Earthing Madness - how far have you gone?

[BilliumB]

First the safety bit: clearly doing stuff to mains earths can be very dangerous - you need to know what you're doing, so check with a qualified electrician first and get them to inspect everything!

I'm on a TT system, so depend on an earth spike near my front door. I'm looking to upgrade my HiFi mains set-up in a few months time and intend to improve the earth also.

I'm wondering how far other people have gone with such improvements, and what differences they have made?

Cheers. Bill

[Oldpinkman]

Just for the sake of thread completeness - nowhere. (not quite true - the electrician who installed the new board installed an earth spike at the time)
Attention to equipment grounding can have a significant impact on sound quality. But that's completely different from burying a metal bed frame under the lawn and installing a sprinkler system :)

[hifinutt]

yes we madly went under the lounge floor which is 4 foot down and then put an earth spike in about 3 foot and its connected to my isotek mains conditioner !! not sure if it makes any difference but , hey ho it scratched an itch at the time !!

[Sovereign]

Just for the sake of thread completeness - nowhere. (not quite true - the electrician who installed the new board installed an earth spike at the time)
Attention to equipment grounding can have a significant impact on sound quality. But that's completely different from burying a metal bed frame under the lawn and installing a sprinkler system :)
Richard, I thought you didn't believe improvement to mains made a difference, mains is mains I thought?

[BilliumB]

Hi Phil

Did you consider a longer earth spike to get down to the water table, or an under lounge sprinkler system?

Cheers Bill

[Barry]

For your own safely:

It is essential that any alteration/modification to the domestic UK mains installation is carried out by a fully qualified electrician.

It is also important to understand that adding additional mains earthing spikes to a domestic installation could actually make the system unsafe and dangerous - depending on the earthing arrangements used: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Earthing_Types

[BilliumB]

Hello Barry

Totally agree - that's why I put the safety stuff at the beginning - using a qualified electrician is vital.

So, come on folks, what has worked for you?

Cheers. Bill

[hifinutt]

Hi Phil

Did you consider a longer earth spike to get down to the water table, or an under lounge sprinkler system?

Cheers Bill

hah , it probably is a bit damp down there as went down deep !!

[BilliumB]

Anybody out there?

[The Barbarian]

You could always just clense yourself & just concentrate on what is after the wall sockets.

:eyebrows:

[BilliumB]

I'm sure I could, but I'd like to find out what improved grounding has done for people. My guess is that some people have gone a long way!

Cheers. Bill

[Oldpinkman]

Richard, I thought you didn't believe improvement to mains made a difference, mains is mains I thought?

Yup. The spike was for safety not sound

[The Barbarian]

& if you think otherwise id recommend a clinic

:D

[BilliumB]

So anyone has your earthing 'madness' made a big difference to the sound and musicality of your system?

[Sovereign]

& if you think otherwise id recommend a clinic

:D

can you recommend a clinic that is not too expensive because I'm totally sold on the fact that good-quality mains has transformed the sound of my Hifi

[BilliumB]

Hi James

How far did you go to improve earthing?

Cheers. Bill

[Bluesboy65]

At previous house sunk 5 earth rods into the front garden in a star pattern,had a separate mains ring for the HiFi at the same time,did earthing make a difference,can't be sure,but the separate ring main was one of the biggest improvements to the sound for little cost.

[BilliumB]

Hi Ian

Do you remember how far apart you placed the spikes? You say the ring was a big improvement, and I'm sure you're right. Did you do the earthing upgrade at the same time as the ring (therefore difficult to separate what improved things) or was the earthing improvement simply marginal on its own?

Cheers. Bill

[Bluesboy65]

Hi Bill,the spikes were roughly 4 metres apart,I went way over the top with them to be honest,as to did they make a difference,the readings on the electricians tester were way way lower on the twin sockets than anywere else in the house,and if your to believe Russ Andrews,it is very wothwhile,the ring main system,with the earth rods,made a massive differance.

[BilliumB]

Thanks Ian - so with both the new ring plus the 5 spike star earth you had a big improvement in the sound?

Cheers. Bill

[Bluesboy65]

Hi Bill,made a massive difference,in HiFi terms bass was cleaner,treble less harsh,but more so than that,there was no mush on the mains,it was fundamentally better,you couldn't get the sort of improvement by buying a piece of equipment,pity I can't do it were I am know.

[BilliumB]

Thanks Ian, really interesting to hear what worked for you.

I'm planning on a dedicated consumer unit and radial for the hifi, but also wondering about the most effective earthing setup - I'm out in the sticks on a TT (local earth spike) system (rather than on PME like most people) and currently have a single earth spike that's been there for some years.

I've got plenty of space around the house, and a 3 tonne digger, so am considering something significant on the earthing front. One thing I'm wondering about is a line of well spaced spikes following the ditch at the side of our lane - this should keep them well watered! Other options include some form of buried earth mat.

At the moment I'm trying to find out what has worked for other people. One suggestion I've had from someone in the industry is to put in a 'rf earth' using thick coax connected as follows - screen and centre core connected together and to earth, centre core connected to an earth terminal, or outer on an unused phono at the kit end - the idea being a low impedance route to earth for higher frequency noise that will 'see' a simple 16mm2 earth cable as high impedance. A key issue is making the connection to earth using something that won't corrode and act as an rf detector. One option I'm considering is a big stainless steel plate thrown down into my well! For safety reasons it might be a good idea to add a suitably rated capacitor in the line.

At the moment I'm still considering the options before all the upheaval, probably some time next year!

Cheers. Bill

[Bluesboy65]

One last thing,the consumer unit that Russ Andrews sells can be bought for a third of the price,good luck with your project.

[Sonority]

If you really want to do it right - then give Chem Rod a call. They have a Uk side as well.
Earth rods should not just be hammered in willy nilly - they need to be correctly spaced so as not to interfere with each other, and the distance apart depends entirely on what they are going into resistance wise.
GAF (ground augmentation fill) can help (think kitty litter). Also - knocking them in as deep as you can can actually make matters worse - not better.
Again you really need to know the resistivety of you sub soil. It is NOT an easy subject to get right, it is VERY easy to get it wrong!

Chem Rod really know their stuff - I travelled all the way to the States to help a friend to fit his. It worked, very, very well.
If your going to do it - do it right and get all of the facts you need before you start. They are not that easy to find in all honesty.
Just using hundreds of rods simply isn't the way to go.

[BilliumB]

Thanks Stephen

Yes, I've been reading up about the issues, min spacing of rods = 2*length, reduced impedance from use of bentonite or similar etc.

Do tell us a bit more about your friend's setup, what you did and how it improved things.

Thanks, Bill

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Thanks Ian, really interesting to hear what worked for you.

I'm planning on a dedicated consumer unit and radial for the hifi, but also wondering about the most effective earthing setup - I'm out in the sticks on a TT (local earth spike) system (rather than on PME like most people) and currently have a single earth spike that's been there for some years.

I've got plenty of space around the house, and a 3 tonne digger, so am considering something significant on the earthing front. One thing I'm wondering about is a line of well spaced spikes following the ditch at the side of our lane - this should keep them well watered! Other options include some form of buried earth mat.

At the moment I'm trying to find out what has worked for other people. One suggestion I've had from someone in the industry is to put in a 'rf earth' using thick coax connected as follows - screen and centre core connected together and to earth, centre core connected to an earth terminal, or outer on an unused phono at the kit end - the idea being a low impedance route to earth for higher frequency noise that will 'see' a simple 16mm2 earth cable as high impedance. A key issue is making the connection to earth using something that won't corrode and act as an rf detector. One option I'm considering is a big stainless steel plate thrown down into my well! For safety reasons it might be a good idea to add a suitably rated capacitor in the line.

At the moment I'm still considering the options before all the upheaval, probably some time next year!

Cheers. Bill

Hi Bill
I have had experience with AM radio grounding in semi tropic / wet season area. We had great success with deep grounding where nearly
as good as you can get was achieved at 20 meters depth, and is assisted with graphite powder that is poured in
like a concrete slurry. Whilst this worked for protecting transmission assets, there are other approaches based on the
individual sites soil resistance, climate and what is being protected.

Also how the rod material should be bonded with exothermic welding and its construction vs time are all factors
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/LT30323.pdf

A few hours studying this fascinating subject, including how to determine soil types and electrical resistance of soil is well worth while.
Your local council other than being experts at collecting rates- usually their main focus, may have some prior knowledge of your area that might assist

Cheers / Chris

[BilliumB]

Thanks Chris

I've read a bit about exothermic welding but not sure whether my electrician would have the kit for it (I'll investigate - he does some industrial stuff), or whether something suitable could be hired. I'd been wondering about making a more normal 'clamp' connection using cleaned, deoxidised, components, and then covering in something like Denso tape, silicon or similar.

Any thoughts on the 'rf' or higher frequency earth - this seems logical to me as the normal earth cables, spikes, mats etc are likely to have quite a high impedance to the sort of noise frequencies that, I assume, will make a difference.

Cheers. Bill

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Thanks Chris

I've read a bit about exothermic welding but not sure whether my electrician would have the kit for it (I'll investigate - he does some industrial stuff), or whether something suitable could be hired. I'd been wondering about making a more normal 'clamp' connection using cleaned, deoxidised, components, and then covering in something like Denso tape, silicon or similar.

Any thoughts on the 'rf' or higher frequency earth - this seems logical to me as the normal earth cables, spikes, mats etc are likely to have quite a high impedance to the sort of noise frequencies that, I assume, will make a difference.

Cheers. Bill

Hi Bill
If welding is too difficult or beyond your electrician, then clamping using threaded tops and nuts or car battery clamps.
Remembering everything is added length and wears out, with stainless steel being the best of the bunch for longevity.

I would choose a spot that is not dry if that is possible, try and get a single hole bored to 8 meters if that is possible - that's a long way down ,
obtain stainless steel rod with threaded top section. Treat the bored hole with graphite powder known commercially as GEM
http://www.erico.com/part.asp?part=GEM25A If GEM is not available, try and source salt to treat the ground

The cables and their length attaching are of course pivotal to success, and in radio work we used very heavy solid copper strap of only
2 meter length which was more to do with low impedance lines for lightning protection and the current a 2.5 kw transmitter was drawing.
We used a 20 meter hole at the AM mast itself, then another 25 meter hole just outside the equipment hut, both had solid threaded section rods
and short cables attaching back to equipment chassis.

In your circumstance if the commercial hardware is too expensive, use car battery cable.

Here are a few tips that might help to adapt to your circumstance that possibly is not as strict:

In radio station equipment racks, if the engineer has really prepared the site correctly there will be a earth rod directly under the rack - exactly where it is needed.

Mats and just below ground radiators, known as radials are used to propagate AM frequencies rather than protection, so you are quite right these are high impedance devices
using the earth to reflect in this case medium wave frequencies.

Be prepared to maintain connections, and provide insulation from weather events.

Cheers / Chris

[BilliumB]

Thanks Chris

Some food for thought! Your figures are really significant, but I'm not surprised having scanned through the Motorola manual on grounding for radio stations.

In reality, I'm going to have to compromise. The HiFi kit is about 15m from the nearest reasonable position for the first earth spike - I'm certainly not going to achieve the close proximity that would be most beneficial. I've got a hole borer used for fence posts, but that will only go down about 1.5m. I had been wondering about using the digger to make a 'trench' earth which would probably use copper plate or strip in a mesh format - improved by the use of graphite powder, bentonite or similar. I was also wondering about a 2-3m spike (or series of spikes) driven down into the bed of a stream about 30m from the hifi. Also utilising the water well in some way - it's about 15m from the hifi.

What are your thoughts on using coax to earth as a low impedance route (in addition to the more normal safety earth spikes and bonding) - it seems to me that most of the rest of the 'simple' earthing will have little (or minimal) beneficial effect on low(ish) level noise signals, especially given the cable lengths necessarily involved?

It's an interesting problem isn't it!

Cheers. Bill

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Thanks Chris

Some food for thought! Your figures are really significant, but I'm not surprised having scanned through the Motorola manual on grounding for radio stations.

In reality, I'm going to have to compromise. The HiFi kit is about 15m from the nearest reasonable position for the first earth spike - I'm certainly not going to achieve the close proximity that would be most beneficial. I've got a hole borer used for fence posts, but that will only go down about 1.5m. I had been wondering about using the digger to make a 'trench' earth which would probably use copper plate or strip in a mesh format - improved by the use of graphite powder, bentonite or similar. I was also wondering about a 2-3m spike (or series of spikes) driven down into the bed of a stream about 30m from the hifi. Also utilising the water well in some way - it's about 15m from the hifi.

What are your thoughts on using coax to earth as a low impedance route (in addition to the more normal safety earth spikes and bonding) - it seems to me that most of the rest of the 'simple' earthing will have little (or minimal) beneficial effect on low(ish) level noise signals, especially given the cable lengths necessarily involved?

It's an interesting problem isn't it!

Cheers. Bill

Hi Bill
If 15m is it, then go with that and bore a hole as deep as you can using GEM to treat the ground or similar.
RF 50 ohm cable RG 213 or larger would be interesting to use as a psuedo ground transmission line, it would be an unusual application
to harness the properties of coax to minimise loss over what is a connection to earth itself, so I see where
your coming from. Given distance is relatively short car battery cable, or solid copper rod should be sufficient
i will have a think about the coax idea.

Cheers / Chris

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Hi Bill
The use of coax as cable has merit, as you would have a shield that would work to block any other electromagnetic radiation, therefore isolating
the purpose from the hi fi to gnd itself, and not allowing anything else in. Generally falls under category of being a Faraday shield
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

You would use the central conductor of the coax to access the ground point at your hifi and at the other end your ground post,
and provide a 50 ohm ( 2x 1w 100 ohm in parallel ) resistor to the shield at the ground dirt end soldering from the central conductor
not allowing the shield to touch the ground post at the dirt ground end.

You could approach your local radio station, they may have surplus they wish to sell. RG213 or Belden 9913 which has better construction, both
are known as RG8 would be the minimum diameter to use. Having bought many meters over the years its well worth while shopping around.

As a simple experiment grab a multimeter a glass of water and some salt, measure the resistance both probes in the water, before and after
the salt goes in. such is the improvement just adding salt, and why stadium rock groups ( lets hope they use rock salt :) )will have many bags of salt to assist
ground conduction at concerts.

Cheers / Chris

[BilliumB]

Hi Chris

Your information is really interesting. So, I assume the 50 Ohm loading on the ground / earth end is to more effectively match the characteristic impedance of the cable and minimise reflections? This would be more effective than simply connecting core and screen together at the ground / earth end as had previously been recommended to me, I suppose.

Moving on to the most effective ground connection for such a coax earth, what are your thoughts? Clearly it's going to be important that it doesn't act as an rf detector!

One option I've been considering is a stainless steel plate dropped down in my water well (which I would expect to be fairly quiet from an rf point of view). I have not yet got around to considering the best termination method - clearly, wouldn't want water working its way up the coax and mucking up the impedance.

What do you think?

Cheers. Bill

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Hi Bill
Yes terminating the cable in its characteristic impedance of 50 ohms forces the cable to behave as a transmission line over its length.

The most effective ground connection is one that gets sufficiently deep, and where depth is unobtainable that the immediate surrounding ground
area to the stainless steel fixture has treatment of GEM or such material. So going down as deep as you can then treat the bottom of that hole
It would be wise to have a pointed end going into the ground so that you can get a little more depth.

The well idea sounds a bit tricky, as you are possibly accessing water at the bottom, rather than soil.

Have you a camera to show some images of the two sites ?

Cheers / Chris

[BilliumB]

Hi Chris

So I guess water wouldn't work, unless I put loads of salt into it?

Is the depth of the spike so critical for higher frequency signals? (I have seen people recommend a chrome wallpaper scraper for this sort of earth, and that would only be in the ground a few inches.)

Also what sort of material is likely to be best for the coax spike - I'm really concerned about oxidation / tarnishing that might lead to it acting as some sort of rf detector.


Not there at the moment, so can't take pictures, but will do when I get the opportunity.

Cheers. Bill

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Hi Chris

So I guess water wouldn't work, unless I put loads of salt into it?

Is the depth of the spike so critical for higher frequency signals? (I have seen people recommend a chrome wallpaper scraper for this sort of earth, and that would only be in the ground a few inches.)

Also what sort of material is likely to be best for the coax spike - I'm really concerned about oxidation / tarnishing that might lead to it acting as some sort of rf detector.


Not there at the moment, so can't take pictures, but will do when I get the opportunity.

Cheers. Bill

Hi Bill
Using stainless steel is the best, as it generally will last the longest.
but see below for other suggestion

With separately earthing your hi fi, you would be supplementing
not replacing existing household wiring. and if there is any departure from this
please consult your local electrician. As there is a lot more to
house wiring than just hifi ( even though we know its the most important :) )

The depth is critical as driving a longer rod deeper
into the earth, decreases its resistance. In general, doubling
the rod length reduces resistance by about 40 percent.

For example, a rod driven 4 ft down has a resistance
of about 50 Ω. a rod 8ft down reduces this 40 per cent more.

other factors are temperature- a colder soil temperature
adds resistance.

treating the hole with salt or GEM improves conduction
into the soil, which is what you are achieving. Avoid
sandy soil as your location

If you are choosing coax to do this with as a result of its
transmission line properties and soldering a resistor at its end,
the cable must be of suitable diameter to be the same or
larger than household wiring - hence RG8 is recommended
as minimum coax type. Secondly coax like this is fairly rigid
and gets more rigid as diameter increases much to the
annoyance of RF engineers, but herein an advantage

I am thinking if you use say 4, 2 metre threaded rods ideally
stainless steel with pointed ends, drive these into the ground as deep as
you can, ie have an existing trench 1.5 meters then drive the rods in further.
Arrange rods 2 feet apart in a line.

Obtain some tubular perspex say 30cm that is slipped over, and
back for the moment from the end of the coax but not too tight
At each top of the rods arrange two nuts either side of a metal washer
that can be soldered to, but if you can obtain a plumbers soldering iron
this will assist to solder wires ideally wrapped around the threaded section
and soldered, this will need to be done on a bench using protective gloves

then lead that wiring of suitable dimension back to the central wire of the RG8,
solder that wiring around the RG8 central wire prior to finishing off solder a 50 ohm
resistor back to the coax outer shield. Use cable ties to attach everything firmly

So strip back the coax exposing the central conductor at least 10 cm to fit
each of the wires leading from the posts. each connecting wire due to the 2 feet
apart are going to be longer than each other, but of no huge concern,
If you can arrange wire lengths more equally, do so.

So 4 connecting wires are soldered to the central coax + the 50 ohm resistor.
Now slip the perspex over the lot, and fill any gaps with suitable filler.
carefully position the coax in the trench so none of the wire or small rod lengths
can be broken

Without connecting to your hifi ground, test each post has 0.00 ohms leading back
to the coax. Once you have tested this, fill the trench with GEM or rock salt.
Connect the coax central wire at the other end to the point you are arranging as your hifi earth.

and let us all know how it goes.


Cheers / Chris

[BilliumB]

Hi Chris

All makes sense so far, however from my research the recommendation always seems to be to keeps spikes at least 2 times spike length apart to minimise interaction of fields and hence reduce impedance as much as possible. Sometimes you see a 'crows foot' layout mentioned, but maybe this is more about very high voltages associated with lightning (although I suppose there are very high frequencies associated with the very fast rise times with lightning also).

What do you think, is it more important to have the spikes closer together so that the connecting wires are not seen as high impedance to higher frequencies? Should I think about connecting the spikes together with something other than simple wire? Perhaps flat strip, braid, coax?

Cheers. Bill

[Jimbo]

Extreme stuff gentlemen :eek:

[Sovereign]

Extreme stuff gentlemen :eek:

I just love the fact that Bill has a three ton digger and plans to use it for his mains upgrade, thats my kind of guy!
And I thought my mains instal was OTT. :stalks:

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Hi Chris

All makes sense so far, however from my research the recommendation always seems to be to keeps spikes at least 2 times spike length apart to minimise interaction of fields and hence reduce impedance as much as possible. Sometimes you see a 'crows foot' layout mentioned, but maybe this is more about very high voltages associated with lightning (although I suppose there are very high frequencies associated with the very fast rise times with lightning also).

What do you think, is it more important to have the spikes closer together so that the connecting wires are not seen as high impedance to higher frequencies? Should I think about connecting the spikes together with something other than simple wire? Perhaps flat strip, braid, coax?

Cheers. Bill

Hi Bill
The rationale behind 2 feet length is to have close coupling from stakes back to the coax.
Yes braid or flat strip would be good.

You could use further lengths of coax to couple if spacing was 2 x spike length, loss then would be negligible from each post.
I have a good RF reference book, so will refer to that to advise about terminating each.


Cheers / Chris

[BilliumB]

Thanks Chris, I'm sure from my rf experience (many, many years ago) that correct termination is going to be critical. I don't suppose 'welding' as discussed earlier is going to be possible with the coax.

What do you think about ALSO bonding this earthing setup together with normal 16mm2 earth cable and back to the consumer unit? Basically a parallel dc and high frequency setup using the same set of spikes. (So I'd link everything together and back to the kit signal earth using the thick coax setup, AND back through the consumer unit). My guess is that this is what my electrician will want to do as I think regs require all earths to be bonded together.

Would this simply create a big earth loop problem?

Or would a separate set of spikes in a different location connected to the consumer unit be a better option? At the moment I've just got a single spike connected to the consumer unit.

Cheers. Bill

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Hi Bill

Yes you will need to bond each at the spike end, it should not create any earth loop, rather should be a star earth which is always good. Hifi on one leg and household on the other
both ending at the same spot.

Cheers / Chris