Replace Jelco SA-750D with SME 309 on Gyrodec?

[gazcarts]

I'm toying with the idea of replacing my Jelco SA-750D with an SME 309 on my Gyrodec SE. Previous upgrades to the Gyro include the HR power supply and Orbe clamp. I currently have a Nagaoka MP500 cartridge fitted, but I'm awaiting a ZYX Bloom MC cartridge from Japan. Phono amp is a Tag McLaren PPA20 into Croft Micro 25R and Series 7.

Is the 309 a worthwhile upgrade?

Many thanks
Gareth

[Clive197]

The 309, while beautifully made and looks great has been accused of sounding a bit flat. The Jelco on the other hand, not so pretty but sounds more musical IMO. Stick with the Jelco. Sounds like a bit of a sideways step to me.

[Spectral Morn]

I disagree, an SME 309 sounds wonderful on the gyrodec, however a premagnesium arm tube 309 sounds a wee bit more open and musical than a later 309, which does sound a wee bit more sat on, due to the magnesium. However get the cart right and I don't think it matters that much. Fit, finish, use ability the SME blows a Jelco out of the water which is much cruder less well made arm imho.

Also don't use a Van Den Hul arm cable with the SME its a horrible cable, and part of the problem re sound from these arms, dark and closed in.



Regards Neil

[Oldpinkman]

I know I sound like a stuck record, and I know the arms are made by a mate of mine, but are Jelco and SME the only two arms in the world? A lot of the reason I am seeing more of Arthur now than I have for 10 years or so was a need to get my Mission 774 repaired properly having patched it up myself for years. Instead Arthur confiscated the 774 and stuck a Funk F5 on my venerable PT because he was too busy to fanny about with arm repairs for a mate.

I was absolutely gob-smacked at how good it was, and it was a google search to see if I could find a review of it that led me here. Subsequently I have heard an F6 and acquired an FX-R, and both punch way above their weight against the jaded normal opposition. Obviously the Jelco and SME tend to be available used, and therefore much cheaper than full retail, but this blind adherence to old favourites means too many people are missing out on some seriously good alternatives. Ask Cagey.

There is a 309 at Funks factory every time I visit . It is beautifully engineered, and a joy to use (apart from an alleged glitch last time i was down there), and sounds like a tonearm. Try listening to a pickup arm with no tone - it is a revelation. To quote one of the early FX-R reviews, quoted on Funks website,

"It's remarkable how the music comes through when the arm is not in the way" . I couldn't put it better myself. If there is no dealer nearby in Scotland for you to go and listen to one, and you are interested, I'll see if I can organise a loaner, cos it has to be in AK's interest to let more people hear these arms.

[gazcarts]

Thanks for the opinions so far. I currently use an Townsend Isolda DCT300 tonearm cable, which I hope is upto the job? I've never actually seen one advertised on Townsend's website, so I think it's a pretty rare cable. I suppose an older 309 (i.e. non magnesium) would also be cheaper. Is there any way of telling them apart if the seller doesn't mention it?

Many thanks

[MCRU]

Thanks for the opinions so far. I currently use an Townsend Isolda DCT300 tonearm cable, which I hope is upto the job? I've never actually seen one advertised on Townsend's website, so I think it's a pretty rare cable. I suppose an older 309 (i.e. non magnesium) would also be cheaper. Is there any way of telling them apart if the seller doesn't mention it?

Many thanks
Gareth

Very good cable indeed. Have you considered re-wiring the Jelco with silver wire and fitting a better headshell maybe?

I have the 750D wired with silver and a rosewood/magnesium headshell, I also have an SME 309 and a V but prefer the Jelco.

[gazcarts]

I know I sound like a stuck record, and I know the arms are made by a mate of mine, but are Jelco and SME the only two arms in the world? A lot of the reason I am seeing more of Arthur now than I have for 10 years or so was a need to get my Mission 774 repaired properly having patched it up myself for years. Instead Arthur confiscated the 774 and stuck a Funk F5 on my venerable PT because he was too busy to fanny about with arm repairs for a mate.

I was absolutely gob-smacked at how good it was, and it was a google search to see if I could find a review of it that led me here. Subsequently I have heard an F6 and acquired an FX-R, and both punch way above their weight against the jaded normal opposition. Obviously the Jelco and SME tend to be available used, and therefore much cheaper than full retail, but this blind adherence to old favourites means too many people are missing out on some seriously good alternatives. Ask Cagey.

There is a 309 at Funks factory every time I visit . It is beautifully engineered, and a joy to use (apart from an alleged glitch last time i was down there), and sounds like a tonearm. Try listening to a pickup arm with no tone - it is a revelation. To quote one of the early FX-R reviews, quoted on Funks website,

"It's remarkable how the music comes through when the arm is not in the way" . I couldn't put it better myself. If there is no dealer nearby in Scotland for you to go and listen to one, and you are interested, I'll see if I can organise a loaner, cos it has to be in AK's interest to let more people hear these arms.

Thank you. There are some wonderful tonearms out there, so I'm definitely open to suggestions. I only really mentioned the 309 after a Google search, which showed many considered it a good match for the Gyrodec. Don't get me wrong, the Jelco is a lovely arm, but I still don't feel I'm getting my socks blown off when I compare vinyl to digital, especially now I've also been dabbling with SACD and higher bitrate audio downloads. Whether that is actually down to the cartridge or the PPA20, I don't know. This system matching thing is a real PITA :scratch: I'm looking forward to trying the ZYX, as that has had some great reviews. I'd be very happy to try a Funk tonearm if you were able to loan me one. I have a Rega armboard for the Gyrodec if that's the mount it uses (I'll go and Google the arm now)

[gazcarts]

Very good cable indeed. Have you considered re-wiring the Jelco with silver wire and fitting a better headshell maybe?

I have the 750D wired with silver and a rosewood/magnesium headshell, I also have an SME 309 and a V but prefer the Jelco.

I hadn't thought of rewiring the Jelco to be honest. Who does that? My current headshell is a Sumiko. Both were left over from the Technics SL1210 I dabbled with a few years back.

[gazcarts]

A friend of mine is also looking for a tonearm, but for his LP12. He's mentioned the Wilson Benesch A.C.T. 0.5, which is a beautiful looking tonearm. Has anyone tried one?

Many thanks

[Oldpinkman]

Thank you. There are some wonderful tonearms out there, so I'm definitely open to suggestions. I only really mentioned the 309 after a Google search, which showed many considered it a good match for the Gyrodec. Don't get me wrong, the Jelco is a lovely arm, but I still don't feel I'm getting my socks blown off when I compare vinyl to digital, especially now I've also been dabbling with SACD and higher bitrate audio downloads. Whether that is actually down to the cartridge or the PPA20, I don't know. This system matching thing is a real PITA :scratch: I'm looking forward to trying the ZYX, as that has had some great reviews. I'd be very happy to try a Funk tonearm if you were able to loan me one. I have a Rega armboard for the Gyrodec if that's the mount it uses (I'll go and Google the arm now)

I'll ask. I've got to chase him for his tax return. What budget are you likely to have - F5 is £750 FX3 £1500 (I think), and it makes sense to try an arm you might consider rather than one out of your budget. I don't know the Nagaoka - but I'm still really keen to hear a Zyx - although the Dynavector I have is so good I can't see me ever changing it (I'm not a swapper, so don't get lured by everso slightly better). For sure, the arm is only part of the picture, but the Gyrodec is a decent TT and I would have thought should be capable of giving CD's a serious run for their money. Yes all funk arms will fit straight into a rega arm board. Can't comment on your phono stage, but for sure , in principal they make a major contribution to the final result. I wouldn't be without the Pip - the difference it makes compared with the likes of a Quad pre-amp (34/44) is really fundamental.

So an arm can't fix what's broke elsewhere. Maybe you need to borrow my Pip too!

I'll see if he's up for it - assuming you are happy to pay the return insured postage. Let me know which arm interests you. I doubt he has an FX3 to put out on loan, but there must be an old banger FX-R somewhere, and that will give you enough of an idea (the FX3 is a little better, but they are more similar than different). But the F5 is a good arm if you are keeping to a £750 budget. You may need to consider adding a bit of headshell mass with the Zyx, but I doubt it.

[Clive197]

A friend of mine is also looking for a tonearm, but for his LP12. He's mentioned the Wilson Benesch A.C.T. 0.5, which is a beautiful looking tonearm. Has anyone tried one?

Many thanks

NOW YOUR TALKING Fantastic arm, love it to pieces. I wonder what it would be like on my Techie?

[gazcarts]

I'll ask. I've got to chase him for his tax return. What budget are you likely to have - F5 is £750 FX3 £1500 (I think), and it makes sense to try an arm you might consider rather than one out of your budget. I don't know the Nagaoka - but I'm still really keen to hear a Zyx - although the Dynavector I have is so good I can't see me ever changing it (I'm not a swapper, so don't get lured by everso slightly better). For sure, the arm is only part of the picture, but the Gyrodec is a decent TT and I would have thought should be capable of giving CD's a serious run for their money. Yes all funk arms will fit straight into a rega arm board. Can't comment on your phono stage, but for sure , in principal they make a major contribution to the final result. I wouldn't be without the Pip - the difference it makes compared with the likes of a Quad pre-amp (34/44) is really fundamental.

So an arm can't fix what's broke elsewhere. Maybe you need to borrow my Pip too!

I'll see if he's up for it - assuming you are happy to pay the return insured postage. Let me know which arm interests you. I doubt he has an FX3 to put out on loan, but there must be an old banger FX-R somewhere, and that will give you enough of an idea (the FX3 is a little better, but they are more similar than different). But the F5 is a good arm if you are keeping to a £750 budget. You may need to consider adding a bit of headshell mass with the Zyx, but I doubt it.

Thanks. I've sent you a PM.

[gazcarts]

As is often the case, when someone suggests something and you Google it, you start finding other alternatives. I've found a used Funk Firm FX-R II arm for just under £800, but what about the Audiomods Series Five arms? What beautifully modified Rega arms they are. Then there's the Inspire X100. Any opinions or comparisons?

Many thanks

[Tarzan]

As is often the case, when someone suggests something and you Google it, you start finding other alternatives. I've found a used Funk Firm FX-R II arm for just under £800, but what about the Audiomods Series Five arms? What beautifully modified Rega arms they are. Then there's the Inspire X100. Any opinions or comparisons?

Many thanks

As Adam (Beobloke) says there are things that go together like " fish and chips and Michell turntables and SME tone arms, love my Gyro/ SME beat combo, any way a nice decision to have to make, have fun.:)

[CageyH]

As is often the case, when someone suggests something and you Google it, you start finding other alternatives. I've found a used Funk Firm FX-R II arm for just under £800, but what about the Audiomods Series Five arms? What beautifully modified Rega arms they are. Then there's the Inspire X100. Any opinions or comparisons?

Many thanks

I am really enjoying my FX-1200 (the Technics specific version of the FXR). It's absolutely superb.
I am not even thinking about swapping it for something better, as that would cost me a small fortune.

[Mike g]

On the rewiring...I've got a 750d on my orbe with gyro upgrades which has been rewired by audio origami and uses an audio origami arm cable. It's a great sounding arm - would be worth speaking to Johny at AO.

[337alant]

I have an SME armboard for a gyro deck if you want it £30 if your interested

Alan

[paskinn]

What is it you actually want? Because ten people will give you ten different views; how can you assess their validity to you? In audio there is no real consensus about anything. What can it matter what other people do or don't like.
I doubt that changing the arm will lead to analogue 'winning' over digital You probably just like digital. Hardly a crime.
Of the arms mentioned , I would say the Funk is the best sounding ( usual caveats) but the 309 is the best to own and enjoy over the longer term .

[gazcarts]

What is it you actually want? Because ten people will give you ten different views; how can you assess their validity to you? In audio there is no real consensus about anything. What can it matter what other people do or don't like.
I doubt that changing the arm will lead to analogue 'winning' over digital You probably just like digital. Hardly a crime.
Of the arms mentioned , I would say the Funk is the best sounding ( usual caveats) but the 309 is the best to own and enjoy over the longer term .

I realise this, but some on here may have already gone down this path and tried the various arms that have been suggested. One thing it has done is to get me doing some internet research, and as a result of that I have used the Hifi News test record to tweak the anti-skate on the Jelco. I had it set at 1.5 to match the VTF of the cartridge. I've now got it set to 0.5 and it seems to sound better, although I'm clearly no expert in this field, so welcome advice. I've also added a couple of drops of damping oil. It's got me reaching for more records from my collection, which can't be a bad thing I suppose. I may well try a different tonearm at some point, just to see what difference it makes. The FXR is on the list for sure.

[gazcarts]

I have an SME armboard for a gyro deck if you want it £30 if your interested

Alan

Thanks Alan. If an SME 309 catches my eye I will contact you.

[Reffc]

I'm toying with the idea of replacing my Jelco SA-750D with an SME 309 on my Gyrodec SE. Previous upgrades to the Gyro include the HR power supply and Orbe clamp. I currently have a Nagaoka MP500 cartridge fitted, but I'm awaiting a ZYX Bloom MC cartridge from Japan. Phono amp is a Tag McLaren PPA20 into Croft Micro 25R and Series 7.

Is the 309 a worthwhile upgrade?

Many thanks
Gareth

What's not to like about a Jelco 750/MP-500 on a Gyro?...very musical combo. Pointless asking on an open forum for suggestions here because you'll be hard pushed to get any consensus at all as everyone has their personal favourite arms/carts.

The Jelco is a fine arm, and with a little tweaking, is the equal of arms at three times the cost.

What is it you're not satisfied with? I have the 309 Magnesium and the suggestions that it is in any way "sat on" sounding had me scratching my head. Utter nonsense imho. It's a fine arm but really is not a massive sonic upgrade from a well fettled Jelco. Personally, I wouldn't expect a simple re-wire to change anything significantly. How can it unless there's something fundamentally wrong with the existing wiring or connections? Having the bearings serviced (if it's an older or well used model) and perhaps checking cartridge tags (many aren't that great a fit) might be a better way to spend any hard-earned. Personally, I'd hang onto it.

The ZYX you'll find a very, VERY different beast to the MP-500. The Nag just lets you get on with the business of enjoying music. It is not a "hifi" sounding cartridge but a massively musical one. The ZYX by comparison sounds a little more analytical, has better defined bass and the edge on detail and clarity. Both present the musical feats on slightly different platters so to speak and there's merit in both. You will lose some of that effortless and engrossing sound of the Nag, which also tracks better than just about any cart on the planet. The Zyx is a little more up-front, providing a more 3-D sound scape and really needs a little headshell weight added to most medium mass tonearms to hear it at its best and for more compliant tracking.

It seems a little odd to be changing both the cart and the arm at the same time when you wont have heard either together. Why not wait until you have the ZYX, live with it for a while (it'll need at least 50 hours break in to become fully compliant anyway) then re-ask yourself what it is you're looking for. Sounds like you risk running in circles or spending money where perhaps its not needed for some sideways moves which at most may make things sound a bit different, unless you have a clear picture in your mind's eye of where you think you're missing out and what it is you're looking to address.

I'm speaking as someone who currently runs a Gyro SE by the way, and a 309, and a ZYX....and an MP-500 ;)

[gazcarts]

On the rewiring...I've got a 750d on my orbe with gyro upgrades which has been rewired by audio origami and uses an audio origami arm cable. It's a great sounding arm - would be worth speaking to Johny at AO.

Thanks Mike

(I think I need to learn how to use the multi quote instead of posting several replies)

[gazcarts]

What's not to like about a Jelco 750/MP-500 on a Gyro?...very musical combo. Pointless asking on an open forum for suggestions here because you'll be hard pushed to get any consensus at all.

The Jelco is a fine arm, and with a little tweaking, is the equal of arms at three times the cost.

What is it you're not satisfied with? I have the 309 Magnesium and the suggestions that it is in any way "sat on" sounding had me scratching my head. Utter nonsense imho. It's a fine arm but really is not a massive sonic upgrade from a well fettled Jelco. Personally, I wouldn't expect a simple re-wire to change anything significantly. How can it unless there's something fundamentally wrong with the existing wiring or connections? Having the bearings serviced (if it's an older or well used model) and perhaps checking cartridge tags (many aren't that great a fit) might be a better way to spend any hard-earned. Personally, I'd hang onto it.

The ZYX you'll find a very, VERY different beast to the MP-500. The Nag just lets you get on with the business of enjoying music. It is not a "hifi" sounding cartridge but a massively musical one. The ZYX by comparison sounds a little more analytical, has better defined bass and the edge on detail and clarity. Both present the musical feats on slightly different platters so to speak and there's merit in both. You will lose some of that effortless and engrossing sound of the Nag, which also tracks better than just about any cart on the planet. The Zyx is a little more up-front, providing a more 3-D sound scape and really needs a little headshell weight added to most medium mass tonearms to hear it at its best and for more compliant tracking.

It seems a little odd to be changing both the cart and the arm at the same time when you wont have heard either together. Why not wait until you have the ZYX, live with it for a while (it'll need at least 50 hours break in to become fully compliant anyway) then re-ask yourself what it is you;'re looking for. Sounds like you risk running in circles or spending money where perhaps its not needed for some sideways moves which at most may make things sound a bit different, unless you have a clear picture in your mind's eye of where you think you're missing out and what it is you're looking to address.

Thanks, that's very helpful and I think you're correct. I blame all this on my friend who's looking for a new arm for his LP12 :lol: (he's settled on the Wilson Benesch arm by the way). It just got me thinking about possible higher performing tonearms. I'm telling myself I wouldn't spend anymore money, but I also can't help looking for a nice vintage DD turntable! Argh! I can't stop internet shopping! :stalks:

[Beobloke]

I have a Michell Gyro SE. I also have a Jelco SA-750D and an SME 309. They are all truly exceptional bits of kit and I won't be parting with any of them but, for what it's worth, the SME lives on the Gyro. Like fish and chips, toast and Marmite or Mulder and Scully, Michell and SME just work beautifully.

[Andrei]

Thanks, that's very helpful and I think you're correct. I blame all this on my friend who's looking for a new arm for his LP12 :lol: (he's settled on the Wilson Benesch arm by the way). It just got me thinking about possible higher performing tonearms. I'm telling myself I wouldn't spend anymore money, but I also can't help looking for a nice vintage DD turntable! Argh! I can't stop internet shopping!

I'm also looking for an arm upgrade. My thinking is that it is better to upgrade the arm than the cartridge. The reason for that in turn is due to cost. The arm will outlast many cartridges! I have considered the SME M2 9 that I believe would have synergy with the SL1200. But what Paul says applies to me too. It would be a minor upgrade. I reckon the better thing to do is to leave things as they are unless one can make a decent step forwards rather than a small step forwards and sideways.

As an aside: Anyone here seen a Wilson Bensech Arm on a Tecchie?

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/ACT05_zps6740c9cf.jpg (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/Andrei_nz/media/ACT05_zps6740c9cf.jpg.html)


Man, they look the business! :stalks:

[gazcarts]

I have a Michell Gyro SE. I also have a Jelco SA-750D and an SME 309. They are all truly exceptional bits of kit and I won't be parting with any of them but, for what it's worth, the SME lives on the Gyro. Like fish and chips, toast and Marmite or Mulder and Scully, Michell and SME just work beautifully.

Thanks. That's good to know. It may be my imagination, but since adjusting the Jelco, it sounds absolutely lovely. I've just listened to vinyl for the last 5 hours because it was so addictive. I may also have to hold off on the tonearm for a while (unless a bargain comes up) as I've just bought a Lenco L75! That will be a mini project for me, something I've fancied doing for a while.

[Tarzan]

Thanks. That's good to know. It may be my imagination, but since adjusting the Jelco, it sounds absolutely lovely. I've just listened to vinyl for the last 5 hours because it was so addictive. I may also have to hold off on the tonearm for a while (unless a bargain comes up) as I've just bought a Lenco L75! That will be a mini project for me, something I've fancied doing for a while.


There you go- jobs a good un.:):cool:

[gazcarts]

I've been having a bit of a tinker today. I have a couple of other tonearms that I don't use, both based on the Jelco 250ST. One is a Mission 774LC, the other is a Roksan tonearm. Unfortunately, the Mission has a chrome sleeve around the mount making the diameter too big to fit the Jelco mount already fitted to the Gyrodec. I tried removing the two screws on this sleeve but it wouldn't come off. I've always had a problem with the 774LC. I used to use it on the Technics I had until I noticed the arm isn't straight on the mount, so the azimuth of the cartridge is off a bit. Is there anyway to fix this and also to remove the sleeve? :scratch:

The Roksan arm actually sounded very nice, although I only had a AT440MLa to fit to it. I then remembered I had a Roksan Corus Black in a box, so fitted that to an ADC magnesium headshell and fitted it to the Jelco SA-750D. I needed some blu tack to weigh it down as that headshell is way too light. In the end I put it on the original Jelco headshell and could dispel with the blu tack. The Corus black actually sounds very nice, which makes me wonder if the MP500 maybe needs a new stylus? Maybe it's just a different sound, but it reminds me of the wonderful sound I got from my Dynavector 10x5 before I trashed it on the platter of the Technics :doh:

I think I'll leave the Corus on for a while then switch back to the MP500 to see if the difference is as much as I think it is.

[Jimbo]

Thanks. That's good to know. It may be my imagination, but since adjusting the Jelco, it sounds absolutely lovely. I've just listened to vinyl for the last 5 hours because it was so addictive. I may also have to hold off on the tonearm for a while (unless a bargain comes up) as I've just bought a Lenco L75! That will be a mini project for me, something I've fancied doing for a while.

Hi Gareth,
what arm are you thinking of fitting to the Lenco 75. iI have just bought one and am pondering my options.:)

[Ammonite Audio]

Hi Gareth,
what arm are you thinking of fitting to the Lenco 75. iI have just bought one and am pondering my options.:)

Options depend on whether the new arm is to be mounted on the Lenco's top plate, in which case a Linn geometry arm such as the Jelco SA-250ST would be required (not the SA-750D as its 214mm mounting distance is wrong). If the arm can be mounted elsewhere, you are freed from this restriction and the options are endless. The SA-750D is a really good honest performer at a reasonable price and you would have to pay a lot more to better it significantly.

[gazcarts]

Hi Gareth,
what arm are you thinking of fitting to the Lenco 75. iI have just bought one and am pondering my options.:)

I'd initially like to use either the Jelco SA-750D or the Roksan arm I have (Jelco SA-250ST clone). I'm not capable, nor do I have the tools to build a plinth, so I'm going to keep it nice a simple. I'll service and replace the parts I need to, then will probably (it's early days yet and I haven't looked at all the options) go down the PTP5 top plate route with a nice ready-made plinth. I'll try to have interchangeable armboards as it would be nice to try one of the 12" Jelcos or similar at some point. The Lenco should hopefully arrive later this week.


Options depend on whether the new arm is to be mounted on the Lenco's top plate, in which case a Linn geometry arm such as the Jelco SA-250ST would be required (not the SA-750D as its 214mm mounting distance is wrong). If the arm can be mounted elsewhere, you are freed from this restriction and the options are endless. The SA-750D is a really good honest performer at a reasonable price and you would have to pay a lot more to better it significantly.

I mounted the SA-250ST clone on the Gyro yesterday, just out of curiosity. I didn't realise it had a different mounting distance. I was lazy and used the SA-750D cartridge alignment printout to set the cartridge. It all seemed totally correct. As I say above, I'll probably use the SA-750D initially then fit a 12" version at some point.

[Spectral Morn]

What's not to like about a Jelco 750/MP-500 on a Gyro?...very musical combo. Pointless asking on an open forum for suggestions here because you'll be hard pushed to get any consensus at all as everyone has their personal favourite arms/carts.

The Jelco is a fine arm, and with a little tweaking, is the equal of arms at three times the cost.

What is it you're not satisfied with? I have the 309 Magnesium and the suggestions that it is in any way "sat on" sounding had me scratching my head. Utter nonsense imho. It's a fine arm but really is not a massive sonic upgrade from a well fettled Jelco. Personally, I wouldn't expect a simple re-wire to change anything significantly. How can it unless there's something fundamentally wrong with the existing wiring or connections? Having the bearings serviced (if it's an older or well used model) and perhaps checking cartridge tags (many aren't that great a fit) might be a better way to spend any hard-earned. Personally, I'd hang onto it.

The ZYX you'll find a very, VERY different beast to the MP-500. The Nag just lets you get on with the business of enjoying music. It is not a "hifi" sounding cartridge but a massively musical one. The ZYX by comparison sounds a little more analytical, has better defined bass and the edge on detail and clarity. Both present the musical feats on slightly different platters so to speak and there's merit in both. You will lose some of that effortless and engrossing sound of the Nag, which also tracks better than just about any cart on the planet. The Zyx is a little more up-front, providing a more 3-D sound scape and really needs a little headshell weight added to most medium mass tonearms to hear it at its best and for more compliant tracking.

It seems a little odd to be changing both the cart and the arm at the same time when you wont have heard either together. Why not wait until you have the ZYX, live with it for a while (it'll need at least 50 hours break in to become fully compliant anyway) then re-ask yourself what it is you're looking for. Sounds like you risk running in circles or spending money where perhaps its not needed for some sideways moves which at most may make things sound a bit different, unless you have a clear picture in your mind's eye of where you think you're missing out and what it is you're looking to address.

I'm speaking as someone who currently runs a Gyro SE by the way, and a 309, and a ZYX....and an MP-500 ;)

Have you compared the two versions of the 309 Paul ? If not don't write it off as being nonsense.


Regards Neil

[NRG]

I've only heard the 309 magnesium and agree with Paul. I've used it on a Gyro SE with full Orbe upgrades and with an SP10 on slatedeck plinth and I would not describe it as sat-on or in anyway dull sounding if that was implied...

[Marco]

I’m normally not a fan either of the 309 (or indeed any of the Magnesium-based SME arms). However, I’ve not heard a 309 with an MP-500 (could be a great match), plus modern SME arms are well-known to work superbly well on Gyrodecs…

As usual, it’s all a question of synergy! :)

Marco

[gazcarts]

I'm currently leaning towards the Audiomods arm. It has glowing praise from virtually everyone who has heard it and would look stunning on the Gyrodec and maybe later the Lenco :) Jeff has been extremely helpful and very quick to respond to my emails. He also has a Gyrodec, so can spot any compatibility issues before they happen. He's incorporating new improvements in the latest arms too.

[keiron99]

I have a Michell Gyro SE. I also have a Jelco SA-750D and an SME 309. They are all truly exceptional bits of kit and I won't be parting with any of them but, for what it's worth, the SME lives on the Gyro. Like fish and chips, toast and Marmite or Mulder and Scully, Michell and SME just work beautifully.

How does the Jelco compare to the SME in terms of build quality? I'm also considering a Jelco (albeit for a Technics SL1210) and was rather surprised to read the following further up in the thread:


Fit, finish, use ability the SME blows a Jelco out of the water which is much cruder less well made arm imho.

[Marco]

Hi Keiron,

It's true. If we're talking purely about build quality, then any new SME arm will smoke the Jelco.

However, if we're talking also about sonic performance, then that's a different matter, and in some instances (say, when a Denon DL-103 is in the equation), I'd take the Jelco over ANY SME. Therefore, it comes down to two things:

1) Which cartridge one intends to use with either the SME or the Jelco.
2) Whether looks (build quality) is more important to you than performance/sonic synergy.

Also, of course, there is the fact that with a Gyrodec in the equation, in general, SME arms are going to sound better anyway, as they suit the sonic signature of the Gyro - and so in any case, I wouldn't be putting a Jelco on a Gyrodec, regardless of the cartridge used.

On another T/T, different rules would apply :)

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

How does the Jelco compare to the SME in terms of build quality? I'm also considering a Jelco (albeit for a Technics SL1210) and was rather surprised to read the following further up in the thread:

Hi Kieron

I have both and SME is as good as it gets re fit and finish, set up instructions etc. Fit and finish on no other arm I have seen, worked on re setting up todate or owned compares but I haven't seen them all, but of what I have seen, Rega, Jelco, Linn, Graham, older Triplanner, ET, Zeta, Michelle, Alphason, Clearaudio, Project, AMG, VPI (cheaper arms), none have compared either re easy of set up, fit and finish or instructions. There are no doubt a few I can't recall but in general SME sit at the top re the things I list but sound quality is a different matter as depending on turntable and cartridge other arms may work better.

Regardless though I would not use the VDH armcable SMEs come with, easy way to lose some of the performance one is paying for. Of course folks may well disagree.

Re prefering the sound of the non magnesium 309 I stand by that comment and to my mind sat upon, safe, boring, damped, overly controlled are the words I would use to describe that difference. I have a Model 20 SME turntable and with the SME 5 on it the sound is the same, put the Graham on it and a whole different level of musical enjoyment is be had. The SME 5 does works well on my Oracle Delphi and the Technics 1200, also not bad on the JBE Series three I have either.

Anyway that oft used phrase, 'ones mileage may vary' seems to apply here.


Regards Neil

[337alant]

Geoff is a gentleman to deal with and his latest Audiomods arm is said to be his best yet, mine was the version below this one but still sounded excellent to me
I don't think the AT 33EV cart was a good match though

I did a build thread when I bought the kit
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?28787-Audiomods-Rega-arm-Kit&highlight=audiomods



https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3929/15420466085_5277d4345c_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/puDVjV)IMG_1521 (https://flic.kr/p/puDVjV) by 337alant (https://www.flickr.com/people/69508926@N05/), on Flickr


Alan

[gazcarts]

Geoff is a gentleman to deal with and his latest Audiomods arm is said to be his best yet, mine was the version below this one but still sounded excellent to me
I don't think the AT 33EV cart was a good match though

I did a build thread when I bought the kit
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?28787-Audiomods-Rega-arm-Kit&highlight=audiomods



https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3929/15420466085_5277d4345c_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/puDVjV)IMG_1521 (https://flic.kr/p/puDVjV) by 337alant (https://www.flickr.com/people/69508926@N05/), on Flickr


Alan

It's a beautiful looking arm and I'm really looking forward to receiving mine in a few weeks. I'll pop it onto the Gyrodec for a listen and to compare it to the Jelco, but I'm currently building a plinth for my Lenco L75 and plan to mount both arms on that. Assuming I haven't cocked up the planning of the plinth, the interchangeable armboards should also allow me to try out a 12 inch arm too at some point in the future.

[337alant]

It's a beautiful looking arm and I'm really looking forward to receiving mine in a few weeks. I'll pop it onto the Gyrodec for a listen and to compare it to the Jelco, but I'm currently building a plinth for my Lenco L75 and plan to mount both arms on that. Assuming I haven't cocked up the planning of the plinth, the interchangeable armboards should also allow me to try out a 12 inch arm too at some point in the future.

The Jelco 750D has a PTSD of 214mm and the Rega has a PTSD of 222mm so you will need an armboard that can achieve an adjustable PTSD
I have a Garrard 401 with a 12" Jelco 750L and its very nice indeed

Alan

[montesquieu]

I hadn't thought of rewiring the Jelco to be honest. Who does that? My current headshell is a Sumiko. Both were left over from the Technics SL1210 I dabbled with a few years back.

J7 at Audio Origami rewired my Jelco (and fettled the bearing - he's a whizz at that, and while the tolerances are great on them, the price point means variable assembluy quality). Anyway it bettered the Fidelity Research FR64S I had at the time, so in it went.

I'm not a huge fan of the 309 but I have to agree it partners well with a Girodeck. I'd still in most cases take a rewired, fettled Jelco though.

[Marco]

J7 at Audio Origami rewired my Jelco (and fettled the bearing - he's a whizz at that, and while the tolerances are great on them, the price point means variable assembluy quality). Anyway it bettered the Fidelity Research FR64S I had at the time, so in it went.


Interesting point, Tom, and one that very much appeals to my 'SPPV uber-alles' mentality.... If a rewired and 'J7 fettled' Jelco beats an FR64S, then it must be something pretty special! It's certainly one to remember in future. The 'Jelco giant-killer'... I like it! :eyebrows:

Not enough folk do that sort of thing (think outside of the box, and go the modded/bespoke route), preferring an easy 'ready-made' solution instead, when most often the former is where the biggest bang for your buck lies....

:exactly:

Marco.

[montesquieu]

Interesting point, Tom, and one that very much appeals to my 'SPPV uber-alles' mentality.... If a rewired and 'J7 fettled' Jelco beats an FR64S, then it must be something pretty special! It's certainly one to remember in future. The 'Jelco giant-killer'... I like it! :eyebrows:

Not enough folk do that sort of thing (think outside of the box, and go the modded/bespoke route), preferring an easy 'ready-made' solution instead, when most often the former is where the biggest bang for your buck lies....

:exactly:

Marco.

The FR64S is a phenomenal arm but the youngest are what, 30 years old? I'm not saying a fettled Jelco will always be better but mine was, against the old FR that I had which was stock and may well have benefitted itself from a rewire and a fettle, but changes to vintage gear are not always the thing to be doing.

[gazcarts]

The Jelco 750D has a PTSD of 214mm and the Rega has a PTSD of 222mm so you will need an armboard that can achieve an adjustable PTSD
I have a Garrard 401 with a 12" Jelco 750L and its very nice indeed

Alan

The plan is to have more than one armboard. I'll have two on the plinth with one or two spares that can be fitted if required.

[Reffc]

I've had a 309 on my Gyro for 7 years now and have no plans to change it for anything else. The 309 is a fantastic arm, backed by SMEs legendary service department who can fettle and renew bearings if needed. I like the Jelco, but a used 309 would still be my choice for the Gyro. Buying new, it's a no brainer in favour of the Jelco as the difference in cost between it and the current 309 leave room for upgrades and a decent cartridge thrown in too.

Comparisons with a good used 309 I'd say tilt things more towards the 309. 309 + Gyro = Match made in Heaven.

[Ammonite Audio]

All fair comments, but how many used SME 309s do you see for sale?

[Reffc]

All fair comments, but how many used SME 309s do you see for sale?

Not many. I bought my 309 Magnesium ex-demo and got a great deal; they do occasionally crop up but most owners seem to hang onto them, so few used for sale, which should tell you something about them. The Jelco is a fine arm though and well worth the new price with upgrades. Compared with some, it's an outright bargain.