Speaker Cables

[raygreen]

I may need to buy some new and longer speaker cables in order to re-arrange the room in order that i can attach my computer.

I know all cables can make a difference to the sound produced. My question is how could different cables sound different through my Mission 751's (Denon PMA-720AE amp). Currently I am using QED bi-wire - only because the wire came with the speakers (I don't know too much about how this influences the sound I hear). There is a lot of choice out there and could I consider something better without spending a fortune?

[brian2957]

This is very good for the price http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Talk-Cable-3-speaker-cable-New-WHF-5-star-product-/321618109356?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item4ae1eee3ac

[raygreen]

This is very good for the price http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Talk-Cable-3-speaker-cable-New-WHF-5-star-product-/321618109356?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item4ae1eee3ac

Would you double this up and bi-wire? Does bi-wiring make a significant difference?

In what way would this sound differently to the QED cable?

[Macca]

Bi-wiring either makes no difference or the tiniest of differences so I would advise not to bother unless you particularly want to experiment.

I've found that the influence of speaker cables or interconnects will vary from system to system i.e their sound is dependant on the properties of the equipment they are connecting. They cannot be judged or rated in isolation. So there are two solutions which are
a) find someone using the same amp and speakers as you and use the same cable as they do or
b) experiment by trying several different speaker cables until you find one that does what you want. Buy mail order set lengths and you can always return them if they don't work out.

[brian2957]

Never owned the QED cable or biwired speakers so can't really help there . I have heard Talk 3 in a couple of systems and it sounded pretty good in them all . Martin's correct when he says that cables can sound different in different systems though and his suggestion to buy on line and return if not suitable is a valid one .
The only way to test a cable properly is in ones own system .

[Reffc]

Would you double this up and bi-wire? Does bi-wiring make a significant difference?

In what way would this sound differently to the QED cable?

No (imho); except to your wallet and to the person selling you the cables.

What matters is loop resistance. Keep this within 5% or less of the speakers minimum impedance (which for most domestic runs using 1.5mm2 section cable it will be, with a 6 Ohm nominal speaker load).

Single wiring offers technically lower crossover distortion due to electrical damping effects but it's so slight as to be negligible as an advantage. Point is, there's no real disadvantage. Now bi-amping, that's a different kettle of sardines....

[matador]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Belden-5000UE-Audio-hifi-Speaker-Cable-/380983447516 - great proffesional cable that sounds amazing for its price.

[roob]

I use this now.
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46_21&products_id=456&zenid=n0gkaj684hvkp3v739bnu8nad6

[raygreen]

I use this now.
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46_21&products_id=456&zenid=n0gkaj684hvkp3v739bnu8nad6

Thanks Andrew but a lot more than I would be looking to pay for cables Brian's 'Talk' cable sounds pretty good for the money. I'm looking to move my amp, CD, DAC next to my computer which would mean my speakers being at the opposite end of the room. I have worked out that one cable may need to be as 11 or 12 metres (so 2x 12m to keep things even). I may need a re-think!! Is there any limit on speaker cable length regarding audio quality?

[roob]

Thanks Andrew but a lot more than I would be looking to pay for cables Brian's 'Talk' cable sounds pretty good for the money. I'm looking to move my amp, CD, DAC next to my computer which would mean my speakers being at the opposite end of the room. I have worked out that one cable may need to be as 11 or 12 metres (so 2x 12m to keep things even). I may need a re-think!! Is there any limit on speaker cable length regarding audio quality?
£120 FOR 2X12metre runs is pretty good value I doubt you will get better quality any cheaper from the big hifi brands.

[struth]

Thanks Andrew but a lot more than I would be looking to pay for cables Brian's 'Talk' cable sounds pretty good for the money. I'm looking to move my amp, CD, DAC next to my computer which would mean my speakers being at the opposite end of the room. I have worked out that one cable may need to be as 11 or 12 metres (so 2x 12m to keep things even). I may need a re-think!! Is there any limit on speaker cable length regarding audio quality?


It kinda depends on your system and cables used, but usually the shorter the better

[Reffc]

Thanks Andrew but a lot more than I would be looking to pay for cables Brian's 'Talk' cable sounds pretty good for the money. I'm looking to move my amp, CD, DAC next to my computer which would mean my speakers being at the opposite end of the room. I have worked out that one cable may need to be as 11 or 12 metres (so 2x 12m to keep things even). I may need a re-think!! Is there any limit on speaker cable length regarding audio quality?

See post #6

[raygreen]

No (imho); except to your wallet and to the person selling you the cables.

What matters is loop resistance. Keep this within 5% or less of the speakers minimum impedance (which for most domestic runs using 1.5mm2 section cable it will be, with a 6 Ohm nominal speaker load).

Single wiring offers technically lower crossover distortion due to electrical damping effects but it's so slight as to be negligible as an advantage. Point is, there's no real disadvantage. Now bi-amping, that's a different kettle of sardines....

I will have to fathom this one out...

[Reffc]

If you can confirm the gauge (diameter) of the cable cores you use, I can supply you with the lengths you can get away with, without resorting to larger diameters. I'd need to know what speakers you use and their stated impedance.

[raygreen]

If you can confirm the gauge (diameter) of the cable cores you use, I can supply you with the lengths you can get away with, without resorting to larger diameters. I'd need to know what speakers you use and their stated impedance.

Thanks Paul. my Mission 751's are 6ohms. I have also found this link and Table 2 shows lengths at various cable thicknesses. http://trade.connectedhometechnology.com/article/what-you-need-know-about-speaker-wiring. Is there a formula to work out loop resistance?

Currently I have QED Bi-wire and have used Cambridge Audio Symphony 400 in the past (not sure how these compare in quality)..... but if for example I used QED original (dia 2.5mm) table 2 in the link suggests I could go up to 30m. How does the impedance of the speaker affect this?

Not sure what diameter Cable Talk 3 is mentioned by Brian. There is also a brand called Atlas and their 'Equator' cable which sounds pretty good at £6 per metre. I think this is 2mm.
http://www.decoaudio.com/deco_audio_loudspeaker_cables.html

[Reffc]

Thanks Paul. my Mission 751's are 6ohms. I have also found this link and Table 2 shows lengths at various cable thicknesses. http://trade.connectedhometechnology.com/article/what-you-need-know-about-speaker-wiring. Is there a formula to work out loop resistance?

Currently I have QED Bi-wire and have used Cambridge Audio Symphony 400 in the past (not sure how these compare in quality)..... but if for example I used QED original (dia 2.5mm) table 2 in the link suggests I could go up to 30m. How does the impedance of the speaker affect this?

Not sure what diameter Cable Talk 3 is mentioned by Brian. There is also a brand called Atlas and their 'Equator' cable which sounds pretty good at £6 per metre. I think this is 2mm.
http://www.decoaudio.com/deco_audio_loudspeaker_cables.html

All you're trying to ensure, partly to keep damping factors high and losses low, is to have total speaker cable resistance (and many forget this is the positive run PLUS the negative run for the circuit = twice the distance of the cable from amp to speakers) kept to lower than 5% of minimum, or at least nominal speaker impedance.

Using 6 Ohms as an example....target cable impedance is 5% of 6 Ohms = 0.3 Ohms

If the cable is 14 gauge (1.6mm diameter or 2mm2 cross sectional area), then this if copper is roughly 8 ohms/Km DC resistance = 0.008Ohms/m, so total (or "Loop") resistance of 0.3 ohms = 37.5m length, meaning the speaker to amp distance should be a maximum of half this or around 18.5m.

You can see that for a 6 Ohm load, that for most purposes a 1mm to 1.5mm diameter core is fine for most domestic lengths. However, we've only dealt with DC resistance, to which must be added reactive impedance which is a product of cable length, cable capacitance and cable inductance as inductive and capacitative reactive impedance losses. If not known, then for most normal cable geometries (ie twisted pairs), allowing around 0.1 Ohms is usually ok providing that the cable isn't overly high in capacitance. Therefore our 18.5m run is reduced to something like a 12m run, still plenty.

There's little need to go beyond a 1.5mm diameter cable core for most speakers and for most typical domestic lengths. It's really only once you get to speakers with say a minimum impedance of 3 ohms in the bass and say 5m per side cable runs that you have to consider 10 or 12 gauge cable (2 to 2.5mm diameter) cores.

There is another fly in the ointment though, and that's the speaker crossover. For even simple first order crossovers, when considering damping factors, the low frequency series inductor DCR (Direct Current equivalent Resistance) is additive to the total load that the amp "sees" so the resistance of this should be considered too.

Net result is that far from losing sleep over it, any speaker cable of 1.5mm core diameter is likely to be fine for most domestic situations; 2mm even better. There's no real technical argument for going to 4mm cores. I've seen 6 Gauge cable used with speakers of 6 Ohms minimum impedance at 2m per side, which is total overkill and a waste of cash really.

[Valvebloke]

Thanks Andrew but a lot more than I would be looking to pay for cables Brian's 'Talk' cable sounds pretty good for the money ...

Have I missed something ? As Andrew says, the Mark Grants would be £120 plus £5 delivery and you get the plugs fitted for that. The Talk 3 would be £96 for the raw cable (2x12m at £4/m) and someone would then have to buy and fit the plugs. Deco offer to do that for £40 which seems perfectly reasonable for 8 plugs. But that would take the Talk 3 up to £136 i.e. pricier than the Mark Grants. Very much the same ball-park though.

VB

[raygreen]

Paul...Phew!!! I was with you at the start and all was going well, headed into the forest somewhere in the middle and got lost but came out at the end understanding where I was but not really knowing how I got there. Thank you though Paul for the explanation - very helpful! I do know now that 12m at 1.5mm (2mm better) will do the job.

Mathematics and physics was never one of my strong subjects :mental:

[raygreen]

Has anybody heard of this German manufacturer. This 2.5mm cable sounds worth a try at the price.

http://www.teufelaudio.co.uk/accessories/speaker-cable-2.5mm2-p14081.html

[awkwardbydesign]

Has anybody heard of this German manufacturer. This 2.5mm cable sounds worth a try at the price.

http://www.teufelaudio.co.uk/accessories/speaker-cable-2.5mm2-p14081.html

Looks just like QED 79 strand, which is also 2.5mm.
That's weird; when I click on different lengths of the Teufel cable, 15m is dearer than 30m! Hmm.

[raygreen]

Looks just like QED 79 strand, which is also 2.5mm.
That's weird; when I click on different lengths of the Teufel cable, 15m is dearer than 30m! Hmm.

I noticed that - might check out with 30m for £5.99 (but minimum order is £50)