View Full Version : preamp tone controls?
caspiancmonster
21-01-2015, 10:22
I have been around hifi for a while now, (15 years lets say) mostly on the speaker side of things and something I just don't get is why do preamps/integrated amps nearly always have tone controls? Is this just left over from the bad old days? I have been looking into multichannel preamp options lately and the tone control thing just really struck out as strange. I have decided to build a LDR based system for 8 channels but anyway in general I just don't get why you need anything more than volume control and maybe a few different inputs to select between in a preamp. Most of the time you can bypass the tone control portion of the amp but why in the world even put it there in the first place? I know the audio marketplace is full of hype, snake oil and other silliness but still, I don't get this little part of it.
If I or someone else spends a bunch of time getting speaker crossovers just right using measurements, simulation and critical listening I sure am not going to use tone controls and wouldn't want some yahoo to mess with them either :) I also can't think of any recordings worth playing that would benefit from such a blunt instrument nor are you going to fix room interaction with such a tool. You also can't get fancy with the response by adding intentional peaks or dips at certain frequencies because you think it sounds better that way.
I can see that before audio measurement and design equipment became common crossovers could have been so bad that tone controls were needed to make them listenable but now and for quite a ways back into the past there has been no reason for a speaker to be anything other than a linear transducer of the input signal with a totally flat frequency response (unless you are a certain unnamed seller of low quality over priced audio equipment that begins with a B and ends with an e).
Any thoughts?
Why include tone controls?
Some people buy on the number of features offered as a priority so if you don't include tone controls then you lose a sale. Those who don't want them can press the 'tone defeat' button which is usually a feature too.
Speakers may measure perfectly in an anechoic chamber but in a real-world room they may need a bit of tweaking in the top and/or bottom to sound right.
Partnering equipment may not be entirely suitable (a toppy cartridge might need taming with a bit of treble attenuation for example).
If you are using vintage speakers designed before computers or speakers that have been voiced entirely 'by ear' and as a consequence not have a remotely flat response then again you might benefit from having the ability to adjust the tonal balance a bit. Not everyone uses the latest whiz-bang modern gear.
There are an awful lot of amps and pre-amps that don't have tone controls. Linn, Naim, Cyrus are 3 big selling brands that spring to mind but there are lots of others.
I agree you shouldn't really need them in a well-sorted set up but a lot of folk will take the attitude that it is better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them.
Your looking at very different amps than I am if you think most include tone controls - none of the ones I would consider have them.
my Arcam has electronic ones through the remote. I have on occasion used these and the balance when using different ancillieries and can be useful even if it is in someways heresy to admit it
killie99
21-01-2015, 12:22
I have a Luxman L550aII, it has tone controls and a loudness button. It's the first amp I've owned that has tone controls since I moved on from a NAD3020A in 1986. I didn't think I'd ever use the feature when I bought the amp as I bought it for it's class A output, but you know what, they are a godsend. My listening room isn't great (I suspect most people's listening rooms aren't great as are a lot of recordings) and the ability to tweak using the tone controls is great. I'm not sure I could go back to not having tone controls. So there you go, I know it's heresy to a lot of people but I think PROPERLY implemented tone controls can be very useful.
RobbieGong
21-01-2015, 12:44
Have always loved the option of tone controls although the equalizer I currently have in my system :eek: :eek: will eventually go. This will be when I get my hands on a proper big stonky Integrated with top quality componentry, even then I'll likely use the tone controls. I'll never be a slave to the
" you aint an audiophile " or thats not a proper hifi" brigade. It's about enjoying the music first and foremost for me and always will be, each to their own with regard to how they reach that personal joy :)
The Baxandall style tone control fitted to amplifiers of the '40s through to the '70s, are simply too crude to be of much use. Although I have used preamps fitted with them (Sugden C51, Quad 22 and Quad 33), the tone controls were never used: they were always set at 'flat' or 'canceled'. My current preamps (Mark Levison ML-10A, ML-26 and ML-28) are not fitted with tone controls and they are not missed.
Mention has been made of Naim amplifier eschewing tone controls, on the basis the extra circuitry involved degrades the sound quality. Indeed Naim preamps have never been fitted with tone controls - but not for the reasons Naim now claim. Naim products were originally intended for use in a professional environment, where graphic equalisers would be used. That is the reason why the NAC12 preamp dispensed with tone controls, as Naim fully expected and recommended the use of graphic equalisers.
The only form of tone control I have found to be of occasional benefit is the 'Tilt' control of the Quad 44, 34 and 66 preamplifiers. This control, as it name suggests, tilts the entire frequency response up or down by 1, 2 or 3dB, pivoting around a frequency of ~ 1KHz. A tilt of +1dB helps to compensate for some 'thick' sounding recordings, but it is not a panacea. Any more than +/-1 dB is of little help.
However if you find that the judicious use of the 'bass' and 'trebel' controls allow you to increase your listening pleasure, then that is good reason enough to use them.
istari_knight
21-01-2015, 15:42
Forget tone controls, the loudness button is where the action is :eek:
Or the 'Turbo Bass' button that used to be common on portables. Not sure why they had a button for it, did anyone ever use one with the 'turbo' de-selected?
Mr Kipling
21-01-2015, 18:10
my Arcam has electronic ones through the remote. I have on occasion used these and the balance when using different ancillieries and can be useful even if it is in someways heresy to admit it
Burn 'im!
BURN 'IM!!
walpurgis
21-01-2015, 18:38
Forget tone controls, the loudness button is where the action is :eek:
Give over. Graphic equaliser & full tone control boost & loudness button is the only way to go. Driving a pair of ex DJ cabs with twin cone 15" drivers and a bank of Piezo tweeters.
:trust:
I grew up with tone controls, used them during my youth, used them when I got married, used them when I had children and still use them now I am senile and incontinent (doubly). Don't ever tell me that I don't need tone controls! If it sounds good to me THEN IT BLOODY WELL IS!
Mr Kipling
21-01-2015, 19:05
13833
istari_knight
21-01-2015, 19:37
Give over. Graphic equaliser & full tone control boost & loudness button is the only way to go. Driving a pair of ex DJ cabs with twin cone 15" drivers and a bank of Piezo tweeters.
:trust:
:yesbruv:
montesquieu
21-01-2015, 21:55
Who needs tone controls when you can fiddle with brands of valves, caps and resistors, different designs of cables, room treatments, stick on bits to speakers, isolation boards and cones and spikes ... to say nothing of the joys of speaker placement. Spoils all the fun!
Actually I haven't had tone controls for ages and don't miss them. But I'm sure they would add to greatly to the fiddle factor if I ever got any.
The Barbarian
21-01-2015, 22:25
Tone Controls! One of my fav subject :eyebrows:
Al my fav amps have em at least the three amps i use from day to day
The truly dire music centres of the past really did need them... totally rubbish speakers and associated electronics.
Dan D'Agostino (Mr Krell) has them on his latest super expensive preamps but it is just a nostalgic anti-reaction to Mark Levinson who argued the case against them and produced preamps without them many years ago starting a huge trend. Least that is pretty much what Dan said in a video.
Speakers having flat responses in-room? Is the OP joking? Virtually no one has that. Just buy a USB measurement mic and you'll see how wrong that assertion is.
JRiver's PEQ (parametric EQ) is where it is at for tone control or DIRAC for a flat FR and time domain room correction. Tone controls are for beginners (said with a snooty high nosed toff like manner).
The Barbarian
21-01-2015, 22:43
Tone controls are for beginners (said with a snooty high nosed toff like manner).
Next joke please
Next joke please
Well I tried. Do better...
Next joke please
It wasn't a dig on you BTW - I have a Luxman L-435 with - you guessed it - tone controls.
The truly dire music centres of the past really did need them... totally rubbish speakers and associated electronics.
Dan D'Agostino (Mr Krell) has them on his latest super expensive preamps but it is just a nostalgic anti-reaction to Mark Levinson who argued the case against them and produced preamps without them many years ago starting a huge trend. Least that is pretty much what Dan said in a video.
Speakers having flat responses in-room? Is the OP joking? Virtually no one has that. Just buy a USB measurement mic and you'll see how wrong that assertion is.
JRiver's PEQ (parametric EQ) is where it is at for tone control or DIRAC for a flat FR and time domain room correction. Tone controls are for beginners (said with a snooty high nosed toff like manner).
Was Mark Levinson really the first to argue the case against tone controls? You may be right, however in his new incarnation as Cello, Levinson introduced was was probably the most sophsticated tone control/graphic equaliser - the Cello Audio Palette. http://www.celloseattle.com/ctdocs/prodserve/peripherals/audiopalette.html Perhaps he had a change of heart?
http://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/645446-cello_set_audio_palette_and_audio_suite_preamp.jpg
Both preamps in both systems I use have defeatable tone controls. I rarely use them, but on occasions when I'm listening to something lo-fi, like poorly recorded cassette tape, damaged/dusty vinyl or ROIO's, I find being able to switch them in very handy - and judicious manipulation can often give the unpalatable a little more gourmet appeal. And as they're defeatable, they have no sonic penalty if bypassed. Ok, you could argue that if the money spent on the tone control section had been spent on better quality components, a still better sound might have resulted. But as I don't think either preamp was built down to a price, so this argument really doesn't follow.
I've owned many preamps over the years, including those of the hair shirt variety - all things being equal I'd choose to have tone controls available every time.
If you restrict your input to well recorded and balanced music, maybe you have no need of them. But if you restrict your musical input in this way perhaps you're missing some fine and interesting music? Just a thought...
Floyddroid
22-01-2015, 09:27
I find it laughable to be honest that there is a deemed wisdom with regards to this subject. Is there a wrong or a right here? I think not. merely different schools of thought. Like so many of us with the same obsession i have owned copious amounts of equipment including integrated amps and pre amps. Some with tone controls some without. It all depends whether you take the purist or the generic audiophile approach. Been there done that. The truth is there is no right or wrong just different views. I presently use a pre amp and an integrated without tone controls, however, i am now of the opinion that if it works and plays music how i want to hear it that's the one for me. It is merely coincidental that my present equipment haven't got tone controls. There are so many amps out there that do and they sound none the worse for it. I can see the benefits of both especially with dismal recordings. I must confess to a snobbery with regards to the exclusion of such features and that people should not be concerned about the false heresy instilled by strong characters imposing their view. The best advice is to listen and have the confidence of your own concictions, love, hates and style.
Both preamps in both systems I use have defeatable tone controls. I rarely use them, but on occasions when I'm listening to something lo-fi, like poorly recorded cassette tape, damaged/dusty vinyl or ROIO's, I find being able to switch them in very handy - and judicious manipulation can often give the unpalatable a little more gourmet appeal. And as they're defeatable, they have no sonic penalty if bypassed. Ok, you could argue that if the money spent on the tone control section had been spent on better quality components, a still better sound might have resulted. But as I don't think either preamp was built down to a price, so this argument really doesn't follow.
I've owned many preamps over the years, including those of the hair shirt variety - all things being equal I'd choose to have tone controls available every time.
If you restrict your input to well recorded and balanced music, maybe you have no need of them. But if you restrict your musical input in this way perhaps you're missing some fine and interesting music? Just a thought...
The Barbarian
22-01-2015, 15:12
...
Every amp I've ever tried that has had tone controls and a tone control defeat button has sounded better with the defeat button selected; as a result I've concluded that it probably is better not to have them in the first place. In addition, whenever I have tried using tone controls (even Quad's tilt feature) I've found them either inadequate or too crude to do the job - at best they can only adjust the apparent quantity, not the quality.
The purist Malarky is something that Hi-Fi dude cannot get out of their heads. Brain washed comes to mind.
:D
That particular knife cuts both ways :D.
The Barbarian
22-01-2015, 15:46
...
Firebottle
22-01-2015, 15:54
Probably a good job, Marco would be after you :eek:
Every amp I've ever tried that has had tone controls and a tone control defeat button has sounded better with the defeat button selected; as a result I've concluded that it probably is better not to have them in the first place. .
That's pretty much my experience too, although I'm not saying there was much in it. Even my ancient HK930 I think sounds a little better with tone defeat selected, wouldn't want to stake money in a blind test though.
The Barbarian
22-01-2015, 16:55
...
istari_knight
22-01-2015, 17:13
That's pretty much my experience too, although I'm not saying there was much in it. Even my ancient HK930 I think sounds a little better with tone defeat selected, wouldn't want to stake money in a blind test though.
I must be mutt and jeff as I find it incredibly difficult to discern any difference at all... I can maybe hear something if I try really hard & want to believe enough but in regular listening, zilch.
I shall purchase an ear trumpet & try again :D
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/d2/38/ca/d238ca3df765fd751a8d79bd4454f3de.jpg
I reckon there's a lot of listeners who are scared to tweak the tone controls in case:eek: somebody (maybe a member of AOS who had been sent on a mission under cover to Out the heretics) suddenly came round without warning to hear this wonderful system and then they discover that the Bass control is very to the right of centre and the Treble too!!!!!! Or they simply feel that this is NOT what an audiophile should be doing and will go blind if they so much as touch that which should "Not Be Touched at Any Cost", in the same way as w*"king did for the sight of many a poor lad:D
The Barbarian
22-01-2015, 17:56
...
walpurgis
22-01-2015, 18:41
I've put a touch of bass lift on the controls of my JVC AX-A441, just to drive my Usher S520 speakers. It wasn't really necessary, but what the hell.........
First time I've had anything with tone controls on for a generation! Might as well play with them. :)
Gordon Steadman
22-01-2015, 19:35
Ive told you what the issue is: Brain washed sheepism. You can guarenteed the majority of Sheep are in their 40's
:eyebrows:
Baaaah......I'm 68 in a months time. I have never used tone controls in spite of the fact that they have been on a few of my amps. I have two now and they stay resolutely switched out. Even the Quad slope was tried once and abandoned as changing but not improving the sound.
I have just never felt the need. Not everyone that disagrees with you has a fleecy coat Andre.
Geoff....you old devil "it wasn't really necessary"............:lol:. Next you'll be getting your old Nolan Sisters records out.
walpurgis
22-01-2015, 19:46
Baaaah......I'm 68 in a months time.
Poor old bugger. I can't imagine what it's like being that ancient. I'm a mere (and sprightly) 66 3/4 myself. :lol:
I feel positively youthful now:)
Gordon Steadman
22-01-2015, 20:17
Poor old bugger. I can't imagine what it's like being that ancient. I'm a mere (and sprightly) 66 3/4 myself. :lol:
I thought this forum was supposed to be for grown ups!! Bloody kids:ner:
Was Mark Levinson really the first to argue the case against tone controls? You may be right, however in his new incarnation as Cello, Levinson introduced was was probably the most sophsticated tone control/graphic equaliser - the Cello Audio Palette. http://www.celloseattle.com/ctdocs/prodserve/peripherals/audiopalette.html Perhaps he had a change of heart?
Start listening at 10:50.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-1BSHWyTNA
Yeah, that's all very well but the bottom line is he spent the previous 20 years making amps that didn't have tone controls...
The Barbarian
23-01-2015, 13:06
...
Yeah, that's all very well but the bottom line is he spent the previous 20 years making amps that didn't have tone controls...
Aw c'mon he's getting on a bit and feeling nostalgic. Gotta say heard those amps in the video on Wilsons more than once and I wasn't impressed. Some of his amps I've really liked, though.
awkwardbydesign
23-01-2015, 14:37
Yeah, that's all very well but the bottom line is he spent the previous 20 years making amps that didn't have tone controls...
He says he learnt something in those years, and now makes a pre-amp with tone controls. Sounds reasonable to me.
Hmm.. slow learner if it took all that time.
Start listening at 10:50.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-1BSHWyTNA
An excellent vid, so thanks for sharing!
I learned something useful there too, as previously I’d (wrongly) written off Dan’s stuff as ‘blingy badge-fi’, for those with more money than sense. However, after listening to the man himself speak, that’s obviously not the case :nono:
Quite clearly, he has a big passion for audio, talks a great deal of sense, and (tone controls aside) shares many of the design principles I also value in hi-fi equipment.
Marco.
I have hearing loss in both ears, a graphic equaliser makes a big difference to me I can boost those frequencies that are impaired. Taking a hearing test and rediscovering sounds that I had forgotten existed was a reverlation.
Hmm.. slow learner if it took all that time.
What he thinks and what he produces aren't necessarily the same thing. He may have thought it for years. From the video I tend to think that really that is/was the case.
Tone controls were voodoo for many, many years. Why would he want to sacrifice his product's cred by not complying with the hi-fi reviewer's / market expectations?
Give the man some credit and respect. He deserves it. And some of his solid state designs really have been excellent. Truly excellent. Whether you like the sound of them or not is another question.
An excellent vid, so thanks for sharing!
I learned something useful there too, as previously I’d (wrongly) written off Dan’s stuff as ‘blingy badge-fi’, for those with more money than sense. However, after listening to the man himself speak, that’s obviously not the case :nono:
Quite clearly, he has a big passion for audio, talks a great deal of sense, and (tone controls aside) shares many of the design principles I also value in hi-fi equipment.
Marco.
Yeah Dan is alright I reckon. We may well both prefer valve kit by a margin Marco but there are other approaches and IMHO they should be respected whether they fit your tastes and expectations or not!:)
awkwardbydesign
23-01-2015, 18:06
Yeah Dan is alright I reckon. We may well both prefer valve kit by a margin Marco but there are other approaches and IMHO they should be respected whether they fit your tastes and expectations or not!:)
And without him maybe we never have heard of Apogees!
And without him maybe we never have heard of Apogees!
Hm... now who is going to hear of pair of those pretty soon?
Just listening now with some Cunningham CX-345 triodes from the 1920s. Christ does the valve know the meaning of the word "speed" or "immediate". I'm going to serve that one up to you:)
jandl100
23-01-2015, 18:24
As Tom so ably almost says ...
Who needs tone controls when you can fiddle with brands of valves, caps and resistors, different designs of cables, room treatments, stick on bits to speakers, isolation boards and cones and spikes ... to say nothing of the joys of speaker placement. Spoils all the fun!
In my view, anyone who rolls valves, or swaps cables, or carefully sites speakers, or prefers one amp to another, or one speaker to another .... etc etc .... is to a certain extent indulging in tone control tweakery in all but name. ;)
I think they just need to be honest about it. :D
Where is caspiancmonster the original poster? Have we all been had!
As Tom so ably almost says ...
In my view, anyone who rolls valves, or swaps cables, or carefully sites speakers, or prefers one amp to another, or one speaker to another .... etc etc .... is to a certain extent indulging in tone control tweakery in all but name. ;)
I think they just need to be honest about it. :D
I agree to an extent. There are things you get with component changes you don't get with advanced tone control like JRiver's PEQ. Most notably soundstage changes.
jandl100
23-01-2015, 20:22
Yes, of course, you get imaging and dynamic changes as well, for example.
But you sure get to choose your tonality of choice as well. :)
wee tee cee
23-01-2015, 23:29
Had a couple of the troops across today...Brian of this parish suggested that I could try the Capella HPA as a variable setting pre by utilising the headphone output 6.3 mm plug -2 x phono -letting me utilise all the functions of the amp.....mmmm I feel some malarkey coming on!!!
Ninanina
23-01-2015, 23:59
The only amp I've owned that had tone controls was the Quad 33, and I've owned loads of amps.. I think not having them is just one less thing to worry about :)
hifinutt
24-01-2015, 19:18
the last 15 pre amps I had didn`t have any tone controls !!!
The Barbarian
24-01-2015, 19:20
O dear Phil you poor little sausage
:eyebrows:
the last 15 pre amps I had didn`t have any tone controls !!!
Only the last 15 Phil?:lol:
hifinutt
24-01-2015, 19:26
yes trying to catch up with jerry !!!
the last 15 pre amps I had didn`t have any tone controls !!!
I don’t think I’ve had 15 preamps in my whole life!! ;)
Marco.
I'm on my eighth - the first five (Sugden C51, Quad 22, 33 and 44, and the Hafler DH101) had tone controls.
The Barbarian
25-01-2015, 19:21
You don't wanna know how many ive had
:D
caspiancmonster
25-01-2015, 20:04
I had no idea you all where such a lively bunch, this doesn't seem like a topic that would result in so much response. I guess I will add tone controls to politics and religion to the list of approved/disallow family dinner topics (it all depends on what you want to hear) . Thanks for the responses, both on and off topic :)
I would like to clarify that naturally a speaker is not going to measure flat in a real room, just that if you are trying to correct room interactions you might as well start with a more or less linear speaker design.
As for the prevalence of tone controls they have been on all the preamplifiers I have used but that is hardly an exhaustive survey. I think there inclusion does make sense commercially as to many people they add "features" and therefore justify a higher price. I imagine most of the time they are not used but that hardly matters to the manufacturer given the trivial parts cost.
I haven't looked at tone control response curves but I would be greatly surprised if they were able to deal with room resonances although perhaps the sub 200hz room gain could be adjusted. Now I am getting curious, perhaps I will measure the tone controls on my amp before it is decommissioned.
L
RobbieGong
25-01-2015, 21:14
the last 15 pre amps I had didn`t have any tone controls !!!
May I suggest you try one with tone controls - you may not feel the urge to change it ! :lol:
I haven't looked at tone control response curves but I would be greatly surprised if they were able to deal with room resonances although perhaps the sub 200hz room gain could be adjusted. Now I am getting curious, perhaps I will measure the tone controls on my amp before it is decommissioned.
L
Room issues are far too narrow in band for tone controls to have any effect.
hifinutt
28-01-2015, 19:48
May I suggest you try one with tone controls - you may not feel the urge to change it ! :lol:
its an addiction !!! just love trying different pre amps ! had mfa classics mk 1 and 2 silver and copper , ref 5 and ref 5se , purseound L10 , music first baby ref , 3 tom evans vibes , audionote M-one, bel canto pre 3 , cyrus pre xvs , Tisbury passive , fidelity audio 120, and probably forgot some !!!
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