View Full Version : SL1210 Tonearm Resonance
Hi there,
I know there are about a million threads discussing tweaks and tricks to bring this TT into audiophile territory whereas others will sing it's praises in standard form etc
However, despite a good few days scouring the web I've still not found any specific scenarios where I can say "YES! That's the exact problem I have, now I can fix it"!
So, a bit of background. I'm using trip-amped active Linn amps (Kairn>Klout>Klout>Klout>Keilidh) and for the last few years have been happily using a digital source (MacBook Pro with SSD RAID). Going back further still I use to use a fairly high spec LP12 but really 'gave up' on vinyl as this deck was just too high maintenance for me!
One day it sounded awesome, the next something was off! After a few upgrades I finally moved it on a vowed never to bother with vinyl again....
Move forward a few years and I got an SL1210 for virtually nothing. After having quite low expectations it didn't take long for the Direct Drive bug to bite and I really wanted to find out what his machine was capable of!
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So I upgraded the tonearm cable and plugs. Fitted a recommended mat and changed the feet. For a while I ran a cheap but very impressive AT95E MM cartridge. I've also added a Cambridge Audio 651P phono preamp with subsonic filter turned on.
Recently I decided to up my game a bit and switched to an Ortofon Quintet Red.
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This is where I ran into problems. The sound from this system now is 90% absolutely staggering! However, the underlying problem is that the sound is seemingly muddied by an unnatural deep bass. I've tried repositioning of the TT, Lid on or off etc all the usual stuff but nothing is working. It just seems like the arm is absorbing every single low frequency sound and sending it to the sensitive MC cartridge.
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I have seen some people are rebuilding the Technics arms and adding significant damping material presumably to counter this problem.
So far I find it hard to imagine how anyone could tolerate this effect long term.
Can anyone make any recommendations?
Should I just bite the bullet a dump the tonearm for something a bit more 'audiophile'?
Thanks in advance
Oldpinkman
14-01-2015, 22:29
I think the arm explanation unlikely. Do you have headphones? Do you get the same effect with headphones?
The energy fed to the arm will be the music. The problem with energy in arms is that the arms don't respond the same evenly at all frequencies. That is for sure a problem with the standard arm, but I had an SL1200 here, and would say the arm loses detail and dulls the sound, but not that it creates a heavy bass colouration.
Is it just the ortofon cartridge causing that problem? Have you any way you can try the cartridge in another arm/deck with your system? Can you try another cartridge in your system?
Have you any way you can try the cartridge in another arm/deck with your system? Can you try another cartridge in your system?
Hi,
I only have this deck at the moment. I may consider borrowing something different before throwing any money at the problem.
If I switch back to the Audio Technica cart the problem is still apparent but much less 'intrusive' as the cartridge output is that much higher that the resonances are not amplified anywhere as much.
For example, with the MM cart attached and stylus lowered onto a disc, I can tap anywhere on the TT surface and can just about hear the tap amplified through the speakers but only just. When playing music, the bass is still exaggerated but only slightly.
When running in MC mode, the amplification becomes so much more sensitive that when I tap the TT it is clearly audible. Whilst playing music as soon as a deep bass note is struck or the drummer is using an oversized bass drum I get an unnaturally deep chest punching thud.
I use, and would unhesitatingly recommend, a KAB damper if staying with the original arm. However, there is much wisdom in not throwing too much money randomly until you ascertain the exact cause of problem. Cheap methods for damping the arm include adding a few suitably sized 'O' rings to it or wrapping the arm in Teflon (plumbers) tape. Not only cheap but quick to try. They may not be pretty solutions visually but may help to locate the exact problem which may still be elsewhere, even shelving. Not sure what sort of new feet you've used but there may be scope for further experiment there as well.:)
Oldpinkman
15-01-2015, 06:46
Hi,
I only have this deck at the moment. I may consider borrowing something different before throwing any money at the problem.
If I switch back to the Audio Technica cart the problem is still apparent but much less 'intrusive' as the cartridge output is that much higher that the resonances are not amplified anywhere as much.
For example, with the MM cart attached and stylus lowered onto a disc, I can tap anywhere on the TT surface and can just about hear the tap amplified through the speakers but only just. When playing music, the bass is still exaggerated but only slightly.
When running in MC mode, the amplification becomes so much more sensitive that when I tap the TT it is clearly audible. Whilst playing music as soon as a deep bass note is struck or the drummer is using an oversized bass drum I get an unnaturally deep chest punching thud.
OK. Thanks. As I suspected. What you have described has nothing to do with the tonearm resonances - tube resonances, but is much more likely to do with turntable isolation and record termination. Which mat are you using? Is the problem better, worse, or no different with the standard mat?
I repeat - is it possible to audition on headphones? Is the problem still there?
Whilst changing the arm may improve the sound significantly it may not address this issue, especially if the "problem" is an unfamiliar extended bass from (say) the cartridge. If it relates to turntable isolation then a "good" arm might make it worse (something like the f6 might help.
It's worth trying as many variables as you can before major surgery
Oldpinkman
15-01-2015, 06:50
I don't suppose anybody has an arm resonance plot for a standard sl1200 arm, or a link to one? I've never seen one. My guess would be it would be similar to a linn lv-v.
Hey, thanks for the replies so far.
Which mat are you using? Is the problem better, worse, or no different with the standard mat? I'm using a 'Tonar' 7mm rubber mat. I don't know much about it but it is designed specifically for the 1210. I only had a nasty slip mat which came with the deck so don't have anything else to try at the moment.
I repeat - is it possible to audition on headphones? Is the problem still there? Unfortunately I don't have a headphone amp or headphones to test.
They may not be pretty solutions visually but may help to locate the exact problem which may still be elsewhere, even shelving. Not sure what sort of new feet you've used but there may be scope for further experiment there as well.
I switched the feet out a while ago for Isonoe feet. To be honest I don't think they improved anything sonically but do look a bit better. At the moment the TT is sitting atop a glass topped Ikea unit which also houses my arsenal of amps.
Oldpinkman
15-01-2015, 09:05
No problem
So is the problem better, worse or no different with the slip mat?
I presume the Ikea unit is on the floor. Any chance to get the TT on a wall shelf? Really though, it would be nice to try that cartridge in another different deck in your system. Your "tap" test s
We could try all sorts of things, which you might like, but they don't mean the Technics tonearm resonances are responsible. It isn't the sort of arm I would rush to put a moving coil cartridge in, but there are surely dozens of them out there without this sort of complaint.
If it is a resonance issue, damping the tonearm will address it. It might not be nice, but it should markedly reduce the problem. (Damping seems to be every DIY'ers fix for everything - but it is a funny old band-aid, and often makes the sound "dead". I remember AK experimenting with MDF as an inexpensive "dead" platter material - utterly dire!)
I repeat - changing the arm, would be high on the list of mods I would carry out if I wanted to pursue the SL1200 route - but I'm not sure it addresses this issue (although something like an F6 - with the decoupling the thread bearing offers - might, but that would be more to do with the bearing than the arm tube).
It's so hard when I can't hear it - is it too deep - or are you used to "missing bass"? I'm not sure what sort of budget you were thinking of for an arm upgrade. How would you choose a good one?
If you want to try a cheap mat, try the Resomat?
I assume you are still using the original platter?
I wouldn't change the entire arm, only half of it.
You could try stuffing the arm with cotton wool or ear plugs, as mentioned on other audio forums. Apparently this helps, as does covering g the arm with heatshrink - apparently. I have never tried either.
Different isolation of the deck may also help.
Oldpinkman
15-01-2015, 11:28
I wouldn't change the entire arm, only half of it.
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I'm not sure an FX1200 is currently an option - and retail would be over £1000. Funk is going to get back into Technics mods this year I am given to understand. The Dalek Supreme is once again playing with stuff, so I am biting my tongue to avoid stealing his thunder. But I might be able to get a couple of toys out to you to play with.
And FX1200 doesn't help the isolation issue in the way F6 does. If there is an isolation issue. I can't see a price quoted on the (due to be updated) website - but I think F6 or F6a would be about £450. I don't want to ask atm or i'll never get any bloody work done :(
It's so hard when I can't hear it - is it too deep - or are you used to "missing bass"?
It's too deep. It's unnatural. It's the kind of bass I would expect if I had the system turned up far far louder than it actually is. Digital files sound absolutely perfect (except for being digital of course)
I'm not sure what sort of budget you were thinking of for an arm upgrade. How would you choose a good one?
Well I initially thought about a Linn arm as I was happy with the sound of my LP12, just not happy with other elements of it. However, I find Linn arms nowadays vastly overpriced for the performance they offer. For example, the average clean Ittok LVII sells for more than I paid for my LP12/Cirkus/Valhalla/Ittok LVII.
I have heard a couple of the latest Origin Live offerings and really like them (albeit not on the SL1210). I have also been recommended the SME309.
If I can just sort this resonance issue I will consider between £500 - £1000 for the 'right' arm and then down the road consider the bearing and power supply upgrades.
This boom issue is the only obstacle hampering my enthusiasm at the moment.
It's so frustrating when I can hear such an incredibly perfect sound just dying to escape beneath this occasional veil of sub-bass...
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I'll experiment with the slipmat and placement later on. Even if I can create a 'change' good or bad, it should start to give me some clues!
Failing that I'm moving house next week which could introduce a whole new load of room acoustics issues so I should really hold off for a while before investing too much time or effort :-)
For better isolation, add a set of Techniboots to the Isonoe feet. Mr MCRU may send you a set on "sale or return" to try if you ask nicely.
It certainly helped isolate my deck.
Is there a difference in base between the Tonar mat and slip mat? Which one sounds better?
Is your VTA set up correctly? It's easy to change on the Technics, so may well be worth experimenting with it.
For better isolation, add a set of Techniboots to the Isonoe feet. Mr MCRU may send you a set on "sale or return" to try if you ask nicely.
It certainly helped isolate my deck.
Is there a difference in base between the Tonar mat and slip mat? Which one sounds better?
Is your VTA set up correctly? It's easy to change on the Technics, so may well be worth experimenting with it.
Hiya,
Thanks. How bizarre! Just a few hours after saying I wouldn't invest, I actually just ordered a set of these!
The Tonar mat is definitely an obvious improvement. The slip mat just sounds..meh. Very hard to describe to be honest but as soon as I put the rubber mat on it just seems to sound 'correct'. No real change in the bass resonance.
Yup, Cartridge alignment and VTA I'm totally happy with.
Just about to try some 'experiments'. Will report back later.
My SL2100 with a standard Technics rubber mat seemed pretty bad last time I used it.
Is the Tonar the same type of material?
My SL2100 with a standard Technics rubber mat seemed pretty bad last time I used it.
Is the Tonar the same type of material?
Honestly I don't know. I only got a slip mat with the deck which is really quite bad and doesn't fit properly.
The Tonar is rubber but I would suggest perhaps not as dense as some standard mats.
It's also designed to fit correctly.
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I have SUCCESS!!
As I type this I am honestly listening to one record which sounds truly more amazing than I have ever experienced....
After all this pondering it would seem that the resonance was purely airborne!
Despite the TT being on a solid surface approx. 4 feet away and two feet to one side it MUST have been picking up vibration from a speaker.
After a few minor adjustments I just couldn't get anywhere.
Eventually I tried something I really shouldn't have; I put it on the floor in the middle of the room (albeit on an ikea shelf)!
WOW! I can suddenly turn up the volume and hear some amazing sounds without the bass shaking the room.
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I think this is partly testament to the seemingly limitless ability of my amplification in as much that whatever frequencies you feed it, it has more than enough grunt to faithfully and cleanly reproduce every note without running out of puff!
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Well thanks for the help with this; I've certainly learned something new about the SL1210 today and this will give me quite a head start when organising things in my new listening room.
I've certainly learned something new about the SL1210 today and this will give me quite a head start when organising things in my new listening room.
That's a great result and you should be pleased with that you have identified the problem yourself without unnecessary expense. I often wonder if a lot of the changes/mods people make/recommend aren't taken on a bit prematurely meaning before they've fully explored getting the fundamentals of TT setup right. I eventually realised that isolation is a fundamental for TTs and sometimes the problem is not obvious and I was a slow learner.:doh: For example, I have no doubt there are better performing arms for a Techy but my stock arm, admittedly rewired and damped, provides incredibly deep, tight but appropriate base but a lot of care was taken in isolating, supporting and levelling the deck that the arm is a part of so that it can perform at its best. Of course the Isonoe's, Mike New bearing and quite a few other mods also help but good set up isn't just good cartridge alignment as important as that is.:eyebrows:
walpurgis
16-01-2015, 00:39
this will give me quite a head start when organising things in my new listening room.
New listening rooms are always a learning curve. Nothing ever sounds quite how you expected. Good luck with it. :)
Oldpinkman
16-01-2015, 06:46
Airborne feedback. Oh for a properly designed suspended sub-chassis and a lid. You can't have my pink triangle, but if you do want the other benefits of an arm upgrade I would strongly recommend auditioning an f6.
Also,however much I might tease about airborne interference consider that the more rigid support may have contributed as much as the location. No amount of cotton wool up an arm tube was going to help. Best wishes for the room arrangements.
MikeMusic
16-01-2015, 10:03
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I have SUCCESS!!
As I type this I am honestly listening to one record which sounds truly more amazing than I have ever experienced....
After all this pondering it would seem that the resonance was purely airborne!
Despite the TT being on a solid surface approx. 4 feet away and two feet to one side it MUST have been picking up vibration from a speaker.
After a few minor adjustments I just couldn't get anywhere.
Eventually I tried something I really shouldn't have; I put it on the floor in the middle of the room (albeit on an ikea shelf)!
WOW! I can suddenly turn up the volume and hear some amazing sounds without the bass shaking the room.
-
I think this is partly testament to the seemingly limitless ability of my amplification in as much that whatever frequencies you feed it, it has more than enough grunt to faithfully and cleanly reproduce every note without running out of puff!
-
Well thanks for the help with this; I've certainly learned something new about the SL1210 today and this will give me quite a head start when organising things in my new listening room.
Get yourself some more isolation on the Tech
My favourite is screwed in RDC cones.
May not be enough. You may need to double layer.
EG. RDC on a platform on sorbothane
Get yourself some more isolation on the Tech
My favourite is screwed in RDC cones.
May not be enough. You may need to double layer.
EG. RDC on a platform on sorbothane
Hey thanks.
I already have isonoe feet but to be honest I don't think any amount of isolation would have helped in this scenario short of placing the TT inside an air-tight heavy steel chamber.
The frequencies from the speaker were obviously travelling further and wider than i thought they could and were being absorbed by the top plate/platter/arm/cartridge/motor.
I say again, this was far more apparent when running an MC cart. With MM, the top plate tap-test was just audible through the speakers but when running an MC it was amplified ten fold. Which would make sense considering the MC is about a tenth of the output of the MM and as such needs stronger amplification.
As soon as I placed the deck between the speakers (on the living room floor no less) the problem was gone.
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My plan for the new setup was to have the speakers at the end of the room (opposite to seating position) and have the TT quite close to where i will be sitting - for convenience.
However, I may now have to consider the more conventional route of placing all the Hi Fi kit on a rack / stand between the speakers.
MikeMusic
16-01-2015, 15:18
I'd like the kit right beside me but bowed to the ease of a remote and all on the same wall
Course I could sit in amongst it
:)
You can damp the arm, that would be a modest improvement. Generally I am reluctant to 'improve' the arm. Partly because the 'cure' might be worse, and partly because if you upgrade the arm you have invested time and money for nothing. You can damp the patter and the inside of the chassis. Both of those help. Also placing the isonoes on a slab of granite (or anything massive) will help a small amount.
Regarding your comment of too much bass: hmmm - one man's poison is another man's single malt. Direct Drives are known for great bass. Could you be hearing something that is at once, both unusual (to you) but simply the music as it actually is?
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