Only in America! Toddler Shoots Mother Dead in Supermarket.

[walpurgis]

Apparently and tragically, a two year old has shot its mother dead after getting hands on a loaded gun in a handbag during a shopping expedition. How nuts (and horrible) is that? The victim, sadly, is probably to blame. A loaded gun presumably cocked and with safety off and within reach of a small child. That's crazy. The gun had to be ready to fire, a two year old would almost certainly not know how to click the 'safety' off or have the strength to cock the weapon, let alone operate a single action type. What a stupid and obviously sad thing!!!

[Ninanina]

Apparently and tragically, a two year old has shot its mother dead after getting hands on a loaded gun in a handbag during a shopping expedition. How nuts (and horrible) is that? The victim, sadly, is probably to blame. A loaded gun presumably cocked and with safety off and within reach of a small child. That's crazy. The gun had to be ready to fire, a two year old would almost certainly not know how to click the 'safety' off or have the strength to cock the weapon, let alone operate a single action type. What a stupid and obviously sad thing!!!
That is very sad indeed....:(

[southall-1998]

Typical America :rolleyes:

S.

[walpurgis]

Typical America :rolleyes:

S.

So it seems. Useless gun laws. Not that the UK gun regs are working these days. Anybody caught with a gun should have it used on them (same with knives).

[Ninanina]

Anybody caught with a gun should have it used on them (same with knives).

I agree totally...;)

[Stratmangler]

Apparently and tragically, a two year old has shot its mother dead after getting hands on a loaded gun in a handbag during a shopping expedition. How nuts (and horrible) is that? The victim, sadly, is probably to blame. A loaded gun presumably cocked and with safety off and within reach of a small child. That's crazy. The gun had to be ready to fire, a two year old would almost certainly not know how to click the 'safety' off or have the strength to cock the weapon, let alone operate a single action type. What a stupid and obviously sad thing!!!

The second amendment has been the cause and justification of a lot of indiscriminate killing over the years, and I don't suppose this incident will change things one bit!
This incident is sad, but the attitudes towards gun ownership in the USA will not change because of it.

[Audio Advent]

So it seems. Useless gun laws. Not that the UK gun regs are working these days. Anybody caught with a gun should have it used on them (same with knives).

Uh? I guess that would apply to farmers and hunters, Prince Harry et al too? Or only unlicenced guns? Capital punishment for not having the right licence is probably the most extreme "bring back hanging" opinion I've heard in a long while. If incorrect licencing is that bad we should also apply capital punishment for car licencing, alchohol licencing, dog breeding etc etc... Fill in the form wrongly or let it expire for a few days.. Bang Bang! Won't be making that mistake again!

I'm only teasing but I do believe in a right to trial before ANY punishment.

e.g. I know someone who was thrown in a cell over night after walking home from a job working as a chippy (event carpenter) and still had his multi-tool with knife still in his trouser pocket after having used it at work. Was stop and searched on his way home, whilst still dressed in work gear and with other work tools in his bag. No charges in the end but thrown in a cell over night for "carrying a knife", released at 5am, back on site where he would be using his knife again at 8am. Not aware that simply carrying a knife is a crime at all, only the intent to use it in a criminal way for which there needs to be reasonable suspicion. I imagine the police were using it as a way of massaging their anti-knife crime figures, perhaps even deliberately arresting young white men to make their figures look a little less racially slanted towards young black men (there was controversy before about London police doing that for stop and search figures, just doing random stop and search on middle-class, middle-aged white people on high streets masked as some kind of street safety thing with everyone very compliant of course).

[Audio Advent]

The gun laws are crazy enough but what is more astounding is the attitude that one is safer by carrying one..

[Anthony K]

Poor child who is gonna explain this when they get older

[jandl100]

The gun laws are crazy enough but what is more astounding is the attitude that one is safer by carrying one..

Yep - I wonder what proportion of the gun-toters actually encounter a situation where they would want to use it? Tiny, I am sure.
But it's one of those "rights" that that freedom loving nation clings to.

I met an American guy who was very proud that he was the first on his block to own a submachinegun as a self defence weapon. :mental:

[synsei]

There'll be an NRA rally in the tots home town shortly because that's how they roll.

I used to get worked up over this sort of incident but now I see it as just another tragic symptom of the United States crazy 'constitooshun' enshrined gun laws...

[Gazjam]

So it seems. Useless gun laws. Not that the UK gun regs are working these days. Anybody caught with a gun should have it used on them (same with knives).

Well I guess that's what happened to the Mother...?
:scratch:

America...*sigh* the land of the free.

Guns are big business. What's worse is that nothing will change that, not even a tragedy like this.
NRA lobbying to Congress, Defence contracts, Arms industry...

Who's side is American Government actually on?
It's people? The Authorities?
* Recently in the news....
Cops shooting unarmed black kids
Cops choking a man to death (illegally) and not being held properly accountable

* Historically...and ongoing
America arming foreign "freedom fighters", then fighting against them when they are then deemed terrorists?
Wonder if the Taliban still have the receipts, get their money back?

Its all in the spin folks.

With a complicit media, Fox News and CNN over there and BBC over here...selective D-Notices for, uhm, sensitive "national Security" reasons...its a bad situation.
What of the story of the "alleged" Westminster based paedo ring in the 1980s?
Records of the time have been lost and destroyed.
Important story, why aren't we hearing more about it?!

Politics, Politics, Politics.
What a tangled web they weave.

Ban guns in America? Not a chance unfortunately.

[Macca]

Apparently and tragically, a two year old has shot its mother dead after getting hands on a loaded gun in a handbag during a shopping expedition. How nuts (and horrible) is that? The victim, sadly, is probably to blame. A loaded gun presumably cocked and with safety off and within reach of a small child. That's crazy. The gun had to be ready to fire, a two year old would almost certainly not know how to click the 'safety' off or have the strength to cock the weapon, let alone operate a single action type. What a stupid and obviously sad thing!!!

Doesn't say what the pistol was, but almost bound to be an automatic. Would still have to have a round up the spout though and as you say the safety would have to be off or taken off by the child but the latter is not impossible and could happen accidentally as he was handling the weapon. I wonder why the woman felt the need to carry a concealed weapon in Idaho of all places. Not exactly crime central.

[Mr Kipling]

Sad, yet also mad. But that's how things are. And it will never ever ever change, simply because the gun lobby have too much power and control over government. It's really quite scary to look into the control that business lobbies have over government.

[Macca]

We've been over this ground before on other threads but it's a mistake to assume that the firearms laws in America are down to big business. Plenty of individual Americans take their right to bear arms very seriously.

Also it is interesting to note that States/areas that have severe restrictions on firearm ownership have more gun-related crime than those that have fewer restrictions. This is because criminals will always be able to aquire a firearm and are safe in the knowledge that their intended victim/target will not also be armed.

Given that we cannot turn back the clock and un-invent these weapons I think that the burden of the argument still rests with those who wish to ban law-abiding people from owning them. Either we have a Continental system where everything is considered illegal unless otherwise specified or the English common-law system where everything is assumed legal unless otherwise specified. If you are going to make something illegal then you need a damn good reason for so limiting the individual's freedom of options. To my mind there is no convincing case to make ownership of firearms illegal, oddball incidents like this do nothing to change my opinion on that.

[StanleyB]

Whilst it is important to consider the gun laws in the US as a cause of numerous shooting fatalities, equally important is the design of the safety mechanism that protects against accidental discharge. Not all handguns have a safety catch, whilst other have a catch that can be left disengaged. It's not the first time that a young kid managed to fire a gun accidentally. Not so long ago a three year old managed to shoot his mother dead in the US after the mother had put the gun down on a table and the kid grabbed it. If these guns were that easy to fire, then the safety catch must have been off or not present on that model handgun.

[Gazjam]

We've been over this ground before on other threads but it's a mistake to assume that the firearms laws in America are down to big business. Plenty of individual Americans take their right to bear arms very seriously.

Also it is interesting to note that States/areas that have severe restrictions on firearm ownership have more gun-related crime than those that have fewer restrictions. This is because criminals will always be able to aquire a firearm and are safe in the knowledge that their intended victim/target will not also be armed.

Given that we cannot turn back the clock and un-invent these weapons I think that the burden of the argument still rests with those who wish to ban law-abiding people from owning them. Either we have a Continental system where everything is considered illegal unless otherwise specified or the English common-law system where everything is assumed legal unless otherwise specified. If you are going to make something illegal then you need a damn good reason for so limiting the individual's freedom of options. To my mind there is no convincing case to make ownership of firearms illegal, oddball incidents like this do nothing to change my opinion on that.

Its the fact Martin that when a tradgedy like this occurs, theres no real push to change law.
No matter how many times it happens.

Have to ask why...the Government looking out for its Citizens rights? :scratch:

[Macca]

Its the fact Martin that when a tradgedy like this occurs, theres no real push to change law.
No matter how many times it happens.

Have to ask why...the Government looking out for its Citizens rights? :scratch:

Well there is a huge and vocal 'anti-gun' lobby in the USA who are constantly pushing to change the law i.e amend the Constitution. From memory that requires a two thirds majority in both houses so not easy to do.

My experience has been that ordinary Americans are polarised on the issue, either wanting no licenced firearms at all or complete freedom to own. There is no middle ground.

Then there is the wider philosophical argument of preserving individual freedoms as I touched on in my previous post. A criminal does not care that it is illegal for him to own a firearm as he already breaks the law, and regardless of the strictures put in place weapons are simply too ubiquitous to prevent a black market existing.

Then there is the practical implication of the ban. If the U.S moved to similar firearm laws as we have in the UK that would mean an awful lot of weapons to collect and destroy. Disarming many of the owners would not be an easy task, it would take years, cost billions and there would be more than a few shoot-outs and deaths, both civilian and law-enforcement as a result. You might argue that the current system is broke but in this case fixing it would make matters worse.

[walpurgis]

I have to admit. If I lived in America, depending on where, I might be inclined to carry a firearm myself. But then, I'm no loony or careless and I am trained in the safe use of firearms (also a twice qualified military marksman, without having been in the forces. Work that one out). I personally like using a gun. I just don't like other people having one near me.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Its the fact Martin that when a tradgedy like this occurs, theres no real push to change law.
No matter how many times it happens.

Have to ask why...the Government looking out for its Citizens rights? :scratch:


Anticipated earnings from guns and ammunition of $16 billion http://www.ibisworld.com/media/2013/12/03/industry-trends-guns-ammunition-tanks-armored-vehicle-manufacturing/
and gun lobbyists very active donating to US Senators who say No to gun control reform http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/18/pro-gun-groups-donated-senators

This is why they are not looking after citizens, its a very big money making business. If asked of course their reply would be that they are looking after their citizens by promoting and using more and more guns,
its madness on a massive scale. The key i think is measure to stop the manufacture of bullets, guns can then be welded together to make something useful like a speaker stand.

[awkwardbydesign]

, guns can then be welded together to make something useful like a speaker stand.
Already filled with lead?

[Mr Kipling]

What became of Obama's promise of change after the last massacre? Absolutely nothing. And why do you think? He can promise all he wants but if the Senate doesn't vote on it because they're lobbied not to, nothing changes.

[Macca]

Your assuming a change to the status quo would be desirable. Many Americans would disagree. Yes it all seems a bit crazy looked at from the perspective of the over-controlled situation we have here in the UK. That doesn't mean it is, in practice, crazy.

A country that had a complete ban on automotive vehicles might look at the UK and say 'those cars kill 3000 people a year why don't they ban them? They are crazy and/or cars are big business.'

[Mr Kipling]

What really gets me is there is no real option for change, because of vested interests.

[struth]

It's became fashionable for those on both sides of the debate to blame gun violence on whatever they can that won't involve them having to change their behaviour. Pro-gun people blame video games, Hollywood and the mentally unstable. Anti-gun people blame gun sellers, gun manufacturers and the National Rifle Association. It's like they're saying, "These things are separate from me and lower than I am, so I am rewarded for my disgust with a sense of superiority."

In truth, it is all these things. It is too easy to buy a gun, period. You could go to a gun show tomorrow and buy a pistol from a private seller, legally, without ever showing ID. You needn't have a licence and there isn't a national registry. There are so many guns on the streets (roughly 270 million) that Mexicans come here to buy them, then return home to shoot each other for the right to run drugs back across the border. Meanwhile, the media traffics in violent imagery and combativeness. You talk about mental illness, but guns aren't used solely by people with lower than average sanity ratings – there's a plain old dull acceptance that guns are a part of normal life

Each state has its own laws – DC, for example, outlawed all guns for many years, whereas Kentucky will loan you one at the airport if you forget to pick one up at Walmart. What happens is that all these dumb issues like guns in churches become proxy battles in the larger pro- versus anti-gun fight. It pains me to report that despite Boston, Newtown, Aurora and Oak Creek, there won't be any major change in the nation's gun laws. The anti-gun lobby wanted, at the very least, expanded background checks and a limit on magazine sizes, but nothing is going to pass, all of the bills have stalled. Lots of people will still die in terrible ways, in places they should never have been in danger of dying in.

In the UK, we can’t legally carry guns, so there's barely any gun crime. In the US, you can and, in many cases, are encouraged to carry guns, so there's loads of gun crime. That doesn't mean Americans are more violent than other people; the're just better shots. America is actually the most trigger-happy developed country in the world by a stratospherically depressing amount. But Americans don't like to compare themselves negatively to other countries, so that argument is generally swept under the carpet, along with Michael Bay and they're history of systematically slaughtering America's indigenous people. A politician will never start a sentence with, "In Europe..." Americans only ever compare themselves to Canada, and that is only to make fun of them. the pro-gun argument tends to go something like this: America is the greatest country ever in the history of the Earth and we've had the same basic set of rules for like, 250 years, so there's no need to go mucking about with things. The Constitution says we can have guns, the Supreme Court agrees and we're just gonna keep on shooting each other until we run out of bullets. This doesn't look like happening any time soon, despite the fact there are about 11,000 gun murders in the US every year.



Oh, and Happy New Year when it comes.

[synsei]

It's became fashionable for those on both sides of the debate to blame gun violence on whatever they can that won't involve them having to change their behaviour. Pro-gun people blame video games, Hollywood and the mentally unstable. Anti-gun people blame gun sellers, gun manufacturers and the National Rifle Association. It's like they're saying, "These things are separate from me and lower than I am, so I am rewarded for my disgust with a sense of superiority."

In truth, it is all these things. It is too easy to buy a gun, period. You could go to a gun show tomorrow and buy a pistol from a private seller, legally, without ever showing ID. You needn't have a licence and there isn't a national registry. There are so many guns on the streets (roughly 270 million) that Mexicans come here to buy them, then return home to shoot each other for the right to run drugs back across the border. Meanwhile, the media traffics in violent imagery and combativeness. You talk about mental illness, but guns aren't used solely by people with lower than average sanity ratings – there's a plain old dull acceptance that guns are a part of normal life

Each state has its own laws – DC, for example, outlawed all guns for many years, whereas Kentucky will loan you one at the airport if you forget to pick one up at Walmart. What happens is that all these dumb issues like guns in churches become proxy battles in the larger pro- versus anti-gun fight. It pains me to report that despite Boston, Newtown, Aurora and Oak Creek, there won't be any major change in the nation's gun laws. The anti-gun lobby wanted, at the very least, expanded background checks and a limit on magazine sizes, but nothing is going to pass, all of the bills have stalled. Lots of people will still die in terrible ways, in places they should never have been in danger of dying in.

In the UK, we can’t legally carry guns, so there's barely any gun crime. In the US, you can and, in many cases, are encouraged to carry guns, so there's loads of gun crime. That doesn't mean Americans are more violent than other people; the're just better shots. America is actually the most trigger-happy developed country in the world by a stratospherically depressing amount. But Americans don't like to compare themselves negatively to other countries, so that argument is generally swept under the carpet, along with Michael Bay and they're history of systematically slaughtering America's indigenous people. A politician will never start a sentence with, "In Europe..." Americans only ever compare themselves to Canada, and that is only to make fun of them. the pro-gun argument tends to go something like this: America is the greatest country ever in the history of the Earth and we've had the same basic set of rules for like, 250 years, so there's no need to go mucking about with things. The Constitution says we can have guns, the Supreme Court agrees and we're just gonna keep on shooting each other until we run out of bullets. This doesn't look like happening any time soon, despite the fact there are about 11,000 gun murders in the US every year.



Oh, and Happy New Year when it comes.

Succinct and to the point Grant :clap:

Of course the logical conclusion is that eventually there will be no one left to shoot at, in which case I want Aspen... :D

[walpurgis]

Of course the logical conclusion is that eventually there will be no one left to shoot at, in which case I want Aspen... :D

'I'll take Manhattan'

And of course a big 50 cal. sniper's rifle in case there is somebody left and then I can stop them at a mile distance! ;)

Happy New Year Dave and to Jo. :)



(I'd like to be in my local pub for the new year celebrations, but I'm just not up to it at the mo. Old age and a touch of the lurgie I'm afraid)

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Already filled with lead?

Lets make the speaker stands with lead an option:D