Off axis listening

[worrasf]

Now here's a topic ripe for discussion and controversy
For most of my HiFi life I have sought out
The optimum "central" listening place to place my "listening chair"
usually bang in the centre of the speakers which are slightly "toed in"
But I'm currently listening to one of my favourite Rodrigo y Gabriella CD's
(First one) very "off axis " but without adjusting the balance and it sounds stunning.
It struck me that like as not its because I heard them live in Leeds
a few weeks ago and as is usual at small venues I was standing well to the
side of the centre of the stage (like most folk at most gigs)
so sitting where I am at home tonight "off axis" is more like the "live experience"
I remember and perhaps recreates that previous joy.
Just a thought while o pull the cork on the second bottle of wine
:cool:

[The Barbarian]

Ive never ever set my speakers up *Like they are suppose to be* :rolleyes: Nop i plonk em where i have space, park my arse & listern where ever..

[worrasf]

Oh well - maybe my OCD started much earlier in life than I thought
[emoji40]

[dantheman91]

Ive never ever set my speakers up *Like they are suppose to be* :rolleyes: Nop i plonk em where i have space, park my arse & listern where ever..


Yep.............:)

[agk]

I'm in this line myself right now. I'm too ocd and have after many years decided that I'm happier a few inches off axis.
Seems to give me so much more MUSIC.
If the damn thing needs a tape measure to sound good then you need a rethink man.

[worrasf]

Or maybe the first bottle of wine was corked [emoji33]

[The Barbarian]

Don't get me wrong i have a painful case of OCD but i also have case of rebelling against what ever is suppose to be right in Hi-Fi circles

:D

[worrasf]

Of course it might just be us "oldies" have unilateral hearing loss [emoji15]

[Ronksley]

Of course it might just be us "oldies" have unilateral hearing loss [emoji15]

Mine keeps changing so much so that i had an MRI as each time I went to the ear nose and throat clinic the test results were totally different

For serious listening I am very much one for the hot spot and it annoys me when one ear is blocked and i cant quite find it wish more amps had mono switches and recordings less difference in left and right channels

[worrasf]

My "solution" to this as I do indeed have high tone hearing loss in my right ear after a shooting "incident" is a pair of super tweeters with variable frequency response

[Ronksley]

My "solution" to this as I do indeed have high tone hearing loss in my right ear after a shooting "incident" is a pair of super tweeters with variable frequency response

Sounds like an interesting idea Need to look into what I can do I just assume I aint going to hear anything to high and how high do we need to hear to listen to music.

[YNWaN]

....

[Reffc]

Responding in typically nerdy fashion:eyebrows::lol:

Every speaker has it's own characteristic off axis performance, and together with other (equally nerdy) aspects of performance, affects things like lobing field (dispersion pattern) both vertically and horizontally. Whilst sitting off axis isn't really like sitting off axis at a live gig (it all depends how the live/studio recording was mic'd and mixed) it does reduce the directivity of the response which can result in very uneven frequency response, usually quite drooped towards upper mids and HF. It also alters stereo image. The overall effect may be "less fatiguing" with some types of music and whilst speakers may have a recommended placement/listening position, since the reverberant field of every listening room is different, it's only ever a guide. Experimentation is the only way to get things to your own tastes. Guides are only ever that...from a designer's POV.

Sorry to lower the tone with objectivity!

[worrasf]

Now we're getting this thread going. OCD, deaf and nerdy - gotta love AoS [emoji8]

[The Barbarian]

Do as i do don't believe a single word of what anyone tells you regarding placement

:eyebrows:

[YNWaN]

....

[The Barbarian]

Pretty much anything people on Forums tell you for starters

:rfl:

[Spectral Morn]

Very anal here re mid way position listening, everything checked and double checked, tape measures and spirit levels used etc.

For those who want off axis something like Omni speakers is what's required, say the likes of a Duevel http://www.duevel.com/loudspeaker.htm

Heard Planets and Bella Luna and they sounded very good on and off axis.



Regards Neil

[YNWaN]

.....

[The Barbarian]

tbh ive been considering a pair of vintage omni loudspeakers, i always thought the good uns were far more easy to listern to than direct loudspeakers.

Always wanted a pair of Kolster Brandes 'KS-651'.. The Zenith Circle of Sound omni's were cool too.

[Jimbo]

I listen off axis most of the time as my girlfriend hogs the sofa:lol:

However it is my preferred listening position and gives a different presentation to the music and a different perspective.

[Macca]

I think it depends on whether you are bothered about getting the absolute best you can. Sure it is bollox to say that a bad sound can be turned into a good sound by moving the speeks a couple of inches or toeing in couple of degrees, doesn't seem to stop people suggesting it as a cure for poor sound though :) A good sounding system will still give a good sound with the speakers plonked anywhere, it just won't be giving its best.

I'm pretty careful about speaker positioning (albeit not as much as Neil) but then I am like that plus have a dedicated room so I can muck about to my heart's content.

Got to say if you are getting a better sound sitting well off axis or to the side of the speakers it probably points to something being wrong somewhere.

[Andrei]

I listen off axis most of the time as my girlfriend hogs the sofa:lol:

However it is my preferred listening position and gives a different presentation to the music and a different perspective.

You may wish to edit that Post James. I'm sure what you meant to say is: 'I listen on axis most of the time as my girlfriend hogs the [on-axis] sofa.'

[awkwardbydesign]

My wife and I share the sofa, so we both listen off axis. No choice really, so the speakers are positioned to make it acceptable to both of us. Ideally I would be sat centrally and about a meter further forward, but then where would she sit? One pace behind and over to the left?

[Reffc]

Sitting a metre or so off axis if you'e say 3.5m or more away from speakers shouldn't make a lot of difference if their off axis performance is good, It's when the sweet spot can change by moving your head inches rather than a few feet that things can take a turn for the worst. I think a lot of it is poor or lazy design. There's plenty of drivers out there today that exhibit little or no significant drop off for at least 10 degrees off axis up to say 12kHz or so (in the case of tweeters) and woofers ought not to be run into their "beaming" range as this ruins off axis behaviour. Why is this important? Because in the real world we do not live in anechoic chambers, we listen in rooms with live reverberant fields. The brain is rally good at filtering or compensating for things like slight phase irregularities from reflected sound as long as that reflected sound is approximately to the same level as direct sound at a particular frequency. A bit like ghosting on a TV screen...you can still make out what the picture is. Aurally, it helps preserve a sense of imaging stability amongst other things.

Snell famously used the phenomenon in his early designs (the "K" being one) where his hold grail was to create as wide an off axis response as possible. This, he argued, helped to relax more stringent speaker positioning in real world living rooms, where close positioning to things like side walls might be unavoidable. Anyone who's owned a pair of the original "K's" using Snell's Mk1 crossover design will know just how wide the "sweet spot" is on these and how easy they are to listen to. It's an interesting area of design, sadly not paid as much attention as it ought to be with many more modern designs.

[Spectral Morn]

Mirage make omnis too http://www.miragespeakers.com/products/omnisat-series/ not heard any but they have a good reputation re sound quality



Regards Neil

[worrasf]

Got to say if you are getting a better sound sitting well off axis or to the side of the speakers it probably points to something being wrong somewhere.

Nope - maybe I wasn't clear in the OP. It was just that listening off axis to the RyG album was much more like I remembered the live experience when I saw/heard them do many of the same tunes - I was standing way to the left of centre of the stage throughout.

The majority of my listening is on-axis and I'm happy to report also sounds stonkingly good :D

[The Barbarian]

I listen off axis most of the time as my girlfriend hogs the sofa:lol:



Gotta say i seldom listern to speakers but instead Headsets cos my Missus won't STFU when im trying to listern

[mr sneff]

The layout of my lounge means that most, if not all of my listening is off axis. In the same way that Marco's avatar talks about life having surface noise, life is often off axis. Life doesn't have a 'soundstage' or 'imaging' it just is as it is, IMO these are just an artefact of hi fi systems and listening off axis means one less thing to obsess about.

[Covenant]

Related to off axis listening:
Some people swear by felt pads around tweeters to reduce diffraction. It could be argued that diffraction is a normal listening process and that fitting them fixes your listening position even more.

[Jimbo]

Most live music is listened too off axis as are most aural sounds processed by the human brain. Ok if you have a perfect room acoustic and size in relation to speakers etc it is possible to obtain some benefits in the "Beer" position. However I have had the benefit of listening to a very good system with total control of room acoustics, speaker positioning and control of the audio signals and listening off axis is just as satisfying as the ideal position.

Point in case, at last weeks NEBO5 we listened to a great variety of systems and during the evening listening to vinyl via some fabulous equipment I was very satisfied and indeed entranced by some of the music and that was definitely listening off axis. I did not feel that I had to keep moving around to find a sweet spot. When a system is good enough to portray the music in a believable and realistic way via good recordings and equipment then I think listening position can certainly be flexible.

[awkwardbydesign]

Most live music is listened too off axis as are most aural sounds processed by the human brain.
Isn't that only applicable to amplified music? With acoustic sounds there is no axis, surely?

[Reffc]

Isn't that only applicable to amplified music? With acoustic sounds there is no axis, surely?

+1

With live acoustic/wind instruments and voices, there is some directionality with some instruments (brass etc) and voices to a lesser degree but the relationship as you move off axis is not at all the same as with music played back via loudspeakers which tends to be very much more directional and linear with any given drive unit and where sound pressure levels drop off appreciably. For a decent tweeter for example, one would still expect a 5dB drop off at 30 degrees off axis from say 12 to 15KHz. More for a poorly designed tweeter. That's significant. With an 8 inch woofer, it starts beaming on axis well before 2KHz. There are omni-directional tweeter designs but these can have some of their own issues. All loudspeakers are a compromise. Some are just just less compromised than others. Its for the end user to decide on the degree of compromise and that, generally speaking is when one enjoys listening to music and thinks less about the hifi. Looking at things that way, the whole hierarchy thing becomes a bit of a nonsense at a personal level once you achieve that satisfaction; that might be at a very different level from what others are prepared to accept so there's no right and wrong from that perspective.

[The Barbarian]

most gigs i used to go to all the stage speakers were firing straight forward, stand anywhere in the crowd it sounds just the same....However the music i listern to positioning is unimportant.

[YNWaN]

I don't find that to be true of gigs or ones hi-fi.

[The Barbarian]

:rolleyes:

[Jimbo]

When I go to gigs I find most of the venues acoustics terrible with the sound bouncing round like mad or just a wall of sound.

Symphony Hall in Birmingham is an exception.

Pubs gigs are the best venues for acoustics, no doubt where the sound from each instrument is coming from there :lol:

[The Barbarian]

Symphony hall is amazing but what is hanging from the roof makes me nervous

[Jimbo]

Symphony hall is amazing but what is hanging from the roof makes me nervous

Alien spaceships:lol:

[twotone]

I listen to John Coltrane a lot and he is usually to the left in the sound stage, Miles Davis is the same but he does move about a bit, but Coltrane sticks to the left hand side of the stage.

My Harbeths are fantastic for a wide soundstage so Coltrane is usually over near the left hand corner of the room, he's very rarely in the centre of the sound stage.

[Macca]

I don't like that old-timey 'soloist to the left, drums to the right set up myself. Although doesn't stop me enjoying recordings made like that.

Anyone got Riding With The King - BB King and Clapton? Clapton on the left and BB on the right, if you have a system that imges really well (not mine at the moment) they are both almost in the room with you. Quite uncanny, it is a very good recording (by modern standards ;)).

[awkwardbydesign]

most gigs i used to go to all the stage speakers were firing straight forward, stand anywhere in the crowd it sounds just the same....However the music i listern to positioning is unimportant.

Perhaps your choice of avatar explains why! :lol:
When we used to go to a lot of rock (or similar) gigs, we used ear plugs. It meant we could stand in the empty area in front of the stacks, and actually they made the sound more intelligible! Our favourite venues were places like Manchester's Band on the Wall, where the direct unamplified sound predominated if you sat at the front tables. Imaging was very good when we were that close. :)
I have CD of cello and double bass, where it is very hard to tell who is playing which notes at times, as one player takes over from the other; imaging is the only way I can differentiate. http://www.allmusic.com/album/if-trees-could-fly-mw0000671330

[zanash]

just my opinion of course .....

but off axis listening is ok , if you want to do it .

But your not listening in stereo [as the artist intended you to hear it] and your not listening to your hifi in the way it was designed to be heard . So you perhaps need to ask yourself ...do I need the hifi.

Thats not to say on occasion I've not listened off axis ...but its always very unsatisfying....

I'll never sit in a cinema off to one side ,always trying to get a middle seat for the same reasons.

[awkwardbydesign]

But your not listening in stereo [as the artist intended you to hear it] and your not listening to your hifi in the way it was designed to be heard . So you perhaps need to ask yourself ...do I need the hifi.r


Too much of a blanket statement. It would depend how far off axis, how directional your hifi is, room acoustics and so on.

[agk]

Are hifi components designed for the enjoyment of one person at a time, listening alone? I doubt it and for my tuppence if your system requires you to sit where a tape measure and spirit level dictate then sod it. I'd rather buy a brixton briefcase.

I spent years listening to boxes and not really hearing music.