Slatedeck (Garrard) Armboard Advice.

[DarrenHW]

By a series of very fortunate events this weekend I picked up another Garrard 401 mounted in a 30mm Slatedeck Single Layer plinth. I say a series of fortunate events as a week ago I'd never even heard of Slatedeck, whilst trying to establish the weight limit of my Target TT Shelf I found this thread (http://www.world-designs.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=2454), which led onto this review (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0107/slatedeck.htm), which was followed by a response from an eBay seller who had a "Garrard 401 on 30mm Welsh Slate" auction running that the plinth was a Slatedeck (I should point out that I didn't ask if it was a Slatedeck). Why they didn't mention this is the thread I have no idea but either way I won the auction and collected yesterday :).

http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u606/drtwas/IMG_4786_zps9528f42a.jpg (http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/drtwas/media/IMG_4786_zps9528f42a.jpg.html)

However it would seem that the armboard supplied is not an original Slatedeck as it should look like the one on the above linked thread or the one shown in post #10 of this thread http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?14463-Garrard-301-Plinth, this is what I have:

http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u606/drtwas/IMG_4790_zps2bd214d7.jpg (http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/drtwas/media/IMG_4790_zps2bd214d7.jpg.html)

This came with some 15mm screws which somehow relate to this :scratch:

http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u606/drtwas/IMG_4788_zpsb6c3d4ae.jpg (http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/drtwas/media/IMG_4788_zpsb6c3d4ae.jpg.html)

The previous owner had silicone'd the armboard to the plinth.

My thought now is to drill through the plinth and bolt the armboard down, good idea or not?

My thinking here is that I can either bolt the armboard directly to the plinth or decouple it with some sort of gasket or washer and that I have to do something to keep it in place.

Further to this I think I'll copy what was done in the WAD thread above but instead of block board have another piece of slate cut to sit on the Target shelf spikes and use 3 Trans-Fi turntable feet between the two layers of slate (I have just enough clearance).

Grateful for any thoughts.

[The Barbarian]

When you get bord with it Daz

:eyebrows:

[Spectral Morn]

North West Analogue would be the people to ask I think

http://www.northwestanalogue.com/



Regards Neil

[The Barbarian]

That's done it im getting another '401' :eyebrows:

[Ali Tait]

:D

[The Barbarian]

No Slate tho always Low Mass plinth for me..

:sofa:

[Ali Tait]

I like mine in slate..

[Spectral Morn]

I would just like to be able to try one :)

[The Barbarian]

Never herd a bottom end portrayed like a '401'..

[DiveDeepDog]

I drilled my slate and glued threaded inserts in so the arm board can be bolted down. Short M3 or M4 is sufficient. It saves having long bolts though the plinth.
I use 10mm perspex with mine.

Good bidding, I kicked myself when I missed the end of that auction.

If you were a bit close Neil, I'd happily lend it (I prefer ply), but it appears there's a bit of water between us.......

[The Barbarian]

Can you not resin bond some inserts? summert like this:

Lip on the bottom stop em pulling through

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Threaded-Rivet-Nut-Inserts-M6-25-Pack-/370002548035?pt=UK_BOI_Metalworking_Milling_Weldin g_Metalworking_Supplies_ET&hash=item5625ded543

[walpurgis]

I've used similar to retain a pickup arm mount and speaker drive units and they work just fine.

[Spectral Morn]

I drilled my slate and glued threaded inserts in so the arm board can be bolted down. Short M3 or M4 is sufficient. It saves having long bolts though the plinth.
I use 10mm perspex with mine.

Good bidding, I kicked myself when I missed the end of that auction.

If you were a bit close Neil, I'd happily lend it (I prefer ply), but it appears there's a bit of water between us.......

Yes indeed there is and that seems to be the problem, not too many opportunities to either hear or buy around here. Thank you for the offer.

Regards Neil

[shane]

I wonder what happened to Darren at Slatedeck? He used to post regularly on WD and Audio-talk, but haven't seen anything from him for years.

[DarrenHW]

I drilled my slate and glued threaded inserts in so the arm board can be bolted down. Short M3 or M4 is sufficient. It saves having long bolts though the plinth.
I use 10mm perspex with mine.



Can you not resin bond some inserts? summert like this:

Lip on the bottom stop em pulling through

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Threaded-Rivet-Nut-Inserts-M6-25-Pack-/370002548035?pt=UK_BOI_Metalworking_Milling_Weldin g_Metalworking_Supplies_ET&hash=item5625ded543


I've used similar to retain a pickup arm mount and speaker drive units and they work just fine.

Great idea, it hadn't occurred to me to set inserts, will be far more convenient than bolting through and I'd imagine less resonant?


Good bidding, I kicked myself when I missed the end of that auction.

Thank you, if you'd have bid I'd probably have lost it, took me to my maximum bid, I only won by £2.87. I always chuck in a crazy number just over what I want to bid as it's gutting to lose out for a couple of quid, very glad I did in this instance.
The 401's an early 1965 model rough as a$$holes but so far seems mechanically fine.

[DiveDeepDog]

If I'd remembered, I would've won :doh: But I've already got 2 401's and slate plinths, your need is greater :lol:

I was thinking these,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M4-M5-M6-M8-M10-THREADED-TYPE-D-WOOD-INSERT-NUTS-ALL-SIZES-PACKS-OF-20-/321618140748?pt=UK_DIY_Material_Nails_Fixing_MJ&var=&hash=item4ae1ef5e4c


Areldite or 2 pack filler to set them

I'd use smallest available, slate can splinter and small makes the cover up easier.

[DarrenHW]

If I'd remembered, I would've won :doh: But I've already got 2 401's and slate plinths, your need is greater :lol:

I was thinking these,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M4-M5-M6-M8-M10-THREADED-TYPE-D-WOOD-INSERT-NUTS-ALL-SIZES-PACKS-OF-20-/321618140748?pt=UK_DIY_Material_Nails_Fixing_MJ&var=&hash=item4ae1ef5e4c


Areldite or 2 pack filler to set them

I'd use smallest available, slate can splinter and small makes the cover up easier.

Thanks for the advice :).


If you were a bit close Neil, I'd happily lend it (I prefer ply), but it appears there's a bit of water between us.......

What is it you prefer about Ply? After reading up on plinths I preferred what I'd read about skeletal hardwood plinths. I've started work on a jig (which I would have completed last Saturday if I hadn't had to go pick this up) once finished I plan to cut a prototype out of Oak block board (I have a few off cuts) and when I'm happy with the layout cut out a Maple plinth, have you experimented with any solid hardwoods?

[Spectral Morn]

Thanks for the advice :).



What is it you prefer about Ply? After reading up on plinths I preferred what I'd read about skeletal hardwood plinths. I've started work on a jig (which I would have completed last Saturday if I hadn't had to go pick this up) once finished I plan to cut a prototype out of Oak block board (I have a few off cuts) and when I'm happy with the layout cut out a Maple plinth, have you experimented with any solid hardwoods?

Getting me mixed up with another I have no feelings one way or the other, as I have never heard a Garrard 301 or 401.


Regards Neil

[DarrenHW]

Getting me mixed up with another I have no feelings one way or the other, as I have never heard a Garrard 301 or 401.


Regards Neil

I was asking Mark;


If you were a bit close Neil, I'd happily lend it (I prefer ply), but it appears there's a bit of water between us.......

:)

[DiveDeepDog]

I'm due another trial, my system keeps changing (thats the excuse for a change of mind ) but I found more weight and depth in the bass with ply.
Slate is a little sharper, but to me veered towards digital, lacked emotion for want of a better word.

I don't use any soft coupling, (grommets, rubber washers) and have a strong dislike of Sorbothane anywhere near the TT.

I'm lucky to have both here, and 2 401's to compare. The differences between them isn't enough to hide Garrrard's character, and with different amp/speakers slate could easily be my first choice.

I started my plinth building with Ikea Beech block. Lots of experimentation with squash balls, sorbothane and spikes. Fixing an arm board to the lower piece was best, with spikes between top and bottom layer.
I found lightweight skeletal closest to an airy belt drive presentation, but I use Garrard's for their drive and pace.


Solid ply base with slate top is probably the best of both.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3893/14581669822_1e660d52b0_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/odwSqo)DSC_0001 (https://flic.kr/p/odwSqo) by levs the diver (https://www.flickr.com/people/49381909@N08/), on Flickr

[DarrenHW]

Thanks for your thoughts Mark, they pretty much mirror what I've read elsewhere.


I'm due another trial, my system keeps changing (thats the excuse for a change of mind ) but I found more weight and depth in the bass with ply. Slate is a little sharper,

I've only had a brief listen to the 401 in the slate plinth, I did think that it sounded a bit bass light, compared to the piece of chipboard it's been sat it. Setup was far from optimal and I put it down to that but this is definitely a concern.



but to me veered towards digital, lacked emotion for want of a better word.

I know what your saying, one of the things that drew me to the 401 and away from the Techy was it's emotion (I guess this is what's referred to as the Garrards "colouration"), I really don't want to lose that aspect of the 401.


I don't use any soft coupling, (grommets, rubber washers) and have a strong dislike of Sorbothane anywhere near the TT.

I'm glad you've said this as I've been thinking the same thing, my intention for the DIY timber plinth (and now the slate) is avoid any soft coupling.


I started my plinth building with Ikea Beech block.

Funny you should say that, there was a 2.4m length of Ikea Beach Block on Gumtree in Conwy I was tempted to collect on my way back from collecting the 401, it was only because it was so windy I didn't fancy having it strapped to the roof, pity as they only wanted £50 for it :(


Fixing an arm board to the lower piece was best, with spikes between top and bottom layer.

I've seen the arguments for and against, it makes sense to me that attaching the armboard to the lower piece is the better solution, this is not something I will implement with the MK1, (due to the added complication) but is something I intend to investigate.


I found lightweight skeletal closest to an airy belt drive presentation, but I use Garrard's for their drive and pace.
"Air" is what appeals to me about the skeletal, although that you find this comes at the cost of drive and pace is something to take into consideration.


Solid ply base with slate top is probably the best of both.

This is my thought with the skeletal design, the timber and slate will be cut so that all layers could be interchangeable.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3893/14581669822_1e660d52b0_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/odwSqo)DSC_0001 (https://flic.kr/p/odwSqo) by levs the diver (https://www.flickr.com/people/49381909@N08/), on Flickr[/QUOTE]

Great looking plinth, I like it's proportion. I do like the inset look (but also like the Garrard raised up for it's vintage appeal), what is the top layer of your plinth, is it for acoustic or cosmetic reasons?

Thanks again for taking the time to report your findings, very useful to have the views of another member of the 401 owners club :).

[Marco]

Nice one, Dazza (following this thread with interest) - *that* is pretty much the type of plinth I'd eventually like to house my Techy in! :)

I like the idea of 'sandwiching' a piece of slate between two bits of hardwood. For me, it's not only about providing effective isolation, but maximising on the advantages of the resonance properties/characteristics (and subsequent sonic signature) of different plinth materials.

As you've discovered, when you use just one material, you end up with too much of that material's 'sound' dominating proceedings. The trick, therefore, is to 'mix & match', but judiciously so, by 'tuning' the results to achieve what sounds best to your ears... ;)

Marco.

[DarrenHW]

In that case I hope you're up for a bit of experimentation :eek:

I need to alter my jig to allow for the armboard location of the Slatedeck then I can churn out a number of plinths that can be used in a skeletal or CLD arrangement. For the plinths I have the Slatedeck, 40mm Oak Block, 40mm Beech Block and hopefully tonight I'll pick up some 19mm Birch Ply (not Baltic but FOC, so good enough for a test bed). For the armboard I have the slate, Oak, Mahogany, Beech and hopefully Ply. Following the Slatedeck armboard layout and using threaded inserts as recommended above (however, due to your influence these will most likely be Stainless Steel with SS bolts) in all the plinths should enable pretty quick changes to the Liquorice Allsort layers and armboard configuration and material, I'll probably even set a MDIN into the Rega.

Lots of work to do, both on and off the TT but hopefully will have everything good to go in about a month.

[Marco]

Always up for some shenanigans, so just call me when you need me (as long as you supply the fish & chips)! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[DarrenHW]

...(as long as you supply the fish & chips)! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Deal, washed down with the ridiculously expensive Ginger Beer you've got me hooked on :cool:

[Marco]

Ha - that's all part of your education, my boy, for enjoying the finer things in life! :D

Marco.

[DiveDeepDog]

Re Skeletal plinths and fixing arm boards, I think some use compliant layers between top and bottom, you've then lost the rigid point between spindle and arm.

I've seen one plinth, motor unit and arm in 2 pieces, with both sides sat on 4 linn springs each. Totally independent they can wobble to their hearts content ! Obviously I may be missing some intricate design from just seeing the pics ............

[DarrenHW]

No development on the armboard mounting but as I've just collected a second piece of 45mm slate for the plinth I thought I'd upload some photo's of the mock up for feedback:

http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u606/drtwas/IMG_4918_zpsnr9u1iwe.jpg (http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/drtwas/media/IMG_4918_zpsnr9u1iwe.jpg.html)

Trans-Fi feet between the two pieces with some washers to make up the difference:

http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u606/drtwas/IMG_4917_zpsnmktfbjr.jpg (http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/drtwas/media/IMG_4917_zpsnmktfbjr.jpg.html)

Soundcare SuperSpikes in the bracket:

http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u606/drtwas/IMG_4920_zps3v7hqoct.jpg (http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/drtwas/media/IMG_4920_zps3v7hqoct.jpg.html)

The results thus far (about 90 minutes of listening) are very promising, back ground noise and rumble have been significantly reduced, HF's are more pronounced and (whilst in a previous post I'd voiced concerns about diminishing bass from the Slate Deck) bass has become less sound more feeling. I'm very encouraged by what I'm hearing and hope to find time soon to mount the armboard and rewire and mount the Hadcock.

I am considering having brass shoe's turned for the TransFi feet, the feet have a thread running through them so a shoe with a countersunk hole in it's centre could be bolted on. Any suggestions for an off the shelf solution, some thing like old brass weights etc... I need an additional 10mm in height. At the same time if I do continue with this plinth design I'll get another piece of 45mm slate which will mean the TransFi feet will be perfectly adequate.

[Marco]

Great stuff, dude, things are coming on rather nicely! Never heard about the Target wall shelf - good one :)

The journey’s a long and arduous one, but the end is *just* that bit more in sight now! ;)

Marco.

[DarrenHW]

Great stuff, dude, things are coming on rather nicely! Never heard about the Target wall shelf - good one :)

I thought I told you about it, another one of Luke's skip finds, also came with a Target rack which is in the Kitchen.


The journey’s a long and arduous one, but the end is *just* that bit more in sight now! ;)

Marco.

Damn straight! I won't be able to make it to Scalford, sorry for not letting you know earlier, I've only just remembered about it :doh:. Working long days at the moment and it's taking it's toll, I'll be in touch when I have a bit of free time, hopefully I'll have the Hadcock on by then?

[Marco]

Or as it’s affectionately known as the ‘haddock & chips’ :eyebrows:

Yeah, man, no worries. As I mentioned to you, I used to have a GH-242 Integra [with a Koetsu Black Goldline cartridge, on the end], which was a nicely musical sounding tonearm. It’s a fiddly bugger to set up though, so gizza shout when you’re ready, and I’ll pop over and help you set it up and get it singing to the usual Marco-boy standard! ;)

No worries about Scaly - a couple of other friends are probably coming along, not to mention, Del.

Marco.