plastic). used musical fidelity v-dac II (140 gbp) or new AQ dragonfly or something. i think it probably makes sense to get the best speakers you can afford (setting up new speakers if a hassle you dont want every six months), if you can stretch your budget to 750 (from the 600), the PSB X1Ts are really really good and probably would fill your room nicely. they might even work with your current amp quite decently until you figure out what amp you want. NAD (even the cheapest) is great match with PSB. lot of fun.
Thanks Andras. I think this is nice advice and I might take my time to decide what to do about the turntable.
Meanwhile I have seen a pair of Spendor A5s at £600.
andrasszamek
08-02-2015, 14:45
i have not heard that one unfortunately.
This thread petered out a little and maybe got a little distracted with my 1210, but I thought some of you might want to know that I am about to pull the trigger on a pair of PMC GB1s.
Not the i or the + just the basic original GB1, and at what I think is a pretty good price which should mean I can flip them back on eBay at little or no loss if they don't kick it.
So before I do this tomorrow has anyone got any words of warning, or better still, strong words of encouragement.
:guitar:
I will listen to them first, and am wondering whether to take along my Brio-3 or just do it through a Brio-R that they have there. In my mind they are already purchased though (which is tempting fate I know).
R
andrasszamek
13-02-2015, 13:02
I would take the brio-3 with me.
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