View Full Version : SL1210Mk2 Buzz/Distortion Advice - it's doing mi nut in!
Hi all,
I'm looking for some advice help please on a troublesome issue I've discovered with my techie TT setup.
So after getting my setup the best sounding it's ever been, I've started to notice a certain amount of distortion/buzz in what appears to be left channel. Only noticeable in odd tracks. Noticed especially on audio featuring brass instruments and even more pronounced in horns. Bizarrely noticed when listening to recently acquired Ted Heath Band record (not usually my thing). I don't think I've heard it before as it's probably been masked with either acoustics of previous house or possibly speaker setup etc etc. now everything is singing properly it's possibly become more pronounced And suddenly noticeable.
Tried swapping speaker channels to rule those out - problem follows the left channel... So not the amp/speakers.
Setup:-
SL1210 Mk2
PSU externalised as per J K Wynns excellent thread
Ortofon 2M Bronze MM Cart
Sumiko Headshell
Firebottle MM Plus Phonostage
Funk Achromat
Onkyo tx-nr509
tannoy profile 632 on stands
So, thinking my setup may have gone slightly out I re-did everything:-
General turntable base levelled, Isone feet adjusted accordingly
Level checked at all 360 degrees on platter - Bob on
Cart overhang setup in headshell using technics gauge - spot on prob to within .5mm
Cart setup using J K Wynn technics protractor which has always been the preferred one as could never get accurate results with ANY other
Arm re-balanced to 0 then stylus tracking force set at very nearly exactly 1.5g using digital stylus gauge
Azimuth of headshell checked and adjusted to perfect using mini bubble level (countering its weight)
VTA checked and adjusted again with bubble level and Bob-on across swing of tonearm on a record
Anti-skate setup as best as possible using track 6 (Bias Setting - Anti-Skate) on Hi-Fi News test record - but this is where the problems start....
When checked with new Hi-Fi News test LP, the buzz/distortion is really evident on the first Bias setting track - I get the ramp up in volume of the test tone and just before it reaches its peak the buzzing starts. The tone is clear for the first 1/2 sec ish.... and the best I can get the anti skate is so that the buzz is image centre (actually matches tracking weight of cart - 1.8), but I can't eliminate the buzz at all no matter what I try - anti skate, VTA adjustment up or down, more tracking force, less tracking force. Basically at the stage of trying anything. Done right, This track should be clear and just a test tone @300hz +12db.
So is it the cart? - No, tried swapping to my 2m Red in original technics headshell, maticulously going through the setup again - but same thing to same or similar degree of buzz/distortion.
The fact I'm getting this buzz/distortion on the first bias track on the test record tells me something is very wrong. Am I right in thinking most carts should pass this one easy?
Also noted I can actually hear the buzz if my ear is up close to the cart on the track 6 with everything bar the TT switched off so defo not anything past the TT.
Going back to a few records and the buzz on very specific tracks on albums by various artists is still there and damned annoying - not in ya face, but subtle and comes and goes as per the material, but boy do I notice it now!
Now I'm kinda stuck not knowing where to go from here.....
Sounds like a problem with the wires in tonearm or the headshell may have a fault. Have you tried a different headshell?
walpurgis
02-02-2015, 23:45
Some cartridges can be sensitive to hum with DD turntables. Are the left channel terminals on your cartridge nearest the turntable centre and therefore nearest the motor?
I had problems years ago with hum, using Decca carts and a DD TT.
Its not an electrical hum or interference - the best way i can describe it is a sonic buzz/distortion in very certain frequencies or specific parts of an audio track - more noticeable in loud brass horn parts
The 2m red cart i have spare was on a different headshell so not that either i'm afraid.
walpurgis
03-02-2015, 00:07
Your description sounds like it could be mistracking. Recheck azimuth, VTA and alignment and try upping the downforce to the max recommended for the cart. Make sure there's no dirt on the diamond tip.
By the way, brass content in music is prone to showing up mistracking.
Checked and rechecked many times, vta and azimuth are as perfect as is possible and cart is running at 1.5g as per ortofon spec, could run heavier eg 1.8 as recommended for the 2m red, but concious of running out of spec for cart, sholdnt really have to..
walpurgis
03-02-2015, 10:13
Well, if setup is correct, I suppose the only other things to consider are possible binding or resistance in arm movement (tight or poorly routed wiring, arm bearings), a resonance set up in the record (try a different mat), or records that need cleaning.
Occasionally, you just get an arm/cartridge/headshell combination that just won't work together, but I'd have expected the Ortofon to be OK in your arrangement.
Is the arm clearing the arm lift?
Is the anti-skate actually working?
When the arm is balanced out does it pass the tissue paper test IE is it free to move across the record with just a folded over tissue brushed against the headshell? Set anti-skate to zero.
With no anti-skate applied does the arm sit at or move towards the centre of the record when balanced out as above?
Arm is clearing the lift
Not sure i get what you mean about the tissue paper test - do you mean balance it out (so the arm is balanced level so effectively 0 tracking force), set anti-skate to 0 then bush with tissue?
Anti-skate must work as at about 1.8 on a blank un-grooved part of the Hi-Fi test record, i can get it to stay where it is without skating to the middle or off the outside edge.
With the right tracking force and the anti-skate set to 0 the arm moves to the outside edge of the record.
Nothing i've tried seems to make any difference - even tried swapping the Achromat with the stock rubber mat, no difference. Already tried different cart & headshell (2m Red) so pretty sure not the cart. Tried playing around with VTA height, no change. Tried increasing tracking force, no change.
I am right in thinking that most TT setups should be able to pass the first Bias test on the Hi-Fi test recorrd - more specifically be able to produce a clear test tone with no distortion/buzzing?? I'm aware of the "torture track" but at this stage i can't even get the first band to work without distortion.
One thought i did have is I also have a donor deck in bits (its' identical twin) with a spare stock techie Arm so i could try swapping the arm in my current deck? (although quite a bit of work).
Also another thought was - if i'm doing that, is it worth doing an arm-rewire for £100 from MCRU whilst i have the arm out?? (have been thinking about this for a while)
This one:-
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/vinyl-essentials/800-tone-arm-re-wiring-kit-for-technics-sl12001210.html
(I can't afford a new arm - really wish i could but can only about justify the cost of a re-wire of the stock arm)
Are the Isokinetik re-wires any good?
Answers on a forum postcard gratefully accepted.
Clive197
04-02-2015, 15:22
On reading through all the posts on this thread, my conclusion points to the arm or worn/damaged stylus. The 2M Bronze should certainly pass the first and second bias tests with ease.
If you got the arm rewired it may be possible to check the bearings. The clue could point to the blank test on the test record. The arm doesn't move which suggests sticky bearing as even with bias correctly set you would normally get some movement. That test has always had issues and should not be relied on.
Is the cartridge new?
MikeMusic
04-02-2015, 15:29
Just in case
I had a similar problem I could not fix
Eventually used high magnification and found a tiny hair which seemed to be *stuck* on the stylus
With some work I took it off and AOK
....
Not sure i get what you mean about the tissue paper test - do you mean balance it out (so the arm is balanced level so effectively 0 tracking force), set anti-skate to 0 then bush with tissue?
Yes, really just a sanity check that the bearings are free and the arm is not sticking. You seem to have eliminated everything I would have checked save for perhaps trying the cartridge on a different deck which if worked out OK would point the finger at the tone arm....
Just in case
I had a similar problem I could not fix
Eventually used high magnification and found a tiny hair which seemed to be *stuck* on the stylus
With some work I took it off and AOK
I have heard of a similar problem - A tiny bit of gunk getting stuck to the stylus. A good stylus cleaning should not in any event do any harm.
Thanks for the replies....
On reading through all the posts on this thread, my conclusion points to the arm or worn/damaged stylus. The 2M Bronze should certainly pass the first and second bias tests with ease.
If you got the arm rewired it may be possible to check the bearings. The clue could point to the blank test on the test record. The arm doesn't move which suggests sticky bearing as even with bias correctly set you would normally get some movement. That test has always had issues and should not be relied on.
Is the cartridge new?
The 2m Bronze is about 6months old with about 50-60hours use, the 2m Red about 12months old with about 150hours use so can't see either of those being the issue due to their age/use plus the problem exists with both carts.
The arm moves freely - no sticking anywhere i can feel and certainly no suggestion of bearing issue/play. The arm doesn't move on the blank section on the test record as i've set the bias/anti-skate at 1.5 so it doesn't as per instructions, reduce it on the blank bit and arm moves towards center, increase it and it moves towards edge of record so proves the anti-skate system is working.
Only reason i mentioned the re-wire is i've got the option of the other identical arm so would be removing current arm to do the job, feels right to do there and then whilst it's out?
Anyone used the MCRU/Isokinetik arm-rewire kit? Any good/worth the upgrade from stock arm-wire for £99?
My only hesitation with the spare arm is it's an unknown quantity. Visually seems ok but I've never used it - I stripped it down from the poorer deck when i got them both as i needed the arm rest to replace the broken one on the better of the two decks.
I'll try the magnification option, you never know.
Am i safe to sling the removeable stylus from the 2m Bronze in an ultrasonic bath? (i have one)...
walpurgis
04-02-2015, 21:49
I'd not use an ultrasonic bath myself. I wouldn't want fluid in the cantilever tube (if it's tubular) due to possible contaminants and corrosion and I'd also be concerned with dislodging the diamond stylus tip.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SRM-TECH-STYLUS-CLEANING-KIT-BEST-AVAILABLE-/331465732460?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d2ce5b16c
This is the best fluid I've used for cleaning stilii
If we talking about the cleaning of stylii, then the method I use is to place ONE drop of pure isopropyl alcohol onto the carbon fibre bristle pad of an electronic stylus cleaner (mine's made by Goldring), lower the stylus in place and 'buzz' for 5 seconds. Never had a problem, and any stubborn 'grot' is easily removed.
If you regularly use a record cleaning machine, you will find the stylus rarely becomes dirty. Just use a brush to remove any fluff that may have fallen on the record whilst it was being played.
Clive197
05-02-2015, 11:22
If we talking about the cleaning of stylii, then the method I use is to place ONE drop of pure isopropyl alcohol onto the carbon fibre bristle pad of an electronic stylus cleaner (mine's made by Goldring), lower the stylus in place and 'buzz' for 5 seconds. Never had a problem, and any stubborn 'grot' is easily removed.
If you regularly use a record cleaning machine, you will find the stylus rarely becomes dirty. Just use a brush to remove any fluff that may have fallen on the record whilst it was being played.
I have just received a newsletter from Origin Live. Subject: Stylus Cleaning. Mark Baker advises NEVER use Isopropyl Alchol as it tends to affect the glue holding the diamond to the cantilever. He goes on to suggest various fluids including a fluid made by LAST. Also the Dust Buster. I use both of these. The Dust Buster is used after each session and the Last fluid about once a month used sparingly with a carbon fibre brush. Records are handled very carefully and wiped before and after each side.
I have just received a newsletter from Origin Live. Subject: Stylus Cleaning. Mark Baker advises NEVER use Isopropyl Alchol as it tends to affect the glue holding the diamond to the cantilever. He goes on to suggest various fluids including a fluid made by LAST. Also the Dust Buster. I use both of these. The Dust Buster is used after each session and the Last fluid about once a month used sparingly with a carbon fibre brush. Records are handled very carefully and wiped before and after each side.
Interesting, seeing that virtually all stylus cleaning fluids are largely composed of isopropyl alcohol. Isopropyl alcohol is too mild a solvent to affect the glue holding the stylus on the cantilever. I have use the method I described on at least a dozen cartridges over some twenty years and NEVER encountered any problems.
If you regularly use a record cleaning machine, you will find the stylus rarely becomes dirty.
...and that's the whole point. Just don't play dirty records in the first place - simples.
Remove the problem 'at source' by employing the use of an RCM, ensuring that your records are kept free from any 'grot' and pristinely clean, thus negating the need to clean the stylus at all. Therefore, the 'best' stylus cleaner is in fact, none! ;)
In my experience, it's best to 'bother' the stylus as little as possible, so contact applied to it with any form of solvents or brushing should be kept to a minimum. That, along with only playing clean records that are in good condition, will not only prolong the life of the stylus, but minimise on any 'unfortunate accidents'...
A bit of light surface dust (no more than that) on the record playing surface is nothing to be concerned about, on an otherwise clean record, as the stylus will simply 'push' that aside and happily get on with its job of tracking the record grooves, without any sound degradation occurring whatsoever. Attempting to brush that dust off will only result in applying a static charge to the record surface, which not only will cause its own problems, but deteriorate sound quality.
Therefore, my advice would be to keep your records meticulously clean and look after them, and leave your stylus, as much as possible, well alone. Let's be frank too, no serious vinyl music aficionado, with a decent sized record collection, should be without an RCM, so if you follow my advice, both your records and stylii will last for a very long time indeed, and in the process the music you play will sound superb! :)
Marco.
Clive197
05-02-2015, 14:21
Interesting, seeing that virtually all stylus cleaning fluids are largely composed of isopropyl alcohol. Isopropyl alcohol is too mild a solvent to affect the glue holding the stylus on the cantilever. I have use the method I described on at least a dozen cartridges over some twenty years and NEVER encountered any problems.
Actually Isopropyl alcohol was/is a common base of record cleaning product not stylus cleaning products. Audio Technica also make the same comment re Isopropyl, maybe to sell its own cleaning fluid but I have read this too many times to totally ignore it.
If you are only using one drop of Isopropyl and it's very mild than it may be safe but are you doing enough to clean the stylus. Once again today I'm agreeing with Marco, keeping the record clean is always a good starting point.
Once again today I'm agreeing with Marco...
You'd better stop it, as you're starting to worry me! :D
;)
Marco.
In all seriousness, you want to get to the stage where your whole record collection is nice and clean and in good condition, so that all you're doing is slipping records out of their anti-static bags, dust-free, popping them onto the platter, and playing music - leaving the stylus well alone!
:exactly:
Marco.
Actually Isopropyl alcohol was/is a common base of record cleaning product not stylus cleaning products. Audio Technica also make the same comment re Isopropyl, maybe to sell its own cleaning fluid but I have read this too many times to totally ignore it.
If you are only using one drop of Isopropyl and it's very mild than it may be safe but are you doing enough to clean the stylus. Once again today I'm agreeing with Marco, keeping the record clean is always a good starting point.
Well the stylus cleaning fluid (as used by Grant, mentioned above) contains isopropyl alcohol: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SRM-TECH-STYLUS-CLEANING-KIT-BEST-AVAILABLE-/331465732460?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d2ce5b16c&clk_rvr_id=775623904357&afsrc=1&rmvSB=true, so I would assume most others do.
If stylii are glued onto the cantilever with either epoxy or cyanoacrylate glue, it will take something a lot stronger than isoproyl alcohol to soften the glue: you need to use acetone or methylene chloride. It might be possible that IPA could affect the rubber used for the cantilever suspension, but unless you are clumsy the cleaning fluid shouldn't get anywhere near the suspension.
I have never compared the results of cleaning stylii with an electronic cleaner with or without a drop of IPA on the pad, but I don't think it can do any harm.
As I said in my first reply, and supported by others, if you use an RCM regularly you shouldn't need to clean the stylus that often. I probably only clean my stylus once a year!
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