View Full Version : Curious...opinions on best digital connection to DAC?
I know Spdif Rca isn't a "true" 75 ohm connection,and the likes of Canare plugs get close, but I'm looking at the more Pro type connections like BNC and AES.
My Young Dac has both types, and wonder which one is thought of as better and would it in fact be a step up (or not) from a RCA Spdif or toslink connection?
Assuming short cables of good quality, no loss from poor implementation.
Cheers! :)
Have you tried a "proper" glass Toslink connection Gaz? The plastic ones are total shit by comparison and I say they are better than any wire based connection.
have heard glass tos are superb and always wanted to try one but never got to it. probably wont now. certainly a good option Gary. (there was a thread about it somewhere here)
Are you asking cos of your new "toy" dude? It only has s-pdif or usb out?
Theory is good if you have nothing better to do than read opinions on forums, practical way is to borrow some
cables and try them! Doh! :ner:
PaulStewart
04-01-2015, 12:14
Have you tried a "proper" glass Toslink connection Gaz? The plastic ones are total shit by comparison and I say they are better than any wire based connection.
+1 Glass Toslink gives no path for RFI, EMF, Etc. A quality glass with properly finished ends has low chomatic abberation and internal reflections, best way to go
Spectral Morn
04-01-2015, 12:17
In regards to Red Book transfer - I think BNC is first preference, with RCA next and then 110 ohm XLR. At least that's been my experienced based on what I have tried so far. In saying that others mileage may vary as the gear they use may be designed to favour 110 over other connections. More than likely that pro gear may favour that connection.
In regards to HD it gets more complicated. Toshlink won't transfer above 96 so if you are into 192 it won't work. Very few laptops have these as outputs anymore though I know older ACERs did. I have tried this but preferred the USB and yes it was a glass optical cable not plastic.
Re USB to conventional digital cables based on my experience with the HiFace converter I favour coax now over USB. However another set up might see it go the other way. It strikes me that the least amount of converting etc should sound better and is the ideal to aim for.
My Esoteric P3 and D5 have 110 ohm transfer of individual left right channel DSD data and Red Book, there is also Firewire but I can't compare the two to coax as the coax won't transfer DSD.
I think though that David has a point re sucking and seeing yourself, as your experience, equipment and listening bias may prefer another option to the valid but unique, possibly singular, experiences of others.
Regards Neil
A few guys on pfm use these with good results
http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html
Are you asking cos of your new "toy" dude? It only has s-pdif or usb out?
Theory is good if you have nothing better to do than read opinions on forums, practical way is to borrow some
cables and try them! Doh! :ner:
Agreed fella, and thanks for the offer to try for myself in my system, top man. :thumbsup:
The new toy though has a few extra connections thrown in, including BNC and AES.
;)
Thanks for the info on glass toslink guys, never tried one before...
Interesting.
Oldpinkman
04-01-2015, 16:54
The advice I grew up with was coax when you can, toslink when you must. Recently someone explained to me why, and it went in one ear and out the other.
Short cables seems the rule usually, but there is a theory that the connection is a transmission line and less than 1.5m can lead to reflections. I mention it to reject it. Short is good for me. The same guy who explained why coax also explained this, and it went in one ear and out the other, but I have recently confirmed the experience.
I have been comparing streamed audio with a Raspberry Pi to the CD output from a Cambridge CD6 (my transport) on another forum. Quite an interesting journey - but it has involved lots of AB's between 3 of the 4 inputs on my DAC (1 and 2 are coax, 4 is toslink). The Pi has been falling short every time until I switched to ethernet from WiFi, when we couldn't split it from CD. I should note, I am still surprised by this, and there was a stray variable in the testing. Namely, this time I made sure I used a direct studio FLAC file as comparator with the CD rather than my own rip from WMP. However, in this context, unable to split them, I realised I was using my fancy 1.5m true 75ohm coax on the CD player, and a dodgy 60cm spare yellow RCA lead from a video camera with a BNC adaptor on the DAC end for the Pi (the digi card only has an rca connector). And we couldn't tell 'em apart.
We tried toslink - and it never matched coax.
The old ears as final arbiter! (I do plan to try to get those explanations again, and if I can remember them I'll post them)
Cheers Richard,
I've heard the coax 1.5m rule before, wonder if its connected to RCA not being true 75Ohm, giving to impedance mismatches etc?
As 110 Ohm AES and XLR are balanced, I've read they are better for longer cable runs?
I read that AES runs at a higher voltage so theoretically may be better immune to noise for a long cable, but Considering though I'm talking 1.5m max, is there any other advantage?
Not overly fussed in cable choice tbh, but if there is a difference between them might as well get the best option. :)
Cheers!
Been reading up on this on pro sites like Gearlutz and the like.
AES seems to be consistently mentioned as a good choice for Pro gear, testing equipment and the like, so will try that too.
This looks sane, sensible and non-foo :)
http://www.surebuyz.com/CustomleadZ/LDZ-0050.html
Oldpinkman
04-01-2015, 17:45
Cheers Richard,
I've heard the coax 1.5m rule before, wonder if its connected to RCA not being true 75Ohm, giving to impedance mismatches etc?
As 110 Ohm AES and XLR are balanced, I've read they are better for longer cable runs?
I read that AES runs at a higher voltage so theoretically may be better immune to noise for a long cable, but Considering though I'm talking 1.5m max, is there any other advantage?
Not overly fussed in cable choice tbh, but if there is a difference between them might as well get the best option. :)
Cheers!
Like I said, I'll take notes next time. The 1.5m rule IS connected to the overall 75ohm impedance issue, but this is more complicated than whether you have an RCA connector or not, and had all sorts to do with the impedance of the board inside the device. It's not impedance mismatches, but signals reflected back within the time scale which could cause an error in detection. The punch line was "don't worry about it - not an issue, and (I think) at least in part, this was due to characteristics which are not a true transmission line. I'm really interested, but we were discussing a dozen other things over the phone, and will meet and do it properly soon
When, hopefully I can get my grubby hands on an AHB2!! I fear this may cause a hole in my wallet in 2015, but I shall try to be strong! ;)
Light Dependant Resistor
04-01-2015, 18:06
The important parameters are that the line used maintains its characteristic impedance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_cable , and being short is an advantage.
The choice of end terminations would indicate for available coax cable types suiting that BNC ( Bayonet Neill–Concelman ) is the most accurate to do this being 50- 75 ohm
Not to lose sleep over, but this refinement of coax cable and terminations ( well worthwhile doing ) is at a long end line of other sources of what is called jitter, sources include errors in the medium itself when analog to digital transfer is done and made minimal by recordings being DDD.
wee tee cee
04-01-2015, 18:25
Gaz,
I have tried quite a few co-ax and settled on the Mark Grant oyaide wbt 110ag as being the best in my set up. If I recall one of the board meetings a TQ one shaded it and took pole position ( Ali had it in play with the TFS if memory serves)
I have ran optical for quite a while with a BM2 and now a Caiman2, Stan did quite a bit of work on the optical implementation of both DACs that really changed my thinking. Mark Grant did a glass optical for a few years which to my ears is the most transparent connection I have plumbed in. I dont think he does them anymore- might be worth it to see if he has any lying about that he might part with.
Let me know if you fancy comparing a few, I have a selection starting from super cheapo to mid range multi strand and the MG glass.
Ali Tait
04-01-2015, 19:00
It was the MRCU Ultimate, which I still use.
wee tee cee
04-01-2015, 19:04
It was noticeably less coloured than the other contenders-it would be interesting to pitch it against my glass optical!!!
Ali Tait
04-01-2015, 19:13
Aye, next board meeting maybe.
Cheers Tony,
Never tried a glass coax, wouldnt mind trying the MG one?
Imagine its as good as any toslink, Mark makes good gear!
Funny you should mention the Oyaide coax, have one of them myself between the Oppo and the Dac.
Superb bit of wire, though mines has rhodium plugs not the WBTs.
Reckon the last RCA cable I'll ever need.
Gaz,
I have tried quite a few co-ax and settled on the Mark Grant oyaide wbt 110ag as being the best in my set up. If I recall one of the board meetings a TQ one shaded it and took pole position ( Ali had it in play with the TFS if memory serves)
I have ran optical for quite a while with a BM2 and now a Caiman2, Stan did quite a bit of work on the optical implementation of both DACs that really changed my thinking. Mark Grant did a glass optical for a few years which to my ears is the most transparent connection I have plumbed in. I dont think he does them anymore- might be worth it to see if he has any lying about that he might part with.
Let me know if you fancy comparing a few, I have a selection starting from super cheapo to mid range multi strand and the MG glass.
Aye, next board meeting maybe.
Planning another at mine when the new amp comes in to play, not be for a while though.
a few wires to play with on the way chief :)
oh and when you have £1000 to spare an up-grade for your edingdales that you will wet yourself on hearing (nothing of mine btw)
Toppsy's been busy then? :)
Thanks again for the cable loan Dave, top man.
Will be really helpful.
Toppsy's been busy then? :)
Thanks again for the cable loan Dave, top man.
Will be really helpful.
the speaker up-grade applies to any floorstanding loudspeaker nothing to do with Colin or Scott
Please see: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?12070-Squeezebox-and-toslink&p=235121#post235121
orbscure
05-01-2015, 17:40
Re USB to conventional digital cables based on my experience with the HiFace converter I favour coax now over USB. However another set up might see it go the other way. It strikes me that the least amount of converting etc should sound better and is the ideal to aim for.
Not wishing to hijack the thread, but if I had a hiFace 2, were to insert it into my Korus server and run a coax cable to my DAC, then I'd get full benefit of 192khz/24bit?
Not wishing to hijack the thread, but if I had a hiFace 2, were to insert it into my Korus server and run a coax cable to my DAC, then I'd get full benefit of 192khz/24bit?
No problem Pete.
Can comment on the Korus server but not the hiface.
The Server can output up to 24/192 from its spdif coax connection (the chip on the motherbaord can output SPDIF up to this rate), but not familiar enough with the hiface to know if it needs a driver or not in Windows.
Try it! :)
Please see: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?12070-Squeezebox-and-toslink&p=235121#post235121
Good link Neil, interesting how different the optical and coax traces were.
Spectral Morn
05-01-2015, 18:30
Not wishing to hijack the thread, but if I had a hiFace 2, were to insert it into my Korus server and run a coax cable to my DAC, then I'd get full benefit of 192khz/24bit?
It does need a Windows driver and yes one will get full benefit from 24/192.
Regards Neil
Good link Neil, interesting how different the optical and coax traces were.
Yeah it's down to bandwidth limitations of the TOSLINK interface, not the cable itself or the light (he he) but due to the conversion from electrical to optical at the TX end and another conversion from optical to electrical at the RX end. Enough of an issue for Weiss to make the "Chiron" cable and these guys aren't into their foo... I would still use coax though and save the dollars.
In fact our very own Stan Beresford has also noticed this and uses non-standard high bandwidth TOSLINK in sockets on his Caiman 2, but then you do still have the transmitting side.
orbscure
05-01-2015, 20:04
It does need a Windows driver and yes one will get full benefit from 24/192.
The Server can output up to 24/192 from its spdif coax connection (the chip on the motherboard can output SPDIF up to this rate), but not familiar enough with the hiface to know if it needs a driver or not in Windows. Try it! :)
Thanks Neil/Gaz :) I wish I could try it, but I'd imagine that like many here, Christmas has well and truly done for me financially at present..
Yeah it's down to bandwidth limitations of the TOSLINK interface, not the cable itself or the light (he he) but due to the conversion from electrical to optical at the TX end and another conversion from optical to electrical at the RX end. Enough of an issue for Weiss to make the "Chiron" cable and these guys aren't into their foo... I would still use coax though and save the dollars.
Will be comparing Optical, coax, AES and XLR...
gawd I need to get out more..... :lol:
Will be comparing Optical, coax, AES and XLR...
gawd I need to get out more..... :lol:
that you do:lol: it will keep u out of mischief
Stratmangler
05-01-2015, 23:38
Will be comparing Optical, coax, AES and XLR...
gawd I need to get out more..... :lol:
AES/EBU uses XLR!
Is that what you're alluding to?
If your coax is connected to RCA phono connectors on either or both ends try something with the Canare connectors on either or both ends.
I had a 1.5m length of this arrive today http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40_3&products_id=3 and it's laying bare the production on pieces I thought I knew well!
It's not night and day stuff, but there are subtle details making themselves apparent that I've never heard in the same way before, and I think it's an improvement on what I had before.
I agree, you probably do need to get out more! :eyebrows:
Hey Chris,
Only ever had coax and toslink to try before, curious about the balanced connections and if they are any better.
As always it's my lug 'oles that'll be my test equipment.
Had a few of Marks original version of that Belden/Canare cable and agree, it's fantastic.
Highly rated cable and as close to 75ohm Rca plugs as your gonna get I think.
Yeah, XLR and AES share the same plug and wiring but was more thinking of trying the "pukka" 110 ohm AES cable against the standard XLR typically used to hook up pro equipment.
For those that REALLY need to get out more...(I'm only borderline...ish!)
Found this thread over on squeezebox forums.
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?97950-MEASUREMENTS-Some-Squeezebox-numbers-to-consider
Went a bit rabbit in the headlights reading it, but some interesting comparisons between connections and again, despite scope traces being taken, different folks different strokes...
I promise, I'll lose half a day of my life then I'll never think about it again. :lol:
AES/EBU uses XLR!
Is that what you're alluding to?
If your coax is connected to RCA phono connectors on either or both ends try something with the Canare connectors on either or both ends.
I had a 1.5m length of this arrive today http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40_3&products_id=3 and it's laying bare the production on pieces I thought I knew well!
It's not night and day stuff, but there are subtle details making themselves apparent that I've never heard in the same way before, and I think it's an improvement on what I had before.
I agree, you probably do need to get out more! :eyebrows:
Short cables seems the rule usually, but there is a theory that the connection is a transmission line and less than 1.5m can lead to reflections.
Indeed. Have a read here and discover why 1.5m minimum is best: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm
Marco.
Indeed. Have a read here and discover why 1.5m minimum is best: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm
Marco.
So using RCA connectors is a bit of a non-starter. And I doubt if the BNCs used are actually 75 Ohm impedance types.
Would you like to try a longer length of my "Yellow" cable Marco?
Blue jeans cable offer a Belden 1649a digital coax with true 75 ohm BNC connectors, Canare I think.
Have a 1.5m BNC cable in the post.
Would you like to try a longer length of my "Yellow" cable Marco?
You’ve read my mind, Barry! :eyebrows:
Btw, that yellow cable of yours is bloody superb - soon to be known as ‘The Bazza Special’!
Marco.
Blue jeans cable offer a Belden 1649a digital coax with true 75 ohm BNC connectors, Canare I think.
Have a 1.5m BNC cable in the post.
This is what I use. :)
Well the Belden 1695A Coax, which is the Teflon version.
Belden 1695A is essentially RG-6/U using a foam FEP (fluorinated ethylene polymer) dielectric with an additional aluminised-polyester film/aluminium foil tape between the dielectric and the outer tinned-copper braid.
Audio Advent
12-01-2015, 21:48
Yeah, XLR and AES share the same plug and wiring but was more thinking of trying the "pukka" 110 ohm AES cable against the standard XLR typically used to hook up pro equipment.
I definately need to get out more, but for the time being and to be a pedant, XLR IS the plug. XLR is just that type of bayonette housing with that locking mechanism and is used for all sorts with different numbers of pins, 4 pin and 5 pin XLRs are common in lighting control cables for example.
One thing to note when doing the comparison is that quite often balanced audio cables are made using the very same 110ohm digital cable - that impedance is for MHz frequencies and doesn't effect the analogue audio signal in any meaningful way other than how your usual audiophile cable construction differences might claim to effect the sound in some way. Just cheaper for manufacturers to make a cable which can be sold for use as both. I've not read through the thread (apologies) but have people considered the old At&T optical connections (which have pretty much disappeared now) and i2s connections for their sonic differences?
All these discussions across forums about the potentially subtle differences with 2 channel, whilst back in the studios people are sending 64+ channels of at least 96/24 at once down a dual coax line (MADI format). I think the studio engineers must laugh at the fretting audiophiles go through..
a few wires to play with on the way chief :)
oh and when you have £1000 to spare an up-grade for your edingdales that you will wet yourself on hearing (nothing of mine btw)
Did you change your mind about sending a few wires out Dave?
Nothing in the post yet...
Thanks,
G.
Did you change your mind about sending a few wires out Dave?
Nothing in the post yet...
Thanks,
G.
Not at all, I gave Nick a massive box of cables to give to you at NEBO, and you wimped out of going!
Ninanina
18-01-2015, 23:14
Gary without reading the whole post... sorry... can you use Coax and Optical Toslink's? if so I'd go the Coax route. I used a good Toslink cable and then tried a very good Coax and the Coax was miles better... hope that helps... :)
He must have forgot to give them to Ali.
Any chance of firing them up again mate?
I'll cover the postage.
Cheers!
walpurgis
18-01-2015, 23:18
Gary without reading the whole post... sorry... can you use Coax and Optical Toslink's? if so I'd go the Coax route. I used a good Toslink cable and then tried a very good Coax and the Coax was miles better... hope that helps... :)
I'd agree. I've used dozens of CD players and TosLinks and Digital Coax cables and for me, the cable has always been more satisfactory.
Ninanina
18-01-2015, 23:24
I'd agree. I've used dozens of CD players and TosLinks and Digital Coax cables and for me, the cable has always been more satisfactory.
Yes Geoff I always found the Toslink's to sound kind of 'digital' in some way... and the Coax cables always seemed more natural to me.. even the cheapest Coax cables I tried .. :)
Dauntless
20-01-2015, 11:14
Reading this thread prompted me to try the AES/EBU connections on my CD Transport and Dac. I've always used coax cable up until now. Bought some 110 ohm cable off amazon and plugged in in. I have to report a much better result with 110 ohm and I won't be returning to 75 ohm coax anytime soon.
Yep..Toslink hits harder. Deeper bass and pronounced HF.
But Coax just sounds more natural, more musical.
The Black Adder
21-01-2015, 17:09
Yes Geoff I always found the Toslink's to sound kind of 'digital' in some way... and the Coax cables always seemed more natural to me.. even the cheapest Coax cables I tried .. :)
I'd have to agree... It does sound more etched with toslink but it's not all bad. With Coax the sound seems more driven.
Not at all, I gave Nick a massive box of cables to give to you at NEBO, and you wimped out of going! He must have forgot to give them to Ali.
Any chance of firing them up again mate?
I'll cover the postage.
Cheers!
Uhm..ok then, maybe not. :(
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