View Full Version : Super Tweeters & Tannoy 15" Monitor Golds
Wakefield Turntables
04-01-2015, 19:38
Can anyone recommend a decent super tweeter to use with my 15" MG's.
I have pondered using the st100 super tweeter. Any ideas or comments on the subject would be most welcome.
:)
walpurgis
04-01-2015, 19:45
Depends how handy you are. I've used a number of HF drivers as supertweeters with Tannoy 12" golds. My favourite was the Celestion HF2000. It's smoothness complimented the Tannoy top end very well. I found a 0.2 or 0.1 microfarad capacitor more than adequate to discretely roll the HF2000 in very high.
Wakefield Turntables
04-01-2015, 19:53
Geoff,
Im not that handy altough I'm a quick learner. I intended buying a 2nd hand pair, plumbing them in and then seeing how things went.
I use a pair of Decca ribbons with 12" Golds to extremely good effect. I've got them on top of the cabinets so can slide them backwards and forwards to time align. Having the ribbon vertically above where the Tannoy HF diaphragm is seems to work best. The Deccas have a simple four element crossover.
I wouldn't be without them now, and I have tried other ribbons/tweeters but prefer these Deccas. They're the smaller horned Deccas. Strange thing is if you turn the mains off, which I can do, there's barely anything coming out of their horns. But the effect is substantial - HF yes, but oddly bass is more defined, and in a good way. I have tried them with 15" Golds, and Reds too and they work the same improvement, although I'd say you need a very rigid and inert cabinet for the bass to be improved to its full potential. They won't cure cabinet waffle.
PaulStewart
05-01-2015, 01:00
I have a pair of ST 100s, though they are in the 200's walnut "case". I use the with 12" Golds in Lockwood cabs. I love them and was not surprised by the effect they had on the bass, smoothing it out a lot.
http://www.homebuilthifi.com/images/projects/8326/1.jpg
Though you would have to make them yourself.
Now with upgraded capacitor, wiring and anti-diffraction ring:
http://www.homebuilthifi.com/images/projects/8326/Supertweeter_update_front_and_back_together.jpg
The Black Adder
05-01-2015, 11:26
Yep.. they sound good but I personally couldn't get on with them though with the 12" MG's. Why?... VFM didn't seem to balance. I paid something like £700 for them and I've not missed them.
As been said before, ST's are a 'suck it and see' kinda thing.
I had the ST200's too. They are very cute things I must admit.
I do like ST's, and I really liked them in the Harby SHL5's and the Dali Helicon 800 MKII's (although they were ribbon, much nicer, smoother sound me thinks)... Dunno, maybe they worked better for me in the staggered driver configuration rather than a DC.
btw.. Andrew... have you sorted your cabs yet? - If not then that is where the effort should go in to IMO and not Supertweeters. :)
http://www.homebuilthifi.com/images/projects/8326/1.jpg
Though you would have to make them yourself.
Now with upgraded capacitor, wiring and anti-diffraction ring:
http://www.homebuilthifi.com/images/projects/8326/Supertweeter_update_front_and_back_together.jpg
Ooooh, I like these....tasty!
The driver is an AMT unit and not at all expensive. They are easy enough to make a stand for too.
If you just wanted to try it quickly you could actually just solder on a capacitor and blu-tack them to the speaker baffle - I'm not joking.
Wakefield Turntables
05-01-2015, 20:40
To all that's answered, thanks! It's much appreciated.
Yep.. they sound good but I personally couldn't get on with them though with the 12" MG's. Why?... VFM didn't seem to balance. I paid something like £700 for them and I've not missed them.
As been said before, ST's are a 'suck it and see' kinda thing.
I had the ST200's too. They are very cute things I must admit.
I do like ST's, and I really liked them in the Harby SHL5's and the Dali Helicon 800 MKII's (although they were ribbon, much nicer, smoother sound me thinks)... Dunno, maybe they worked better for me in the staggered driver configuration rather than a DC.
btw.. Andrew... have you sorted your cabs yet? - If not then that is where the effort should go in to IMO and not Supertweeters. :)
Cabs not sorted yet altough I'm probably gonna have sort out, get the cash together and either go down the handmade Lockwood route or have a word with Paul at RFC for some Fidelio's (SIC?). Then, new pre-amp and probably a couple of new monoblocks!
The driver is an AMT unit and not at all expensive. They are easy enough to make a stand for too.
If you just wanted to try it quickly you could actually just solder on a capacitor and blu-tack them to the speaker baffle - I'm not joking.
What sort of cost are we looking at Mark?
I'll find the link - I think you can buy them on eBay UK now for less than £25 each. I'll have a look tomorrow for you.
As super tweeters they punch well above their weight as they have quite a broadband output - they aren't very linear at the bottom end of their range but as a super tweeter the crossover point is way higher than their patchy output level and from 15k to 40K they are more linear than most alternatives (RALL excluded) and have good dispersion too.
The Black Adder
06-01-2015, 08:37
To all that's answered, thanks! It's much appreciated.
Cabs not sorted yet altough I'm probably gonna have sort out, get the cash together and either go down the handmade Lockwood route or have a word with Paul at RFC for some Fidelio's (SIC?). Then, new pre-amp and probably a couple of new monoblocks!
What sort of cost are we looking at Mark?
Sounds like you have your work cut out then, sounds ruddy great!
By all means try some ST's - the ones Mark shows look ideal and to be honest they're more appealing in regards to them being ribbon rather than dome... IMO
Here you go:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dayton-Audio-AMT-Mini-8-Air-Motion-Transformer-Tweeter-275-095-/321628934626?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Speaker_Drivers_Horns&hash=item4ae29411e2
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxNjAw/z/s6MAAOSwyZ5UoX9W/$_1.JPG
-----
The RAAL 130-15D has the best high frequencies I've heard from any driver - but then they are $630 each and rather over the top just to be used as a supertweeter as it's really a tweeter than goes very high (it's not exactly small either):
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/images/products/preview/raal_140-15d.jpg
The Black Adder
06-01-2015, 09:02
That looks superb!... Pricey but well worth it I'd imagine. Ribbons are much nicer than metal dome IMO.
The ST200's are really nice to look at though... lol
http://www.usspeaker.com/images/Tannoy-ST200-Supertweeter.gif
PaulStewart
06-01-2015, 09:45
Yep.. they sound good but I personally couldn't get on with them though with the 12" MG's. Why?... VFM didn't seem to balance. I paid something like £700 for them and I've not missed them.
As been said before, ST's are a 'suck it and see' kinda thing.
I had the ST200's too. They are very cute things I must admit.
I do like ST's, and I really liked them in the Harby SHL5's and the Dali Helicon 800 MKII's (although they were ribbon, much nicer, smoother sound me thinks)... Dunno, maybe they worked better for me in the staggered driver configuration rather than a DC.
btw.. Andrew... have you sorted your cabs yet? - If not then that is where the effort should go in to IMO and not Supertweeters. :)
That looks superb!... Pricey but well worth it I'd imagine. Ribbons are much nicer than metal dome IMO.
The ST200's are really nice to look at though... lol
http://www.usspeaker.com/images/Tannoy-ST200-Supertweeter.gif
As I said I love them with MGs in Lockwoods I have a small room and the bass can be lumpy, but and of course it's all a case of intermodulation, the STs not only give a greater sense of space they smooth the overall response. On talking to my mate who is an ex Tannoy rep, who sold me mine, what I have are the first prodution batch of the ST 200 which have different printing on the top saying Universal rather than Prestige. I was lucky enough to get these from him, with the dedicated VDH cables for £300 and the cables alone were about that at the time.
The thing is they blend so well with the MG sound, I can't recommend them enough.
I’ve always been intrigued by the idea of trying super-tweeters with my 15” MGs, but it’s something I’d have to hear first in my system, before shelling out for a pair, primarily because although no speakers are perfect, to my ears, nothing obviously needs ‘fixed’ with my Lockwoods.
There is no audible lack of top-end ‘sparkle’ or high-frequency extension (quite the opposite), nor do they (or my room) suffer from lumpy bass, and I have no desire to ‘smooth’ their response - all of which sums up why I haven’t gone there yet, as it were, with super-tweeters.
I’m not saying that they wouldn’t make an improvement, but I’d need someone to loan me their pair, or bring some round to try, before I’d commit myself to buying any :)
Marco.
When I added mine (super tweeters that is) I didn't think they altered the bass (though I have read this before) or 'smoothed' the response in the mid. In fact, I didn't think they really did anything other than add a touch of perceived 'air' to the sound and slightly better focused stereo and sense of depth.
The RAAL units are expensive but the ones I used are about £27 each (the small ones I eBay linked to).
When I added mine (super tweeters that is) I didn't think they altered the bass (though I have read this before) or 'smoothed' the response in the mid. In fact, I didn't think they really did anything other than add a touch of perceived 'air' to the sound and slightly better focused stereo and sense of depth.
That’s all I’d be looking for too, Mark. However, the speakers we use are radically different, so there’s no way of me being able to predict the outcome.
The RAAL units are expensive but the ones I used are about £27 each (the small ones I eBay linked to).
Do you have a link to the more expensive RAAL units? Apart from anything else, I like the look of those and think they’d fit well with the Tannoys :)
Marco.
I would have to look up a link for the Raal's. If you just Google the model number it will come up easily. The unit I showed a picture of is intended as a tweeter and not a super tweeter as such (though it extends quite flat beyond 40K. To use it just as super tweeter would be to not use 70% of its capabilities which seems a touch wasteful. Sq225917 (Simon) has a pair of these exact units that he uses with his Yamahas but he has disconnected the standard tweeter. You could also do that with your speakers but it would mean making some pretty major changes! Not much point in a duel-concentric driver with the tweeter disconnected IMO.
RAAL do make a smaller (and cheaper) version but it isn't as linear above 20K so isn't as well suited to being a super tweeter IMO.
Yes our speakers are quite different but there's no reason why just extending the frequency range at the top end should have a different impact.
Indeed, however, Paul’s earlier remark (a Tannoy 15” MG owner himself) about the STs ‘smoothing the overall response’, would worry me, as I wouldn’t be looking to ‘smooth' anything. My system’s all about realism and maximum information retrieval, delivered in an addictive, musical sounding, non-fatiguing way.
Therefore, any further improvement would have to be along those lines. I’ll have a look at the RAAL stuff, but it’s pretty much immaterial, as there’s no way I’d go down that road without listening to their effect first.
Perhaps Paul would loan me his STs, as they should simply be ‘plug & play’ in my system? :)
Marco.
One thing to consider is that most super tweeters actually roll in well before 20K and often overlap the output of the main tweeters - inevitably this will impact upon the subjective balance of the speaker as a whole.
Yup, and precisely why I’d need to hear some in my system first.
Basically what I need is to hear a pair of super-tweeters that I like, then buy whatever they are (as long as it involves a simple ‘plug & play’ solution, in my set-up, with no fannying about), pop ’em in - and after that, simply enjoy! :)
Marco.
Yeah, I concede that - what you need is a commercially made solution that you can try first. I'm really advocating a more DIY route which allows more flexibility and costs less - but isn't for everyone.
-----
RAAL just make drive units and although a few high end speakers do use them I'm not aware of anybody using them to make add on super tweeters (they would retail for thousands).
-----
DIYing super tweeters is one of the easier DIY tasks though as no cabinet is needed as such. Pretty much all tweeters/super tweeters are closed back designs and they don't require any air space behind them. In the majority of cases the crossover consists of a single capacitor wired in series to the + terminal of the tweeter. If there is adjustment it just switches between a number of different capacitor values and if there is a level adjustment it switches resistors. If you look at the model that Tannoy make (for example), most of it is really just a fancy way of holding the tweeter in position - instead of a switch you reposition pins to make the different contacts. They look really nicely made (and I'm sure they are) but you could DIY something that sounds just as good for a fraction of the cost.
Audiosmile make a nice super tweeter and I think can be borrowed for trial.
http://www.audiosmile.com/supertweeter-mkii.html
About £760 a pair though!
Yeah, I concede that - what you need is a commercially made solution that you can try first.
Or get someone who knows 15” MGs inside out (perhaps Paul, from RFC?) to build something for me… You know me, SPPV rules, so I’d rather have the ‘retail for thousands’ performance, minus the price tag!! ;)
Marco.
Yes, I'm sure Paul could make a nice job of it. However, I don't know if he would be prepared to buy the bits and spend all the time making them on a trial before purchase basis (as it isn't a product he already does) though - you would have to ask him...
No, I wouldn’t expect him to either - nor would I do that… There are compromises that perhaps could be considered, though! ;)
Marco.
A few interesting points raised here folks and I'll throw in a few considerations for anyone considering this approach:
- getting supertweeters to integrate properly is not as easy as sitting any old ST atop a speaker and expecting miracles. As Mark has pointed out, MOST subjective opinions on supertweeters by people who've tried them invariably forget that the ST is probably (definitely) crossed over with a very large band overlap with the main speaker tweeter (usually between 10 and 16 KHz) so what they're not hearing is "effects of harmonics from frequencies above 20KHz", it's simply a raised high frequency response. it only needs raising by 1 or 2db above 10Khz to give a very definite impression of "air and space" which can become tiring with some recorded material (because it is a raised response).
- some super tweeters can mess up dispersion within the overlapping frequency band and cause comb filtering within the HF section. As traditionally they have been treated as an "add on" for many years, they are not properly integrated into baffle design so wont actually do anything good for imaging accuracy...that's just plain physics. What subjectively is thought will depend very much on the speaker they're used with and the room they're in;
- Ribbons are more popular in some camps but have a poor off axis response so need to be listened to on-axis. They have a lot of redeeming features, but personally, I favour a good quality dome (contrary to popular urban myth, a decent dome is the superior design, has wider dispersion etc etc);
- sensitivity has to be matched. Some STs are provided with level adjustment for subjective assessment and variation of output level via L-Pad or multiple L-Pad (some use carbon wipe potentiometers for this).
If your own speakers are accurate to 20kHz (ie flat) then a supertweeter shouldn't be necessary. We talk about supertweeters as if everything they do is above the audible spectrum, but most are kidding only themselves as the evidence points towards simply augmenting the treble units in the audible band by lifting tweeter response. If you can immediately hear a super tweeter then most likely it's crossed over well within the audio band.
Personally, I consier them of limited value if the tweeters in speakers are correctly implemented. What they can do is make up a little for poor dispersion design of existing tweeters or baffles by removing them from baffle constraints and allowing their directivity to lift response back to a flat response if the seating position is off axis (ie you can point the supertweeter at your ears!). Toe-ing in the speakers should have a similar result if they are at the right height and the tweeters are functioning properly.
As Mark suggests, I could make them up very easily but not for trial and on the strict understanding that it would be more an experimental route for the customer than a guaranteed route for all the issues mentioned above.
walpurgis
07-01-2015, 10:49
Having used numerous supertweeters in various configurations (forward firing/upwards/backwards angled up), all I can say is that nothing is predictable. I've found that the higher they are rolled in (filter curve), the better. If you can actually hear noticeable output from the supertweeter connected on its own, then something is likely not right. What you should be able to detect when listening to them in system is a change when they are disconnected. It is usually quite noticeable. Changing from 'correct' phase to reverse phase also has interesting effects. The best thing is to experiment until the supertweeter has a subtle, but beneficial contribution (if ever). Sometimes they are not worth bothering with. I haven't used them for years, but I'm toying with the idea of having another go.
PaulStewart
07-01-2015, 11:07
Pehaps "smooth" is the wrong word 'cos they don't detract from the suberb MG attack in any way. A lot of the percieved "realness" of music reproduction is, as research has has shown, about the intermodulation of frequencies. A lot of that is the intermodulation of frequncies both ultra bass and ultra treble with the audible range. The intermodulation product is there and greatly enhances our perception of the music. One of the resons CD never quite makes it for me is the brick wal, filters at 20Hz and 20kHz. STs and not just with Tannoys make the sound, more coherent, shall we say. Marco, if you were nearer I'd bring them over, may be in your neck of the woods later in the year, if so I'll bring them. You are always welcome here for a listen and a cuppa. Can't offer food I'm still on the 1200 calorie a day diet :( Mind you I'm 4 1/2 stone down now :yay: 3 more to go.
montesquieu
07-01-2015, 12:04
FWIW I tried several pairs of supertweeters with the Tannoy 15in MGs/GRFs - Townshends, Tannoy ST50s, Audiosmiles (factory set up), and some ebay cheapos I can't remember the name of.
All of them added something, which was typically enjoyable for a bit, but I got tired of whatever it was fairly quickly in all cases and sold them on. I kept trying different brands to see if anything would be a keeper. None were. Though I can see the attraction perhaps if someone's hearing is down a bit in the HF.
I don't reject supertweeters totally. With Quad ESLs - I suspect due to their limted HF response - Townshends in particular worked superbly. They also worked pretty well on some Fostex single driver folded horns, but again these had limited HF response about about 10khz.
My conclusion - properly sorted Tannoys don't need them as they go well beyond most people's hearing without any bolt-ons. Lesser speakers might benefit. I'm also of the view that what they are mainly doing is generating a lift in the audible frequencies - I don't buy the bat-sensor mystical properties of inaudible vibration theories.
Pehaps "smooth" is the wrong word 'cos they don't detract from the suberb MG attack in any way. A lot of the percieved "realness" of music reproduction is, as research has has shown, about the intermodulation of frequencies. A lot of that is the intermodulation of frequncies both ultra bass and ultra treble with the audible range. The intermodulation product is there and greatly enhances our perception of the music.
Hmmm...perhaps, except that intermodulation takes place within the original music source and the signal carries these effects within the audible band. Merely adding something onto a speaker which reproduces frequencies above that band does not interact in the same way at the output end (just stating facts...not opinion)...it messes up the dispersion and has different field lobing characteristics some of which might act to filter any intermodulation response, so it's not strictly speaking true to suggest that what we hear is anything like accurate. Far better to choose a speaker with a main tweeter that can climb higher up in the first place if you subscribe to the subjective theories on intermodulation effects...far better in fact. Best way perhaps of accepting what they do is to accept a combination of elevated HF response and a changing of field lobing patterns for HF which alter perception of sound at higher frequencies. However, all this theoretical conjecture doesn't mean much to those liking the effects so as with other areas of audio, it's an area for experimentation, trial and error, as long as one accepts that adding ST's is more about adding possible effects than ensuring accuracy. (Not everyone will agree on what they hear or indeed if they hear any effects and blind testing is perhaps the only reliable way to determine if its worth the effort?).
Paul raises a number of points I rather glossed over earlier in my enthusiasm. I have to say, my experience of super tweeter use is almost entirely based on my use of the ones I made. I didn't mention this earlier but when I chose to use the AMT driver I did it was because it had the right impedance and sensitivity to match to my tweeters plus it had reasonably good off-axis performance (which as Paul says is often poor from ribbons). Also, although mine look to only use a single capacitor (1st order) to roll them in it's actually not as simple as that and they actually have a steeper slope (most commercial tweeters use a 1st order, very shallow, slope. Also, I knew (from measurement) that the tweeters in my Yamahas, although well integrated to the mids, roll off quite steeply, but smoothly, above 15K. Even then, I did find positioning, angle and phase to make quite a big difference.
I looked at one commercial offering yesterday with adjustable crossover points. The highest was 20K but the lowest was only 10K which is hugely within the audible spectrum snd if it uses a 1st order crossover there will be significant output well below that
----/
As Paul writes, I don't really see how addition of a ST can improve inter modulation distortion except perhaps by reinforcing leading edges - even then it's just disguising it rather than improving the problem.
----/
Regarding costs - well I had to buy the tweeters and the crossover components and some wire, but I happened to have the Corian and acrylic I used, plus all the sundry bit. I also happened to have access to the CAD I used and the workshop and laser cutter I used. I didn't charge myself for the design or labour etc. But if I had charged for materials, equipment and time they would have been quite an expensive experiment.
The Black Adder
07-01-2015, 12:39
My conclusion - properly sorted Tannoys don't need them as they go well beyond most people's hearing without any bolt-ons.
I have to concur with that... Properly sorted cabs, crossovers, cables (and then onward through the rest of the chain) should be more than enough. The thing I liked about the ST's was that they 'seemed' to give more air to the image... I didn't hear any differences in SQ. Mid-band was untouched IMO too.
People hear different things though depending on systems and rooms. As I said before, if you can afford to try them, Andrew then give em a go... it's certainly worth it.
PaulStewart
07-01-2015, 14:02
In an ideal eorld one would have a wide band driver that went beyond 20kHz in the case of MGs we don't so if we want wide band, then a properly sorted ST, designed to intergrate with the MG DC set up such as the ST200 is essential. With many musical instruments such as brass and violins producing harmonics well above the 20kHz audible band, the to allow the brain to perceive the "intermodulation product" one needs to get that greater bandwidth. Just stating fact, as proved by research carried out in the 1980s. In fact the work of Holliman in the UK and others here in Japan and the US (I played a small part in this myself) showed that to give the best sense of "realism" and indeed percieved accuracy, a bandwidth of 10Hz to 50kHz was ideal.
That said, you put your kit together and listen, if you like it great, if you don't experiment till you do.
That said i
The Black Adder
07-01-2015, 15:45
Why not give these a try...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bespoke-Aria-Gold-SE-Isodynamic-Ribbon-Super-Tweeters-Tannoy-Speaker-Upgrade-/321636222911?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276
£175 - can't be bad really. They say they are better than the ST200's.. .well, they have to say something I suppose.
I wouldn't mind giving them a go in the future too.
Ali Tait
07-01-2015, 16:13
I think Bentley might get a bit upset at the logo theft..
The Black Adder
07-01-2015, 16:44
lol.. yes, it's plagiarism if I ever saw it... and quite naff. Apart from that they could be a good buy.
...Wonder if they come with a sovereign signet ring and a fake Oyster perpetual Rolex?... lol
Why not give these a try...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bespoke-Aria-Gold-SE-Isodynamic-Ribbon-Super-Tweeters-Tannoy-Speaker-Upgrade-/321636222911?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276
£175 - can't be bad really. They say they are better than the ST200's.. .well, they have to say something I suppose.
I wouldn't mind giving them a go in the future too.
Then they go and stick the driver into the end of cylinder :doh: (about the very "best" shape for encouraging comb filtering from refraction). I'd be very wary about believing any unsubstantiated claims from anyone who thinks that baffle shape as a good way to go...
Of course, if they have the measurements to prove it?
You can buy that very driver on its own elsewhere on eBay. When I was looking for a suitable driver it was clear that not all HF drivers actually have usable output above 20K and if they do it is sometimes very uneven - this includes ribbon drivers.
walpurgis
07-01-2015, 17:17
They appear to be this unit: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hi-Fi-Ribbon-Tweeter-very-high-quality-square-plate-/380931524784?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Speaker_Parts&hash=item58b149c8b0
So you're just buying an expensive bit of tubing with one stuck in the front. The tweeter seems to be a shallow closed back unit, so everything behind it is redundant, apart from propping it up.
The Black Adder
07-01-2015, 17:19
Then they go and stick the driver into the end of cylinder :doh:
lol... doh! :lol:
walpurgis
07-01-2015, 23:54
Anybody wishing to try Supertweeters on the cheap, may be interested in these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221409409878?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
The seller is reliable. I've had good service from them. There's no response graph shown, but if I recall correctly these little Phillips units extend up to 30kHz or more. Ideal. Sensitivity is useful too.
Just found this:
http://i60.tinypic.com/2m2gkm9.gif
I believe it's the right one.
Hi Paul,
Pehaps "smooth" is the wrong word 'cos they don't detract from the suberb MG attack in any way. A lot of the percieved "realness" of music reproduction is, as research has has shown, about the intermodulation of frequencies. A lot of that is the intermodulation of frequncies both ultra bass and ultra treble with the audible range. The intermodulation product is there and greatly enhances our perception of the music. One of the resons CD never quite makes it for me is the brick wal, filters at 20Hz and 20kHz. STs and not just with Tannoys make the sound, more coherent, shall we say. Marco, if you were nearer I'd bring them over, may be in your neck of the woods later in the year, if so I'll bring them. You are always welcome here for a listen and a cuppa. Can't offer food I'm still on the 1200 calorie a day diet :( Mind you I'm 4 1/2 stone down now :yay: 3 more to go.
Well done on the diet, mate - you must feel very different! :)
If you’re over my neck of the woods later in the year, swing over with the STs. Paul’s certainly given me some food for thought (in terms of the very important issue of integration), but I need to hear some super-tweeters first in my system, in order to form some type of opinion on them. At the moment, they’re simply an unknown quantity.
If I really liked the STs, I’d just buy a pair, but I also fancy the idea of taking a punt on something bespoke that Paul could build for me, as I suspect that’s where the real SPPV would lie… If or when I’m ready to go ahead with that, I’ll contact him for some approximate costings.
Marco.
Yes we ell done Paul. It is a very difficult thing to stick to
BTH K10A
08-01-2015, 06:16
The JBL 045Be is a good option if you can find them.
Very few were sold over here but I did manage to pick up a set in Brighton for £300 with the intent of swapping the drivers with the 045Ti's in my Array 1400's. Like a lot of things I never got around to it as I was waiting to find a pair of 035Be's as well and sold them on. I probably should have held on to them as they are a very flexible package.
http://yahoo.aleado.com/lot?auctionID=l279598761
I guess (at least I’m presuming) it would make most sense going for horn-loaded tweets, with Tannoy DCs themselves being horn-loaded, or is that bollocks? :)
Marco.
No, as you say, that's bollocks.
Lol - fair enough… In that case however, I can’t see why using a horn-loaded super-tweeter would be ‘worse’ than any other type (in general I am a fan of horn-loading in speakers, when done well). Therefore, I’m sure that some could be integrated for use with my speakers just as well as dome or ribbon types, no?
In that respect, the JBLs Andy linked to look great (I’m also a big fan of JBL, in general) :)
Marco.
Well the purpose of horn loading is to raise efficiency or alter dispersion rather than look cool...
I suppose it depends if "looking great" supersedes purpose in terms of importance.
Anyway, I'm sure Paul (RFC) would consider performance to be the primary decider and whether to use horn loading would depend on the driver he chose to use (rather than doing it the other way round).
Indeed, and of course I fully agree. However, if a pair of those JBLs came up on ebay, I’d be sorely tempted to take a punt! :)
Marco.
The pros and cons of horns are:
Pros:
Horn mounting allows more scope for time alignment...err...that's it!
Cons:
very directional but then again most supertweeters at extended frequencies tend to be very directional;
More expensive.
Can be less linear with frequency.
Ok...lets look at some hard facts RE supertweeters, especially of the bolted on variety:
To get them inegrated is almost impossible as the higher you go, the narrower the angles in between the (anti) phase nulls. In plain English, this means at higher frequencies (say above 15KHz) it's practicably impossible to get them properly summed. What actually happens (and really the best you can hope for) is that the interference patterns created become denser which creates an averaged response which can be said to be fairly evenly distributed, but relative phase will be out.
That's why most people, even if using super tweeters crossed over high may not notice much HF lift BUT will always usually comment on "air" or "space" and this, I would argue (and so would most loudspeaker designers....and those of a more scientific disposition) is responsible for the reported extra "air" and "space". As Tom reports, as I have found myself, and many others have found, this is a novelty to begin with (rather like listening to an out of phase tone on a test LP) but soon becomes tiring. precisely because it is out of phase summing, the human hearing hears exactly that. Because it's so far up the audible spectrum (as long as the crossover is up there too) then it is less noticeable as being objectionable at first...just "different" and "obvious".
Add to that the field lobing pattern changes and interference (because you will not be able to align the centres of your tweeter and supertweeters as close as they need to be) and the sum of the whole is actually quite a mess.
That is why I said in an earlier post that for conventional speakers, choosing one with extended frequency response if you actually believe that it makes any difference (and for me it is not a belief system). That the signal of an LP source carries high frequency info IF the LP is fresh and in good condition and the cart is capable of extending that high without distortion. The intermodulated harmonic effects are ALREADY present in the audible spectrum (which those favouring dubious arguments for supertweeters may conveniently be choosing to ignore I think), then recreating anything above 20Khz is a waste of time. For most of us in middle age, recreating anything much over 16KHz is actually (probably) a waste of time as our hearing rarely achieves better than that once in our late 40's/early 50's.
Whilst I am still happy to create whatever any customer wants me to build for them, in the case of supertweeters, the above are the cold hard facts (from an objectivist's position and a designer's position that is;)), so you commission a build in the full knowledge that what I have outlined above should influence your decision (ie have these things designed and built at your risk in terms of what you think they will do for you). For those who don't understand the principles, I would hesitate to agree to build them because I would feel that to be dishonest, as my own view is that all they do is mess up response and add out of phase elements which actually ruins upper HF response.
That's my honest view as a designer, and no amount of subjective debate will ever change that view, so I'd just urge anyone reading this to proceed with caution and try and establish the facts for themselves. The companies who build these things NEVER give integrated phase response or the effects of field lobing data. If they did, they'd never sell any. Go figure.
I hear you loud and clear, Paul! I also appreciate exactly where you’re coming from.
However, they've worked superbly for Simon and Mark, on speakers that weren’t originally designed for use with super-tweeters… How so, one wonders, given what you’ve just written? :)
Marco.
I think Paul is too polite to say but I suspect that what he is thinking is that there are occasions when a combinations of wrongs can be perceived as a right :).
To be honest, I really have very little issue with everything Paul has written even though it questions the work I have done. Particularly, as he says, our actual ability to perceive very high frequency content is very open to question as is the question of actual content! In fact, I think the reason that super tweeters seem so apparently forgiving of integration issues (Paul makes entirely valid points on this) is that there is so little actual information on the recording that can be reproduced at these frequencies.
At least one person I have A/B demonstrated my super tweeters to couldn't hear them doing anything at all - worth considering.
I think you’re probably right, as is Paul. Trouble is, it hasn’t stopped you enjoying the benefits that fitting super-tweeters have brought to your speakers and system, as I’m pretty sure they haven’t been imagined! ;)
Also, knowing you, I suspect that they’ve been achieved as a result of a genuine improvement you’ve made, and not simply a ‘happy accident’, arrived at by creating a euphonic effect that isn’t real.
Therefore, that along with positive results being claimed by others who’ve used/are using super-tweeters with their speakers, makes me curious to see whether I could get a slice of the cake. If not, hey-ho, it’s not as if mine are broken (far from it), but you don’t get anywhere in this game without sometimes ‘pushing the envelope’ and indulging your gut instinct…
Marco.
BTH K10A
08-01-2015, 22:11
My Array 1400's use the 045Ti which is the Titanium diaphragm version of the 045Be. It's crossed over from the mid range horn at 8kHz but goes out to 40kHz so there's a lot of flexibility on where the crossover point could be.
Again they are not common but there may be some available here http://www.rueegsegger-acoustics.ch/Website_3/JBL.html Scroll down a bit to find. I don't know how much 390.- CHF is in £'s but I assume it's for a single.
As mentioned previously the Romagna / Decca Kelly ribbon tweeters make excellent supertweeters but efficiency is on the low side. The Fane 701 twin ribbon tweeter has better efficiency but is much harder to find.
If you really want cool then you need some of these http://www.acapella.de/en/hornspeakers/ionic_tweeter.php and a big wallet.
The Acapellas do look cool, Andy. How much are you talking? :)
Marco.
walpurgis
08-01-2015, 22:41
:) I'm waiting to see the price on these.
Acapella stuff is mega dear. Their tweeters are amongst the best in the world.
I’ve never heard of them before. The only problem I have with some of the ‘high-end' stuff is what percentage of the price tag represents ‘brand/badge desirability’, and how much the market will stand, as it were, on that basis. ‘Cachet’ value comes into it, too.
I dislike paying for anything in hi-fi that isn’t directly related to out-and-out audio performance or (sensible, not OTT) build quality, plus a reasonable fee for someone’s work. I’m simply not interested in paying for anything else, least of all a ‘fancy badge'!
Marco.
walpurgis
08-01-2015, 22:50
Here's a site with the Acapella range:
http://www.audiolimits.com/html/acapella_speakers.html
Beautiful stuff. The tweeters are $18,000 a pair by the way. :eek:
I've heard the Violon a couple of times. Sensational!
Their tweeters have no diaphragm, just an energised plasma 'plug', so more or less zero mass. Fantastic. Fane made something similar in the sixties and Magnat used an amazing looking plasma globe tweeter.
Madness - that’s substantially more than my whole speakers cost, with mods and everything :mental:
Like I said, how much of that price tag reflects what *really* matters, and how much is represented by what I’ve outlined above?
Marco.
BTH K10A
08-01-2015, 22:56
http://www.orpheusaudio.gr/content/ion-tw-1s-ionic-tweeter
Price in Euros but I'm not sure if this is for one or a pair
The 045Ti is a better value option and apart from a Titanium diaphragm as opposed to a Beryllium on it's othewise the same as the 045Be found in the Everest D66000
walpurgis
08-01-2015, 23:00
Madness - that’s substantially more than my whole speakers cost, with mods and everything :mental:
Like I said, how much of that price tag reflects what *really* matters, and how much is represented by what I’ve outlined above?
Marco.
The best costs. These are probably the best supertweeters money can buy.
Yes, but only when ‘the best’ *is* actually ‘the best’ - where it matters! ;)
Some would say the kind of gear that Absolute Sounds sell is ‘the best’. I wouldn’t touch any of it with a bargepole, as most of it is complete rip-off, designed for those with more money than sense.
For example, how much do a pair of Magico speakers cost? Would you swap them for your Tannoys? I suspect not… I certainly wouldn’t swap mine for them!
In that respect, I’d like to know what’s so special about the Acapella super-tweeters that makes them cost what they do, and exactly how they arrived at that price tag - crucially how much of it is represented by 'pure audio performance’, not frippery, marketing or badge snobbery.
Marco.
BTH K10A
08-01-2015, 23:09
Here's a site with the Acapella range:
http://www.audiolimits.com/html/acapella_speakers.html
Beautiful stuff. The tweeters are $18,000 a pair by the way. :eek:
I've heard the Violon a couple of times. Sensational!
Their tweeters have no diaphragm, just an energised plasma 'plug', so more or less zero mass. Fantastic. Fane made something similar in the sixties and Magnat used an amazing looking plasma globe tweeter.
Apparently Acapell solved the Ozone issue so your pot plants and small animals will survive :D
There's a great site about plasma tweeters here http://www.roger-russell.com/ionovac/ionovac.htm
walpurgis
08-01-2015, 23:11
I've heard some of the Acapella speakers Marco and they really are something out of the ordinary, very special indeed.
Rather like the Avantgarde speakers, which I always think of when I see Acapellas. They have similarities in appearance. Both makes are wonderful.
I’ll take your word for it, Geoff, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they *have* to cost as much as they do. That’s what I’m getting at. I’ll give you another example, how much is a brand new pair of Tannoy Westminsters - £90k?
How much better sonically do you think they are, compared with your Tannoys, considering the humungous difference in price? ‘The best’ sometimes is priced accordingly, but not always for the right reasons! ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
08-01-2015, 23:13
Apparently Acapell solved the Ozone issue so your pot plants and small animals will survive :D
There's a great site about plasma tweeters here http://www.roger-russell.com/ionovac/ionovac.htm
Hearing plasma tweeters is an experience not forgotten.
montesquieu
08-01-2015, 23:15
I think Bentley might get a bit upset at the logo theft..
My thought as well!
BTH K10A
08-01-2015, 23:16
Yes, but only when ‘the best’ *is* actually ‘the best’ - where it matters! ;)
Some would say the kind of gear that Absolute Sounds sell is ‘the best’. I wouldn’t touch any of it with a bargepole, as most of it is complete rip-off, designed for those with more money than sense.
For example, how much do a pair of Magico speakers cost? Would you swap them for your Tannoys? I suspect not… I certainly wouldn’t swap mine for them!
In that respect, I’d like to know what’s so special about the Acapella super-tweeters that makes them cost what they do, and exactly how they arrived at that price tag - crucially how much of it is represented by pure ‘audio performance’, not frippery or badge snobbery.
Marco.
By modulating a plasma flame they are virtually distortionless so from a sound point of view they are the best.
You could always make your own but you really need to know what you are doing you will need to ventilate the house on a daily basis http://www.plasmatweeter.de/eng_plasma.htm I also think the method of striking the plasma flame is a bit scary
Lol - you know what I’m getting at though, Andy!
Marco.
walpurgis
08-01-2015, 23:18
I’ll take your word for it, Geoff, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they *have* to cost as much as they do. That’s what I’m getting at.
Marco.
I don't know if they 'have to' cost as much as they do, but they are tricky to make and complex. The development costs should be taken into account on a product that is likely to be made in relatively smallish production runs too.
If you ever get the chance to hear Acapellas (or Avantgardes) do it. You will definitely be impressed.
But you're probably right. I'd hang on to my Tannoys and keep the change. ;)
walpurgis
08-01-2015, 23:24
By modulating a plasma flame they are virtually distortionless so from a sound point of view they are the best.
Presumably, the top end extension is approaching limitless. I wonder how far it goes up? Just limited by the minute plasma mass and air resistance I guess.
I don't know if they 'have to' cost as much as they do, but they are tricky to make and complex. The development costs should be taken into account on a product with what is likely to be made in relatively smallish production runs too.
You see, understandable as that is, that’s the sort of shit I’m not interested in paying for, as it’s got little to do with sound quality, which is why I’d rather someone suitably knowledgeable (a bespoke, ‘unknown’ manufacturer [in comparison], unaffected by such commercial costs) builds something comparable, which achieves 90% of the performance, but at a fraction of the price. SPPV rules!! :exactly:
If you ever get the chance to hear Acapellas (or Avantgardes) do it. You will definitely be impressed.
Noted :)
Marco.
walpurgis
08-01-2015, 23:32
While we're at it. Here's the Avantgarde website.
http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/home.html
Look at these beauties. They sound even better than they look! :)
(you'll note the similarity with Acapella)
BTH K10A
08-01-2015, 23:37
Lol - you know what I’m getting at though, Andy!
Marco.
Yes I do Marco and the price would certainly be hard to justify for most people but to some it is just pocket change which is why the luxury market prevails no matter what happens to the economy. I always measure things on how many days I have to work to afford them. It's a test that can be applied no matter what your income and when it comes to supertweeters I know how many days that is.
I also understand that they are hand made and the business model probably works best to keep them exclusive with a decent profit margin rather than trying to recover the expenditure it would take to set up for mass production with volume sales and a lower price and margin.
Absolutely, and I agree with every word of that. However, regardless of how much money I had, I’d ALWAYS ‘think smart’ and seek maximum ‘bang for buck’ with hi-fi. It’s just the way that my head is wired. Even if I won the Lottery, I still wouldn’t change or abandon my principles! :nono:
Marco.
BTH K10A
08-01-2015, 23:46
While we're at it. Here's the Avantgarde website.
http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/home.html
Look at these beauties. They sound even better than they look! :)
(you'll note the similarity with Acapella)
Strangely the Avantgarde's are one of the few horn loaded loudspeakers that I don't like. I've only listened to the uno's and Duo's and I felt that while the midrange and above was very good the integration with the bass speaker just did not work. I suspect they use small dia. long throw drivers and are more like a typical overdriven subwoofer. I've not heard the TOTR ones with the horn loaded bass bins but I expect that they will be a lot better.
walpurgis
08-01-2015, 23:51
Strangely the Avantgarde's are one of the few horn loaded loudspeakers that I don't like. I've only listened to the uno's and Duo's and I felt that while the midrange and above was very good the integration with the bass speaker just did not work. I suspect they use small dia. long throw drivers and are more like a typical overdriven subwoofer. I've not heard the TOTR ones with the horn loaded bass bins but I expect that they will be a lot better.
I've only heard the Trio model (a few times) and they were wonderful, so neutral and uncoloured (especially for a horn). The transient response seemed stunning.
I hear you loud and clear, Paul! I also appreciate exactly where you’re coming from.
However, they've worked superbly for Simon and Mark, on speakers that weren’t originally designed for use with super-tweeters… How so, one wonders, given what you’ve just written? :)
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Marco.
The Black Adder
09-01-2015, 07:51
I can imagine they sound stunning.. never the horn myself. :eyebrows:
I've heard Acapella speakers, equipped with their plasma tweeters, a number of times and have always been struck by the quality of the upper octaves. However, I've been less wowed by the rest of the reproduction. On the other hand, I've also heard Avantgarde speakers a number of times and they weren't 'my thing'.
Nor mine - too much horn coloration for my liking (as I guess one would expect), but I appreciated what they did well. I tend to like speakers that, for me, combine the 'best of both worlds’, as it were, which is why I like a cone and horn combo, a la Tannoy DC.
Extremes of anything in audio, for me, rarely hit the spot, as you can usually hear the obvious compromises taken, in order to excel in specific areas of the sonic reproduction spectrum.
Marco.
Marco, I really don't think that your system needs super tweeters. I agree with Paul. It's also admirable that he is talking you out of spending money with him on this. If it were me looking to improve what you already have, and that is a tall order, I'd look at passive room treatment. Ideally you should look at getting those speakers in a more optimal room, because I think they would have a lot more to give set up in an optimal environment. But failing that a bit of passive treatment to stop the sound 'bouncing' around when playing at volume.
Yeah sure, I completely agree on all counts (especially on the fact that I don’t ’need’ them), but that doesn’t stop me being curious! :eyebrows:
However, it’s certainly not something that I’ll be entertaining doing for a while, unless someone like Paul (Stewart) lets me hear his :)
Marco.
Beobloke
09-01-2015, 10:03
I’ll give you another example, how much is a brand new pair of Tannoy Westminsters - £90k?
.
£24k actually.... http://www.audioemotion.co.uk/tannoy-westminster-royal-se-loudspeakers-459-p.asp
Ah, a veritable bargain then! Actually, they must’ve come down in price, as I seem to remember the Canterbury SEs, at one point, being about £40k…
Anyway, I've also heard Tannoy’s ‘flagship’ speakers, at Whittlebury (can’t remember their name), which I think cost nearer to the price I mentioned earlier, and they were largely a big disappointment too, certainly when compared with what I’m used to from the Lockwoods! :)
Therefore, ‘best/most expensive’ doesn’t always equate to ‘best’ where it really matters….
Marco.
The Black Adder
09-01-2015, 10:18
Freaking bonkers.... £23k.... err, nope!
When I see the crossovers in those it makes me want to scream. For all that money I'd expect a fully boutique loaded crossover at least. The crossovers can be put together for about £100 - £150 each side.
Exactly, my point!
For that kind of dosh, the money should be getting spent ‘under the hood’, where it matters most, not on ‘prestige value’, no pun intended! :eyebrows:
The fact that so often that doesn’t happen is what annoys me most about ‘high-end’ audio. It’s the daft Japs who inflate the worth of big Tannoy DCs to unrealistic levels…. :mental:
It was the Kingdom Royals, incidentally, I heard at Whittlebury. Interestingly, those used super-tweeters (just found this on YouTube):
8RHiYFbOqj0
The fact that they do use super-tweeters (which one presumes are also horn-loaded) suggests that Tannoy think there are benefits to be had, and those are also my feelings. However, as Paul says, it’s a matter of properly integrating them into the design, from the ground up, rather than simply adding them later as an ‘afterthought’.
Bottom line, however, is that they didn’t make me go ‘WOW’, or make my Lockwoods sound broken, which at that price, they really ought to!!
Marco.
The Black Adder
09-01-2015, 10:52
Yeah but... Marco... they are in dog dick red... Makes the difference for some. Genius :mental:
The fact that they do use super-tweeters (which one presumes are also horn-loaded)...
The Tannoy ones in those red speakers aren't horn loaded.
Very interesting video here for anyone interested in a potted history of Tannoy DCs, how significant Monitor Golds were, and an outlining of the design principles of the current Prestige range:
si4Hpm3wboE
You even get a glimpse of some of the crossover components, used in the new range! ;)
Marco.
The Tannoy ones in those red speakers aren't horn loaded.
That’s what I was wondering, actually, as they didn’t look like it, but I wondered why they would’ve deviated from horn-loading their super-tweeters. It’s interesting that they’ve chosen a dome, when the main tweeters are horn-loaded…
Marco.
Exactly, my point!
For that kind of dosh, the money should be getting spent ‘under the hood’, where it matters most, not on ‘prestige value’, no pun intended! :eyebrows:
The fact that so often that doesn’t happen is what annoys me most about ‘high-end’ audio. It’s the daft Japs who inflate the worth of big Tannoy DCs to unrealistic levels…. :mental:
It was the Kingdom Royals, incidentally, I heard at Whittlebury. Interestingly, those used super-tweeters (just found this on YouTube):
8RHiYFbOqj0
The fact that they do use super-tweeters (which one presumes are also horn-loaded) suggests that Tannoy think there are benefits to be had, and those are also my feelings. However, as Paul says, it’s a matter of properly integrating them into the design, from the ground up, rather than simply adding them later as an ‘afterthought’.
.
Benefits to the marketing dept. Since the whole 'hi-rez' thing took hold it sort of obliges the manufacturers to provide this extended bandwith since the potential purchasers demand it, even if there is no practical improvement to be had. If they only had frequency response to 22 KHz they would sell less of them.
Yeah but... Marco... they are in dog dick red... Makes the difference for some. Genius :mental:
Lol… One wonders what they’ve spent the most money on, the ‘fancy paintwork’ or the crossovers inside? Mmmm…. ;)
Marco.
Benefits to the marketing dept. Since the whole 'hi-rez' thing took hold it sort of obliges the manufacturers to provide this extended bandwith since the potential purchasers demand it, even if there is no practical improvement to be had. If they only had frequency response to 22 KHz they would sell less of them.
Yes, I’m sure that is also a factor. However, I do believe that, properly implemented, high-quality super-tweeters produce sonic benefits.
Marco.
The Black Adder
09-01-2015, 11:13
Lol… One wonders what they’ve spent the most money on, the ‘fancy paintwork’ or the crossovers inside? Mmmm…. ;)
Most probably the paint job... and it probably cost £10k more too.
In all seriousness, I can quite believe that the piano-finish 'Ferrari Red’ paintwork cost more than the crossovers fitted inside, which should provide an insight into what the priorities are….
Marco.
The Black Adder
09-01-2015, 11:34
I've no doubt what so ever matey...
That’s what I was wondering, actually, as they didn’t look like it, but I wondered why they would’ve deviated from horn-loading their super-tweeters. It’s interesting that they’ve chosen a dome, when the main tweeters are horn-loaded…
Marco.
Well, the Kindom Royal isn't really a horn loaded speaker. The tweeter is mounted in the mouth of the mid driver and is horn loaded but the mid driver is in a sealed cabinet and the bass driver is reflex ported at the rear; so neither the mid nor bass are at all horn loaded.
It was just the tweeters I was referring to. The main ones in the DC units are horn-loaded, so one would’ve presumed that they’d have done the same with the supers :)
Marco.
I can't say it surprises me that they aren't.
Wakefield Turntables
10-01-2015, 19:33
Well after 11 pages I have come to my conclusion. I'm ditching the idea of a Super Tweeter and have some customised Tannoy York Cabs made towards the end of this year. :eek:, controversial!
I can't say it surprises me that they aren't.
Why? :)
Tannoy’s own, standalone, s-tweets are (such as the ones Paul Stewart uses), which he showed earlier in the thread.
Marco.
Well, not really, a very shallow horn.
Still a horn, not a dome….
Marco.
Stratmangler
11-01-2015, 20:22
Still a horn, not a dome….
Marco.
Funny that Tannoy don't refer to it being a horn in any of their literature :eyebrows:
They have it down as a titanium dome ......:whistle:
http://www.usspeaker.com/images/Tannoy-ST200-Supertweeter.gif
I was referring to the ST200s, above, not those used on the Kingdom Royals. I was under the impression the ones above were horn-loaded, if not, my mistake :)
Marco.
Stratmangler
11-01-2015, 20:39
A waveguide does not a horn make.
The literature I referred to was for the ST200.
PaulStewart
11-01-2015, 21:06
In their initial press releases and other literature at the time of launch Tannoy made much of the fact the STs were horn loaded. I remember discussing them with Ken Kessler at the time.
Now I’m really confused! :eyebrows:
Are they or aren’t they?
Marco.
Stratmangler
11-01-2015, 21:48
No they're not!
Irrespective of the chatter at the time, a look at the owner's manual has no mention of them being horn loaded.
If they were horn loaded it would be in the literature available from Tannoy.
walpurgis
11-01-2015, 23:09
The dome appears to be situated at the back of a short straight sided flare. There could be a variety of reasons for this, but it could be interpreted as a horn (but not enough of one to have real significance). I guess you could call it horn loaded or not horn loaded and not really be right or wrong. Hope that sorts it all out! :D
Big martha tells me that you were ‘horn-loaded’ last night….. :eyebrows:
Marco.
walpurgis
11-01-2015, 23:16
Big martha tells me that you were ‘horn-loaded’ last night….. :eyebrows:
Marco.
She just can't keep quiet! :rolleyes:
Stratmangler
11-01-2015, 23:19
Well said Geoff!
That's really cleared that up (mutters while looking for sarcastic comment emoticon)....
If you wanted to stretch a point you could say that the tweeters of the B&W DM series speakers were horn loaded too (they're not btw), but the dispersion waveguide could be interpreted as such.
http://www.tnt-audio.com/jpg/601front.jpg
:)
walpurgis
11-01-2015, 23:58
Yup. Same applies. :)
I mean, where do you draw the line? The original KEF T27 sat behind a faceplate with an angled opening about 3mm deep. Is that a horn?
Being realistic. These Altecs are what I call horn tweeters:
http://i57.tinypic.com/2i7oi1f.jpg
Now I’m really confused! :eyebrows:
Are they or aren’t they?
Marco.
They aren't.
They're metal dome tweeters, period.
The shallow depression is simply a waveguide primarily to lift sensitivity to ensure SPL matching lower down in their range where they overlap with the main tweeter (out of phase ;-)). Higher up they become quite directional plus you probably wont notice them anyway once the frequency rises much over 16KHz, unless you're a bat. It matters not what they are though, but lets just say that this chatter about horn loading somehow being superior to dome designs for tweeters is quite baseless. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with a decent dome and a hell of a lot to recommend them which is why most high end designs use them. They have better dispersion characteristics in the upper mids and lower HF and are generally more linear with frequency. What's fashionable or the next hifi craze often has no basis other than a ripple of chatter on such subjects. The reason (only reason) Tannoy used horn loaded tweeters for their DC designs is for the advantages of time alignment within the dual concentric design. In terms of linearity, it's actually not great, especially much above 15kHz where performance becomes very peaky. It's adequate though, so a lot of these paper advantages and forum chatter fashions disappear once things are heard for one's self. The modern prestige range horn tweeters on the pepperpot designs (not the tulip waveguide versions) are an improvement on the originals but the ones I've heard still don't seem to manage to integrate very well, or at least not as well as the vintage MG and HPD versions, despite their performance advantages over the originals. That's another story though. Unless your hearing is that of a 10 year old, the vintage MG/HPD with a decent crossover fitted should provide all the detail you need. Many recording studios in the past could not all be wrong.
Hi Paul,
There's nothing whatsoever wrong with a decent dome and a hell of a lot to recommend them which is why most high end designs use them.
Indeed. Also because sometimes they’re cheaper and more readily available.
The reason (only reason) Tannoy used horn loaded tweeters for their DC designs is for the advantages of time alignment within the dual concentric design.
Sounds like a reasonable reason, then, to try horn-loaded supertweeters with Tannoy DCs.
In terms of linearity, it's actually not great, especially much above 15kHz where performance becomes very peaky. It's adequate though, so a lot of these paper advantages and forum chatter fashions disappear once things are heard for one's self.
Absolutely, which is why, as ever, one has to try things for oneself, and LISTEN :)
The modern prestige range horn tweeters on the pepperpot designs (not the tulip waveguide versions) are an improvement on the originals but the ones I've heard still don't seem to manage to integrate very well, or at least not as well as the vintage MG and HPD versions, despite their performance advantages over the originals.
Since we’re talking about ‘paper advantages’, I’ve yet to hear any performance advantages, in the real world, with modern Tannoy Prestige DCs over 15" Monitor Golds, when the latter are partnered with a top-notch P/P valve amp.
On paper, these so-called advantages may exist, but they’ve failed to translate into real-world listening, certainly as far as my experience goes, and I’ve heard numerous examples of Tannoy DCs, from vintage HPDs, to MRs and MGs, to current Prestige Tannoy DCs, and when you get it right, the musical advantages of 15” MGs (and 15” MRs) are very easily heard.
That's another story though. Unless your hearing is that of a 10 year old, the vintage MG/HPD with a decent crossover fitted should provide all the detail you need.
Well, that may prove to be the case, but my curiosity with STs has been sufficiently piqued to warrant auditioning some. However, it’s certainly not a major priority for me, and so unlikely to be pursued immediately.
Marco.
My speakers cover all the bases since they have dome, horn and cone tweeters :)
Sounds like a reasonable reason then to try them with Tannoy DCs.
Well, it would be a whole lot simpler to just position the ST in the right place on top of the cabinet...(vertically in line with the tweeter).
If I was getting some, that’s exactly what I’d do.
Marco.
My speakers cover all the bases since they have dome, horn and cone tweeters :)
Yes, but you might be joining the Tannoy DC club soon… ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
12-01-2015, 16:12
Yes, but you might be joining the Tannoy DC club soon… ;)
Marco.
Absolutely. High time Macca stopped messing about and got REAL speakers. :lol: ;)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.